If the federal government allows Washington to proceed with its social experiment, retail marijuana sales in the state could top $1 billion a year, according to the state鈥檚 Office of Financial Management, which studied impacts of I-502 before the Nov. 6 election. … The Liquor Control Board is at least a year away from handing down the rules that will define the new industry…
What do you think the chances are that a bunch of friends and family members of the washington state liquor control board are about to make a pant load of cash? I think potheads in Washington are going to be pining for the good old days when pot was illegal pretty soon.
I’m going to the Seattle area this weekend. I’ll have to watch out for stoned drivers. Along with all the other whackos on the I-5. It’s dangerous out there.
I sure hope they will all be paying their carbon credits for all that CO2.And james,you are so right.When AB privatized,if you couldn’t prove you had donated mucho moola,or were a friend of CINO gubermint,you didn’t get a store.10% of the stores here are owned/operated by whites,the rest Muslims.Yes, they will tolerate booze as long as they are making a buck on it!
Gays, potheads, artists – all these people need government control in their lives to feel legitimate. Losers.
Mike in White Rock:
Based on the driving habits of those in Metro Vancouver, I think that Pot-Impaired Driving is the norm here. 馃檨
With apologies for not watching the all-too-predictable video, will Crowder follow up with a interview of winos on skid row with a view to determining if the de-criminalization of alcohol was a bad idea.
And how about a follow up video with the friends and family of that brave female Mexican mayor who just got murdered for pushing back against the drug lords with a view to determining the effectiveness of the so-called War on Drugs?
Haven’t seen any harm incurred in my social circles from recreational MJ use. Anecdotal for sure, but I was a teenager in the 70’s and many still smoke it.
Most of the danger comes from being forced to access it through the same folks who occupy the underbelly of society.
What does it make you if you insist that Gubment criminalize marijuana while at the same time advocate for more individual freedom and a smaller, less intrusive government?
Wait until they find out its a weed and grows everywhere and anywhere. Tuff to tax homegrown.
Hey doowleb, wait another decade and come back and tell us how many of your friends are dead from cancer.
Well, given Steve’s information, we should also make alcohol, prescription drugs, rock climbing, big gulps illegal since they all can cause great harm.
GM
The truth is that MJ is largely harmless but prohibition kills.
WA and CO have struck a body blow against the War on Drugs. The feds will try to fight back but they are out of money. Uruguay also partially legalized. We are well into the beginning of the end now if Canada would get a federal government with some sane policies in this arena.
I couldn’t give a rat’s *ss about the legalization of marijuana. If you want to smoke the stuff, go nuts.
However, that being said …. I would expect that marijuana smokers be subject to the same restrictions, demonization and bullying that is the norm for tobacco users.
A) Psychiatry is not a science, it’s a psuedo science.
B) even if alcohol is found in a dead vehicle driver’s body it does not prove that the alcohol was the cause of the accident.
Say it together kiddies: Correlation Does Not Prove Causation.
As an addendum, does anyone remember Canadian Ross Rebagliati was disqualified from receiving his Gold Medal in snowboarding at the XVIII Olympic Winter Games in Nagano Japan for smoking marijuana because the Americans claimed it was a performance enhancing drug.
Subsequently, the Americans had a holy-shit-what-are-we-saying moment and Rebagliati had his medal restored.
LAS, it won’t happen because as you see above the Right is totally schizophrenic on the issue. Too many want small government, less regulation, yadda, yadda, But they also want absolute bans on all kinds of things like pot. That’s where they join ranks with the leftist ban-everything progressives.
At some point the Right is going to have to decide whether or not it believes in the full responsibility of the individual. Until it does, it’s going to remain captive of the lefist collectivist morons.
Of course prohibition kills. It puts BC’s largest cash crop exclusively into the hands of criminals. The War on Drugs has reduced the supply and the availability not one iota. And in return for thousands of dead all it has achieved is to drive up the price and hence the crime rate. And artificially create a massive public health problem.
And as for harming others, we punish drunk drivers; there’s no reason we can’t punish pothead drivers.
The thread graphic is somewhat misleading too:
I’d say that the consumption of MJ the day after it’s “legalized” will be the same as the day before. Put another way, I doubt that anyone who wanted to smoke pot has demured due to this dumb-ass-law.
And LAS is certainly right: Prohibition kills: it’s 50,000 now in Mexico, roughly the same as US deaths in the dumb-ass Vietnam war. And all those wasted lives in prison at enormous public expense for this dumb-ass victim-less crime.
For the record I take no drugs except for two cupsa coffee first thing in the morning.
Legalize it all. Government has no business protecting organized crime with stupid, utterly useless, laws.
Ironic that the same folks who claim owning a firearm should be free from regulation also want to jail folks for owning a plant.
Er, james, if doowleb’s friends were smoking pot in the 70’s, wouldn’t many of them be dead of cancer in 10 years time anyway, no matter what they did?
Not advocating for pot here, just for a realistic appreciation of human frailty.
Canada will never, ever legalize marijuana as long as the US continues it’s war or drugs. It would drive a huge wedge between our relations with them.
No matter where one stands on this issue, it isn’t going to happen any time soon.
