232 Replies to “Brutality”

  1. The notion that you cannot help someone else unless you are an ‘expert’ in that field is pernicious and untenable…ET
    Agree in principle with this statement, but that can’t apply in a specific extremely unpredictable, sleepy to bizarrely deadly situation like this.
    It was an emergency life or death situation in an instant. Even if I thought I could match him with strength, which I certainly can’t, he has a deadly weapon, can kill in mere seconds. And again.
    I think the truck drive that stopped, went in the bus with others to confront this horrific scene, almost got stabbed, then handed out crow bars and wrenches to men in the crowd; would certainly be no expert so he and the others are the heros to me.

  2. “A can of hairspray & a cigarette lighter could have made an effective weapon against this nutbar. Ditto a nice big book or even a full can of pop.”
    I can’t believe I just read that.

  3. Ok, fine, look, if y’all insist on playing this guessing game, consider the following scenario. The alleged killer has just gotten hopped up on some weird dope, and prances like a tiger. It takes you, what 1,000 milliseconds to react. You then look over. The victim has already been stabbed multiple times. There’s blood spurting all over the place. You look in the killer’s face, and see an absolute, crazed, madman.
    Now what does your limbic system do? ‘Cause unless you’re a trained warrior, you’re not in charge any more ~ that gram of adrenaline your amygdala just dumped into your bloodstream is. Now, right now, no time at all to think about it: do you fight or flee?

  4. Latest allegation from CTV News?
    Get this!!!!!!!!!!!!!
    CANNIBALISM !!!!!!!!!!
    Seems the murdering savage was chewing on the guy he killed!!!!!!!!!!!!

  5. Canadian Observer…
    I’d like to comment about your “untrained” comment, but I can’t yet.
    Perhaps tomorrow…
    When I’m finished with my CCW Instructors Class.
    Last week’s lesson was Use of Force and When/When NOT to draw.
    Take the course and you’ll understand my frustration/annoyance with your comment.
    Most people that CAN afford to get the training and equipment won’t be found riding the bus.

  6. ET:”A young boy killed. Possibly, he could have been saved.”
    I agree ET. I’m no expert in martial arts but witnessed an interview with such an expert. It would appear that in confined spaces (ex. an elevator) no matter how good you are, you are going to get “cut” according to the expert.
    That leaves “Concealed Carry” and I’ve heard all the doubters concerning it’s usefulness in a public location. Strange thing; we don’t seem to hear of bystanders accidentally being shot by CC holders in action. I can’t believe the MSM would miss a chance to blow any incident out of all proportion.
    One of the areas of CC success (where the firearm was discharged) I have read of, is dog attacks. A da med difficult situation in which to avoid hitting a bystander.

  7. Vitruvius,
    “Now, right now, no time at all to think about it: do you fight or flee?”
    It is in poor taste to make the appropriate response, but there is no more apropos way of making the point: “Have a plan to kill everyone you meet”.
    It is a matter of basic situational awareness. Retreat and flee are NOT synonyms.

  9. Tenebris: ““Have a plan to kill everyone you meet”.”
    OK. You just unjwittingly killed a Hell’s Angels hitman who was sent to rub out a thief.
    In addition to spending a few years in the pen, your family is now in mortal danger. I don’t think you thought your brilliant plan through.

  10. There is no mention of passengers sitting behind the two men in question.
    The man sitting in front did the right thing by alerting the bus driver.
    A movie (Zorro, or some such) was playing making noise. The driver and the other passengers would have been unaware. (Ever been on a bus tour?)
    Bus aisles are narrow and they were trying to exit the bus. Women and children were on it so it must have been hectic.
    The man who was the chief witness was the only one at that point who knew the extent of the assault.
    From his description, it is more than likely possible that it was already too late for the victim.
    Once the passengers were out, three men did attempt to see if they could do anything.
    What they witnessed exonerates them from trying to overcome the guy with a can of pop or any other brilliant suggestion made here. Unless you think bus drivers should be armed with tasers!
    With cool heads, the witness, bus driver and transport driver kept the deranged man safely inside the bus.
    All behaved exactly as they should have under the circumstances.
    My sympathies are with the family of the young man who are hopefully not listening to the news.
    There is nothing that justifies the graphic details being played and replayed.
    I am waiting, with great interest, to see the nationality of the attacker, which makes me a racist, I guess.

  11. Beheading, I wonder if Al Queda was involved. Guy was probably trained (brainwashed) by some mulla.

  12. THIS IS AN ISOLATED INCIDENT!! There are very few whackos who would perform such an act. . I fail to see what law or statute could have prevented this tragedy. Even if the crowd could have jumped the assassin, it’s highly unlikely the young lad would have survived. What irks me is why the RCMP didn’t shoot him on the spot?

