78 Replies to “What We Really Need Is Democracy.”

  2. Would Egypt be located in South America, then military junta would prevail. Otherwise, I don’t think there will be resolution like Iran ’79 where vacuum power sucks up extremist element. It looks like the mess may continue for years.

  3. He’s writing his opinions; the evidence on the street belies those opinions and that the ‘anti-Mubarak’ protesters are beating people..and beating them to death.
    The anti-Mubarak demonstrators have been remarkably non-violent so far. The violence has come from Mubarak’s thugs, who, as CNN said, have been ordered and paid to come and attack people.
    As for Ghannem – again, his opinion. There are fundamentalists in all areas and that doesn’t mean his words translate into reality – including closing the Suez Canal.
    I suggest that we listen to more knowledgeable speakers, such as El-Erian and Fouad Ajami, both referenced in other posts on this issue – and who reject the opinion of the author of this thread.
    The issue is not about Palestine and Israel; it’s about the economic and political structure of the Islamic nations in the ME – which have remained freeze-dried for generations in a tribal mode, maintained as such by dictatorships propped up by oil – and kept ‘stable’ by the support for this stability – by the West.
    The result of this refusal to allow change in the ME has been that the totally unacknowledged population explosion in these countries has not enabled that population to advance in economic and political strength. Instead, the ‘stable dictatorships’ have kept the population repressed, impoverished…to the boiling point.
    This repression is the basic cause of Islamic fascism – seen, dysfunctionally, as a utopian desire for a magical way out of this stasis – And, this repression is now the cause of the explosion of anger at their own repressive governments by the people in the ME. Finally, the anger is being turned against, not the West, but against their own repressive governments.

  4. CAIRO, Jan 28 (Reuters) – Egypt arrested two leaders of the Muslim Brotherhood and other members of the group overnight ahead of planned countrywide protests on Friday, their lawyer said.
    “The police detained Dr. Essam El-Erian and Dr. Mohamed Mursi, and there were others also detained. Many people, it’s hard to figure out the exact number,” said lawyer Abdel-Moniem Abdel-Maksoud. “The reason is of course known: it’s what is expected to happen tomorrow.”
    El-Erian is the Brotherhood’s main spokesman and Mursi is a prominent brotherhood leader.
    FROM
    http://tinyurl.com/6hhhnwo
    -Note that it was known that the “spontaneous” protests that errupted last Friday were “expected” and were anything but “spontaneous” as some people have been claiming.

  5. the anti Mubarak faction wants jihad?
    cueing american intervention to prop up mubarak in 3…2…1…

  7. cueing american intervention to prop up mubarak in 3…2…1…
    American interevention is politically untenable.
    Obama already has 2 wars on that side of the world that he has promised to wind down and yet hasn’t.
    Add to that the fact that military intervention is very expensive, plus the U.S. is broke, and then you’ve got sabre rattling going on in Korea.
    American intervention isn’t possible.
    Egypt has a very professional army(10th largest in the world) and doesn’t need outside intervention.
    The only question is: “Who does the Egyptian army want to support?”

  8. Thanks for that link Kate confirming the MB intentions.
    ET,
    Since when does the leftist CNN ever report anything that has not been pre-censored? I am surprised that you are quoting them as a reliable source. Please don’t start quoting Rachael Maddow.

  10. “Hosni, this is Barack.”
    “Who?”
    “Barack. I’m the big dog in D.C. Take your last name, get rid of the Mu, ya got Barack.”
    “You here in Cairo, dude?”
    “Nope, I’m in D.C.”
    “You comin’ to Cairo, dude?”
    “Maybe. If I need a photo op with a pyramid, or if Allah says go to Cairo, or if I get lost walking the dog.”
    “You should come here, dude. I show you the sights. I show you where Moses washed up on the river bank. I show you a nice part of the desert, nobody else knows about it.”
    “Nope, got important things ta do here, got the economy to finish wreckin’ then this global warming thing to fix.”
    “You wanna help me part the Red Sea?”
    “Nope, gotta walk the dog now. Good luck with your people, Mu-barack.”
    “Right back at ya, bro. Do you keep that secret service protection after you’re gone?”
    “Nope, I jog every day, I’m in shape, bro.”
    “We’ll see about that, dude.”