I would and have hired pot heads over boozers any day of the week. It is relatively harmless and does little in the way of driving impairment. Ever watch potheads play vid games? MJ laws do nothing but ruin peoples lives with a criminal record if caught. It is the biggest sham going these days.
Tax it, regulate it and get on with it I says.
TrueNorthist at November 27, 2012 6:15 PM
“Ironic that the same folks who claim owning a firearm should be free from regulation also want to jail folks for owning a plant.”
Yeah I noticed that…the same element that seeks “gunlaws” and “gun-bans”, actively support legalizing not just MJ but most recreational drugs.
Me I recall taking an indifferent attitude, until one day Charles was in the wire, and I saw one of the cool guys, smoking a joint feeding a 81mm mortar…as he dropped the round down the barrel….the wrong way. Talk about yer bein’ overtaken on the road to Damascus….Ya see I wuz that sorry SOB, who had to write all them letters to the nexta kin…….
An visiting acquaintance tried to light up a joint at chez moi…one day….told him I would shove it up his …. so far he would have to set his nose on fire to light it.
Yeah I know that’s not too original…but it seemed appropriate.
Yeah I’m sorta biased….
sasquatch,
Thanks for bringing a dose of reality to the conversation.
Hilarious Kate. Its like living in this trailer park. At 17:00 the blue smoke rises all over.
@ chg: well said. You are correct the right and theory are hard to tell apart sometimes.
@ Sasquatch: yeah it’s a shame. I treat trauma daily due to misuse of alcohol sometimes involving innocent people due to stupidity and misuse by others. I have to tell families the bad news. I don’t go raging on people who drink wine at Christmas dinner or at a friends BBQ. You just have to deal with the problem: some people are too stupid or too irresponsible to share this planet with and nothing seems to help. But either I believe in freedom or I don’t.
I can see a society coming with many people around us similar to that professor in the video.
Sasquatch….good comment. I recall investigating the murder of a 81 year lady in Alberta who was stabbed 187 times by a punk who was zoned out on pot and was in a killing frenzy. Apparently he didn’t get the memo that pot supposedly caused you to become “mellow”…
@ cgh : You are correct, the left and right are hard to tell apart sometimes. As for the war on drugs, its killing people and causing part of the problem.
(Sorry my phone’s spellcheck went ape, but I think I’ve now discovered why ok sounds so messed up.)
Most of the danger comes from being forced to access it through the same folks who occupy the underbelly of society.
Sounds like you have an addiction problem if you’re forced to access it anywhere.
Ironic that the same folks who claim owning a firearm should be free from regulation also want to jail folks for owning a plant.
Ironic that the same folks who claim pot should be legalized also want to jail folks for selling big gulps.( ok maybe not jail but you know what I mean )
and calling pot a plant is like saying vodka is simply a potatoe
” but but, officer I was simply driving while under the influence of potatoes! yes it was 26 ounces of it but it is only a potatoe!”
And to add to what sasquatch said, I do not think I would want that former history teacher packing my chute, even between joints.
Well, in principle, I tend to side with the “legalize it” crowd. But as an important issue, it barely makes the needle quiver on my “give-a-shit” meter.
And that tends to make me suspicious of those people who seem to think it’s an issue of all-consuming importance.
No, cancer takes time to develop. Most smokers die of lung cancer in their 60s etc. Some people get it earlier than others. Give it time and you’ll start seeing all these pot head losers croaking.
As for legalizing marijuana if your argument is that “it does not harm you” that is not true. If your argument is that people do it anyway that doesn’t wash either since people still do all kinds of illegal things including drunk driving etc. No one’s in a hurry to legalize that are they?
The facts are drugs are harmful and should remain illegal and no, this does not contradict conservatism.
@ james: Ban alcohol then.
Right now in BC cannabis is essentially legal. Those people who are going to smoke it already are doing so. In Vancouver people are very open about smoking cannabis but in the interior it’s taken some of my patients 4 years to decide they trust me enough to let me know they’ve been using it for treating their arthritis pain for decades. Seems that use in the interior is just as high as it is in Vancouver, just that people are a lot more cautious about it.
IMHO, the war on some drugs is far more destructive than cannabis will ever be. The WOsD has resulted in a steady increase in totalitarianism with abuse of laws regarding “proceeds of crime”, having to explain why one would want to withdraw more than $10 K in cash from the bank, etc. Either one believes in freedom and the consequences that come with freedom or one is responsible for creating a dictatorship.
Potheads are annoying but then so are drunks. I’ve been looking for the psychotic effects in teenagers that are supposed to be a consequence of early cannabis use for years now and haven’t found a single case – every psychotic teenager I’ve seen has also been heavily into methamphetamine, cocaine and often whatever other drugs they can find. Alcohol is the number one problem drug that I deal with on a daily basis and there are weeks when I treat 4-5 patients with hepatic encephalopathy and cirrhosis at the hospital. These are conditions that are directly as a result of alcohol excess. Similarly, the COPD patients that I see are there as a result of utilizing unsafe forms of nicotine administration. The government has a huge role to play in this problem as they haven’t allowed the tobacco companies to market safe cigarettes which would basically be nicotine vaporizers as nicotine alone is far safer than pyrolized tobacco.