  13. Every situation is different. Remember, this unfortunate event didn’t happen in a plaza, or a classroom, or a park, where several people can come at dude from different positions. We’re talking a large (according to eyewitnesses) absolutely batshit insane man at the back of a bus — nobody had a clue what was going on in time to prevent it, it was all seen after-the-fact — wielding a bloody, giant bloody hunting knife.
    How wide are the aisles — three feet MAX? How much room for lateral movement do you have in such a situation? Effectively NONE. Zero. So you’ll be heading straight at a guy with a giant hunting knife who’s clearly in a murdering state of mind. What are the (non-cinematic, now) chances you’ll have enough blood left after twenty or thirty seconds to even have a chance to stop the guy?
    I’ll gladly give the benefit of the doubt to multirec, based on his training and the sort of courage you have to have to serve as he has. But for the vast majority of other people — just to narrow the parameters a bit for the sake of discussion — if you’re facing a large guy who’s likely done hard time, who’s insane and having an, ermm, episode, well, let’s put it this way: if dude could kick your ass without using a knife, and if dude can take a real good punch or a kick without being dissuaded or without saying “Ow, that hurt“, your chances of disarming him when he’s wielding a large hunting knife when you’re coming at him down a narrow aisle are close to zero.
    I’ll say it again, there are infinitely more possibilities for a positive outcome if it’s happening in an open area, where different guys can come at dude from different directions, but in an enclosed space with only a narrow aisle for access to dude, who’s waiting on you, if you’re not Anderson Silva or Dan Henderson you’re an underdog times a thousand. Remember, even tough, trained fighters don’t necessarily win fights without taking a few; well, dude had a hunting knife.
    Cops will tell you, too, that crazy people can be crazy strong due to adrenaline dump. I saw an episode of “Cops” a long time ago in which police responded to a call that gunshots had been heard in some low-rent apartment in Philadelphia. These — armed — cops were looking nervously up the stairs when large naked black man came down out of his mind on PCP — he kept yelling “put it in the papers…put it in the papers…” — and these five or six big cops had a really, really hard time physically controlling the guy — they were all hanging off of him and couldn’t bring him down; we’re talking a prolonged, out of breath desperate wrestling match. It went on a long time. Six cops on one, and dude was unarmed.
    If PCP dude had had a large hunting knife, and if these — highly trained — cops, who trained together, and had a whole lobby to work with had been unarmed, it would have been an ugly, bloody outcome.
    Ah well, at least it’s clear why there are so few heroes in situations like the one that happened on the bus: they’re simply not available to the general public — they’re all commenting on blogs.

  14. In defense of another? Attack, of course, to the limits of your ability and courage, whilst leaving open a line of retreat. Retreat only comes into the picture when your position becomes untenable.
    If it be you, avoiding the issue by fleeing may be the wisest option.
    But, late-night quarterbacking brings out my old football injuries, so I’ll close with my condolences to all those distraught by this evil*.
    * in the KJV sense of the term.

  15. It occurs to me, and some people may want to jump on me for pointing this out, but if we are going to try to analyze the situation, which to me implies at least so far that we are trying to determine what we don’t yet know, then in all honesty I have to point out that at this point we know nothing about the victim. That data may not be irrelevant ~ we don’t know yet. In terms of hypothesis, this discussion is running on fumes.

  16. The difficulty with concealed carry is the fact that it most likely would have only increased the death toll. The guy with the knife would have done his dirty work before anyone had opportunity to draw a weapon and order the bad guy to stop. The victim is still dead. If the pistol is discharged successfully the victom and the bad guy are dead and if the weapon is discharged inappropriately a bystander or two or three is also dead.
    Unfortunatly there is no better way than a few good men to grab, disarm and restrain the bad guy. All that being said I’m not sure anyone would have been quick enough to prevent this needless death.
    I know from the incident I recounted in my previous post it took quick reflexes and a team to prevent bloodshed. I saw the raised knife and instinctively grabbed the wrist. Several others saw the knife and me losing the struggle and tackled the bad guy as quick as they could get near the guy.
    I actually felt sorry for the would be slasher when the Mountie smashed the guys face into the hood of the car as he slapped on the handcuffs.

