Breaking news from Caldedonia Residents:
“We have confirmed through Ontario Senior Negotiator at Caledonia that 267 acres of land is being transferred to the Natives as payment to get them to take down the barricades. The future of this land is to be transferred to Six Nations at year end.”
And the lesson in all of this is…
more @ Caledonia Wakeup Call
crossposted @ Celestial Junk
Warning: I thought I should mention, just to keep things on a level, that at this point the above information is not confirmed, even though it seems par for the course.
Off to work . Have a good day folks (O:}
Indians hate whites, many whites hate Indians. What do you do about that? Give the Indians more money so we can resent them more, or cut them off so they can hate us without us paying them.
At least you will have ended half of the hate … better than nothing and a lot cheaper.
More on the sell out here … http://tinyurl.com/jwhdx
Hey Beardy (and anyone else who thinks this standoff is a good idea).
Discussion of law and treaty is all very well and good, but it doesn’t really touch on reality. Lemme tell you the net result of all this uproar.
People from the Six Nations reserve have stopped shopping at Zehrs in Caledonia. It used to be their main supermarket, because it is closer than Brantford or Hagersville, and there isn’t a nice big supermarket on the reserve.
See, Zehrs very close to the occupation zone. Almost right across the street. Back in April and May some Warriors thought it would be a good idea to go down there and intimidate The White Man, make some noise, have a bit of fun and cause a ruckus.
It worked! The White Man in Caledonia is intimidated.
So now when some old lady from the reserve wants to go shopping, she gets to drive to Brantford, Hagersville or even Hamilton, because the intimidated White people in the Caledonia Zehrs look at her funny. Maybe some punks make a few comments.
There’s your total net result so far. Happy?
Reverant Dream if you have all the answers why isn’t this country run the way you see it.
Because when you say “Basically what your asking is that people born 200 years ago who signed a treaty for whatever reason, those who won descendants will be your paymasters for free, forever. Grow up. That attitude will keep your people in chains forever.” has no basis in law at all.
All I asked is that we argue on points that do matter, that would have the power this country. Your arguments will never get us there. so I’m not avoiding anything, I’m trying to focus this debate based on the only thing that matters – the law.
What reasonable minded politician would rant publicly like you have? NONE!! cuz when you say “I could not give a hoot, what the picked Supreme Court Liberal hacks believe. They where bought & paid for ages ago.” sound like something Maurice Vellecott would say. Because of that nonesense his own party made him RESIGN from the aboriginal committee and relegated him to the backbenches.
So your arguments don’t cut it!
“Of liberty I would say that, in the whole plenitude of its extent, it is unobstructed action according to our will. But rightful liberty is unobstructed action according to our will within limits drawn around us by the equal rights of others. I do not add ‘within the limits of the law,’ because law is often but the tyrant’s will, and always so when it violates the right of an individual.” –Thomas Jefferson
“‘within the limits of the law,’ because law is often but the tyrant’s will, and always so when it violates the right of an individual.”
He was talking about british laws, the laws governing the colonies. He was stating the fact the landed immigrants from england had no say what laws would govern them. The british parliament made the laws. I agree, that would be tyrannical.
But that doesn’t apply here does it. You vote for your parliament and government. How could the laws of this country be tryanncal.
This sounds like more Maurice Vellecott!
“But rightful liberty is unobstructed action according to our will within limits drawn around us by the equal rights of others.”
I like this part because of its irony! “the equal rights of others!”
This country signed a Treaty with the First Nations. After doing so Canada lays claim to all this territory. But the irony is that Canada has yet to live up to its Treaty obligations. And whats worse is that I spend my valuable time hearing all of you complain that First Nations are some kind of privilaged people.
Bizarre irony
I support individual Indians, to the degree that in my judgment support is justified, based on their individual behaviour, exactly as I treat everybody else. I am not in favour of tyranny of the Canadian majority, or tyranny of the Indian tribe.
Laws based on race are, I think, tyranny of genetics (hey, I’m a libertarian, life’s like that). So, I think those sorts of laws should be rescinded.
Beardy: Being white, if I destroy a road or set a bridge on fire, should I be arrested and go to jail? Do you think any of my reasons for destroying public property would matter?
Beardy said:
“This sounds like more Maurice Vellecott!”
—
Oh boy, that sounds like the Leftist tactic of using the racist card again. When there is nothing left to argue, start calling your oponent ‘Maurice Vellecott’ or some name by which to ‘insult’ them in to acquiescing their position. Don’t use logic, appeal to emotion.
With (or without) regard as to the existence of the treaties, two nations acting autonomously within each other will not work. There has to be some other way of joining the two groups without devising separate governance and law. The only option I can think of is allowing the ‘FN’ government to act like a state of Canada. The overarching law that would govern the FN would be Canadian rule of law which governs all of us.
Beardy, you would be foolish to believe that the people of Canada will stand idly by and allow two separate rules of law to continue ad infinitum.
Oops, feeding the trolls again. Sorry Kate!