Given a choice between living in a nanny state where the government decides what people can put into their bodies “for their own safety” or in a state where people are allowed to make their own decisions about what drugs they chose to ingest, I’ll choose the latter. Also, I don’t want the government telling me whether or not I can walk around armed as I think that should be my decision, not theirs.
Conservatives need to decide if they’re in favor of a totalitarian state or individual responsibility. Right now the WOsD’s has been a very large reason for the countries descent into totalitarianism.
The best way to tax pot use is to put a really “high” tax on Cheetos, chips, burgers, ice cream………….I think you get it.
I’m not in favor of lowering the legal age for drinking alcohol and all we reeeeeally need is for more stoned and drunk kids behind the wheel.
Having said that – there are so few busts anymore of kids in posession of a few grams of weed that if they did legalize having a small amount – you have to think that it may not make that big a difference one way or the other.
Still – I’m thinking to err on the side of caution.
Hey!!!! come on. man! Don’t Bogart the roach!!!
Well said Loki. Most of my trauma patients – due to alcohol.
In addition I am tired of paying police officers to manage these retards like they are their parents. People have the option to either make something of themselves or blow their minds on drugs. If that’s their calling so be it. Trying to solve it by paying to store them in jail for thousands of dollars a year is simply a waste of money and effort.
More insidious is what I saw going on in the US where police departments began funding themselves with proceeds of drug crime money until it became a business of its own. Entire paramilitary forces funded by the drugcrime industry.
Conservatives absolutely need to decide if they’re in favor of a totalitarian state or individual responsibility. Right now I have a hard time telling the difference between the lefties and the right.
Libertarians need to get it into their thick heads that conservatives are NOT your ideological allies. We tolerate you in our big tent (although, I’m having second thoughts on that) because of the economic stuff, but we see no contradiction in banning certain drugs but not guns. Or marijuana but not alcohol. We don’t accept the same premise of absolute freedom that libertarians do. You think we’re being hypocritical? Who gives a shit? Why do we have to live with your premises?
Langmann, Loki, I’m reminded of the fact that what you are saying is not new. You folks in the front lines of public health have been saying this for decades. So time to cut to the chase; given the billions of dollars wasted and tens of thousands of lives lost, how long will it be before it is acknowledged openly that this utterly insane prohibition policy has failed in every way it’s possible to fail?
David, I dont’ give a rat’s ass if you are a hypocrite. That’s your problem. My problem is that your hypocritical prohibitionism has posed utterly insane costs and loss of life on the rest of society. I’m having to live with YOUR premise. SoCons need to get it through their thick heads that their attempts to enforce their personal morality on the rest of society is as dead and obsolete as the dinosaurs.
You were stupidly wrong in the 1930s with alcohol prohibitionism and you’re stupidly wrong today.
And who said libertarians believe in unlimited freedom? That’s called anarchy, not a libertarian society, and it has nothing to do with personal responsibility.
@ cgh: Agreed.
Conservatives like David may also wish to consider that their hypocritical beliefs invalidate their arguments especially with the younger generation. Arguing against gay marriage for instance, makes their arguments about gun rights look rediculous.
If you use drugs, get into a car, and hurt someone, my sentence for you is a harsh one – much harsher than the sentences given out these days. Just because I allow people the freedom to use drugs doesn’t mean I absolve them of responsibility for their actions. That is libertarianism.
“The WOsD has resulted in a steady increase in totalitarianism”
Really and where is that? I would be interested in knowing how enforcing the law equals totalitarianism.
“every psychotic teenager I’ve seen has also been heavily into methamphetamine, cocaine and often whatever other drugs they can find”
That sounds like an addiction issue so how will increasing access to things that give rise to addiction help our youth over the long haul?
I got an early education in the effect of prolonged marijuana use as a young man working on the rail gang, where the use of marijuana and hashish was endemic.
Not only did it make it dangerous as hell being around people who were operating heavy equipment, (I was nearly killed by a perpetually buzzed speedswing operator [http://www.gopettibone.com/speed-swing/]), it makes you stupid.
There was a guy on the crew who had spent the past two years finishing the last year of his Mathematics degree.
Every few days, he would haul out his calculus books and spread them out on his bunk, his hands poking helplessly at them like small, cautious animals. After an hour or so, he’d put them all away with a sigh, and light up a joint.
At one point he simply started to cry. I think it was at that point that he realized he had doomed himself to a lifetime of swinging a hammer.
I don’t care what anyone says about the “smart guy they know who smokes it regularly” with no ill effects. Marijuana makes you stupid. Some people have a shorter trajectory and fewer IQ points to spare, but it has more or less the same effect on everyone.
Well, I’d say that somebody needs to have a “rubber hits the road” moment and put forward an actual, er, reform model, based on sound economic principles.
I agree that the current policy arrangements are a pathetic failure, from whichever angle. Nevertheless, the old (ROFWLKITALMFAO; I first heard it in high school over thirty years ago), “Hey, let’s take it from a cost-centre and turn it into a profit centre for the government!” argument sounds very much like more of the same Liberal desperation that has gripped that Party for most of these past 73 years (with the singular exception of PET’s years) and which seem destined to continue well into the future.