  17. …OK, I clearly need to thump Randy C before I can rest.
    “OK. You just unjwittingly (sic) killed a Hell’s Angels hitman who was sent to rub out a thief.
    In addition to spending a few years in the pen, your family is now in mortal danger. I don’t think you thought your brilliant plan through.”
    Idiot.
    The Roman’s had a saying: “Let justice be done though the heavens fall.”
    Now, this is not precisely correct (because it neglects mercy), but it makes the point: Derivative consequences do not override moral imperatives.

  18. Part of the general new ‘green shift’ trend is anticipation that governments will develop, and the general public will use, much more public transit.
    Even before this terrible incident I had concluded that Canadian society has degenerated too much, with too many dangerous criminals and the dangerously mentally ill roaming free, for me to consider public transit a safe and attractive option.
    On several occasions I have seen young girls fleeing a local light rail transit car because some tough-looking, long-haired, older man will not stop aggressively talking to them.
    Public transit really is a dangerous place to be in Canada.

  19. Well said, EBD at August 1, 2008 12:07 AM
    The ability to maneuver in such a situation is critical. It doesn’t take a martial arts expert or combat vet to recognize this.
    So far it sounds like the victim was dead within seconds and then a bunch of unarmed, shocked bystanders are supposed to attack a cornered, rabid dog?
    I’m surprised at ET’s comments.

  20. I won’t comment any further then to say that I would have intervened, if I had the chance. Obviously the only people who may have any attempt at all, were the nearest seats. Panic and anarchy must have slammed that bus, I can understand. It’s probably a death that couldn’t have been prevented even by a trained professional nearby. Such a waste.
    So tragic for the family as well as a life snuffed out of an innocent young man.

  21. Quite right, Vitruvius. The headless victim is unknown, as is the assailant, however the chain of actual events was IMO reliably told by onlookers: Knife dude sat at the front; then, after a stop, he took his belongings from the overhead storage and moved to the back. That, and their descriptions of the kid’s demeanor — they’d had a smoke with him at a stop — make it highly likely that this is a random attack by someone with mental problems.
    Of course, we’ll have to wait for the official background details from CTV. /:>o>
    The information on both the assailant and the victim is from the two eyewitnesses, who were not only close the event but directly and actively involved in trying to contain the situation, by holding the front door closed, and by boarding the bus at one point, only to…demur.
    Both seemed clear on events and quite eloquent, Vitruvius. They described dude as six feet, two hundred and something — big — and the kid he decapitated as just a kid, more or less. And of course, their reminiscences about knife-dude holding up the severed head and shaking it in their faces made it apparent that knife-dude’s mindset was at the very least a bit…standoffish.
    The location of the event — at the very back of the bus, by the washrooms — was also consistently expressed by both independent witnesses who, neither of whom, I’m guessing, if you saw them interviewed, you would consider girly-men. And by virtue of the fact that they were sort of reliving events as they were describing them, and that their recollections were functionally identical, makes them about as good a source as to events as any follow-up reports will be, including from police.
    Except of course, the identity of the assailant, which will surely be released. Mark my word: mental illness of some kind. The identity of the victim is probably neither here nor there in terms of the killer’s motive, because the assailant was obviously — to use the medical term — absolutely honking batshit.

  22. Roger that EBD, I’m just hunting around the discussion for other
    potentially missed data before I cash in my chips for the night.

  24. CTV has a lot of interviews up. Several things are clear:
    1. The victim could not have been saved even if a trained and armed air-marshal was on the bus. He was likey fatally stabbed within seconds.
    2. Fleeing was the “ONLY” option for the others. There would’ve been many more dead had someone tried to be a hero.
    3. The closed confines, the size of the attacker, and the very large knife made it impossible to do much but flee.
    4. The truck driver, ex-army engineer, and bus driver (and others), did the right thing by confronting the killer once they were armed.
    5. It is miraculous that more weren’t injured or killed.

  25. “Idiot. The Roman’s (sic) had a saying: “Let justice be done though the heavens fall.”
    OK, but you are still getting raped daily in Millhaven while your family is in danger, all because you wanted to save the life of a degenerate thief who provoked the attack and would cut your throat for a dime. No further comment necessary.

  26. Agree Christoph, how cowardly is this? Attack a young man who’s sleeping with earphones on. Makes me wonder how ‘crazy’ this individual is. Murders someone who’s as helpless as a lamb.

  27. I loath that the murder’s name will be the most known, but the victims sadly will soon be forgotten.
    He also didn’t suicide by cop, does make it appear like an isolated bizarre event not a planned one. Hope they have that one locked up real tight and forever.
    Thanks for the link Christoph, think I read this also posted at a site called ‘eject, eject, eject’ I believe.

  28. Hair spray and a lighter,a can of pop,a heavy book,yes, that is the ticket to stopping a large knife wielding lunatic.I am surprised that no one has suggested that a few kind words and a warm hug would have stopped the attack.