  11. Standard Left Wing Power Recipe
    Take/make a bunch of angry people.
    Claim leadership on the basis of being the solution.
    Get rid of the people that helped you to this point.
    Repress and oppress liberally, while focusing people’s attention on bogus enemies.
    I hope this isn’t how Egypt ends up; history doesn’t give me

  12. Standard Left Wing Power Recipe
    Take/make a bunch of angry people.
    Claim leadership on the basis of being the solution.
    Get rid of the people that helped you to this point.
    Repress and oppress liberally, while focusing people’s attention on bogus enemies.
    I hope this isn’t how Egypt ends up; history doesn’t give me much optimism.

  14. Common Kate, don’t spread lies…please, read the comments below the story. There is no ‘J’ sound in the Egyptian language! Try listening to voices coming out of the region for once, rather than western pundits (literally!).

  17. I am somewhat surprised that the Lieberals and Layton’s NDP, not to be confused with Egypt’s NDP, haven’t called for those blue helmeted Canucks to jump right in and peace keep.
    Whatever the outcome of this chaos, you can be sure of one thing: the Muslim Brotherhood will profit.

  18. “*Pleasing your enemies does not turn them into friends.”
    Translation?
    “Are the wages of magnanimity to our enemies and snubbing of our allies once again coming due?”
    …-
    “Obama’s 1979”
    “Are the wages of magnanimity to our enemies and snubbing of our allies once again coming due?”
    “bama’s deer-in-the-headlights, finger-to-the-wind, “I can’t believe this is happening to me” initial reaction to the Mubarak implosion has eerie precedents.
    After the debacle in Vietnam, Watergate, the Nixon resignation, and the Ford WIN buttons, voters were willing to bet on the smiling but unknown hope-and-change reformer from Plains, Georgia. Jimmy Carter’s campaign and his early presidential speeches on resetting foreign policy sounded uplifting. They were certainly a rebuke to the supposedly dark Nixon-Kissinger realpolitik and cloak-and-dagger intrigue. Indeed, Carter’s election marked a return to Wilsonian idealism that predicated American support for other nations on shared commitment to human rights and U.N. values. Secretary of State Cyrus Vance exuded probity and almost seemed to suggest at every stop, “I am not Henry Kissinger.”
    Carter’s new America was to entertain no more mindless, reductionist inordinate fear of Communism. Nor would we continue to be a cynical arms merchant to our allies and profit from the tools of death. Anti-Communist, anti-fundamentalist strongman modernizers like the Shah were suddenly antithetical to American values. In contrast, his radical Islamist enemies were little more than curious and confused intermediaries whose appreciated opposition to dictators would soon be eclipsed by serious European-like socialist reformers.”
    http://www.nationalreview.com/articles/print/258548
    (*SDA)

  19. Yeah, similar to the vid link at my site in which young Islamists say they hate Mubarak because he supports Israel.

  21. It is entirely logical that a suppressed people would lash out and probably make mistakes with friendly fire so-to-speak as they try to topple the cronyism of Mubarak and his army pals. Stability in Egypt was a myth, it was never stable. It was “contained”, as was Iraq by Saddam. Only bigots would view Arabs as incapable of striving for some form of self government, they deserve and are capable of getting out from under the containment.
    Furthermore as one of the commenters to the article states “I am an Egyptian woman…..Arabic is my mother tongue ….no one in Egypt wants war or even Jihad, this is a stupid thing to say. Muslims brothers have very limited influence in Egypt. This is not at all about Israel.”

