78 Replies to “What We Really Need Is Democracy.”

  1. ET wants us to listen to academics. YUP. Like her..
    This is is what the PEW poll reads:
    Q94 ASK MUSLIMS ONLY: Do you think there
    is a struggle in our country between groups
    who want to modernize the country and
    Islamic fundamentalists or don’t you think
    so?
    Q95 ASK IF THERE IS A STRUGGLE IN Q94: Which
    side do you identify with more in this struggle, the
    groups who want to modernize the country or Islamic
    fundamentalists (* Based on those who say there is a struggle
    in Pakistsan between groups who want to
    modernize the country and Islamic
    fundamentalists).
    Further, PEW wrote that in that poll Data (is) based on national samples except in Pakistan where the samples are
    disproportionately urban.
    However ET seems to think that:
    Questions:
    94-95, whether the respondents acknowledged a struggle between modernizers and fundamentalists, and then, whether the respondent identified with the modernizers or fundamentalists.
    As I said, it is interesting that in Pakistan, 44% agreed there was a struggle and 61% identified with modernization…and only 28% with fundamentalists. The reality on the ground is the opposite
    But hey, she even did not went to the poll and saw that a year ago 40% said there was a struggle and out of these 40 percent 73% identified with modernizers. She is behaving like many liberal persons – acknowledge the PEW data which confirm her preconception and reject the data which do not confirm to her preconceptions.

  2. Sorry, have to change that last. It is not that ET preconception about Pakistan are really wrong, PEW answers agree with what she thinks is on the ground. It is that her preconception about Egypt are wrong and that she interprets/reads incorrectly PEW questions and the answers to them.

  3. oz – I didn’t call you anti-wealth; I asked if you were, because your comments about Mohamed El-Erian certainly seemed that way. Could you provide some evidence that he is a ‘money fanatic’ (I’ve never heard the term). Could you provide some evidence that being involved with investments means that one is a ‘fanatic’?
    I’m aware that you are trying to link him with Essam El-Erian by calling him, also, a ‘fanatic’, in this case, Islamist. I’m sure you realize that this is illogical. It’s the old false syllogism of:
    All cats are animals
    All dogs are animals
    Therefore, all cats are dogs.
    Sorry- but you can’t logically or empirically, discount Mohamed El-Erian’s knowledge of and analysis of the ME, by your attempt to define him as a ‘fanatic’ (animal).
    And I think that your speculation that they ‘could be’ close relatives and both members of the MB – is akin to the gossip of the water cooler chatter. Is that how you arrive at your opinions?
    nomdeblog – yes, I certainly agree that many, many people in the US voted for Obama as a ‘magic solution’.
    Here’s an interesting analysis by Fareed Zakaria.
    “Zakaria argued that Islamic extremism was not fundamentally rooted in Islam, nor could it be claimed a reaction to American foreign policy. It had its roots in the stagnation and dysfunctions of the Arab world. Decades of failure under tyrannical regimes, all claiming to be Western-style secular modernizers, had produced an opposition that was anti-Western, religious, violent, and increasingly globalized. Since the mosque was a place where people could gather and Islam an institution that was outside the reach of censorship, they both provided a context for the growth of the political opposition.”
    And, http://www.time.com/time/world/article/0,8599,2045888-1,00.html
    He explains that Mubarak allowed some economic reforms, which have in turn, led to ‘increased expectations’..and he has instead, clamped down on these expectations. “But ever since the late 1950s, the Egyptian regime has cracked down on its civil society, shutting down political parties, closing newspapers, jailing politicians, bribing judges and silencing intellectuals”
    “Youth unemployment and food prices might have been the immediate causes, but the underlying trend was a growing, restive population, stirred up by new economic winds, connected to a wider world.”
    And “Except that this is not all the Pew surveys show. A 2007 poll found that 90% of Egyptians support freedom of religion, 88% an impartial judiciary and 80% free speech; 75% are opposed to censorship, and, according to the 2010 report, a large majority believes that democracy is preferable to any other kind of government.”
    And he writes: “The real challenge remains the role of Islam, Islamic fundamentalists and the Muslim Brotherhood. Islam has a special appeal in Egypt and the broader Arab world, but it’s important to understand why. Secular dictators have ruled these lands for decades and ruthlessly suppressed all political activity. The one place they could not shut down was the mosque, so it became the center of political activism and discourse, and Islam became the language of opposition.”
    It’s an interesting article – that does not refer to the people as illiterate thugs but explores the economic and political infrastructure..and discusses possible outcomes, problems, etc.
    Again, Islamic fascism is, in my view, an ‘appeal to magic’ to deal with totalitarianism and economic dysfunctionality and poverty. It’s a utopian ideology, focused on purity-of-type (we must all be Muslims) as the bandaid to a better future. Utopianism cannot translate to reality. Such a repression cannot be functional for a people and cannot be maintained for long..even with theological and military force.
    What is going on in the ME is a tectonic shift, inevitable due to its exponential population growth and its refusal to modernize its political system to enable a middle class to emerge and take democratic power.