My preliminary position would be, “legalize unconditionally, with legislation to revert to previous, in five years’ time unless renewed” — a sort of reverse Notwithstanding Clause position. Legalize, regulate and tax is not a position that I could even remotely support for many practical reasons, the most important of which is this: if you are truly want less government, the first thing you must do is starve it.
So, let’s kick it around, and see what we come up with…
james:
I worked in a rehab centre in the early 80`s. Pot kills, trust me. An addiction to pot is as bad as booze. Politicians and doctors tend to differ opinions on that one.
I saw a kid who was a rigger come in, he had gotten a bad batch that was most likely laced with a poison. He dried up, went vack to work. A few months later he died from a fall. Who knows?
David, we legalized alcohol. Pot and the rest of the chemical pharmocoepia don’t pose significantly different problems. I suspect however you are right. Unconditional decriminalization is probably the place where we have to end up. The desired endpoint is not a huge new source of government revenue; the desired endpoint is the end of the gigantic crime wave and public health problem associated with prohibition.
I do have one large caveat to all this. Being on pot or any narcotic is not a defense against having committed some other crime against person or property. Potheads behind the wheel are just as liable for consequences as drunks.
And drug use has to be a permissible reason for employers to decline applicants. I want neither boozers nor potheads in the office.
The end of prohibition in the 1930s did not produce more alcoholics. Since there’s universal access to narcotics today, the end of prohibition will not necessarily give rise to a huge increase in potheads either.
It’s first and foremost a lifestyle choice.
Christopher: “Marijuana makes you stupid. Some people have a shorter trajectory and fewer IQ points to spare, but it has more or less the same effect on everyone.”
I don’t care. If people choose to destroy their lives, whether it be from booze, pot or crack cocaine, that’s their business. There’s no sentimentality in me about this, and I’ve had to deal with enough alcoholics in my time. If they choose to inflict such adverse consequences on themselves, let them.
As Langmann noted, most of the trauma he sees as a physician is due to alcohol. Ask any physician who works in a hospital about the role of alcohol in various types of trauma. It’s huge and many people get quite stupid on alcohol. Alcohol causes permanent brain damage and I’ve lost track of the number of patients with Korsakoff’s syndrome that I’ve seen over the years. Every time I do a stint at the hospital I notice my alcohol intake dropping afterwards.
OTOH, alcohol is a great social lubricant, beer is a source of germ free water and there’s nothing quite like going out and having a few beers with ones friends. The idea is to do things in moderation which one gets through experience; if you’re staggering drunk and vomiting at age 17 that’s normal but a 50 year old doing the same thing has a serious problem.
Langmann has also pointed out the hypocrisy of US police departments who enrich themselves with “proceeds of crime” – no different than any organized group of criminals; just backed by the government. What the WOsD’s has done is to increase corruption in government to a degree never before seen. Alcohol prohibition did the same thing and vestiges of this are still seen in cities like Chicago.
For every example people have given of the stoned people who were dangerous on the job, I can probably provide 10 examples of people who were equally dangerous while drunk. My experience has been that stupid people are especially susceptible to the effects of psychoactive drugs whereas those who are more intelligent are able to handle them better. When I was in university there were many grad students who were essentially in a perpetual stone and functioning very well. This wasn’t in a humanities department, it was in hard sciences.
cgh, I agree with you that we need total decriminalization and NO government involvement in the process aside from very harsh penalties for people mis-representing what drugs they are selling. Also, penalties for driving while drunk/stoned and causing injury or death should be far harsher. I don’t believe in randomly checking people who are driving if they’ve ingested various drugs as they might be more proficient drivers on the drug combination they’ve taken. Performance testing is the key although this would likely take many elderly drivers off the road for being impaired considering how slow their reactions have become.
I don’t know why Libertarians continue to get confused with anarchists. Libertarians believe in freedom and responsibility. People who are going to do something stupid will do so regardless of what laws are in place to prevent it. Thus, why penalize the responsible with totalitarian legislation?
Loki and Langmann make good points; they’re on the ‘front lines’ so-to-speak, and their experience carries credibility.
Of course drugs have NO place at work, especially in a hazardous trade, and people who cite examples of drug related workplace accidents, are only supporting that point.
Alcohol related workplace accidents are just as bad, and only a fool would think that bringing back prohibition would stop them.
The biggest gain with making pot legal would be taking it out of the criminal drug world. Unfortunately a lot of criminals are getting rich from pot and they will continue to resist legalization by continuing to fund politicians seeking to keep it prohibited.
Follow the money.
Marijuana makes you stupid.
Likely part of the reason we have left wing governments. Add up the cost of that…
Loki: “I don’t know why Libertarians continue to get confused with anarchists.”
Because SoCons believe that personal responsibility doesn’t exist except where it is enforced?
Because inside every SoCon is a nasty little totalitarian just itching to get out? 馃槈
to路tal路i路tar路i路an (t -t l -t芒r – n). adj. Of, relating to, being, or imposing a form of government in which the political authority exercises absolute and centralized control …
Yes right; enforcing the current prohibition is totalitarian. Words like denier and totalitarian tend to lose their original meaning when used in an exaggerated way. People who escaped totalitarianism know what it is and it’s not our current drug laws.
