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A bank robbery by armed gunmen? Who did you expect would show up??
Dickie Dee??
PS: In hindsight, we’re all experts. It`s sad that one hostage died. But they got the bastards and that`s what it`s all about!
Well. They do have those hundreds of thousands of rounds to use.
A police response like this is supposed to make you feel safe?
At this point defunding and murder charges are required.
Good grief , that must have been damned near every cop in town attending one bank robbery. Don’t they have a dispatcher ? Would have been the perfect time to rob a couple of banks on the other side of town.
This is *bankrupt* Stockton, CA, and they have 50 cop cars available for one bank robbery.
You’d think that at most 10 or 15 cop cars would be adequate to handle a single bank robbery.
The fact that there are so many cops sitting around idle, probably means that Stockton’s bankruptcy will be revisited. 🙁
At some point in the video , it’s stated that one of the 3 hostages was killed by the bank robbers and either thrown or fell out of the car as it was being pursued. They used the remaining 2 hostages for “human shields” (remind you of anyone else in the news lately?).
The police were fully justified in their response here. Defunding? Criminal charges? uff.
Keystone Kops in action. I thought the same about that perfect opportunity to do a crime and get away without pursuit.
Yes Marc criminal charges.
“The third hostage, identified as 41-year-old Misty Holt Singh,
…
Singh was found dead inside of the SUV due to gunfire, Stockton police said. Stockton Police Chief Eric Jones said she was used as a human shield during the fire fight, but it was unclear who shot her.”
In other words cops shot the hostage and will now work on a cover up. Then they will come up with their sanitized version of events and settle a civil lawsuit with hostage’s family out of court.
Because they could, because the life of the hostage matters nothing to them, because it will be the taxpayers who will have to pay in the end so what do they care?
“At some point in the video , it’s stated that one of the 3 hostages was killed by the bank robbers and either thrown or fell out of the car as it was being pursued. They used the remaining 2 hostages for “human shields” (remind you of anyone else in the news lately?). ”
No, it stated that one of the hostages was shot during the chase and either jumped out or was pushed out. The last hostage was the one that they used as a human shield and that poor woman was shot and killed. Probably by the same police that took an oath to serve and protect. They protected the bank’s money and served up the hostage.
Folks used to wait until the coroner’s report was released before they said who shot who.
That was at the time when coroner’s report could be trusted. But I am sure you have believed original RCMP version about Dziekanski’s death as well, didn’t you?
“In other words cops shot the hostage and will now work on a cover up.”
You got that right. The cop car circus clearly shows the level of disorganized incompetence. It looked like something straight out of the ‘Police Academy’ movies.
@ 1.30 in the video, the news reporter states the police said that the bank robbers “shot 1 hostage, a bank employee who either jumped or was thrown from the car”. The police said it, it’s in the video.
At that point in the pursuit, it’s not known if police were returning fire, or if they’d even shot, yet you’re saying you know who shot who. How do you know this?
and Colonialista, I didn’t believe any of the original RCMP version of the murder of Mr. Dziekanski in Vancouver, as the media had some doubts in the first reports I’d read, and I don’t think that tazers should be used outside of certain drug induced craziness. And, I don’t understand how you know this, how you actually say, “I am sure you have believed…”
How do you know what I believe, aside from where I state it in the above sentence…
Are you now making things up to suit your argument, the same thing you accuse the police of doing?
You stated: “The police were fully justified in their response here.” and hence you clearly placed yourself in the lemming camp. I extrapolated from there.
“The police said it, it’s in the video.”
Yes, the police said that. Exactly why should a sane person take their version for granted?
Again read the report under the first link. The dead hostage was found inside the SUV. If she was inside the SUV then she was not outside the SUV. Hence she was not thrown out of SUV. Still with me?
Now, when you watch and listen to the response on the second video does it strike you like a coordinated effort, by a professional force focused on rescuing the hostages? Really? Does it?
Wonna bet they all emptied their mags in the general direction of what they perceived as threat, carrying nothing for those caught in crossfire? Remember what they did (twice!) when they hunted for Droner? Remember recent case in New York where they hit everyone but their target (who in the end turned out unarmed), do you need more examples?
Because they could, because they new their brothers in blue would cover for them, because they knew taxpayers would pay the bill.
Dorner not Droner
Yes, I think the police were justified in their response, they’re paid to stop bank robberies and hostage situations, they were doing that, regardless of if they’d sent half as many, or twice as many police. Clearly, I’m not a lemming, I don’t simply think the police are justified in all their actions, nor that these bank robbers deserve a second chance.
If anything, they could consider bringing actual rifles to a rifle fight instead of whichever underpowered pistols they seemed to be using.
A nominally sane person may take the police at their word, as it’ll be used in court.
As a dead hostage was found inside the SUV, at the end of the chase. Who’s bullet is in her?
Is it from the bank robbers Ak47 style rifle? or is it from the police pistols? It’s not like they’re real similar…
When the police first started to pursue the bank robbers, one of the hostages is shot and falls or is thrown from it, no indication is given as to whether the police were shooting at that point, yet you’re sure of police guilt, and you ask if I’m still with you? No, I’m not with you, nor the others that assume one side is always guilty, while the other side is always not guilty.
and how do you know the police don’t care if someone was in the crossfire? How do you know enough about this to bet the police “all emptied their mags” in the general direction?