  4. Sorry- but you can’t logically or empirically, discount Mohamed El-Erian’s knowledge of and analysis of the ME, by your attempt to define him as a ‘fanatic’ (animal).
    ~ET
    I can logically discount your self serving interpretation of Mohamed’s analysis of Egypt by acknowledging Essam El-Erian’s analysis of Egypt.
    Essam’s enhances Mohamed’s and therefore your interpretation of Mohamed’s analysis is at a discount.
    It’s quite logical.
    To pretend that Mohamed El-Erian is disinterested and can’t possibly be projecting only what he wants onto the situtation is simply obtuse.
    Your contention that Mohamed El-Erian knows that the MB isn’t behind the revolt in Egypt because Mohamed El-Erian didn’t mention that the Muslim Brotherhood was behind it isn’t proof of anything except that Mohamed El-Erian omitted to make mention of the MB.
    You, ET, make an illogical leap that omission is the same as a declaration that Mohamed El-Erian has said that the MB isn’t a factor.
    Bad logic on your part.
    It’s the old false syllogism of:
    All cats are animals
    All dogs are animals
    Therefore, all cats are dogs.
    ~ET
    Not at all.
    That’s your straw man, not mine.

  5. ET says ” The literacy rate in Egypt is 71%”
    ………..
    http://ipsnews.net/news.asp?idnews=50641
    Quote: “One in every four Egyptians is illiterate. Despite free education and long- running literacy programmes, the number of illiterates has changed little in over two decades. Nearly 17 million adult Egyptians can neither read nor write, according to recent government data.” End quote.
    Canada 2006:
    http://www.cbc.ca/news/background/education/canada-shame.html
    Qoute: “In total, 42 per cent of Canadians are semi-illiterate. The proportion is even worse for those in middle age. And even when new immigrants are excluded, the numbers remains pretty much the same.
    But what’s worse is that for the past 15 years there’s been scarcely any improvement.” End quote.
    So, there’s literacy and there’s literacy; I was told, in Pakistan or somewhere in that area that ‘literacy’ can be as little as the ability to read & write one’s own name, and that kind of ‘literacy’ is a far cry from being able to comprehend the intricacies of complex international events and the ramifications thereof.
    If 42% of Canadians are semi-illiterate how do you think we compare to Egypt, better or worse?
    As to “What’s your (my) point?” re Muslim comments about Jews, this is what they are taught, read Hirsi Ali, read anyone who’s gotten out from under Islam, you’ll hear the same thing.
    How many Muslims, despite all the evidence, believe that Jews were responsible for 9/11?
    You continue to talk about ‘demographics and economics’ as if this is some rational academic exercise – where does rationality figure for people who willingly blow themselves up among hundreds of their fellows?
    This is not rationality, it’s hysterics brought about by a lifetime of religious propaganda.