  22. oz – I’m not sure if when you are referring to ‘Essam El-Erian’ that you are considering him the same person as the ‘El-Erian’ to whom I was referring.
    In my post in the other thread, when I referred to El-Erian, it was Mohamed El-Erian, the CEO of PIMCO (google it), a major financial institute in the US, who was interviewed by Bloomberg and Business News. El-Erian has nothing to do with the MB. I supplied his correct name and also the links in that post on the other thread. Again, surely you are not confusing the two?
    Oh, and you might be interested in reading El-Erian’s book (that’s Mohamed El-Erian), When Markets Collide, which won a Financial Times best book award.
    Again, just because someone has the same last name doesn’t mean they are the same person – so, I’m puzzled why you brought up your name and person.

  23. Something to be considered about these riots that I have yet to see mentioned in the MSM, is the poor.
    In North America and Europe, cities have small islands of poverty surrounded by affluence. The ghetto. In Egypt, Cairo is a city of 10 million, bigger than NYC. It has an island of affluence surrounded by a sea of abject poverty. Our poor are rich and highly educated compared to them.
    At least some of what we are seeing is what happens when 9 million poor get the jackboot lifted off their necks for a couple days.

  24. Someone should read all the comments below Kate’s link. The Christians are staying home. Even an article in the Red Star suggests many of those most in need of an economic improvement are staying home.
    http://www.thestar.com/news/world/article/932462–unrest-in-cairo-adds-to-daily-burden-of-many
    I still think the MB, Iran and associates are behind this, as it is unrealistic and naive to think that all this unrest simultaneously occurring in so many countries is pure chance and twitter organized in a few days.

  25. Roger Simon, writing in Pajamas Media, talks to Sandmonkey – who says,
    ” that only America can help at this point by fully backing the demonstrators against Mubarak.”
    Obama doesn’t have to say this in these same words, but he has to support the demonstrators in public and behind the scenes tell Mubarak to leave now.
    And “Some of things that you will hear in more detail in the interview are reassuring, but others decidedly not. On the reassuring side, “Sandmonkey” says the the Muslim Brotherhood is not a heavy presence at the demonstrations and that for the last four years they have been in a weakened position in Egypt, the least powerful of five Islamic organizations (although the most violent).”
    The interview is at Pajamas Media.

  26. Ever heard the expression “Demographics is destiny”?
    Egypt is a a country where , what, 5-10% of the country is arable ( i.e. aside from the waste land, it’s pretty tiny) something like _80_ million people live there. In 1800 we were talking 3,million, in 1960 20million
    They are not self sufficient in food to any degree, the median age is (25, their population is growing at 2% per annum. (Avg: 3 kids per woman)
    They are majority (90%) muslim.
    If you are sitting there going: Whoa! I think you may understand.
    It doesn’t matter who is in charge. This won’t end well. And it’s not the only country.

  27. http://www.cnbc.com/id/41403645
    Shippers Concerned Over Possible Suez Canal Disruptions
    Quote: “As violence has broken out in Egypt, concern has turned to the risk of the blocking of the Suez Canal or nearby pipelines, which could pose a threat to world energy supplies.” End quote.
    But, but, we have it on good authority from some posters here that such a thing could never happen.
    I believe that major problems arise when academic dissertations are presented based on the writings/speeches of ‘Professor/Doctor Whoever’, an Egyptian currently residing in Paris/London/New York, and who sounds so reasonable while making prognostications based on economic/political theory.
    Those of us who’ve been in the M.E. and listened to the fantasy ideas of English speaking, and thus at least semi-educated, individuals from that area, have long wondered what the totally uneducated fellaheen believe to be true. There are a lot of them, they’re volatile, unreasonable, and can be moved to commit acts that we would refer to as “Cutting off one’s nose to spite one’s face”.

