There was a request in the comments to open a thread on the Robert Latimer case, back in the news today as he was denied day parole. This is your opportunity to discuss – but please be respectful of each other’s opinions. I have my own position – that what he did was a crime, but the sentence an injustice – but I understand these questions go to people’s core beliefs.
Story here for our US readers. It falls short in describing the level of pain Tracy was suffering, the surgery that was planned for her, and her deteriorating condition at the time of her death.
On topic links are ok.
Everyone please read…
Everyone please read…
http://www.robertlatimer.net/story/tracysillness.htm
When we put all rapists, murderers, and thugs (regardless of race) away with as much ferocity as the justice system has shown Latimer then I will again respect it.
Until then our justice system is a joke, and Latimer’s story continually exposes it as so..
I heard on the news the other day, that Latimer was going to have his hearing regarding day parol.
That he would be denied it, did not even cross my mind. Foolish me.
Here is a man who took a life.
Yes, he took a life.
And he could not have come to that easily, watching what his daughter went through over all those years.
To think that he could be a danger to society in being released during the day, or that he did not show enough remorse to suit the panel, makes my heart sink for him, and his family.
I have sympathy for the pain the Latimers’ felt, including Tracy – who never asked to be put to death. That Robert seems to still stubbornly believe that what he did was in his daughter’s best interest seems reasonable grounds to deny him parole. I’ve a niece who in many ways is in as bad/worse health than Tracy (for all of her 10 years of life so far) – I know her parents find some solace that this unrepentant man is facing justice for his actions.
The discrepancy between how he has been treated and other criminals is a travesty, but one that will not be fixed by erasing his sentence. Rather it will be remedied when the others are properly brought to justice for their crimes.
We don’t even allow our animals to suffer in that kind of pain. I cannot imagine watching your child suffer through this disease and surgeries. The years that this man sit in jail are nothing compared to the jail of h@ll that his little girl lived in. It shows his principals are still strong and his belief in what he did is still strong. The parole board will never break this man. I personally think it is wrong to keep him locked up as he would not be a threat to anyone else.
This is indeed a tragic situation. Torn between providing relief from pain and suffering and the sanctity of human life. In my opinion — when all is said and done, we should protect life no matter how deplorable it may be. Who should choose — even in a situation like this where a loving family member intends to provide relief? And I’m not saying the punishment fits the crime as in this situation.
frenchie says it best.
I’m still trying to get my head around the fact that this man killed a loved one out of a sense of compassion and is imprisoned, but hundreds of women do the same thing to their fetuses every day
without a thought.
RB — I did read the article (http://www.robertlatimer.net/story/tracysillness.htm. ) — thank you. Indeed tragic ! Many ethics issues to consider.
We have reports regarding a murderer who shot and killed a wonderful man in Ottawa. He was judged not able to understand his actions as he is a schizophrenic. He is back out and has recently been accused of attacking a border guard in the US. His voices tell him what to do. He is free amongst us. did he show remorse?
I guess the word is out–show remorse and you can get away with anything? Funny, I didn’t see Chretien show remorse over adscam, yet he is free, well relatively free–we still have to pay his pension.
The treatment of Robert Latimer shows how injust our so-called ‘Justice’ system is. You have to play the game to get parole. Sick!
Plain and simple the parole board that denied him bail is wrong.
Latimer was denied bail solely for the reason that he us unrepentant about his actions.
The parole board has decided that Latimer does not deserve parole because he is not begging forgiveness. This is nothing but hubris on the part of this board and I’d suggest an element of spite and vindictiveness directed to someone who is not going to bow to their authority and does not recognize them as holding a moral high ground.
They are in short, jackasses of the first order.
Robert Latimer does not owe the members of the parole board anything.
It is plain that Latimer poses NO threat to society and is perfectly capable of returning to society as a peaceful and productive member.
Now I’d like to know how many career criminals, habitual sex offenders and violent sociopaths these same people have released from prison simply because they received the expected pleas of contrition or excuses of victimhood.
I don’t have a problem with him being found guilty of a crime and sentenced accordingly. The problem I have is the hypocrisy in the system his case has exposed.
Whether or not you agree with his position, he has taken a principled stand and thus is not remorseful for what he’s done. This is the basis for denying his parole; his lack of remorse. Then you have completely un-principled criminals who lie to the parole board, fake remorse, and get parole only to re-offend. And then the next time they’re before the parole board, they lie again and get out. Let’s face it, there’s very little chance of Mr. Latimer re-offending.