  29. Still, the sheepdog disturbs the sheep. He is a constant reminder that there are wolves in the land. They would prefer that he didn’t tell them where to go, or give them traffic tickets, or stand at the ready in our airports in camouflage fatigues holding an M-16. The sheep would much rather have the sheepdog cash in his fangs, spray paint himself white, and go, “Baa.”
    Until the wolf shows up! Then the entire flock tries desperately to hide behind one lonely sheepdog.
    The students, the victims, at Columbine High School were big, tough high school students, and under ordinary circumstances they would not have had the time of day for a police officer. They were not bad kids; they just had nothing to say to a cop. When the school was under attack, however, and SWAT teams were clearing the rooms and hallways, the officers had to physically peel those clinging, sobbing kids off of them. This is how the little lambs feel about their sheepdog when the wolf is at the door.
    Find this most fitting tonight.
    R.I.P. to our yet named young victim, a kid really, who was viciously murdered, may your loved ones find peace and justice and may you rest in peace.

  30. Paul at 12:47. You have things pretty well right. The one thing missing is that the only coward on the bus was toting a bowie knife.

  31. So they’ve identified the victim, but not the crazy f**ker who killed him. I wonder why that is?

  32. Normally, I am not in favour of capital punishment. But I’d make an exception for this guy.

  33. Actually, there is a few on the CBC site, of all places. One guy actually said something along the lines of it was due to social program cutbacks in provinces such as Alberta…….nice….

  34. I tore up my armchair disarming the vilan as I read in here!!!!!
    I hope non of you in here ever experiences an act as this, as most people would react the same as those on the bus, and many would later punish themselves for not being a hero!!!!
    and those who say they would have intervened, I have a $100 bet against that!!!

  36. They know who the killer is and at this point have laid NO charges, not even murder, which people were witness to? Insane.
    We do know who the unfortunate victim of this heinous crime is, an unspeakable atrocity, the likes of horror movies. We can only sit by while the wretch is coddled as per Charter rights and hear all the reasons why he did such a thing. He had to have planned to kill someone, he was armed with a knife, a weapon that kills.
    Like guns, knives kill. We are hearing so much about banning guns and knives but that won’t stop such creeps from getting them.
    People also get whacked out on dope and we’re providing them with the tools to do it, injection sites etc. It’s leading to a sick society following the Leftist ideology.
    Looks like we’re heading down the path of living in a police state with a law Officer on every mode of public transport unless we get tough on crime.

  37. To those accusing the bus passengers of cowardice, two things:
    1. Few weeks ago, teenage thief in alley, holding a knife, tasered by two cops. Teenager accidentally dies. Are the cops also cowards for not attempting to disarm him by hand instead?
    2. The key witness to the bus incident, the guy sitting directly in front of the perp and victim, spent 5 years in the Canadian Forces. Still a coward?

  38. Randy C: OK, but you are still getting raped daily in Millhaven while your family is in danger, all because you wanted to save the life of a degenerate thief who provoked the attack and would cut your throat for a dime. No further comment necessary.
    Randy C, you are merely creating wildly elaborate assumptions to excuse yourself for not helping anyone, anywhere, anytime.

  39. The victim of this horrendous murder is a young man named Tim McLean Jr. from Winnipeg. Apparently his father had to call the RCMP to confirm that the murdered young man was his son. Wouldn’t you think the RCMP would have got in touch with his family first?
    This story is becoming increasingly bizarre.
    So, as Liz J. points out, we now know the identity of the murdered man but NOT the identity of the murderer. What gives? I would have thought knowing who the murderer is would be more important than everyone knowing who the victim is.
    It’s a matter of public importance for the police to identify the murderer. Are they trying to protect him and/or his “protected” minority group? Are they afraid of some kind of backlash–which, BTW, doesn’t happen in Canada.
    If so, I’m sick and tired of the molly-coddling in politically correct Canada of certain individuals because they happen to be from an identifiable, protected minority. NO group should be protected in Canada if an injustice has been perpetrated by an individual belonging to it.
    Justice should be blind; Canadians need to know who this monster is and why he did what he did.

  40. from cbc:
    Police have not confirmed the identity of the man stabbed to death aboard a bus late Wednesday and beheaded, according to witness accounts, but friends said it was Tim McLean Jr., 22, of Winnipeg.
    RCMP announced Friday morning that they’ve charged Vince Weiguang Li, 40, of Edmonton with second-degree murder.