  28. Please folks ignore ET. She is channeling Ralf Wiggum and her analysis is kind of “When I grow up I want to be a caterpillar” ish If you take all the recent history of the region and all the recent precedents toss them in the trash then plug your ears and yell ‘LA LA LA’ loud enough you too can come up with ET’s analysis. And if you have a big enough ego you can repeat it over and over and over again despite overwhelming expert analysis from people who have lived and worked in the region and who have actual intelligence reports from people on the ground. All it takes is too much time in academe and an inability to bring in the “Aw S**t” factor and your analysis is about as reliable as one of Kate’s giant stinking fans.
    Personally I would love to see vibrant democracies throughout the Middle East. However from talking to people over there I am convinced they don’t want democracy over there. Oh they want more say in their government but they don’t really want what you and I would recognize as a democracy. This ‘uprising’ in Egypt is less about democracy than it is about putting in a new dictator that more accurately reflects the rioters point of view. The dictator is gone! Long live the Dictator!

  29. Fred2 makes good points. Historically it would have been the local ecology that would have driven both the population size and the type of local economy that developed. That local economy would have been driven the size of the population. However, a perversity set in with oil in the region, oil changed the formula. It’s partially true to say “it’s all about oil”. With oil funding flowing into the region along with advanced medical technology the population has exploded … but by outside influence, not from self sufficiency. That is even true of countries without much oil but ones that are strategically positioned like Egypt where we want the Suez Canal to move the oil and keep the commodity price as low as possible. That’s why we encouraged the “containment” that those despots provided. Also, during the cold war it was in our interest to “contain” as much as possible, so unfortunately we had to back some bad actors.
    But as Fred2 alludes to, there is no way these countries, without outside capitalist funding from the successful West propping them up, would have ever had the population size that is there now. In short they are way over populated. Can a middle class entrepreneurial society emerge fast enough to create real jobs is the question. It is possible but it will be risky and a very bumpy ride.

  30. fred2 – exactly right; demographics is vital.
    And Egypt’s population has exponentially increased, far beyond its own arable land’s carrying capacity. But to say that ‘this won’t end well’ is puzzling. After all, there are plenty of other countries that must import food – and Canada is one of them. We must import food not because of our population size but because of our climate. Where do all our oranges and vegetables come from during the six months of winter?
    What nations must do, is provide some economic goods and services from its own population, so that it can function as a MARKET economy. Trade this ..for that. The oil rich dictatorships have traded oil for food, and this has enabled them to maintain their repression over their people.
    The problem in Egypt is that they don’t have those oil reserves; their trade goods, so to speak, are the tolls on the use of the Suez Canal, tourism, and some agriculture. They’ve then relied, heavily, on foreign aid.
    What Egypt has failed to do- and these demonstrations are the result – is develop a middle class of small to medium private businesses that can generate services and goods for the market. That would mean that the nation could purchase its foods, as we do in Canada in the winter – as well as other goods. Canada, for instance, has a robust export economy and is constantly focused on developing more goods and services to export…
    nemo2 – I continue to think that closing or interfering in the Suez Canal is a near impossibility. That’s because Egypt depends on the income from there for basic food and other supplies. Anyone who closed that canal would lead to food problems…and riots by the people against whoever closed it.
    Oh, and don’t discount the words of ‘academics’ who are, besides being experienced in economics, also exceedingly familiar with the ME.
    Again, the people who live in the ME are not all ignorant, uneducated, bigoted animals who require ‘firm leadership’ to constrain their basic vicious natures.
    Ken – who was behind the Tea Parties? Was it not a grassroots movement? Do you believe, as did Nancy Pelosi, that it wasn’t the people..but was ‘astroturf’..and managed by anti-American fundamentalists? Can’t these ME demonstrations, in the day of the internet and twitter phone, be the voice of the people? Do they always have to be sheep to be led?

  31. The Moscow Times
    http://www.themoscowtimes.com/opinion/article/the-new-iron-curtain/430205.html
    Quote: “We are standing at the threshold of a new world. If the fundamentalists get their way, secular authoritarian Middle East regimes will be replaced by Islamist extremist, totalitarian ones. As a result, oil tanker ships will have to sail around Cape Horn, the West will have to urgently search for alternatives to oil as an energy source, Russia will lose the North Caucasus, and Israel will be wiped off the face of the Earth.”