I think Mr. Latimer should have been granted day parole.
I think it would have been reasonable to grant the man ( and his family ) parole. I admire him for the fact that he will not play their game. Would everyone please contact their MP and suggest we get some proper representation of the public on the parole board.
He could have acted contrite. He could have expressed remorse and regret. He could have gotten that parole. Instead, he told the truth and in so doing honored the selfless act of love that ended his daughters life and took away his freedom. If I am ever in a position similar to that of his daughter, I can only pray that I have someone who loves me enough to accept imprisonment rather than allow me to continue suffering.
As someone who at one time was in such bad shape that my best prognosis was assisted living in a group home, I’m glad that no one took the initiative to gas me to death in their pickup truck. There turns out to be a helluva a difference between what doctors say is possible for a patient and what the patient can actually accomplish.
Mr. Latimer murdered his daughter in cold blood, and I’m sorry that we had no death penalty to apply to him. Nothing less is acceptable in my opinion.
In my opinion Latimer should have never served a day in prison.
This judicial system in this country is so back assward that serial killer Karla Hamolka will serve less time for her part in butchering her sister than Latimer for ending the misery of his daughter.
The treatment of Latimer is a black mark on Canada.
If Latimer thought he what he did was right and based upon some sick principle, why did he try to hide the fact he murdered?
At any rate, he’s a rapist and a murderer and deserves the death penalty. He’s getting off lightly.
And ET, if you feel so much pain over this issue, perhaps, in the interests of compassion, you should be euthanized.
I believe that anyone who feels that keeping Tracy alive was the humane thing to do is deluded. How are you respecting the sanctity of life by allowing a child (infant in a lot of ways) to suffer? That’s barbaric.
If Mr. Latimer simply wanted to be free from his obligations as a parent, he could have walked away from the family years ago. Instead, he’s done what he feels was the compassionate choice, out of love for his daughter, and has paid a massive personal price for that.
Mr. Latimer deserves our support, and compassion. I cannot fathom how anyone with children could condemn him given the circumstances.
Latimer in jail meanwhile Sven Robinson, convicted thief and admitted participant in Sue Rodriquez mercy killing……. runs around a free man.
I guess we should be consistent and put some more farmers in jail for selling wheat.
Ol Hoss, you are beyond senility. Time for your trip to the glue factory.
There should never be dead squirrels in the world. They are cute and harmless! We should respect them and leave them alone:)
Those parole board Liberal appointees should take guidance from one of their role models, Stalin. Instead of mental torture they should just physically beat the prisoner until he signs a statement expressing the correct remorse they deem adequate.
First, what I am most shocked about is that he was convicted of _second_ instead of first degree murder. He obviously committed his crime with malice aforethought (it was ‘planned and deliberate’) and took steps to conceal his guilt after he had done so.
Second, and in this I will likely appear cold and unfeeling and probably offend a number of people in the process, I think the fact that he so loved his daughter and she was suffering &c &c are irrelevant when considering the facts of the case. The law in this country is clear: ___NO___ individual has the right to decide when to end the life of another _through homicide_. This is as true for him as it should have been for whomever helped Sue Rodriguez kill herself, though at least in her case she was an adult capable of articulating her wishes (though if the assistance was of a substantive nature, the fact that she requested it is also irrelevant — no one can consent to be killed). This is black-letter law. Latimer took the life of another sentient being; what we think of the quality of that life is immaterial, as that is not our determination to make; he received the mandatory sentence of life; he deserves to do his 25 years.
Don’t misunderstand me. Canadian justice is in many respects f—-d. Because it is so, however, does not mean that we should be affording leeway to an admitted murderer.
How do his wife and other children feel about this, anyways? I’ve never seen the media report anything about their reaction to this.
Adune, your comments are spot on. The Latimer family has endured more pain than any of us will ever know.
They also have had to pay the ongoing price of those actions regardless of any rationalization. Ol hoss. you are an Asshole of the highest level. Your comments are idiotic. Latimer is a rapist? I hope you nor anybody you know, is ever put into a situation that this family has had to go through so publicly.
There is a poll over at the globe site.
http://www.theglobeandmail.com/
Do you agree with the National Parole Board’s decision to keep Robert Latimer in prison?