Your other examples are in other jurisdictions, which aren’t really a reflection on the Stockton CA police force, but may reflect poorly on other “lemmings” that assume all police are guilty, and “because they could”.
I doubt other examples will help your case. Much of what you’ve stated is based on feelings.
Yes courts have been traditionally putting a great weight on the statements made by the police. And that is exactly the problem. Cops lie routinely and in perfect harmony. I have no reason to expect that these cops are by some miracle any different than cops everywhere else. All that I have stated is based not on certainty, true, but neither it is based on feelings, it is based on likelihood. It is a conclusion drawn on a huge numbers of cases of police abuse, negligence and arrogance that routinely goes unpunished. I can cite multiple cases where police behaved carelessly and endangered and often harmed innocent bystanders simply because they felt threatened by the immediate circumstances while at the same time they were certain that no matter what they do, they will not be held responsible for their actions.
In the end it comes up to the fact that you desperately cling to the belief that police are the good guys, all evidence to the contrary. I have no such delusions. They are dangerous predators and jackbooted thugs with a Cartman complex. And no I do not care if the good cops feel insulted by such generalizations, even if both of them are insulted.
Actually the popo’s have a lot to answer for here but the real problems for Stockton started long ago when a bunch of dumb clucks on the city council mandated low income housing in every new neighborhood and a federal lawsuit mandated bussing to integrate the schools. Toss in dividing the city into 4 state assembly districts so you didn’t have a go to guy, and putting 6, soon to be 7 state prisons here pretty much sealed Stockton’s fiscal fate. Sad, it was a great place to be a teenager in the late fifties.
The only word I come up with to describe this reaction to threat level is “ridiculous”.
I wonder if they’d be so fast to swarm to riots in east LA?
This is the new police training – swarming a suspect – it recreates the military shock and and awe deployment, a sort of excessive display of force meant to intimidate the enemy into giving up without shooting back. Bottom line is, it just shows how pussy and aggressive cops have become.
Another Waco is on the horizon
At some point you have to say ‘whoa, we have enough people for the situation, send those other guys away’. Too many people just get in each others’ way and command and control gets confused.
marc, you are naïve, uninformed and probably just plain stupid. Clonialista seems to have some idea as to what’s happening in Stockton. This same disorganized stupidity got a young mother dead in Washington not too long ago. And I speak from a position of having dealt with these idiots (cop) on both a business and personal level. (I’v probably been to court as much as most of the rest in here put together)
Anybody here seen seen Judge’s “Idiocracy?” Mike Judge is a sage.
When one thinks that there is a conspiracy, any dissenting voices are just support for the conspiracy theory. I’m not wading in on this one, there’s no point to it.
Had there been no crime, there would be no victims. If more armed robberies ended this way (with the robber dead) there would be less armed robberies. Crime cannot be stopped in a free society because there are always those vain, stupid, and (intellectually) lazy enough to think that they can get away with it. The less that do get away with it, the less likely it is that those with moderate cases of stupidity and vanity are to try the crime.
http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=542zyQ6-gd4
How could they have used assault rifles? Those are banned in California, aren’t they? So it would be illegal for them to rob a bank or shoot at police with them.
Listening to the second video, you can hear what sounds like full-auto fire from multiple rifles.
When they finally do the post mortem, the answer to who shot the hostage is going to be “everybody”.
In the trade, this is know as the “spray and pray” school of marksmanship. A bunch of drunk yahoo duck hunters standing up blasting the h3ll out of that car with shotguns would have -better- accuracy.
You don’t select full-auto in a hostage situation. You don’t send ALL the cop cars in town after a bank robbery. You don’t empty mag after mag into a vehicle after all movement has stopped.
Because TRAINING.
Criminal charges are warranted here. They need to charge the chief of police and the chief training officer with gross dereliction of duty causing death. And they need to charge the stupid pr1cks who lit that car up on full-auto, because that’s just not acceptable.
“- it recreates the military shock and and awe deployment, a sort of excessive display of force meant to intimidate the enemy into giving up without shooting back.”
I agree in part, Occam, but I also suspect the shock and awe tactics are to intimidate the general public as much as the bad guys. JMO
Nice hunting. Too bad about the hostage.
-the real problems for Stockton started long ago when a bunch of dumb clucks on the city council mandated low income housing in every new neighborhood-
That is exactly the plan that HHS has for America:
-In order to qualify, the families must be income eligible, without any recent drug or violent criminal activity. Eligible families are afforded to rent safe, decent and sanitary housing in the private rental market. The family pays 30 percent of their adjusted income towards rent; and HUD subsidizes the remaining portion directly to the landlord via DHA.-
http://www.denverhousing.org/section8/Pages/default.aspx
Notice the restriction about “recent drug or violent criminal activity”.
Jesus, Mary and Joseph, wasn’t that a lil overkill ?