  6. There’s an interesting analysis in American Thinker by Richard Little on ‘Egypt’s Real Problem: Decades of Authoritarian Socialist Rule’. He locates the problems, not in population pressure or economic infrastructure of in Islamic fascism, but in..authoritarian socialism.
    “At its core, socialism is an ideology that uses government force and coercion to make people behave in a manner that they would not if given the freedom to choose.
    “Likewise, centralized state control of the economic decision-making and resources in the hands of an elite few, no matter what collectivist or populist ideology they profess, invariably leads to poverty and political corruption.
    “The only people who escape this economic poverty and prosper under Socialism are the political class who run the system … This leads inevitably to the kind of political corruption and rent-seeking we see rampant in Egypt today”.
    I agree with his outline of socialism and I think that he’s partially right in its application to Egypt. That is, socialism is the same as tribalism; it’s a two-class structure that prevents a middle class, the site of private entrepreneurship, from emerging. I wish that he had dealt with this, and also, with the problem of the exponential population increase and Egypt’s economic and political failure to deal with this population.
    But – he also ignores Islamic fascism, and I don’t think that he should. I certainly don’t think that Islamic fascism will succeed in Egypt because it remains an intellectual action – and as such, it cannot operate an economy. It is, as I’ve said, a magical solution to problems.
    But, the fact that there IS a desire for magic rather than hard reality, means that democracy – which is all about hard reality – will have to be fought for, will have to be constructed carefully, with a constitution and rule of law in place before elections. The election of Obama was a desire for a magical solution as well, and we’ve certainly seen his, and other’s socialism in their top-down authoritarianism about ‘carbon taxes’ and health care, and..just about anything Obama does.
    My conern on this thread is the almost automatic response of many here, who consider that the people of the ME are unable to function within democracy and must be, forever, ruled – whether by socialism or dictatorship.

  7. ET says “My conern on this thread is the almost automatic response of many here, who consider that the people of the ME are unable to function within democracy and must be, forever, ruled – whether by socialism or dictatorship.” End quote.
    I believe that most of us who you’ve assigned to that category are talking about the-here-and-now rather than some nebulous ‘forever’.

  8. I certainly don’t think that Islamic fascism will succeed in Egypt because it remains an intellectual action – and as such, it cannot operate an economy.
    [SNIP]
    My conern on this thread is the almost automatic response of many here, who consider that the people of the ME are unable to function within democracy and must be, forever, ruled – whether by socialism or dictatorship.
    ~ET
    Islamic fascism will succeed in the short term, IF the Egyptian Army allows it to come to power.
    Big if.
    The Egyptian Army is largely apolitical but is Muslim nonetheless.
    The assassins of Anwar Sadat were Egyptian Army and Muslim fanatics too.
    The Pakistani Army is Muslim and Pakistan has an Islamic Republic.
    Forever is a long time.
    I don’t think anything earthly is forever.
    Has anyone been using that term other than you, ET, or is that just you projecting again?

  9. nemo2 – I think you understand that I am not referring only to the future.
    We know, with certainty, neither the ‘here and now’ nor the future when we are dealing with a new system and its effects. We cannot know with certainty whether the arab people cannot handle democracy now…and must therefore now be ruled by an authority…and also, be forever so ruled.
    There isn’t any way for others to take an authoritarian ‘parental’ role and say: ‘No, you aren’t ready’. We might have to assist in their formation of a constitution – i.e., showing how it must set up constraints to the powers of any government, how it must set up limited terms for elected representatives, etc…but I don’t see how any other nation can assume a patriarchal authority over their desires for freedom.
    I look at societies as ‘organic structures’ and only point out that the variables of population size – and economic mode – must be correlated to the political mode. You can’t have one system out of sync with the other systems: all of them – population size, economic mode, political mode..must function to support each other.
    A two-class system won’t function within a massive population; it simply can’t generate enough wealth. You need a productive middle class. I consider that these are the issues to focus on – and to move into judgments that ‘all arabs are illiterate ignoramus’ and must be ruled by authoritarian means not only won’t solve the problem but, I maintain, actually moves them more and more into magical solutions, i.e., fascism.

  10. Nemo says “You continue to talk about ‘demographics and economics’ as if this is some rational academic exercise – where does rationality figure for people who willingly blow themselves up among hundreds of their fellows?”
    It is defiantly not rational to blow themselves up. Nor is rational for you to make an argument that a few hundred people doing that out of 1.5 billion is representative.
    “How many Muslims, despite all the evidence, believe that Jews were responsible for 9/11?”
    How many Hollywood stars believe the same thing?
    “read Hirsi Ali, read anyone who’s gotten out from under Islam, you’ll hear the same thing”
    I’ve got her books and admire her (incidentally she is now married to Niall Ferguson a Prof at the Harvard Business School who compares finance to anthropology and the “complex adaptive systems (CAS) that ET often refers to on this blog.
    Memo to nemo: nobody here is defending Islam, it’s tribal, backwards, and needs to be reformed. Hirsi Ali is right, the ME has to get out from under Islam and join the world, couldn’t agree more. That’s why we have to look at the economics and help those huge populations drop the “magic” solutions of utopian Obamalike “hope and change “and deal with the real world of economics.