Please go vote no. Let them know that they are wrong to hold this caring compassionate and brave man away from his family.
Ol Hoss, you are beyond senility.
Watch yourself, old age and treachery will overcome youth and vigour every time.
And I cannot imagine how any parent can consider it humane to kill my child – I think these are the ‘core beliefs’ Kate identifies that unless we can resolve these, we will inevitably arrive at different conclusions. I absolutely agree about the hypocrisy, especially that of our elected officials, who seem to be above justice.
I am not happy about Latimer continuing to serve time (I don’t take pleasure in his punishment), but I do think it’s the right thing to do. It’s not so much that he, specifically, poses a continued threat. It’s that he sets an example for others who might be tempted to do the same kind of thing. Since he’s the one who set the example, he’s the one who needs to serve the time. I wish there was a good option here, but I think Latimer closed the door to picking the best of bad options when he took his daughter’s life. What must she have been thinking while her father was doing this? There are many cognitively-aware people who cannot communicate what they are aware of (I’ve met several) through traditional means. There is a chance that Tracy fully knew that her father was killing her while it was taking place.
As a Bible-believing pastor, I filter pretty much everything through God’s Word. As a father, I have great compassion for a dad who has seen his daughter suffer for years, something I have never had to do. However, the most important fact here is that Tracy was created in the image of God, as are we all. To take Tracy’s life, no matter how well-intentioned, is to strike at the image of God in her. This is where the atheist misses the point, and the importance and value of every human life; we are not well-evolved protoplasm; we are God’s masterpieces. If Robert Latimer recognized the true issue here and repented of it, I would say, let the man out; unfortunately, he does not, and is stubborn in his insistence he did the right thing.
Your comments are idiotic. Latimer is a rapist?
http://www.chninternational.com/chn1-3.htm
Geothermal–right on. Why was Robinson not treated the same way as Latimer? Is it who you are that really determines our fate at the hands of the Injustice System? You get the justice you can afford? Sue was as much, if not more, disabled than Tracey–was she not worthy of the same ‘protection’ from the system?
*
“sean says… I’m glad that no one took the initiative to gas me to death
in their pickup truck. I’m sorry that we had no death penalty to apply
to him. Nothing less is acceptable in my opinion.”
yeah… you’re all about compassion and respect for life…
that sure comes through loud and clear.
*
I share Kate’s view.
My blood boils when I think about this case. It seems our justice system always makes the wrong judgements.
They are far too easy on the real criminals, and yet show an incredible inability to understand the more complex cases such as this one.
In general I have always viewed the legal profession as somewhat over-hyped. Lawyers, judges etc. would like the population to believe that they are supremely clever and that the law is too sophisticated for mere mortals to understand the decisions that are made.
When in fact, if you pull back the curtain, you discover it’s not nearly as magnificent as they want people to think.
I know a lawyer in town who regularly gets hardened criminals off the hook, on parole, light sentences etc, and he’s proud of it (and has made a fortune in the process).
Yet Latimer still sits in jail….
Hopefully one day things will improve.
…sorry if this has already been said, and I’ll try to find a link and post it later when I have a break, but it should be known that Robert did not have any financial motivations for his actions… Tracy for a while was in a care facility that Robert easily afforded… this might sound like a strange point, but I’m making it because some people assume he killed her for reasons other than his concern for her life/suffering, and after writing a research paper on the case as an undergraduate student I didn’t believe that one bit.
…which still doesn’t mean people should be allowed to kill their children of course, but to my mind that’s the heart of the issue… various sites/people have tried to slander Robert and paint him as selfish/evil, instead of misguided… if I can find that paper maybe I’ll post it on blogspot or something…
Later that is.
Latimer was in an impossible situation. Human compassion clearly begged for a release from suffering for his daughter.
Doctors are sworn to preserving life.
The state tolerates no person assuming the authority to take a life.
The state will not release Latimer who insists he did the correct and humane thing.
The state may release Latimer if he admits he is evil and shows great remorse and swears on a stack of bibles he would never do the same thing again given the same situation.