  32. ET says “nemo2 – I continue to think that closing or interfering in the Suez Canal is a near impossibility. That’s because Egypt depends on the income from there for basic food and other supplies. Anyone who closed that canal would lead to food problems…and riots by the people against whoever closed it.”
    …………….
    As I noted on the other thread yesterday, Israel will be blamed for any sinking of a ship or ships and the subsequent blocking of the canal, and this WILL be believed by ‘the masses’, and the masses far outweigh the enlightened academics who talk solely to each other.

  33. More to Egypt than Cairo…
    http://www.aina.org/news/20110202205758.htm
    “News of a massacre of two Christian Coptic families by Islamists just emerged from Upper Egypt with the return of the Internet connections after a week of Internet blackout by the Egyptian regime. The massacre took place on Sunday, January 30 at 3 PM in the village of Sharona near Maghagha, Minya province. Two Islamists groups, aided by the Muslim neighbors, descended on the roof of houses owned by Copts, killing eleven Copts, including children, and seriously injuring four others.
    Anba Agathon, Bishop of Maghagha, told Coptic activist Dr. Mona Roman in a televised interview on Al-Karma TV that the killers are their neighbors, who seized the opportunity of the mayhem prevailing in Egypt and the absence of police protection to slaughter the Copts. He said that he visited today the four injured Copts, who escaped death despite being shot, at Maghagha General Hospital and they told him that they recognized the main attackers as they come from the same village of Sharona. They gave the Bishop details of what happened.
    …..In addition, they looted everything that was in the two Coptic houses, including money, furniture and electrical equipment. They also looted livestock and grain.”

  34. According to MSM the only violent protestors are the progovernment ones, contrary to the truth of course it’s the Muslim Brohooders rampaging and raging but as usual libeal media blames the side they are routing against. They best be careful the people will turn on the lying MSM soon enough, and the truth shall be heard.

  35. http://en.rian.ru/world/20110203/162433368.html
    Quote: “Egypt’s banned Muslim Brotherhood movement has unveiled its plans to scrap a peace treaty with Israel if it comes to power, a deputy leader said in an interview with NHK TV.
    Rashad al-Bayoumi said the peace treaty with Israel will be abolished after a provisional government is formed by the movement and other Egypt’s opposition parties.
    “After President Mubarak steps down and a provisional government is formed, there is a need to dissolve the peace treaty with Israel,” al-Bayoumi said.”

  36. gosh, rose, it’s great that you have a direct access to Truth. Wow.
    nemo2 – al-Bayoumi can say what he likes; wishful words are not the same as reality. Obama, after all, told us that not only the oceans would cease to rise and peace would exist on earth, but also that IF we passed His stimulus, unemployment wouldn’t rise above 8.5%. heh.
    And what are you then suggesting? That the Egyptian people must remain under dictatorships forever – because, without such, they are such a rabid, ignorant and bigoted people that left on their own, they will ‘dissolve the peace treaty with Israel’?

  37. ET
    [……Oh, and don’t discount the words of ‘academics’ who are, besides being experienced in economics, also exceedingly familiar with the ME…….]
    Yeah! Right! Especially when these same “academics” spout such nonsense as the Palestinians having occupied Palestine for thousands of years and that the Jews are recent illegal migrants.
    ET
    […..Again, the people who live in the ME are not all ignorant, uneducated, bigoted animals who require ‘firm leadership’ to constrain their basic vicious natures…..]
    Not all but they do represent the majority…who are none-the-less irrelvant. They are not bureaucrats, or the military and are illiterate. They can be mobilized by the Immams and the MB to throw rocks but at the end of the day are irrelevant.
    The same “academics” style the pro-Mubarack mab as paid astroturf…while ignoring the reality that the unrest is MB astroturf. Those guys on the horses and camels with their whips were very impressive…..iconic even.
    Joe
    That was an excellant well written post. Sometimes I suspect ET wears a hijab. Call it Takiya or Sophistry—-BS is still BS even if well written.
    My contacts in Eygpt…mostly copts….indicate that the copts are guarding their homes/lives not protesting and genuinely fear the MB staged protests….as a prelude to genocide.