  11. ET: I haven’t posited that “All Arabs are illiterate ignoramuses” (one of the most urbane people I ever met was an Egyptian guy I worked with in Toronto some 35 years ago), nor have I suggested that they be ruled by government despots forever.
    What I AM saying is that it’s impossible and very unwise to discount the impact that Islam has on the thought processes of its adherents. It, Islam, is the epitome of all-pervasive despotism on every level, and if, as the Jesuits apparently say/said, if they have a child until the age of, say, 6, they’ll have him/her forever, can you imagine the fortitude it must take to break from from a far, far, more constrictive orthodoxy?
    I have no idea what’s going to happen in the M.E., I merely suggest certain possibilities, but, as I said yesterday, never, ever, say “Naah, THAT would never happen”, no matter how outlandish the idea.

  12. That’s why we have to look at the economics and help those huge populations drop the “magic” solutions of utopian Obamalike “hope and change “and deal with the real world of economics.
    ~nomdeblog
    I look at the world’s economic state and helping those huge Muslim populations isn’t even on my “to do” list.
    >How dreadful are the curses which Mohammedanism lays on its votaries! Besides the fanatical frenzy, which is as dangerous in a man as hydrophobia in a dog, there is this fearful fatalistic apathy.
    (Insha Allah, if Allah wills)
    The effects are apparent in many countries. Improvident habits, slovenly systems of agriculture, sluggish methods of commerce, and insecurity of property exist wherever the followers of the Prophet rule or live.
    A degraded sensualism deprives this life of its grace and refinement; the next of its dignity and sanctity. The fact that in Mohammedan law every woman must belong to some man as his absolute property, either as a child, a wife, or a concubine, must delay the final extinction of slavery until the faith of Islam has ceased to be a great power among men.
    Individual Moslems may show splendid qualities, but the influence of the religion paralyses the social development of those who follow it.
    No stronger retrograde force exists in the world. Far from being moribund, Mohammedanism is a militant and proselytizing faith. It has already spread throughout Central Africa, raising fearless warriors at every step; and were it not that Christianity is sheltered in the strong arms of science, the science against which it had vainly struggled, the civilization of modern Europe might fall, as fell the civilization of ancient Rome.
    ~Sir Winston Churchill
    Islam is the problem there, not much has changed since Winnie’s observations.
    I suppose what is needed is for Egypt, and other Middle Eastern thugocracies, to get their fill of the tender mercies of Islamic rule before they can move on to actual democracy but the security threat that this route poses to the West isn’t worth it.

