And underneath you’ll find an anti-Semite;
Left-wing extremists and PA Arabs destroyed thousands of grape vines belonging to local Jews in Samaria Wednesday. Some one hundred Arabs and leftists, along with dozens of Arab TV crews certified by various news agencies, marched to a Jewish vineyard near the town of Dolev, northwest of Jerusalem, and proceed to systematically uproot and destroy thousands of young grapevines.
The PA- appointed mayor of Ramallah took part in the march. Though the police and army had been forewarned that the Arabs and leftists were planning a provocation, security forces arrived only after most of the vineyard had already been uprooted.
[…]
The phenomenon of left-wing extremists, from both Israel, Europe and the United States, destroying Jewish vineyards and orchards in Judea and Samaria, though widespread, has rarely been covered by Israel’s state-run media and has never appeared in foreign news agency reports.
I’ll keep this simple: the land was seized from Jordan in 1967. If Jordan wants it back, they can go to war with Israel and try to re-take it.
My sister was in Israel last year for 2 weeks (she was a chaperone for a bunch of high school kids – it was during March break but they all got an extra week off).
She said the place looks great and the Israeli’s are irrigating desert land for food like you wouldn’t believe – and exporting it. The beaches were very nice and the security made you feel safe.
(Note: I had environmental concerns that pristeen desert was being turned into farmland – and it’s effect on global warming could be disastrous.)
One interesting thing though was that on tour buses to the West Bank (this is a Catholic High School – so it is actually a religious trip) to see places like Bethlehem there was some sort of agreement whereby the tour guides would change at the border – so the Israeli tour quide would get off of the bus when it entered the West Bank and a Palestinian tour guide would get on – and vice versa. It turned out that the Palestinians were actually Catholic and that most of the Palestinians in places like Bethlehem are in fact Christian – and they seem to get along with moderate Muslims – but not radical Muslims – which has caused many of them to leave over the years.
So it seems to me that the cauldren of crap that people like my late buddy Yasser has dished up over the years has actually hurt alot of the moderate Muslims and Christians who are also Palestinian (or Arab).
I also think that Israel has not necessarily been saintly in some of their land grab actions in the past – but they are definitely being pretty fair now.
Aaron:
WTF are you talking about? More to the point, WTF are you on?
Israel’s right to exist does not rely on whether it is the strongest in the region. It’s ability to defend itself against aggressors who would destroy it and its people obviously relies on superior Israeli might (and American might).
But to say Israel deserves to be there because it won some military battles in the last little while is stupid and dangerous. If Israel deserves to be there merely because it won some wars, then logically if some other Arab nation one day defeated Israel you’d be OK with that? Might is right. I thought we all sort of realized what a stupid and self-defeating philosophy that was for world diplomacy back in WWI and re-confirmed in WWII.
Isreal’s ability to exists certain depends on its strength but its right to exist is absolute, rooted in much deeper reasons than having better and bigger guns, like historical ties to the land, international and UN recognition, etc.. You would think you would know that.
Ted, I think you and I are largely in agreement on the behavior of the Israeli government in this particular instance. They didn’t protect the farmer against a mob, deliberately. That’s bad.
However, an important distinction to make regarding rights is that -people- have rights. Nations do not.
Nations are nothing more than an agreement among the people who live in it. They have no objective reality.
All a nation or a law is, really, is a promise backed up by violence. “We say this is Israel, we say these are the rules here, and if you break them badly enough we will shoot you.”
Which is why it is such a problem when the government allows activity like this attack on the farmer in Israel, or the Douglas Creek Estates invasion in Caledonia. They are breaking two contracts, one to help defend citizens’ private property and the other that citizens may defend it themselves.
Rights are inherent to individuals. All else is either talk or violence. That’s why countries fall apart, too many people willing to break their word and be violent. Yugoslavia springs to mind in this regard.
Ultimately that’s what makes the Palies a bunch of barbaric a-holes. They don’t keep their word and they are obscenely violent. Even other Arabs think of them this way. You can’t talk to them, therefore you either wall them up or shoot them. There is no third alternative.
“Whether the Palestinians were there first- as some historians say; or the Hebrews were there first – as other historians say -or other peoples were there first – as yet other historians say – and this well before the AD era and also excludes all the other peoples who were also in the region – is also, irrelevant. Again, Rights to Ownership aren’t defined by First Foot on the Ground.”
I think, ET, prior to making a statement like the above, you should get your facts straight. According to archeology, Israel was there first. What do you think the bloody Muslims built their mosques on top of?
If not defined by “first foot on the ground”, are then the rights of ownership defined by genocide and looting? A Mohommadan strategy going back to the extermination of a whole Jewish tribe, including the decapitation of 600-900 men and boys of the Banu Qurayza?
Or is it war?
There is no shared definition of ownership that we hold with Muslims. Take Spain for example. They conquered it, taking it from the indigenous owners and then were reconquered. Yet, to them, Andalusia still belongs to Islam and will be reconquered again, inshallah.
They believe that what was once Muslim is still Muslim, despite having won all of their lands by a particularly wretched form of imperial aggression and then losing much of them – the lost lands still belong to them.
This has nothing to do with what we in the west would call ‘lawful,’ let alone reasonable.
“Perhaps I’m simple and even simplistic – but, I hold to the civic, legal definition of ownership. That is – if someone has legal title under a current governorship, then, takeover requires acknowledgment of that title – and compensation. period.”
Once again, in your world. Not in theirs.
And on another theme that you keep bringing up – what are the ‘Palestinians’ other than Islamofascists? From Arafat, thru to Black September, Hamas, the indoctrination of their children into hate, practically inventing the suicide bomber, and all the other horrors – all supported by the Quran – do you really think these people are not Islamofascists?
If so, please provide evidence of a civilized people.
Ted: US lost the war in Vietnam. Should they just eat that or should they appeal to UN as it is not fair to rule by might? Does North Vietnam have the right to rule South Vietnam because South and the US lost or should that be reviewed by some third party?
Or should US return Texas to Spain? I am all ears!
“they just wish to be left alone and to leave others alone to make their own personal choices…”
Like when it comes to reproduction and sexual preferences?
Bollocks to that, conservatives tend want the freedom to do whatever they want and to prohibit others from doing anything they don’t approve of.
…”conservatives tend want the freedom to do whatever they want and to prohibit others from doing anything they don’t approve of.”
… like mutilating women genitalia and killing embrios?
Why do you read a socialist doctrine like the bible? You quote it a lot. I don’t think most of you on this blog even understand it.