  38. Well ET I rely on bloggers not Liberal CNN for news on Egypt, keep watching CNN though they love the Brohood.
    Sas, the Islamofacists have killed and looted numerous copt’s homes sadly they’re living in terror of those lovely dear humane supporters of Mo-brohood.
    I’ve no doubt Hamas is behind the violence, day two they announced they were sending their savages across the border and where Hamas goes killings commence.

  39. Why is it that whenever a strong leader emerges in the Middle East or Africa for that matter, he invariably turns out to be a brutal, repressive, rabid thuggish dictator. The Shah of Iran, Mubarak, Saddam Hussein, Idi Amin, Khadafi and the maniacal what’s-his-name in Iran come to mind. Why does it seem impossible for a strong leader in these regions to be wise, benevolent and beloved by the people? Is it because such a leader would not be able to remain in power without holding a jackboot on the people’s throats? You would think that the citizenry, regardless of where they live would welcome such a leader. Are such potential leaders simply non-existent in these regions or are the people content with dictatorial regimes? Common sense would suggest the former since the thought of anyone being happy with the likes of Saddam Hussein is unfathomable.
    I think it’s a pretty safe bet that whoever emerges as leader if Mubarak steps aside will be just as bad or probably worse.

  40. ET, yes I believe the Tea Party was a grassroots organization, but can not be convinced that the almost simultaneous demonstrations in about six different countries whose lower classes do not have the sophistication of the average Tea Party member was organized at the local level. Some international organization is controlling this. There is just too much coincidence.
    I am quite sure that the Coptic family pictured in the Toronto Star article or their Muslim neighbours do not spend a lot of time twittering.
    nemo2 @ 10:06, I think the Moscow Times has summed up the long term ramifications of what is happening.
    There was also one radio interview yesterday that said many of the pro-Mubarak demonstrators were small business people whose livelihoods were being seriously jeopardized by the week long shut down of commerce. That is not to say that their were not a number of Mubarak’s people involved or had not organized the counter demonstration.
    The one sure thing about a revolution is that nothing is sure.

  41. Biffjr “Why is it that whenever a strong leader emerges in the Middle East or Africa for that matter, he invariably turns out to be a brutal, repressive, rabid thuggish dictator.”
    There are several success stories emerging, here’s one:
    Feb. 2 (Bloomberg) — Rwanda’s economy expanded 7.4 percent in 2010 and is estimated to grow by 7 percent this year, Finance Minister John Rwangombwa said.
    Apparently when the leadership of Rwanda gets off a plane in New York, instead of heading for the UN to grovel for a handout from the despots in return for cronyism and votes, the leaders head for a meeting with the CEOs of various Fortune 500 hundred companies to invest in Rwanda and it’s working.
    In short many of the institutions of the West, like the UN, are part of the corruption that holds back these countries. That’s because the “UN’s oil for food” programs benefited despots and they wanted to keep Saddam in power to keep the gravy train rolling.

  42. Rose, exactly, CNN certainly would not be my first choice of a media organization if I wanted an objective opinion.

  43. ET says “And what are you then suggesting? That the Egyptian people must remain under dictatorships forever – because, without such, they are such a rabid, ignorant and bigoted people that left on their own, they will ‘dissolve the peace treaty with Israel’?”
    From Ayaan Hirsi Ali: Quote: “Sister Aziza told us about the Jews. She described them in such a way that I imagined them as physically monstrous: they had horns on their heads and noses so large they stuck right out of their faces like great beaks. Devils and djinns literally flew out of their heads to mislead Muslims and spread evil. Everything that went wrong was the fault of the Jews. The Iraqi tyrant Saddam Hussein, who had attacked the Islamic Revolution in Iran, was a Jew. The Americans, who were giving money to Saddam, were controlled by Jews. The Jews controlled the world, and that was why we had to be pure: to resist this evil influence. Islam was under attack, and we should step forward and fight the Jews, for only if all Jews were destroyed would peace come for Muslims.” End quote.
    One of the nicest people I ever met was a black half-Sudanese, half-Egyptian, in Riyadh – he was, however, of the opinion that “All Jews should be killed”, the fact that he’d never met, never spoken to, and perhaps never even SEEN a Jew was immaterial.
    It ain’t the people it’s the religion.