If the federal government allows Washington to proceed with its social experiment, retail marijuana sales in the state could top $1 billion a year, according to the state鈥檚 Office of Financial Management, which studied impacts of I-502 before the Nov. 6 election.
…
The Liquor Control Board is at least a year away from handing down the rules that will define the new industry…
What do you think the chances are that a bunch of friends and family members of the washington state liquor control board are about to make a pant load of cash? I think potheads in Washington are going to be pining for the good old days when pot was illegal pretty soon.
I’m going to the Seattle area this weekend. I’ll have to watch out for stoned drivers. Along with all the other whackos on the I-5. It’s dangerous out there.
I sure hope they will all be paying their carbon credits for all that CO2.And james,you are so right.When AB privatized,if you couldn’t prove you had donated mucho moola,or were a friend of CINO gubermint,you didn’t get a store.10% of the stores here are owned/operated by whites,the rest Muslims.Yes, they will tolerate booze as long as they are making a buck on it!
Gays, potheads, artists – all these people need government control in their lives to feel legitimate. Losers.
Mike in White Rock:
Based on the driving habits of those in Metro Vancouver, I think that Pot-Impaired Driving is the norm here. 馃檨
With apologies for not watching the all-too-predictable video, will Crowder follow up with a interview of winos on skid row with a view to determining if the de-criminalization of alcohol was a bad idea.
And how about a follow up video with the friends and family of that brave female Mexican mayor who just got murdered for pushing back against the drug lords with a view to determining the effectiveness of the so-called War on Drugs?
Haven’t seen any harm incurred in my social circles from recreational MJ use. Anecdotal for sure, but I was a teenager in the 70’s and many still smoke it.
Most of the danger comes from being forced to access it through the same folks who occupy the underbelly of society.
What does it make you if you insist that Gubment criminalize marijuana while at the same time advocate for more individual freedom and a smaller, less intrusive government?
Wait until they find out its a weed and grows everywhere and anywhere. Tuff to tax homegrown.
Hey doowleb, wait another decade and come back and tell us how many of your friends are dead from cancer.
Well, given Steve’s information, we should also make alcohol, prescription drugs, rock climbing, big gulps illegal since they all can cause great harm.
GM
The truth is that MJ is largely harmless but prohibition kills.
WA and CO have struck a body blow against the War on Drugs. The feds will try to fight back but they are out of money. Uruguay also partially legalized. We are well into the beginning of the end now if Canada would get a federal government with some sane policies in this arena.
I couldn’t give a rat’s *ss about the legalization of marijuana. If you want to smoke the stuff, go nuts.
However, that being said …. I would expect that marijuana smokers be subject to the same restrictions, demonization and bullying that is the norm for tobacco users.
A) Psychiatry is not a science, it’s a psuedo science.
B) even if alcohol is found in a dead vehicle driver’s body it does not prove that the alcohol was the cause of the accident.
Say it together kiddies: Correlation Does Not Prove Causation.
As an addendum, does anyone remember Canadian Ross Rebagliati was disqualified from receiving his Gold Medal in snowboarding at the XVIII Olympic Winter Games in Nagano Japan for smoking marijuana because the Americans claimed it was a performance enhancing drug.
Subsequently, the Americans had a holy-shit-what-are-we-saying moment and Rebagliati had his medal restored.
LAS, it won’t happen because as you see above the Right is totally schizophrenic on the issue. Too many want small government, less regulation, yadda, yadda, But they also want absolute bans on all kinds of things like pot. That’s where they join ranks with the leftist ban-everything progressives.
At some point the Right is going to have to decide whether or not it believes in the full responsibility of the individual. Until it does, it’s going to remain captive of the lefist collectivist morons.
Of course prohibition kills. It puts BC’s largest cash crop exclusively into the hands of criminals. The War on Drugs has reduced the supply and the availability not one iota. And in return for thousands of dead all it has achieved is to drive up the price and hence the crime rate. And artificially create a massive public health problem.
And as for harming others, we punish drunk drivers; there’s no reason we can’t punish pothead drivers.
The thread graphic is somewhat misleading too:
I’d say that the consumption of MJ the day after it’s “legalized” will be the same as the day before. Put another way, I doubt that anyone who wanted to smoke pot has demured due to this dumb-ass-law.
And LAS is certainly right: Prohibition kills: it’s 50,000 now in Mexico, roughly the same as US deaths in the dumb-ass Vietnam war. And all those wasted lives in prison at enormous public expense for this dumb-ass victim-less crime.
For the record I take no drugs except for two cupsa coffee first thing in the morning.
Legalize it all. Government has no business protecting organized crime with stupid, utterly useless, laws.
Ironic that the same folks who claim owning a firearm should be free from regulation also want to jail folks for owning a plant.
Er, james, if doowleb’s friends were smoking pot in the 70’s, wouldn’t many of them be dead of cancer in 10 years time anyway, no matter what they did?
Not advocating for pot here, just for a realistic appreciation of human frailty.
Canada will never, ever legalize marijuana as long as the US continues it’s war or drugs. It would drive a huge wedge between our relations with them.
No matter where one stands on this issue, it isn’t going to happen any time soon.