Latimer*s honesty has it*s price. = TG
While I can feel compassion for Latimer, having lived through 8 surgeries in the first year with my oldest, there was an end in sight for my child along with a chance for a pain free life, unlike Tracy’s situation. I certainly don’t condone what he did, but on the other hand his motives were based on love for his daughter. To those who say he was selfish, I ask you why did he not turn his daughter over to the “state” at birth and walk away from any involvement? I know others who have institionalized their children for far less severe disabilities. Instead this family undertook the care and raising of their daughter because they loved her. They were the ones sitting with her through many a night. They knew her condition better than the social worker popping by for the bi-monthly 15 minute visit. In addition, he has not gotten off with a slap on the wrist. He’s paid a higher price than most for this crime before he ever went behind bars. It’s time to move on and let him return to society.
Pastor,
No offence but your logic is circular. It isn’t that the athiest “misses the point” of man being made in God’s image but that if they beleived that then they wouldn’t be athiests…
If you don’t believe in God then you don’t believe that man was created (by God) in God’s image.
A few other points:
Sean, your situation is different than Latimer’s. I can understand that those who are disabled or gravely injured would fear the extention of Euthanasia to Canada. There are legitimate concerns. But in voicing society’s rejection of Euthanasia, he has been punished more than some serial killers and every single pedophile. When serial child rapists get a few months and this guy gets life the system is an ass.
The system can convict Latimer but still show compassion for him. When the worst vermin in society are treated with more kindness and understanding than latimer you have a society that has lost its way.
Second, for the rest of you, walk a mile in Latimer’s shoes. Pious rantings are easy. Living with what that family has gone through is not.
Thirdly, if ever I’m in the same situation as Tracy is, pull the plug. You may feel the same way at some point but not be in the situation to voice it. At that point you will hope for someone to show the kind of mercy anyone with compassion would show their Golden Retreiver. And don’t give me any of that “life is precious” horsesh*t if you haven’t been there yet. Everyone’s the bravest guy on earth until you face the storm.
If Robert Latimer is in jail for killing his daughter, why isn’t Svend Robinson in jail for killing Sue Rodriguez?
The latimer case was a political dog and pony show and justice got frigged in the process…the charges were inappropriate, the crown didn’t prove mens rea yet there was no mistrile or reduced to manslaughter….now the parole denial as if the guy is a dangerous killer….pfffft..all in all a display that the justice system in Canada is so corrupted with partisan politics that any hope for reform is dim.
Karla Homolka,
drugged her own sister (with drugs she had stolen) to rape her for “fun”,
Homolka and her boyfriend had too much “fun” so her sister died,
Homolka drugged, raped and killed her own sister for sex, for “fun”
Karla Homolka is a monster.
Compared to her Latimer is an angel.
Karla Homolka is a monster but she is out of jail.
Those who let that monster get out of jail are dangerously stupid and definitely dangerously unqualified to make such important decisions.
Those who are keeping Latimer in jail are just a little less stupid.
In any event–Latimer does not pose a threat to public safety. He is nonetheless a murderer in the eyes of the law. That was his daughter in the truck, not “old blue” that would no longer bark when a stranger approached the fuel tank, so we took him out to the rock pile and shot him!
My personal opinion about Robert Latimer is that there wasn’t a whole lot of logic behind his actions. Had he had two bits worth of common sense, he would have known that the conseqences to killing someone was and is life imprisonment.
Children are not “chattle,” thus their lives are not ours to take.
While it is doubtless true that Mr. Latimer would be very unlikely to re-offend in the same manner as his original crime, it cannot be said that he does not represent a threat to society if you agree, as many do, that what he did was wrong. According to the parole board, his next stop on being freed was to move to Ottawa and engage in lobbying for the legalization of euthanasia.
The best scenario here would be for him to recognize the error of his ways and to then be reunited with his family – but that hasn’t happened yet. Perhaps, after some competant counselling which he appears to have refused so far, it will.
The Latimer case was sabotaged by the activists for the handicapped.
Tracy’s handicap (cerebral palsy) had nothing to do with the case. Yes, she had the most severe form of cerebral palsy, rendering her with, probably, the cognitive ability of a four month old. This is speculative because she could not speak. But that’s not the point.
The reality is that her physical condition was rapidly degenerating, beyond the capacity of our current medical system to deal with it. Her bones were literally dissolving and she was in excruciating pain. An operation to ‘replace’ a bone in her leg with a metal rod wouldn’t have stopped the degeneration and would have meant a long period of painful convalescence. Again, even this convalescence wasn’t the key problem.
The problem was that her pain had reached a state of continuous agony; the degenerating state of her body wasn’t going to stop. There were no painkillers available stronger than Tylenol that could be given to her because she was subject to seizures (about 6 a day) and fluid buildup in her longs. Painkillers interfere with the anti convulsant drugs and the drugs against fluid buildup.