  13. Here’s Victor Davis Hanson – one of the most astute analysts at Pajamas Media.
    He writes that Bush rejected the old adage of ‘he may be a dictator but at least he’s on our side’ and instead, “declared that freedom was a transcendent value that all humans aspired to, even in oppressive political and religious climates”.
    And “Obama was Bush’s antithesis and defined himself as resetting everything that Bush had envisioned, clueless that that meant in Pavlovian fashion opposing all the good that Bush had done as well. He canceled support for Egyptian dissidents. He all but gave a green light for the theocrats to crush the Iranian dissidents. He was harder on Israel than on Syria. He was far more interested in either apologizing for the United States, trashing the Iraq war, or offering fairy stories about the Islamic roots of Western civilization than simply expressing support for consensual government in the Middle East. So again, why?”
    “Obama is not a classical liberal, but rather an illiberal multicultural relativist. In his way of thinking, all cultures are equal, and so are not to be judged by transcendent, timeless abstract values like freedom and liberty.”
    My point is that this relativism and indifference to western exceptionalism means that Obama, and others like him, will readily accept dictators around the world as ‘well, that’s how they live’.
    I’m not only arging against multiculturalist relativism and its basic indifference to people, viewing them as some kind of exotic others – who live in strange ways, even liking dictatorships… but I’m also arguing that societies have to be looked at from a population size perspective – and an economic perspective on how they maintain this size of population..and a political one..on how it’s all organized so that it works.
    A society can’t operate by rhetoric – despite Obama’s view that it can. Islamic fascism is rhetoric – it’s vicious, ignorant and violent. It cannot organize an economy. It’s a utopian, magical solution.
    The ‘good society’, as Aristotle noted, must enable a good and productive life for its people. And he was strongly against socialism and ‘equal outcomes..”the differentiation of functions in a law of nature. There can be too much unity in a state”. And, he focused on the value of private property..that middle class.
    Meanwhile, Mubarak is holding on to power, and declaring that the violence in the streets was caused by the MB – when we know that it was his thugs. After all, why would the MB, who also want Mubarak out, attack the anti-Mubarak protesters?
    That is, Mubarak is playing the old game with the West – It’s either me, the dictator, or chaos and the MB. And I’ll bet that Obama will cave..just as he did with the Iranian demonstrations. I doubt if Bush would have done so.

  14. That is, Mubarak is playing the old game with the West – It’s either me, the dictator, or chaos and the MB. And I’ll bet that Obama will cave..just as he did with the Iranian demonstrations. I doubt if Bush would have done so.
    ~ET
    Bush would have done so too.
    In the 8 years he was president he made little actual headway for human rights anywhere, including the 2 new Islamic Republics that he helped establish.
    And yes a bit of free press and elections are not nothing, but the press can be co-opted/shut down easily and elections where Islamists can form the government are nothing to crow about after actually having to invade and occupy those countries.
    Interference means losing America’s relationship with the House of Saud and every other Islamic Kingdom in the ME.
    Any of these governments can shun America and turn to a new patron state like Russia or China for aid.
    These oligarchs have options.
    Military intervention would mean turning American voters against the government and also turning other ME states against the U.S.

  15. And here’s a great outline of the dilemma by Ed Morrissey over at Hot Air.
    http://hotair.com/archives/2011/02/03/egypt-starts-cracking-down-on-journalists-human-rights-workers/
    He writes that, as I noted, (and was derided for saying so) that
    “The Egyptian government broadened its crackdown on Thursday to the international news media and human rights workers, in an apparent effort to remove witnesses to the battle with antigovernment protesters.
    With fighting between anti- and pro-government forces escalating throughout the day, armed supporters of President Hosni Mubarak attacked foreign journalists, punching them and smashing their equipment. Men who protesters said were plainclothes police officers shut down news media outlets that had been operating in buildings overlooking Tahrir Square.”
    “The concerted effort to remove journalists lent a sense of foreboding to events in the square, where battles continued between the protesters and the Mubarak supporters, who human rights workers and protesters say are being paid and organized by the government. People bringing food, water and medicine to the protesters in the square were being stopped by Mubarak supporters, who confiscated what they had and threw some of it into the Nile.”
    Will the army move into supporting Mubarak and violently remove people and journalists from the streets?
    “If so, this move will put Barack Obama and the White House in a very uncomfortable position. They have spent the last few days dropping thinly-veiled demands for Mubarak to resign. If Mubarak survives this with the army’s assistance, will Obama cut off aid to Egypt — even if that means risking the end of diplomatic relations with Israel, which would certainly help Mubarak shore up his domestic support? Or does Obama continue that aid and risk losing the Egyptian people, who will certainly blame the US for continuing to prop up Mubarak, even if Mubarak leaves in September as promised?”
    Note that Mubarak is publicly saying that he can’t leave now, because the MB would take over. That’s the usual threat – it’s either me or the fascists.
    And I’ll bet that Obama, just as he did in Iran, will cave. Result? Islamic fascism, the ‘magical solution’ to oppression…will increase in the ME.

  16. “I look at the world’s economic state and helping those huge Muslim populations isn’t even on my “to do” list.”
    Oz, it wouldn’t be on mine either, if I was sure it would just implode. But it explodes too, which gave us 9/11. Also the world is also dependent on oil from the region ( back to economics again) and all McGuinty and Obama wanna do is build windmills. So it is in our self interest to have this on our “to do list” ; we aren’t doing it to be altruistic.