  44. @ biffjr: You mention the Shah of Iran; I spent a short time there when he was in power, and perhaps you might want to read about his White Revolution where he began to institute many much needed reforms.
    Yes, he may have been brutal, by Western standards, but most of this ‘brutality’ was directed towards those revolutionary groups who ended up in power, and I think we all know how THAT turned out.

  45. et,
    You were referring to the Californian Mohamed El-Erian as someone experienced in Egypt says, no, the MB will not take control of the country.
    I know Essam El-Erian is a different person.
    He is the Egyptian Muslim Brotherhood’s spokesman who is on the ground in Cairo and thinks the MB will take control of Egypt.
    I know who I would believe and it isn’t some PIMCO CEO who has a vested interest in stabilizing PIMCO’s/Goldman Sach’s stocks/bonds.
    You throw a blind bet Mohamed El-Erian ante in the pot and I raise you an Essam El-Erian.
    The Muslim Brotherhood killed Anwar Sadat and Al-Zawahiri, the head of al-Qaeda, is a member of the Egyptian Muslim Brotherhood.

  46. Oz, thanks for the correction, don’t have much time for commenting on these threads and sometimes the mistakes slip by. Thanks again.

  47. ET
    We should “not discount words of academics”? The same academics who told us that protests against Ahmadinejad are “made in US”? Who told us that Revolutionary Guards are not supporting Hamas? Who told that majority of people of Iran hate US?
    Please, spare me the words of academics. Majority of them are spewing their own preconceptions.

