Those who thought Greece’s problem was that they didn’t have enough debt can rejoice! They’ve generously agreed accept a 120 billion Euro “rescue package”. This should work about as well as IMF involvement in Argentina in the 1990s, after which they concluded:
The IMF should refrain from entering or maintaining a program relationship with a member country when there is no immediate balance of payments need and there are serious political obstacles to needed policy adjustment or structural reform.
Greece hasn’t even begun to balance their budget and they show no inclination to accept the changes really needed. If Greece can’t face their current debt why would anyone think pushing the problem down the road three years and making it bigger would be a solution? Madness.
All over the world we have countries, provinces, states, people groups etc. who have been allowed to leech off others to the point they feel they are entitled and will rise up using whatever means necessary to maintain their sloth. In Canada we have the natives, Quebec, nova Scotia, PEI, New Brunswick, Manitoba and the territories who act like Ontario, Alberta and BC owe them. Sadly the feds have supported this so long the goose has died. Worldwide the US is finished and the EU is in it’s death throes. The longer leaders and citisens take to stand up the more unlikely it is anyone will. We are near to where the world and all people will be ruled by the Chinese and Muslims. Now that will be a just society.
If Greece can’t face their current debt why would anyone think pushing the problem down the road three years and making it bigger would be a solution?
Three years? Try “kicking the can down the road three months.” The Greek government is gonna use this bailout to pay off their previous debts.
Well, some of them, anyways.
Why shouldn’t German taxpayers pay for Greece’s excesses?
They lost the war after all.
Can’t wait for a North American Union so that Canadian taxpayers can cover the American housing market better, and supply Mexico with universal health care.
Socialists? Where are you? Hello? Where are all the left-wingers? Please explain why socialism works so well when it has bankrupted every country that has embraced it.
Every juristiction that embraces an extensive welfare system hits the fiscal wall sooner or later. over the next decade it is likely that there will be none of them left save perhaps Norway where they have huge per capita oil revenues to pay for it. By then socialism and welfare statism will be well and truly abandoned as an option for governance.
And that is the ultimate benefit of the turmoil that we are seeing today.
End of the end? Begin the beginning? The end inning of the Bigending?
The law of The End of the socialist Honey Pot:
“the level of debt goes up substantially and one day you just can’t pay,” he told Bloomberg.”
The Second Law:
““In a democracy, no problems are solved — they are just postponed until the ultimate crash will destroy everything.””
The question is: Will Turkey help?
…-
“Faber: Greece Needs 50 Percent Debt Writedown
Economist Marc Faber, publisher of the Gloom, Boom and Doom report, says Greece needs a debt writedown of as much as 50 percent.
“They would have to pay back 30 to 50 cents on the dollar,” and the banks would have to take the losses, Faber says.
“If it’s bust, doesn’t help to extend loans or increase loans,” he says, comparing Greece to a corporation that has gone bust.
Those who lent money to Greece and bought its bonds should have looked more carefully, says Faber and should bear the brunt of the losses, Faber says.
“There was excessive consumption (in Greece) and when you have excessive consumption, the level of debt goes up substantially and one day you just can’t pay,” he told Bloomberg.
Faber says he’s not sure that Greece’s problems signal the beginning of the end of the euro zone, but stresses that the bailout Greece package currently on the table is “simply postponing the problem.”
“In a democracy, no problems are solved — they are just postponed until the ultimate crash will destroy everything.””
http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/2505068/posts
Gord Tulk
Yep…these are the last gasps of the COLD WAR…a mopping up phase so-to-speak.
The EU was the proto-type for the lefty global village—-but it looks like it didn’t survive long enough except to be an example of what NOT to do.
Shouldn’t the bankruptcy of the European Nations be the impetus to start one of those wonderful European Wars? You know,the ones where we all get invited to participate,and get a ribbon to take home?
Or are they not capable of anything but riots in their streets anymore?
Seems all EU Countries are quite good at that.
Trent, regarding your question, socialist countries’ “leaders” & “economists” remind me of the clueless blonde in the old blonde joke: “I can’t be broke, I still have lots of checks!”
Public sector unions and an entitlement society destroyed Greece and it will eventually destroy all the western world unless we stop that stupidity. Nothing good comes easy and that is the lesson.
