Yesterday, a Vancouver acquaintance of mine posted something online criticizing Trump’s recent inflammatory rhetoric that Europeans would be talking German and Japanese now if it weren’t for the Americans. Over the top? Of course. But this Vancouver fellow in his 60’s implied that the Allies were doing just fine fighting the Germans before America got into World War 2. To be clear, Canada contributed greatly, well beyond its relatively small size. A whole lot of brave Canadian lost their lives in this noble fight against the Nazis.
So I privately asked this fellow about what he posted, and whether he truly felt that America’s contribution in WW2 wasn’t needed to achieve victory for the Allies. He said he wasn’t sure and that “we’ll never know”. He also gave me his list of those who deeply contributed to the war effort: Britain, the Soviet Union, Canada, France, Australia, New Zealand, India, South Africa, Brazil, & Mexico. I was curious, so I asked Grok to do some research for me.
Here’s the AI’s response. I’ll leave it to you, dear reader, to decide whether the Vancouver fellow, a huge fan of Trudeau and Carney by the way, was accurate with his summation of WW2.
Update: I went back to AI and asked it to speculate on what would have happened had America not directly got involved in WW2.
If you read Churchill’s account of WW2, it was not going to be won without US entering the war. The lend/ lease was necessary, but put an extreme financial burden on England. It was finally paid off in 2006. One must also remember that Russia obtained much needed help from the US, which was brokered by Churchill
Canada is the most propagandized country in the world.
WW2 would have been a much more gruesome and longer conflict without the US.
But, what was the end result beyond WW2? The US industrial complex was modernized along with a new optimism for western society that we all benefitted from for decades.
Our world would not have been a better place with the Soviets dominating all of Europe and the Imperial Japanese dominating Eastern Asia and Pacific.
The US has been the Center of discovery, inventions and high tech, thanks to their attitude of American Excellence.
In comparison, Canada is a follower, never a leader. Still followers, soon to be of Communist a China
I think it would be wise to remember Germany was on a path to an Atom Bomb. They would have had more time and resources to complete without the Americans turning the tide of the war. Never forget, there were Nazi scientists involved in the Manhattan project.
The Germans could not have built one. Look at what it took for the US to do so, and by that I mean the industrial capacity. The huge complexes and energy needed to refine the Uranium and produce plutonium.
America not in the (2) theatres:
European Theatre
1) No American invasion of North Africa to fight Vichy French forces and then Rommel.
2) No invasion of Sicily and Italy
3) Wehrmacht keeps 20 to 30 more divisions and supplies on Eastern Front
4) Stalemate in Western Europe all the way to Pacific Ocean – run by Nazis and Communists
Pacific Theatre
1) No defeat of Japanese fleet at Midway.
2) No defeat island by island all the way to Saipan and Okinawa
3) Does Australian get invaded – Japan keeps forces in Asia totally unopposed
3) No bombing of Japan
4) Stalemate in Asia – Japan runs it
Maybe Russia and Germany declare a truce and the (2) Socialist Eurasia land powers agree to carve up the entire area and leave China to Japan. Different world. USSR and The Third Reich were allies once. I mean what was the Molotov-Ribbentrop Pact for? Carving up Eastern Europe – Poland especially. germnay then does truce with UK and tells them they can keep India and South Africa for the time being – Japan not consulted.
But Japan attacks Pearl Harbor on 12/7/1941 and Hitler foolishly declares war on the United States December 11, 1941 – 4 days later. Game over.
Is your friend a Liberal, NDP, or Green? He’s not using language to communicate or discuss things logically, he’s just making the correct noises to identify himself as a member of his tribe. Facts or logical speculations are useless in this case because he doesn’t actually believe anything, none of it matters but that he can display he is virtuous, and he condemns anyone outside his tribe. Words don’t have any more meaning to these people than dogs barking at an intruder.
Yet Robert … ” … we’ll never know … “
There is no answer for that, other than speculation… no matter how logical, rational, or evidential. It’s like saying OrangeManBad … there is no answer for that other than TDS … other than calling the speaker an irrational putz. Then, it’s conversation OVER. No orthodoxies altered.