I would and have hired pot heads over boozers any day of the week. It is relatively harmless and does little in the way of driving impairment. Ever watch potheads play vid games? MJ laws do nothing but ruin peoples lives with a criminal record if caught. It is the biggest sham going these days.
Tax it, regulate it and get on with it I says.
TrueNorthist at November 27, 2012 6:15 PM
“Ironic that the same folks who claim owning a firearm should be free from regulation also want to jail folks for owning a plant.”
Yeah I noticed that…the same element that seeks “gunlaws” and “gun-bans”, actively support legalizing not just MJ but most recreational drugs.
Me I recall taking an indifferent attitude, until one day Charles was in the wire, and I saw one of the cool guys, smoking a joint feeding a 81mm mortar…as he dropped the round down the barrel….the wrong way. Talk about yer bein’ overtaken on the road to Damascus….Ya see I wuz that sorry SOB, who had to write all them letters to the nexta kin…….
An visiting acquaintance tried to light up a joint at chez moi…one day….told him I would shove it up his …. so far he would have to set his nose on fire to light it.
Yeah I know that’s not too original…but it seemed appropriate.
Yeah I’m sorta biased….
sasquatch,
Thanks for bringing a dose of reality to the conversation.
Hilarious Kate. Its like living in this trailer park. At 17:00 the blue smoke rises all over.
@ chg: well said. You are correct the right and theory are hard to tell apart sometimes.
@ Sasquatch: yeah it’s a shame. I treat trauma daily due to misuse of alcohol sometimes involving innocent people due to stupidity and misuse by others. I have to tell families the bad news. I don’t go raging on people who drink wine at Christmas dinner or at a friends BBQ. You just have to deal with the problem: some people are too stupid or too irresponsible to share this planet with and nothing seems to help. But either I believe in freedom or I don’t.
I can see a society coming with many people around us similar to that professor in the video.
Sasquatch….good comment. I recall investigating the murder of a 81 year lady in Alberta who was stabbed 187 times by a punk who was zoned out on pot and was in a killing frenzy. Apparently he didn’t get the memo that pot supposedly caused you to become “mellow”…
@ cgh : You are correct, the left and right are hard to tell apart sometimes. As for the war on drugs, its killing people and causing part of the problem.
(Sorry my phone’s spellcheck went ape, but I think I’ve now discovered why ok sounds so messed up.)
Most of the danger comes from being forced to access it through the same folks who occupy the underbelly of society.
Sounds like you have an addiction problem if you’re forced to access it anywhere.
Ironic that the same folks who claim owning a firearm should be free from regulation also want to jail folks for owning a plant.
Ironic that the same folks who claim pot should be legalized also want to jail folks for selling big gulps.( ok maybe not jail but you know what I mean )
and calling pot a plant is like saying vodka is simply a potatoe
” but but, officer I was simply driving while under the influence of potatoes! yes it was 26 ounces of it but it is only a potatoe!”
And to add to what sasquatch said, I do not think I would want that former history teacher packing my chute, even between joints.
Well, in principle, I tend to side with the “legalize it” crowd. But as an important issue, it barely makes the needle quiver on my “give-a-shit” meter.
And that tends to make me suspicious of those people who seem to think it’s an issue of all-consuming importance.
No, cancer takes time to develop. Most smokers die of lung cancer in their 60s etc. Some people get it earlier than others. Give it time and you’ll start seeing all these pot head losers croaking.
As for legalizing marijuana if your argument is that “it does not harm you” that is not true. If your argument is that people do it anyway that doesn’t wash either since people still do all kinds of illegal things including drunk driving etc. No one’s in a hurry to legalize that are they?
The facts are drugs are harmful and should remain illegal and no, this does not contradict conservatism.
@ james: Ban alcohol then.
Right now in BC cannabis is essentially legal. Those people who are going to smoke it already are doing so. In Vancouver people are very open about smoking cannabis but in the interior it’s taken some of my patients 4 years to decide they trust me enough to let me know they’ve been using it for treating their arthritis pain for decades. Seems that use in the interior is just as high as it is in Vancouver, just that people are a lot more cautious about it.
IMHO, the war on some drugs is far more destructive than cannabis will ever be. The WOsD has resulted in a steady increase in totalitarianism with abuse of laws regarding “proceeds of crime”, having to explain why one would want to withdraw more than $10 K in cash from the bank, etc. Either one believes in freedom and the consequences that come with freedom or one is responsible for creating a dictatorship.
Potheads are annoying but then so are drunks. I’ve been looking for the psychotic effects in teenagers that are supposed to be a consequence of early cannabis use for years now and haven’t found a single case – every psychotic teenager I’ve seen has also been heavily into methamphetamine, cocaine and often whatever other drugs they can find. Alcohol is the number one problem drug that I deal with on a daily basis and there are weeks when I treat 4-5 patients with hepatic encephalopathy and cirrhosis at the hospital. These are conditions that are directly as a result of alcohol excess. Similarly, the COPD patients that I see are there as a result of utilizing unsafe forms of nicotine administration. The government has a huge role to play in this problem as they haven’t allowed the tobacco companies to market safe cigarettes which would basically be nicotine vaporizers as nicotine alone is far safer than pyrolized tobacco.