  48. sasquatch – so, all academics say that the Palestinians have occupied the area for thousands of years and the Jews are illegal migrants’?
    Who says that? I certainly don’t. I say that ‘first footstep’ is not a legitimate reason to claim landownership; after all, if that were the case, then all of America ought to be ceded to the natives. I say that one has to consider the reality; Israel exists and the Palestinians exist and you can’t kick either out as privileged to live there – and my constant suggestion is a federated single state of the two peoples, with each in charge of various areas and with a common govt for common interests.
    Kindly prove that the majority in the ME are ignorant, bigoted and illiterate. The literacy rate in Egypt is 71%. And bigotry is not confined to the people in the ME.
    Kindly show how the anti-Mubarak crowd are ‘paid MB astroturf’. I know this is your opinion, but how about some proof? [The horses and camels were pro-Mubarak.]
    And joe’s rant? Comparing me to someone..I’ve never heard of the name but I’m asssuming it’s insulting. How did those insults show his intelligence, his adherence to facts and reason? Hmmm?
    I’m focusing on two things: demographics and economic mode – and that’s almost never discussed here. Instead, all we get are the conclusions that IF you are an arab, THEN you are an ignorant, illiterate, bigoted, fascist terrorist…and require firm authoritarian control to keep your brutish nature in check’. Sheesh. How’s that for intelligent debate?
    As I said – that’s the same view held of blacks, jews and women in the past.
    Rose – I certainly don’t rely simply on blogs for information. After all, there are plenty of opinions out there – and they are hardly all data based and reasoned arguments. Do you go to MoveOn and Daily Kos and others? I go to multiple sources: I get the visual images from FOX and CNN, I get opinions from blogs, and I read articles written by authorities who know the economy and the political and demographic infrastructure, and I rely on numerous (not one) reports by people on the ground (See James May at Pajamas Media comments).
    Go to National Review, Pajamas, Daily Caller, Real Clear Politics for a few sources for data based and reasoned debate.
    nemo2 – you can find individuals in any religion and any ethnic group who say similar bigoted and ignorant statements about other peoples. What’s your point?
    Oz – Mohamed El-Erian is not a ‘blind bet’ but a highly skilled economist (PHD in economics), and very knowledgeable about Egypt and the ME. He’s wealthy. Does that mean that his views, which are global, informed, based on a thorough knowledge of the economies of the whole region – are irrelevant? Are you anti-wealth? Like Obama? What’s wrong with wealth?
    So you think that the rants of an Islamic fascist are more valid than someone who actually can see outside of the blindness of such fanaticism? Again, because a fanatic wants a particular result, doesn’t mean that such a result will occur. We get lots of people preaching on the streets that IF we don’t obey the word of God, then, we will all succumb to the end of the world..posited as, always, next year. Do you accept their words?
    If some of you would simply move out of your bigotry, and consider that the people in the ME are not just ignorant, illiterate fanatics, you might want to focus on facts rather than fiction.
    The facts are based around demographics and the economic structure…and the accompanying political structure. No-one considers these three areas. All we get for discussion are opinions that are obviously outside of debate: the arabs are all illiterate, ignorant brutes. How about dealing with what can be debated?
    The population base that has exploded to far beyond the carrying capacity of not merely Egypt, but elsewhere.
    The facts that the ME has not upgraded its economy to enable more self-sufficiency among the people..and enabled a productive middle class of small to medium size private businesses (and I don’t mean corner stores)..
    The facts that the ME has retained a tribal (two-class) political structure that has put all power in a dynastic elite and has kept the people dependent, impoverished and unable to, on their own, effect changes.
    What happens when such a dysfunctional structure is retained – by dictators using oil funds to repress? And when the west supports these dictators because ‘they keep the area and people stable’…? A people without the power to make any meaningful changes in their lives will turn to magic. God or Magical Powers..will save us. So, they’ve turned to Islamic fascism, which tells them that IF they are pure (everyone behaves the same), THEN…poverty will disappear, and..the oceans will cease to rise and peace will appear on earth. Hmmm.
    That’s a ‘bandaid for the mind’ solution.
    It won’t work. You can’t retreat from reality into magic – good magic or bad magic. You have to live within the actual world. And the actual world is your population base, how you sustain that population, and how you politically, enable that population to govern itself.
    These are the issues which ought to be addressed. But, with people here convinced that all the people of the ME are illiterate slaves who must be controlled….

  49. Let me see, ET: You call me a bigot, anti-wealth, am I missing any ad hominem slurs that you have labeled me?
    I’ll remember that the next time you start whining about ad hominems.
    Essam El-Erian is an Islamic fanatic, who wants the Muslim Brotherhood to take over Egypt.
    Mohamed El-Erian is a money fanatic, who wants to protect his position as CEO of PIMCO and his position on the board of Goldman Sachs not to forget his position with the IMF.
    (of course he has investments to protect too)
    Not exclusive positions by both individuals, and they are not disinterested positions by both individuals either.
    For all we know they could both be Muslim Brotherhood members and close relatives.
    Did you know, ET, that there are some really really rich Islamic fanatics out there and that some of them hide their fanaticism really well?
    Hiding their fanaticism makes them more effective when they say, “Don’t worry, all is well.”

  50. “A people without the power to make any meaningful changes in their lives will turn to magic. God or Magical Powers..” ….
    Or turn to Obama?
    ET wouldn’t your observation also work for the people who filled in the blank slate that Obama gave them and voted for him because in their frustration with Washington they basically put an Obama “bandaid on their mind” and just voted for him, for Hope and Change and “magical powers”?
    In other words the psychological condition you describe isn’t just prevalent with Arabs; it is in fact a human condition to fantasize for something better. That’s normal isn’t it? …At least until you discover you’ve voted for the Obamarx gang or Mugabe and his thugs or whatever and then you have to reflect and change your mind according to the new information.
    But for people to state that all Arabs are ignoramuses is bigotry. If we said that about Jews for instance (who are essentially Arabs, descended from Abraham, as are Christians and Muslims) then all hell would break loose and so it should.

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