Retirement at ages 45 to 50 with generous pensions is not sustainable and Greece the proof. The lesson is not yet learned of course because the Socialist mind is juvenile and refuses to grow up.
The IMF is really no nation’s “friend”. Debt insolvency and claiming resource concessions as collateral is their game. New Zealand and Itally just dodged an IMF bullet but Argentina and Greece wont.
M, I think you can take Ontario out of your equation. Under socialist McGuinty it is California North.
In a discussion last night my friend’s son, who has always been as socialistic as his parents, is finally starting to see the resulting disaster of the left’s policies. He is still trying to blame Capitalism so he is not out of the socialist sinkhole yet but slowly, slowly..
Jaeger: “…why would anyone think pushing the problem down the road three years…”
It buys some time for the other countries waiting to fall to get their sh1t sorted out.
Don’t forget, Greece is only the first domino. Right behind it are Portugal, Italy, Ireland Spain. [PIIGS] England and France are none too healthy either. Eastern Europe is hanging on by a thread.
Remember what just happened with Lehman Bros.? It nearly destroyed the entire global monetary system. If not for TARP and a few other things people would be doing transactions in gold right now, cash only. No COD, baby.
A Europe-wide bond default/restructure would Make Lehman look like a minor inconvenience.
Greece alone would be almost as big as Lehman at ~$300+ billion in bonds, so they could probably weather that. But not the whole P.I.I.G.S. at one shot.
Furthermore, the whole point of the Euro-Zone is that they’ve already promised to do it. Member states use the common currency, Belgium does their banking, and promises to haul their chestnuts out of the fire if they screw up.
Imagine the carnage if the Euro suddenly folds. A whole currency goes bust overnight, people are going to -die-. By starvation and probably by war as well. Anybody think Vladimir Putin isn’t thinking about remaking the Soviet Union to include all of Europe?
Merkel had no choice. She had to write the check. We can only hope its enough. Otherwise you’re looking at $3,000 an ounce gold, $200.00 a barrel oil, and zero jobs.
Or, we could have another European war. This time with nukes. Could happen anyway, but maybe we dodged that bullet today. Cross your fingers.
And yes, absolutely socialism cause ALL of this. Obviously and inescapably. Greece is just the worst example, they all spend more than they have.
Over to you, trolls.
BTW:
IMO the single greatest public policy mistake ever was setting the age at which americans could recieve social security at 65 back in the ’30s – a fixed age that ignored improving mortality. from that almost every new retirement entitlement has had a fixed rather than actuarially calculated conversion age – and the collapse of these entitlements and the economies that were supposed to fund them is inevitable.
Had the age for SS been indexed based on life expectancy the retirement age would now be somewhere north of 80 according to George Will and citizens of the western world would be a lot more accountable for their retirement funding.
“Shouldn’t the bankruptcy of the European Nations be the impetus to start one of those wonderful European Wars? ”
Might be.
This time, when the Germans decide kick the crap out of France and the UK, we shouldn’t spend our blood and treasure to bail their butts out of the fire.
Let the Germans have it all. There are far too many wonderful Canadians buried in European soil from last centuries euro turf wars.
France & the UK aren’t worth it anymore. The Germans can sort out the Teat Economies.
“Public sector unions and an entitlement society destroyed Greece………etc” – Abe Froman
I agree but don’t forget that the weasel vote sucking politicians allowed this to happen and the same thing has been happening in Canada over the decades. And the voters, whore-like in their behaviour, gave their votes to the parties that made these expensive promises.
The indexed defined benefit early retirement public servant pension is the big gorilla in the room. If the gutless spinless yellow-bellied cowardly politicians had any guts, they would all present a united front and have these pensions converted over to ‘defined-contribution’ stlye pensions. For the long term good of the country.
Hell will freeze over first. Meanwhile the politicians will probably vote to allow elderly recent immigrants be entitled to the OAS after only 3 years in the country. Whoring for the ethnic vote.