  17. So it is in our self interest to have this on our “to do list” ; we aren’t doing it to be altruistic.
    ~nomdeblog
    Well, altruism aside then, I’ll settle for supporting “the Strongman” rulers until we get our nuclear plants built, drilling back on line, and cut off immigration from these 3rd world toilets.
    After we get that done, the Middle Easterners should have been doing their part shedding Islam and reading up on various western constitutions in the mean time, we can then simply pull our support for “the Strongman” and be ready to go “Bomber Harris” on them if they still pose a threat to us.
    (so, ET, do you want a copy & paste duel because I could more than match your pundits but I’ve got more respect for Kate’s blog than to do it)

  18. ET
    [……..IF you are an arab, THEN you are an ignorant, illiterate, bigoted, fascist terrorist…]
    […….- and my constant suggestion is a federated single state of the two peoples, with each in charge of various areas and with a common govt for common interests………]
    Sorta funny the quickest reference I could lay my hands on the NG Atlas of 1981 lists Etgpts literacy rate at 54% and life expectancy at 44.
    My contacts in the Eygptian military suggest 90% iliteracy and the necessity to make basic literacy of recruits a priority. Without that anything other than basic drill is impossible.
    I see you have abandoned as untenable the “thousands of years” BS and adopted the genocidal sophistry of the one state solution….why can’t we all get along….because the so-called Palestinians are indeed ignorant, illiterate, bigoted, fascist terrorists.
    I don’t live in an ivory tower but have associate with both groups and shared meals and desperate situations….I recommend the IDF…..they will watch your back not seek and opportunity to put a knife in it.
    I realized after posting the bit about they guys on the horses and camels….my thought was…
    “typical gypos…bringing a whip instead of a sabre.”
    I rely on God sorting these sorts out.
    I support the Eygptian army’s arrest of foreign journalists. 50 years ago, we realized the best way to deprive the bad guys of a global propanda machine was to arrest the “journalists” or put them in harms way….

  20. oz – yes, the CIA world factbook is an excellent reference. It lists literacy in Egypt at 71.4%. Median age is 24. Life expectancy is 71.4 years.
    I don’t support Mubarak’s arrest of foreign journalists. These include BBC, CNN, FOX, and Canadian journalists among them. Mubarak is trying to hide his repression of the anti-Mubarak demonstrators. Why do you, sasquatch, consider this a good thing? The thugs with the weapons, the pro-Mubarak, are apparently his police and members of the public service. I guess you support Mubarak.
    It’s constructive to read SandMonkey’s posts (see Pajamas Media). He’s Egyptian and on the ground there. He says that Mubarak is a tyrant, is behind the attacks in the square, and is trying to say that the anti-Mubarak demonstrators are really ‘the Muslim Brotherood’- which SandMonkey denies. He says isn’t not about Islamism but freedom. I’d suggest that it’s worth reading.

  21. The Egyptian government broadened its crackdown on Thursday to the international news media and human rights workers, in an apparent effort to remove witnesses to the battle with antigovernment protesters
    End quote:———-
    Really because most of the media clips I’ve seen have large groups of hissing angry men threatening the media, not the government but the angry protestors holding foreign media accountable. ET you blame everything on the government whilst going all doe eyed on the Muslim Brotherhooders.

  22. Yes, et, I figured sasquatch could find that reference himself.
    Yes, Mubarak is a tyrant.
    Yes, his NDP is probably organizing the opposition to the demonstrators in “Liberty Square”.
    I’ve seen pictures of the ID/DL cards of many of the pro-Mubarak denonstrators and they have the green NDP symbol in the top right corner, but many of them, the majority don’t.
    Many pro-Mubarak demonstrators are small business owners.
    Those are the kind of people who have a stake in a stable society and who make up the solid core of a middle class in western nations.
    Too bad the Muslim Brotherhood is a secret organization and SandMonkey doesn’t know who is and who isn’t a member.