I admire your efforts to engage your leftist friends and acquaintances… I find it quite noble of you. But speaking as an ex hippie who has spent 70 years mired in this swamp of leftist indoctrination… there is NO discussion possible. You’re tilting at windmills. I gave up a few decades ago … and now I just nod and shake my head as if in agreement with leftist idiocy. I first learned this coping mechanism at UC Berkeley …
If Hitler had been ousted in ’41 or even ’42 ….
What would have happened? A pyrrhic victory for the allies. No NATO or other Western block. US industrial and military might never materializes for lack of need. No soviet containment. No rebirth of Japan. Today’s technology wouldn’t exist because there would be no common trust between states to enable its development. Everyone would be poorer. Muslims would still be selling slaves.
They still are.
Meh…historical illiterates. Yes, I’ve heard the ‘Yeah, but they came late” argument as well. Your 60 year old friend should know better. I’ve found people such as myself whose parents experienced the war up close and personal are the least likely to be argumentative about WW2 as to who did what.
I don’t waste too much time explaining the finer points of the Lend/Lease Program…U.S. Merchant Navy, Battle of the Bulge (which doesn’t get enough ink in my opinion) and of course the Marshal Plan. Just to name a few. Don’t forget the invasion of Italy either.
If I have time I’ll remind them about the 185 acres in Normandy, France filled with dead U.S. servicemen who gave it all, only to be denigrated by ungrateful Eurotrash a mere 80 years later. Be sure to tell them that’s probably the last time as I doubt Americans are in the mood to bail them out a third time. So they’ll have to put on their big boy pants for the next one.
Just as an aside: Please read the story about the U.S. Army Rangers scaling the 100 ft. cliffs at Pointe de Hoc, Normandy France on Dday…you come away thinking the men back then were a totally different breed of cat.
I’m not exactly a Sherpa guide climbing the 20 ft. to get on my roof using the TV aerial never mind 100 ft.
As the wife likes to point out – “Look at your birth certificate every once in a while, wouldja!”
If you really want them to look puzzled, ask a “they arrived late” supporter whether they hate the Swiss for staying neutral.
I’m going to remember that one.
And supplying Germany with much needed precision parts. Yes, the Swiss manufactured the bearings the Wehrmacht needed for its Panzers and the Luftwaffe for its aircraft.
Heh.My father served.
Before he passed away,he told those of us who would listen,that in his opinion,”They had been shooting the wrong people”.
Now there is some real WW2 revision.
And Dread Covid Theatre ,has moved me to his position.
Everything he volunteered to fight against,we here in Canada did to ourselves.
Can Ahh Duh today would have made the Moustached One proud.
Just think, NAZI’s had to build concentration and death camps.
Canada uses hospitals.
Regarding America’s contribution to the war in Europe, their would have been no liberation of Western Europe, and the Soviets would have continued marching through Germany heading eastward until they hit the Atlantic Ocean. Regarding Japan……really?
One things for sure, if there’s another world war that takes place on the European continent, I for one will definitely not support any U.S. involvement. They are (on balance) not worth saving at this point, given their total disrespect for free-speech, and their mass importation of the you-know-who’s. It’s a sinking ship not worth a drop of American blood.
Typical Canadian, living in a fantasy world, where every Canadian is living a hero’s journey, fighting the US.
Fun fact: the US produced more war materiel in WW2, than all other combatants combined.
This might cause you commie friend tears, Robert, but Solzhenitsyn said the US should have fought the war without Soviets as “ allies “ .
Please ask the commie what he thinks about that fact, Robert.
To be clear, this fellow is just an acquaintance, not a friend. The Czech fellow I related to you last week was an actual friend. But even with my longterm friends, if I sense they have permanent TDS, or are just generally ignorant, I will only expend so much time before I just tell them that talking politics with them is pointless so, to preserve the friendship, I won’t do it any more.
As for this Vancouver fellow, he got really focused on two issues after his WW2 comment:
1. Do I think the U.S. should leave NATO.
2. My comment to him that Americans of all political stripes are sick and tired of being the world’s policeman.
About NATO, I said that if the other members aren’t living up to the commitments that THEY made for a period of years, then of course America should leave NATO. No comment from him.
As to the second item, he bluntly asked, “Well then, who should be the world’s policeman?”