What the world needs now is awake up call.The economy of Greece has been imploded by design.They are not the first nor will they be the last,there are hundreds of sites on the internet trying to inform us of the impending collapse of Western Society as we know it.To argue the merits of left vs right politics is a complete waste of time and energy the target of our disgust and frustration should be the global bankers and all those who participate in the exercises that bankrupt nation states and individuals alike.Goldman Sachs is the most powerful crime syndicate of all time they recruit the most unscrupulous of all to their ranks and when these people sufficiently prove their loyalty they are often inserted to key positions of power world wide.If you believe the American Justice system will do anything of lasting or meaningful consequence to prevent their looting of Ireland,Portugal,Spain please stay tuned to those like Max Kaiser,Bob Chapman,Edward G Griffith,Gerald Celentes,Catherine Austin Fitts and others who have been sounding the warning bells in some cases for decades.The corruption is so deep so wide and so complete in its application that nothing short of a complete rethinking of all that we previously held as absolute is necessary.Machiavellian principles have been used to divide distract and divert the public from any effective defense or offense against these forces.The TEA PARTIES are being demonized as racist and violent neither of which is true but the American Military and Police are training to quell all descent and protest of the government.We need to ask our selves why things dont add up,and what is the ultimate objective of the Global Bankers who have more money and power now than ever before in history.The gap between the super rich and middle class is widening month by month year by year.Please wake up people we need to look for truth ourselves dont wait until the truth becomes undeniable.
But if you watch the CBC the message you get is that Greeks don’t pay their taxes, like us good Canadadians. Pay your taxes and you’ll have nothing to worry about, slaves.
Mikeg, some of what you say rings true, but, governments borrow money because they create entitlement programs to get people to vote for them. To me, this is the great failing of our democratic system. After they have created these programs, they have to pay for them. They can’t raise taxes to pay for them, or they wouldn’t get reelected. They can try and print money to pay for them, but that destroys the economy. Banks are in the business of lending money. No one is forcing governments to borrow more money than they can pay back.
People in our societies have come to think that the government is there to look after them, but realistically they can’t do it without taking everything we have.
CanuckGuy,
Couldn’t agree more. I always marvel at the fervor with which politician pursue office. It’s not a particularly thankful job, the salary is not all that high and it’s lower than Lawyer and car salesman on the respect scale. So why do they work so hard and spend so much to get there?
Power over others, privilege and the unbelievable entitlements that follow after only six years of ass-kissing.
Who said “power should never be given to those who seek it”?
I’m glad I’m not a German taxpayer. Being a Canadian taxpayer is bad enough.
It’s amazzing how unresponsive the supposedly
“democratic” elites are.
John Lewis, don’t think we are going to escape paying for this. Canadian banks hold Greek bonds, of this you can be sure. The question is, how many? Hopefully few.
Furthermore, as part of NATO we are going to be expected to step up for more of these foreign operations, and we will be paying for that too.
Then there’s going to be the general haircut everybody takes as money gets moved around to cover this deficit Just think of it as a slow-motion bank robbery on an uninsured bank.
But this is only $300 Billion. Wait until Barry decides he doesn’t want to pay the TRILLIONS in US Treasury bonds he’s been selling. Can you say “Holy Crap!”? Sure you can!
Hey, just a thought. Can Greece get out of this obligation stuff by just billing itself as a “have-not” province?
Maybe one with a minority language, a historical grievance and a unique culture?
Quebec? Hell no! I was thinking about Newfoundland!
What? The Newfies aren’t belly-aching? Why not?
Posted by: Jamie MacMaster>
“….The Newfies aren’t belly-aching? Why not?”
Something due to non eligibility of entitlement and other affirmative action programs based on their fishing heritage I would suspect.
You need entitlements to qualify for civil bellyaching rights.
Minuteman you have completely missed my point,my credentials as an Antileft Trudeau hating Guntoting son of a bitch,would make any red white and blue American Patriot snap to a salute.What I want to convey is the uselessness of any further waste of time and energy on the need to argue left right politics.If I were granted one wish only it would be that the Canadian Leftists would be all corralled in central Canada to live with each other in the ultimate Trudopean society of waste stupidity and economic irresponsibility with no help from the outside.I believe that only the least intelligent of all would want to move to such a jurisdiction knowing full well that without a functioning private sector working class to tax and indebt from cradle to grave that they would all surely perish in misery.But back to the point,global bankers have backed both sides of both World Wars and have through out history funded the Marxists and Communists in an effort to bankrupt individuals and Nation States alike for no other reason than to maintain the momentum to bring about a logical problem reaction solution that will give them sufficient cause to institute a Global Government where taxes will be paid directly to the Banks cleverly eliminating the need to have useless Nation States who pretend to work in the interest of its constituents.