  23. Using ET/sandmonkey’s logic. If I went down to the local gay pride parade to protest against gay ‘marriage’ I can safely assume that all the others so gathered were also protesting against gay ‘marriage’. Cool. I hope the federal government is aware of the huge rallies against gay ‘marriage’ so they will change the law or else resign in disgrace.

  24. It’s constructive to read SandMonkey’s posts (see Pajamas Media).
    ET, SandMonkey did not post on PM, SandMonkey had an interview with Roger L Simon. His blog has been closed by Egyptian government but now it is on line again.
    I have read SM blog for couple of years. He is one of the more pro-democratic, Egyptian, bloggers. Before, he often said that Muslim Brotherhood has a lot of followers in Egypt, that the democrats or liberals are in the minority and that he, and the people who think like he does, are exception rather then rule in Egypt.
    Right now he is one of the people who started the present demonstrations. He is one of the people who called/twittered others to start demonstrations and he is now in the midst of demonstrations. He may be right that Muslim Brotherhood does not play a major role in present demonstrations, but it plays some role. Further, he is saying that demonstrators do not have leaders and their aim is to boot Mubarak out. Period. But what then? Protesters do not have many ideas about what to do then. Neither does SM. I bet, others do.
    I like SM blog. I like the blogger. I like his ideas. But at the moment he – naturally – lost his objectivity. I did not.
    OZ
    MB is not a “secret organization”. In Egypt, it is quite open. And quite popular among university students, I would even say, especially among university students. I think SM knows many people who belong to MB and he is friends with some of them. Although I am sure that he is rather pro-democracy guy himself.

  25. Wow, Kate, you and your little gremlins are real pieces of work. I guess ME democracy is good if it involves and invasion and exceedingly costly occupation and bad if it involves some disorder and confusion in the beginning.
    PS Anti-Mubarak protesters were pretty peaceful it was the paid-off pro-government thugs who were violent.

  26. MB is not a “secret organization”.
    ~ella
    Yes the Muslim Brotherhood is a secret organization.
    It has open leaders and open followers but the Muslim Brotherhood is a secret organization with secret members and a secret agenda and they operate secretly to influence individual people, organizations, and governments.
    Try reading the web about them and learn something before you spout off.
    The CIA is a secret organization too, but it is a U.S. government agency with openly known executives and openly known workers.
    However it has a secret side, with secret operations, secret agents, and secretly seeks to influence individuals, organizations, and governments.

  27. OZ
    MB does not have secret members, not in Egypt.
    It does have secret members in the countries it was/is banned – like in Tunisia or Syria. But we do not talk about MB outside of Egypt, in the countries were MB is banned or in EU, we talk about MB in Egypt.
    Of course MB operate to influence people, organizations and governments. In fact they are in the governments of many Middle Eastern countries. Every organization tries to influence people, MB is not an exception.
    It does not have “secret agenda” Their drive to impose sharia on the Middle East and elsewhere is actually understandable to everyone who reads, it is stated in their publications, it can be listened to during their speeches, but it is just not believed in the West.
    MB is as secret as communists or nazi were secret. And just like communists or Nazi had their agenda clear to anyone who could read, so is MB agenda quite clear. Communists or Nazi were not believed, MB is also not believed. Because, you see, “such agenda can not be true”.
    As for CIA – everybody would tell you that CIA is NOT a secret organization. It is a normal, governmental organization, whose aim is spying. Like Russian FSB , like Chinese Guanbu, or a French SGDN.
    A secret organization/society is a club or organization whose activities and inner functioning are concealed from non-members. The society may or may not attempt to conceal its existence. The term usually excludes covert groups, such as intelligence agencies or guerrilla insurgencies, which hide their activities and memberships but maintain a public presence. The exact qualifications for labeling a group as a secret society are disputed, but definitions generally rely on the degree to which the organization insists on secrecy,

  28. OZ
    MB does not have secret members, not in Egypt.
    Of course it does have secret members in Egypt, elle.
    The Egyptian national spokesman Essam El-Erian and another major city spokesman were arrested 2 Thursdays ago on January 27 for no other reason than that they are Muslim Brotherhood leaders.
    Give your head a shake.
    Check the net and you’ll find the Muslim Brotherhood is known to have a hardened underground network in Egypt that is designed to function when the expected government crackdowns come.

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