Yes, if you have her stronger painkillers, she’d choke on her long fluids as she had multiple seizures.
So- what does a parent do? The Court suggested that the Latimers could institutionalize her. Ahh, send her away so you don’t see her agony. The Latimers refused.
The Court suggested stronger painkillers, denying the repeated testimony of her doctor that this was impossible. Stronger painkillers would kill her.
So, he killed her, in a painless way (carbon monoxide poisoning).
What parent,a genuinely caring parent, can stand by and watch their child in agony? Latimer did the right thing.
How can we as a society permit someone to live in agony? We rant and rail against torture, but, we permit it in Tracy’s case.
In hospitals, terminally ill patients are drugged with morphine; if it interferes with their other medications, and they die, either from the morphine, the other medications and their terminal illness – we say nothing.
In Tracy’s case, IF they had given her stronger medication to deal with her pain, she would have died anyway, by choking, a far more painful death than the one Latimer gave her.
Remember, this had nothing to do with her being handicapped; the Latimer’s kept and loved her for 12 years and refused to institutionalize her. It had nothing to do with mild or even occasional pain, such as arthritic and etc. It had to do with the development of an extreme irreversible degeneration of her physical body, a state that was keeping her in continuous agonizing pain.
We don’t let animals suffer. How can we allow a human being to suffer, while we smugly speak, as we watch them, of the ‘sanctity of life’.
Latimer refuses to demean himself in front of the sanctimonious members of the parole board. He won’t play their game. The most unrepentant criminals amongst us play the game, they sigh and declare they are sorry, they are repentant – and out they go. What do they do then? Back to robberies, homicides, break and enter, beating up people…..We see this ‘violation of parole’, and ‘murder while out on parole’ all the time. Thanks, Parole Board members. You really look after us. You just want someone to grovel in front of you, pretend to be sorry – and you release them. It’s all about your feelings of authority, Parole Board members. Not about truth.
Children are not “chattle,” thus their lives are not ours to take.
That statement goes to the heart of the matter. If it were otherwise slavery would be legal. Murder is theft of someone’s life, and there can be no restitution. That’s the reason for the death penalty, send the murderer to the Judge and to face the victim. That will happen regardless.
woof – IF Latimer’s ‘next step’ was to lobby for the legalization of euthanasia, this is an expression of his fundamental right, the freedom to have and to express, his beliefs.
Some people agree with the legalization of euthanasia. You obviously don’t. But, some people might declare YOU a ‘threat to society’. Remember, these are two different opinions, people have the right to express these two differences, argue and debate them – without someone like you suggesting that such is a ‘danger to society’.
Right, johnny jesus, and the consequences of not killing her, was to stand by and watch her writhe in agony. Can you actually advocate doing such a thing? Standing by and watching someone in agony, and sanctimoniously say to yourself, who is not in that agony, “oh, life is so precious’.
warwick – excellent post.
Mr. Latimer took the life of a vulnerable individual who had no say in the mater. His daughter’s life was taken without her consent. Regardless of his what intentions were, that is against the law.
“yeah… you’re all about compassion and respect for life… that sure comes through loud and clear.”
I respect those who respect the lives of others. Those who would take another’s life should be forced to forfeit their own. I’m for the death penalty only when there’s unequivocal evidence of guilt. In all other cases, life without parole.
Do you REALLY want to see a legal precedent set that decides the lives of some citizens are worth less than the lives of other citizens? Run that around your noodle a few times — I guarantee you won’t like the answer (not if you’re in possession of a working noodle, at least).
I watched the news story on Global last night regarding the Day parole for Robert Latimer.
MY opinion is that this was the most compassionalte act he could have done for his daughter. We should all hope we are never put in this situation. I know if I was, I’d have a hard time with the legalities of the issue, right or wrong.
I think the justice system has failed Robert Latimer. If we are to be fairly judged on a case by case basis, then compassion would have eventually given Latimer some form of freedom, whatever that may mean to him.
I also must state that I respect him for sticking to his guns regarding the parole board – to think he should have to compromise his integrity like so many others do, without a second thought, for his freedom.
That which is done out of love, lies beyond good and evil,
D
ol hoss you being an outsider, what do you think of the human race now that you’ve met us. pete