Anyone care to examine Caledonia as an object lesson in the development of terrorism?
Let me start off with a few parallels. We have an indentifiable group with grievances. These grievances are very real to them and real motivation. There is another identifiable group that would suffer consequences if the grievances of the first group were redressed. Moreover, the group that would suffer may seem to control the means of redress (government, money, laws, courts etc.)
Over a period of time, the aggrieved seek redress and get nowhere. Governments may be afraid to offend the other group that may vote for them. Lawsuits and courts may be expensive, slow and do not garantee success. There may be a perceived crisis (such as development, logging or the creation of some fait accomplit.) Pleading and demanding have not worked, suing may be too slow and uncertain, and political action has gotten nowhere. So how do you get attention and action on your problem? You use force to create a situation that cannot be ignored, that must be looked at and, given a credible threat, must be resolved.
This model has worked time and time again, in Europe (IRA, ETA, Red Army Faction,) and in Canada (FLQ, various flooding and logging sites, Oka.) There does not even have to be success (see ETA or the RAF) to provide motivation for a lot of unpleasantness.
Perhaps the Ontario Government knows what it is doing in buying time to cool tempers and avoid a war between Redskins and Rednecks. By simply demanding that those blasted Indians cease and desist their confounded lawbreaking, we’re only adding to their motivation.
I have read this entire thread and it always astounds me that all the different native tribes are referred to as First Nations as if they are one homogeneous group. I work with FN, aboriginals, indians (whatever the term) all the time and meet good ones/bad ones/ indifferent ones but the one overpowering fact is that the old fueds still live. The Dene don’t like the cree, the mohawks don’t like crow, etc. I could go on and on. This is not some group that gets along well and would form a single government if they could, but a bunch of small factions that don’t like eachother so don’t talk to me about FN’s supporting each other in one big happy family.
Beardy’s: When you sell a piece of land and sign an agreement, by law the purchaser now owns the land. That is the situation in Caledonia that was upheld by the court. The protestors from the reserve have broken many laws to try and stop a developer from making something of the land they bought from the legal owner. What legal basis do you have to stand on exactly. By treaty the land was native owned and then they sold it. Deal done. You no longer have claim to that land. I do agree that reserves need to be abolished and the residents compensated finacially for land claims in one final payment. Then they are free to earn their own living and contribute to society in a positive manner.
The people breaking the law need to be arrested and put in jail period. I don’t care what side they are on or what their skin colour is, the law needs to be the law.
Keeping your culture alive is the responsibility of the person. I’m ukrainian and we keep our culture alive in various ways without help from the government. Why the natives and french can not do the same is beyond me. My people were mistreated in a number of ways even though they built a good portion of the west from bald prarie to usable land through back breaking labour. We don’t continuously complain asking for land and money even though we were mistreated by government institutions as well. Interment camps and an attempt to kill our language happened as well. Stop complaining and looking for someone else to solve your problem. Step up to the plate like many of your people are starting to do and fix things yourselves.
The newest university building at the U of R is a perfect example. My fees go to build a building with a sole purpose of educating metis and native peoples. In approximately three years, they have managed to squander the majority of their funding and have lost their accredidation. It was completely run by the FN community and they proceeded to hire a board of family members and steal money. This is despicable and sad. A chance to educate youth and remove them from a cycle of dependance wasted on corruption. Why would self governance be any different?
Agitfact, you’re assuming this present unpleasantness isn’t all a scam to build a casino and further the purposes of an organized crime network. This assumption is probably not warranted.
Translation, you’re being taken for a sleigh ride by a bunch of grifters, dude.
“Why the natives and french can not do the same is beyond me”.
You answered your own question:
“built a good portion of the west from bald prarie to usable land through back breaking labour.”
Enough said.
Maybe it’s time to change the wheels rather than keep oiling them?
“And we are supposed to be celebrating Canada day very shortly. I don’t think so.”
…well except in Quebec…moving day…
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fete_nationale_du_Qu%C3%A9bec
Within Quebec, federalists and sovereignists have tended to use the Fête nationale du Québec to promote identification with Quebec, while their opponents have used Canada Day celebrations to stress loyalty to Canada as a whole.
dear NKOB: exactamundo.
I came across this calculation eons ago. divied the total $ given to FNs etc by their population, big discrepancy at the bottom end!!! wheres the money???
to cree: ummm, big difference betwixt whut ‘da law i’ da law i’ da law’ says and what becomes common practice. men are equally capable of ignoring the laws they create as they are of creating them. used to be a panel show on the telly about long defunct statutes that few know about let alone abide by. it does ‘appen !!!
One last comment to Beardy’s Cree (BTW, where are you?) re “the law”:
Sometimes the law’s an ass and in this case, you can say that again:
THE LAW’S AN ASS.
‘Best not to hide behind it BD.
new kid on the block: I’ve been wondering if Beardy’s Cree is a lawyer, i.e., Indian Industry Lawyer of course.
Me No Dhimmi, any other great contributions to rational debate?