Given a choice between living in a nanny state where the government decides what people can put into their bodies “for their own safety” or in a state where people are allowed to make their own decisions about what drugs they chose to ingest, I’ll choose the latter. Also, I don’t want the government telling me whether or not I can walk around armed as I think that should be my decision, not theirs.
Conservatives need to decide if they’re in favor of a totalitarian state or individual responsibility. Right now the WOsD’s has been a very large reason for the countries descent into totalitarianism.
The best way to tax pot use is to put a really “high” tax on Cheetos, chips, burgers, ice cream………….I think you get it.
I’m not in favor of lowering the legal age for drinking alcohol and all we reeeeeally need is for more stoned and drunk kids behind the wheel.
Having said that – there are so few busts anymore of kids in posession of a few grams of weed that if they did legalize having a small amount – you have to think that it may not make that big a difference one way or the other.
Still – I’m thinking to err on the side of caution.
Hey!!!! come on. man! Don’t Bogart the roach!!!
Well said Loki. Most of my trauma patients – due to alcohol.
In addition I am tired of paying police officers to manage these retards like they are their parents. People have the option to either make something of themselves or blow their minds on drugs. If that’s their calling so be it. Trying to solve it by paying to store them in jail for thousands of dollars a year is simply a waste of money and effort.
More insidious is what I saw going on in the US where police departments began funding themselves with proceeds of drug crime money until it became a business of its own. Entire paramilitary forces funded by the drugcrime industry.
Conservatives absolutely need to decide if they’re in favor of a totalitarian state or individual responsibility. Right now I have a hard time telling the difference between the lefties and the right.
Libertarians need to get it into their thick heads that conservatives are NOT your ideological allies. We tolerate you in our big tent (although, I’m having second thoughts on that) because of the economic stuff, but we see no contradiction in banning certain drugs but not guns. Or marijuana but not alcohol. We don’t accept the same premise of absolute freedom that libertarians do. You think we’re being hypocritical? Who gives a shit? Why do we have to live with your premises?
Langmann, Loki, I’m reminded of the fact that what you are saying is not new. You folks in the front lines of public health have been saying this for decades. So time to cut to the chase; given the billions of dollars wasted and tens of thousands of lives lost, how long will it be before it is acknowledged openly that this utterly insane prohibition policy has failed in every way it’s possible to fail?
David, I dont’ give a rat’s ass if you are a hypocrite. That’s your problem. My problem is that your hypocritical prohibitionism has posed utterly insane costs and loss of life on the rest of society. I’m having to live with YOUR premise. SoCons need to get it through their thick heads that their attempts to enforce their personal morality on the rest of society is as dead and obsolete as the dinosaurs.
You were stupidly wrong in the 1930s with alcohol prohibitionism and you’re stupidly wrong today.
And who said libertarians believe in unlimited freedom? That’s called anarchy, not a libertarian society, and it has nothing to do with personal responsibility.
@ cgh: Agreed.
Conservatives like David may also wish to consider that their hypocritical beliefs invalidate their arguments especially with the younger generation. Arguing against gay marriage for instance, makes their arguments about gun rights look rediculous.
If you use drugs, get into a car, and hurt someone, my sentence for you is a harsh one – much harsher than the sentences given out these days. Just because I allow people the freedom to use drugs doesn’t mean I absolve them of responsibility for their actions. That is libertarianism.
“The WOsD has resulted in a steady increase in totalitarianism”
Really and where is that? I would be interested in knowing how enforcing the law equals totalitarianism.
“every psychotic teenager I’ve seen has also been heavily into methamphetamine, cocaine and often whatever other drugs they can find”
That sounds like an addiction issue so how will increasing access to things that give rise to addiction help our youth over the long haul?
I got an early education in the effect of prolonged marijuana use as a young man working on the rail gang, where the use of marijuana and hashish was endemic.
Not only did it make it dangerous as hell being around people who were operating heavy equipment, (I was nearly killed by a perpetually buzzed speedswing operator [http://www.gopettibone.com/speed-swing/]), it makes you stupid.
There was a guy on the crew who had spent the past two years finishing the last year of his Mathematics degree.
Every few days, he would haul out his calculus books and spread them out on his bunk, his hands poking helplessly at them like small, cautious animals. After an hour or so, he’d put them all away with a sigh, and light up a joint.
At one point he simply started to cry. I think it was at that point that he realized he had doomed himself to a lifetime of swinging a hammer.
I don’t care what anyone says about the “smart guy they know who smokes it regularly” with no ill effects. Marijuana makes you stupid. Some people have a shorter trajectory and fewer IQ points to spare, but it has more or less the same effect on everyone.
Well, I’d say that somebody needs to have a “rubber hits the road” moment and put forward an actual, er, reform model, based on sound economic principles.
I agree that the current policy arrangements are a pathetic failure, from whichever angle. Nevertheless, the old (ROFWLKITALMFAO; I first heard it in high school over thirty years ago), “Hey, let’s take it from a cost-centre and turn it into a profit centre for the government!” argument sounds very much like more of the same Liberal desperation that has gripped that Party for most of these past 73 years (with the singular exception of PET’s years) and which seem destined to continue well into the future.