My sense with this guy is that he is typical of all Canadian Liberals: He wants everyone else to fight the battles he thinks are righteous. This means he’s entirely fine with sending endless billions to Ukraine and even sending Canadian soldiers to die there. You see, if it’s a noble cause, in his eyes, and he supports it, then it doesn’t matter how many people get hurt or die. This is the way Lieberals think.
I was gonna say, for someone who seems based, you appear to have a lot of far left looney acquaintances who feel the need to challenge your political opinions. Between Trump 1.0 and my refusal to comply during covid, I shed those types out of my life (their choice in all cases to stop talking me or unfriend me). It’s remarkable that you have not seen these types unfriend you.
Narcissistic psychopath.
May I suggest that your acquaintance would probably prefer the US be the world’s … Nurse, not policeman. Like all those fine Nurse ‘First Responders’ on the front lines of Marxist Revolutions
God knows we’ve been the world’s Nursemaids for long enough.
I would ask “If Carney promised 2%, and only delivered 1.4% and continually lied in public declarations then what should Trump do?” Possibly with a question “Can I borrow $1000 until next week?” followed by never paying them back to rub in their bad judgement.
Agreed that righteous self-reflection is not a strength of this individual.
Well, the idea that America’s help wasn’t “needed” to win the war requires a pretty elaborate construction of “need”. There’s an obvious sense in which it’s true: Canada entered the war in 1939 and did not need American help to win the war she entered. Instead, she lost that war, while America stood back and lost nothing – excuse me, “did” nothing, we must be accusatory about the Yanks, mustn’t we? With the fall of France the war was over, and we had to wait for a new war. Fortunately, one turned up.
And I don’t think there’s much doubt that Britain could have won the war against Italy, that they were fighting as the justification for remaining on a war footing, without the Americans. Not that it would have done anybody any good, but they could have done it, certainly with our help.
But we could not have driven Germany out of France without the Americans, or even attempted it. Whether American aid to Russia was decisive is hard to say, but it was certainly important. Russia’s mass ensured that as long as she stayed on her feet, she would eventually prevail; but she came close to being knocked over half a dozen times, and many (not all) of those times, American aid was clearly decisive in pulling her through.
Obviously without the Americans there’s no war in the Pacific at all. So, we don’t need them to win the war that never happens, is the reasoning required.
US aid to the Soviets was essential. One point: Soviet offensives went forward on Dodge 21/2 ton trucks. Mass is immaterial if you can’t move your army.
And, of course the Russians have never properly thanked the US for not obliterating them in the long period after the war where the US was the only nuclear power, and had the means to deliver them.
I remember stories my Dad told me about many young Americans coming to Calgary to enlist in the RCAF from 1939 to 1942 when he was stationed there.
He related the tale of young American recruits jumping from the back of a newly arrived truck and names being called out by the recruiting sergeant. He called as they emerged: Mueller, Schmidt, Schultz….hey are you guys sure you’re in the right camp?
Isn’t German the largest ethnicity in the US?
Yep.
“It cannot be denied that the Americans sent us materiel without which we could not have formed our reserves or continued the war”.
Georgy Zhukov
“Without the machines we received through Lend-Lease, we would have lost the war”.
Joseph Stalin
““Without the machines we received through Lend-Lease, we would have lost the war”.
Joseph Stalin
Also (and everyone forgets this for some reason) without the Americans fighting on several European and African fronts and preventing the Germans from re-enforcing their troops at Stalingrad, you would have lost the war. Another couple of divisions available to break through to the Caucasus oil fields and it would have been over.
If the US had not gotten involved, Europe would be speaking Russian. An interesting anecdote: When Montgomery was preparing to cross the Rhine with much preparations and supplies, Patton crossed somewhere where the Germans were not looking, surprising all, including Montgomery and Ike, all the way up the chain of command. Montgomery was very pissed off and wanted Patton punished (relieved) because reasons. He spoke to Churchill about it. Churchill listened but made Montgomery realise the US was providing the bulk of everything now (men, material, suplies, etc) and this affront was not worth getting the the US’ bad side. Also, war had evolved.
And about lend-lease: The US was supplying materiel before becoming a belligerent so I assume this would have continued too. Related: Did you know England gave the Rolls Royce Nene to the Soviets in 1946, to ensure the US would not be too dominant? After reverse engineering and a few improvement, the resulting engine equipped the MiG 15, terror of the Korean skies. Only the F-86 could challenge it. Thus many allied aircraft, including B-29s were shot down because of our good and stalwart ally Britain.