It looked more like a practice run for trainees,creating a hell of a lot of confusion. Kinda like an episode of the Keystone cops ending sadly with the reality of an innocent hostage being killed.
I know what I would do if I were the family of the dead hostage.There has to be a price paid for such abject stupidity.
That’s great that you know I’m “naïve, uninformed and probably just plain stupid” … as, you know, I’ve disagreed with you.
and,
Who is “Clonialista”? How does, “This same disorganized stupidity got a young mother dead” happen? … Is “got a young woman dead? your “ghetto speak” for the murder of an unarmed woman with her child in the back seat? Were the bank robbers in the above article unarmed with their child in the back seat? Or did they seize hostages with an AK-47 after robbing a bank?
and,
I don’t doubt that you’ve (probably) had personal contact with the police and courts “as much as most of the rest in here put together”.
Colonialista: I’m not “desperately clinging to the belief that police are the good guys, all evidence to the contrary.” As they’re police doesn’t make them “good guys” or bad guys. I’m not applying a blanket moral label to people based on their choice of work,
As I mentioned in my commentary, re: the Dziekanski murder, and on many other occasions here at SDA, I’m not one to typically side for the police, just because they’re police. In this case, someone robbed a bank, took hostages, all bets are off and their (the bank robbers) chances of surviving any onslaught of police action is up to the luck of the draw.
I’m surprised nobody mentioned that the bank robbers / hostage takers were latino and you know, like “all police”, they’re bad.
or something like that. (some sarc!)
Here’s an example of police being told to stand by, instead of simply arming up and taking this nutcase away to jail. The police in this case were forced (by their superior officers) to wait outside the bus and watch. The man that bore the brunt of this tragic outcome was already dead. The police didn’t have any reason to hold back, yet they did. I don’t agree with this method of policing… and may God have mercy on his soul.
today:
http://news.nationalpost.com/2014/07/17/six-years-after-vince-li-beheaded-a-greyhound-passenger-another-death-mountie-at-the-scene-commits-suicide/
From what I’ve seen this seems to be a completely disorganized response by the police. In the section of the video where it seems that every cop car in Stockton is headed for the bank, a police helicopter flew by. That alone would have been enough to track the bank robbers vehicle and, depending on the route taken, a more logical response could have been formulated. Having had cops as patients as well as shooting on a range where cops requalified, their level of marksmanship is abysmal and we’d all be far safer if all cops were unarmed aside from those who qualified to a much higher standard of marksmanship than is currently required.
This incompetency will likely be used in the next robbery by individuals who don’t mind shooting it out with cops and are smart. All that one needs to do is to shoot up a bank, trigger a brainless lemming-like migration of every police car in Stockton to the location and then execute a much larger scale robbery somewhere else. Given that during the time the police are all concentrated in one spot the rest of the city is essentially a police free zone and a small group of armed men can take anything they want and get away with it.
Normally criminals are interested in self preservation but there are certain religions where surviving an attack on what they perceive to be their enemies is not at all a factor in their planning. Thus, if a group of individuals from TROP were to carry out a distributed attack/robbery, then it would be successful. I blame to a large degree the affirmative action policies of police departments and the deliberate selection of individuals for police work based on their ability to follow orders without question rather than on the basis of intelligence and being able to think for themselves.
“In this case, someone robbed a bank, took hostages, all bets are off and their (the bank robbers) chances of surviving any onslaught of police action is up to the luck of the draw.”
F*** the bank robbers, if they want a shoot-out with doughnut munchers that is fine by me, and I do hope that the doughnut munchers will win. But perhaps if there is a hostage in a vehicle the tactical geniuses could avoid spraying it automatic fire? What do you think? Sounds reasonable?
Do you think that if the RCMP sprayed the Greyhound bus that would have helped? Me neither.
Coincidently, above you have mentioned that cops should be better armed and not just have pistols against bandits’ AKs. They appear to have full auto weapons. In all likelihood these were ARs although some departments still use SMGs mostly MP-5s. In any case they were armed to the teeth… and they should not have been. First of all, they should all give up their Glocks or whatever they use and go back to revolvers. When you have six rounds and the reload takes longer you actually bother to.. you know… aim. Second, apart for SWAT (use of which in this situation was justified unlike in majority of situations they are used) they have no business carrying M4s. Pump action shotguns in case they need more immediate fire-power (for those who qualify I have seen cops shoot, I am an ok shot but far from a marksman, yet can out shoot most cops I’ve seen shooting with both a handgun or a pump) and bolt/lever action rifles in case they need to reach beyond shotgun range, should be all they have in their cruisers. Handgun ammo fed carbines could be an option too.
“Do you think that if the RCMP sprayed the Greyhound bus that would have helped?”
They sat in lawnchairs and waited till tim cut the guys head off. I call cowardice on that.
At that rate of competent pay them same as a house cleaner, if that.
You missed my point, entirely. I know what they did and am not defending that. Had they behaved like Stockton cops it would not make things better either.
The US is so screwed. They’re a bankrupt police state, with an out of control drone assassination program in Pakistan,… telling the Israelis to go easy on enemy non-combatants in Gaza.
Whatever happened to the bastion of real freedom?