My preliminary position would be, “legalize unconditionally, with legislation to revert to previous, in five years’ time unless renewed” — a sort of reverse Notwithstanding Clause position. Legalize, regulate and tax is not a position that I could even remotely support for many practical reasons, the most important of which is this: if you are truly want less government, the first thing you must do is starve it.
So, let’s kick it around, and see what we come up with…
james:
I worked in a rehab centre in the early 80`s. Pot kills, trust me. An addiction to pot is as bad as booze. Politicians and doctors tend to differ opinions on that one.
I saw a kid who was a rigger come in, he had gotten a bad batch that was most likely laced with a poison. He dried up, went vack to work. A few months later he died from a fall. Who knows?
David, we legalized alcohol. Pot and the rest of the chemical pharmocoepia don’t pose significantly different problems. I suspect however you are right. Unconditional decriminalization is probably the place where we have to end up. The desired endpoint is not a huge new source of government revenue; the desired endpoint is the end of the gigantic crime wave and public health problem associated with prohibition.
I do have one large caveat to all this. Being on pot or any narcotic is not a defense against having committed some other crime against person or property. Potheads behind the wheel are just as liable for consequences as drunks.
And drug use has to be a permissible reason for employers to decline applicants. I want neither boozers nor potheads in the office.
The end of prohibition in the 1930s did not produce more alcoholics. Since there’s universal access to narcotics today, the end of prohibition will not necessarily give rise to a huge increase in potheads either.
It’s first and foremost a lifestyle choice.
Christopher: “Marijuana makes you stupid. Some people have a shorter trajectory and fewer IQ points to spare, but it has more or less the same effect on everyone.”
I don’t care. If people choose to destroy their lives, whether it be from booze, pot or crack cocaine, that’s their business. There’s no sentimentality in me about this, and I’ve had to deal with enough alcoholics in my time. If they choose to inflict such adverse consequences on themselves, let them.
As Langmann noted, most of the trauma he sees as a physician is due to alcohol. Ask any physician who works in a hospital about the role of alcohol in various types of trauma. It’s huge and many people get quite stupid on alcohol. Alcohol causes permanent brain damage and I’ve lost track of the number of patients with Korsakoff’s syndrome that I’ve seen over the years. Every time I do a stint at the hospital I notice my alcohol intake dropping afterwards.
OTOH, alcohol is a great social lubricant, beer is a source of germ free water and there’s nothing quite like going out and having a few beers with ones friends. The idea is to do things in moderation which one gets through experience; if you’re staggering drunk and vomiting at age 17 that’s normal but a 50 year old doing the same thing has a serious problem.
Langmann has also pointed out the hypocrisy of US police departments who enrich themselves with “proceeds of crime” – no different than any organized group of criminals; just backed by the government. What the WOsD’s has done is to increase corruption in government to a degree never before seen. Alcohol prohibition did the same thing and vestiges of this are still seen in cities like Chicago.
For every example people have given of the stoned people who were dangerous on the job, I can probably provide 10 examples of people who were equally dangerous while drunk. My experience has been that stupid people are especially susceptible to the effects of psychoactive drugs whereas those who are more intelligent are able to handle them better. When I was in university there were many grad students who were essentially in a perpetual stone and functioning very well. This wasn’t in a humanities department, it was in hard sciences.
cgh, I agree with you that we need total decriminalization and NO government involvement in the process aside from very harsh penalties for people mis-representing what drugs they are selling. Also, penalties for driving while drunk/stoned and causing injury or death should be far harsher. I don’t believe in randomly checking people who are driving if they’ve ingested various drugs as they might be more proficient drivers on the drug combination they’ve taken. Performance testing is the key although this would likely take many elderly drivers off the road for being impaired considering how slow their reactions have become.
I don’t know why Libertarians continue to get confused with anarchists. Libertarians believe in freedom and responsibility. People who are going to do something stupid will do so regardless of what laws are in place to prevent it. Thus, why penalize the responsible with totalitarian legislation?
Loki and Langmann make good points; they’re on the ‘front lines’ so-to-speak, and their experience carries credibility.
Of course drugs have NO place at work, especially in a hazardous trade, and people who cite examples of drug related workplace accidents, are only supporting that point.
Alcohol related workplace accidents are just as bad, and only a fool would think that bringing back prohibition would stop them.
The biggest gain with making pot legal would be taking it out of the criminal drug world. Unfortunately a lot of criminals are getting rich from pot and they will continue to resist legalization by continuing to fund politicians seeking to keep it prohibited.
Follow the money.
Marijuana makes you stupid.
Likely part of the reason we have left wing governments. Add up the cost of that…
Loki: “I don’t know why Libertarians continue to get confused with anarchists.”
Because SoCons believe that personal responsibility doesn’t exist except where it is enforced?
Because inside every SoCon is a nasty little totalitarian just itching to get out? 馃槈
to路tal路i路tar路i路an (t -t l -t芒r – n). adj. Of, relating to, being, or imposing a form of government in which the political authority exercises absolute and centralized control …
Yes right; enforcing the current prohibition is totalitarian. Words like denier and totalitarian tend to lose their original meaning when used in an exaggerated way. People who escaped totalitarianism know what it is and it’s not our current drug laws.