Russia won WWII.
Stalin planned to invade Europe all along.
The Molotov-Ribbentrop Pact had Russia invading Poland at the same time that Germany invaded from the west.
It would have cost more lives, but Russia would have won eventually.
Russia’s population was many times that of Germany and Germany was already failing to supply their thousands of miles of logistics train which was prey to partisan attack before the U.S. entered the war.
If the Japanese hadn’t attacked the U.S.A., Germany wouldn’t have declared war on America and the U.S.A. would have continued to sit the war out.
The U.S. doesn’t get any MORAL kudos for doing the right thing.
They simply defended themselves when attacked.
Who wouldn’t?
As to those who say Russia couldn’t have equipped themselves without the U.S.
Russia had better tanks and guns than Germany. Russia had the oil/gas/lubes.
Russia pulled all of their factories further East out of Germany’s reach and continued to grind out gear for their armies.
Stalin had no political limit to the blood he was willing to spill to win.
He had just liquidated 20,000 on his own military officers immediately prior to Germany’s attack.
He and his Politburo had just finished killing 65 MILLION of his own people to consolidate power for the Bolsheviks.
“Russia won WWII.”
The Second World War ended on Dec 25, 1991 with the defeat and dissolution of the USSR.
The Soviets lost, despite enormous efforts of Anglolanders to bail out Bolshevism.
No, the Russians did not build better tanks per se. The Russians knew the lifespan of a tank was short. Why build perfect quality when it won’t be around in a week? Most tanks would end up as a burnt out hulk from anti-tank weapons and artillery fire.
Unlike Germany, the Russians cranked out as many as possible with no regard to making them last. Doing so was a waste of time. The Germans, on the other hand, kept on building in the mindset that Panzers had to run for ever. This was the “German engineering” thought process. Yet the Panzers were destroyed just as fast as the Russian tanks. Right to the bitter end the Germans were wasting precious time and resources on perfectly manufacturing its weaponry.
“per se”
To quote Stalin himself: “Quantity has a quality all its own.”
He was talking about the 65,000 tanks that the Russians built.
The Russian T34 was the inspiration for the Panzer V Panther.
Stalin had no political limit to the blood he was willing to spill to win.
He had just liquidated 20,000 on his own military officers immediately prior to Germany’s attack.
He and his Politburo had just finished killing 65 MILLION of his own people to consolidate power for the Bolsheviks.
Therein lay one of the great vulnerabilities of the Soviets along with their own issues with supply/logistics. They were lucky they were up against a moron such as Hitler, with his stupid racial doctrines. Even so there were a number of people within the Soviet sphere who were willing to go over to the other side to get rid of Stalin. If the war had gone on, the Germans might have been forced to revise their ideas about non-Germans, and that might have led to more defections.
Of course, this might not have happened and then indeed all of Europe (what was left of it after the Nazis and then the Soviets got through with it) would have been speaking Russian (maybe, IF they could manage the supply and logistics) — which you, in your propagandized feeble brain, would apparently have enjoyed…if only, if only the Communists had completely taken over!!! Be still my collectivist heart!!!
By the way: who helped the Soviets create those factories? Oh yes, that’s right…
A war such as that is multi-factored; everyone contributed…what my President was getting at is the, now decades long, discourse of jackasses like you and the OP’s Vancouver acquaintance who like to berate and belittle my country while still depending upon it, talking tough until somebody gives you a good stiff poke “you’d be speaking German…” at which point you either cry or squawk like a bedraggled chicken.
Don’t worry, I do realize that it is the result of message conditioning, an old one really, a cliche at this point.
Cry harder, squawk louder!
“which you, in your propagandized feeble brain, would apparently have enjoyed”
Get stuffed Jane. You are the propagandized one.
“By the way: who helped the Soviets create those factories? ”
They already existed before Russia invaded Poland in 1939.
The Commonwealth stood alone against Hitler’s Panzer Armies while fat assed Americans sat back and played baseball.
And then when Churchill wanted to finish off the Russians, you Americans quit with WWII still unfinished.
Korea, Vietnam, Granada, Cuba, Venezuela, Nicaragua all of these wars had to be fought with China yet to be fought because America quit before the job was finished back in 1945.