  41. That the murderer’s identity has not been released is outrageous.
    Consider this:
    the poor family of this young man must not only experience this great loss, but they must also endure the fact that he is now a principle character in the media’s current shocker/freak story intended to sell papers and news ad revenue throughout North America.
    The perpetrator,
    he gets a media pass.
    That it is this monster who we’ve decided needs our sensitivity, our protection, our good graces in the public eye,
    says so very much about where we’ve gone as a society.

  42. $1,000,000 bet: If, when the attacker’s identity is finally revealed, one of his personal characteristics happens to be:
    (a) a vaguely Middle Eastern sounding name; and/or
    (b) Islamic faith,
    then he will forever be referred to around these parts as “that crazy Muslim bus-beheader guy (told you so).”
    If, however, the attacker’s personal characteristics do not include either/both of the above, then he will briefly be referred to around these parts simply as “that crazy bus-beheader guy” before he is promptly forgotten and never mentioned again.

  43. My rendition of QE in 1939 Poland:
    “if the guy who shot the jew in the store was a Nazi you all will be talking about this as ‘the scaaary guy with a fascist agenda to wipe out unwanted types, which you’d forever go on about, if he was just another Pole, you’d just think he some crazy killer and never talk about it again.”

  44. Having read all the comments, I must (sadly) concur with QE to this extent: absent a firearm, there’s no way anybody, trained or not, is going to interfere with a knife wielding maniac who’s cutting a guy’s head off in a moving bus.
    I can say flatly that I wouldn’t, not a chance. I can’t go from half asleep to full-on fight ready in zero seconds. Nobody can.
    But I can go from half asleep to SHOOT HIM! in maybe three seconds. That is what makes the pistol a superior weapon for self -defense-. You don’t have to have your blood up to use it. Insert in maniac’s ear, pull trigger, repeat until empty.
    Now, some people up above opined that armed civilians would have only increased the body count, and killing the murderer would be futile because it wouldn’t have saved the kid, and dangerous, and blah blah blah.
    Lemme ask you people, what the hell could possibly be bad about killing a knife wielding maniac in the middle of chopping somebody’s head off? Or even after he’s done? What kind of f-ed up world do you live in?

  45. And QE before you go on with the ‘racist’ charge,
    I suspect most folks weren’t too concerned about the skin color of the perpetrator.
    Whether it be a white radical muslim from Chechnya, who are cool with capturing and killing school children in gymnasiums to fight the “infidels”
    the southeast Asian radical muslims who cut off the heads of christian school girls, for being, well, christian,
    or the radicals assembling in Iraq and Afgh’stn who are fond of beheading on camera to an international audience, proudly showing what radical islamists are capable of, (in particular their penchant for beheading)
    most folks may, just may, be a tad interested in whether this type of BELIEF SYSTEM (which says its OK to behead in the name of allah) may be starting to take hold in Canada.

  46. Witnesses say he was stabbed up to 50 times by a passenger who is in his 40s. [newstalk650.com]
    If this is true, the murderer has probably been in and out of psychiatric institutions for the past twenty years. Records will probably show that mental health practioners have been working with him since his adolescence. Records will probably also indicate that he has a history of refusing to take prescribed medication. Civil liberties and all, you can’t lock him, you can’t force medication on a patient.

  48. biff: most folks may, just may, be a tad interested in whether this type of BELIEF SYSTEM (which says its OK to behead in the name of allah) may be starting to take hold in Canada.
    And yet happening to hold a particular belief system doesn’t mean that all of one’s actions are necessarily motivated by that belief system.
    I’m charging that that distinction is generally lost among commenters here. Were this attacker a practitioner of Islam, I’ve no doubt that his crime would be interpreted by many here as religiously motived (perhaps even warranting a new thread, under the snarky “Religion of Peace” title series), regardless of the veracity of that assumption (see Don Uthole’ @ 11:05PM, and “Christoph’ @ 9:23PM as early examples of such insinuation). Coincidence would instantly, and implacably, become causality.

  50. Perhaps not all notice th post by M Hawkins @9:10 this morning, but those of you continuing on with this Muslim stuff may want to revisit the facts.
    RCMP have charged Vince Weiguang Li with second-degree murder after a 22-year-old man was stabbed and then decapitated in a vicious attack on a Greyhound bus.
    http://news.sympatico.msn.ctv.ca/Victim+of+beheading+on+Greyhound+bus+identified/Home/ContentPosting?isfa=1&newsitemid=CTVNews%2F20080731%2FManitoba_victim_080801&feedname=CTV-TOPSTORIES_V3&show=False&number=0&showbyline=True&subtitle=&detect=&abc=abc&date=True

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