Jamie MacMaster – as much as I like Newfies (and I really do), I honestly think that as a Province Newfoundland might just be too out of it – let’s say: “Old-fashioned” – to have yet developed a knack for milking the grievance system.
The best scenario would be if all of the PIGS defaulted. They would no longer be able to borrow on the market and would be forced to immediately balance their budgets. The bond holders should not have assumed that these fiscal delinquents would be bailed out by the IMF.
Government are poor stewards of our money and have long stopped showing any signs of leadership. And society need to get a grip and realized that yes indeed there is no free lunch. People taking initiative and personal responsibility is what we need. And perhaps a small efficient government to facilitate personal liberty.
I sure hope a tea party like uprising happens in Canada. I would join. Governments have never solved anything.
Pay attention to Mikeg. Read The Creature from Jekyll Island.
Pay attention to Mikeg. Read The Creature from Jekyll Island.
So Canada and United States, among others, are now bailing out a member of the European Union. Does that mean Europe will chip in to bail out provinces/states that have financial problems? Look, if the EU wants to bail out Greece, fine, but I don’t know why I should have to…
Azphiks heres some thing else that explains the fractional reserve monetary system in video format.Go to www:gigisup.net there is a small screen on the right side it says watch this it is a video presentation 1hr. 23min. long. very informative and it goes into other timely subjects like derivitives and credit default swaps.
My daughter is studying in Greece right now, and if the cab drivers and the bus drivers aren’t both on strike on the same day, that is a good day. I can’t imagine what they are thinking.
Lefties can quote Malthus chapter and verse when it comes to mineral resources, but the idea that Malthus applies more properly to the govt tit, well, that is just beyond them.
One of the reasons for the Greek financial crisis has little to do with public spending on the Olympics.
Greek Wealth Is Everywhere but Tax Forms
New York Times
By SUZANNE DALEY
Published: May 1, 2010
http://www.nytimes.com/2010/05/02/world/europe/02evasion.html?th&emc=th
Garth ~ If Greece can’t face their current debt why would anyone think pushing the problem down the road three years and making it bigger would be a solution?
Three years? Try “kicking the can down the road three months.” The Greek government is gonna use this bailout to pay off their previous debts.
Garth, Can you say GM?
Trent: “Please explain why socialism works so well”
You are seeing it in real time.
maz2: “Faber: Greece Needs 50 Percent Debt Writedown”
naw, Greece needs to control their unions. Until they do, that is like putting a band-aid on a annurism.
Phantom, “right-on.”
It doesn’t matter. The whole Continent is sunk. God I hope some gazillionaire from Texas buys everything of historical significance in Europe – yeah, including the sad, ruined U.K. – and sets it all up on his ranch ASAP, before Sharia law is introduced, and everything gets blown up (like those Buddha sculptures in Bamiyan, Afghanistan) after Sharia Law is introduced.
Stonehenge, Arizona. Eiffel Tower, Texas (just outside Crawford). St. Peter’s Basilica, New Mexico. The Parthenon, Arkensas. The British Museum, just outside Fort Worth. You get the idea.
Garth ~ Three years? Try “kicking the can down the road three months.” The Greek government is gonna use this bailout to pay off their previous debts.
Can you say GM?
Trent: “Please explain why socialism works so well”
You are seeing it in real time.
maz2: “Faber: Greece Needs 50 Percent Debt Writedown”
Greece needs to control their unions. Until they do, that is like putting a bandaid on a aneurism.
Phantom, “right-on.”
Greece. Quebec. Not much difference, far as I can see.
In order to buy the union’s cooperation for the new austerity measures demanded by the IMF, the Greek government is giving everyone a 15% wage increase and will announce that the retirement age is being lowered to 49. They’re also implementing a new national holiday, German Appreciation Week. A week where Greek union members can stay at home and spend time with their families without having to walk picket lines or riot. Oh, and catastrophic dental coverage for everyone too and free tire rotation for the elderly and non-elderly.
Greece saved??….Black humour!
But if you watch the CBC the message you get is that Greeks don’t pay their taxes, like us good Canadadians. Pay your taxes and you’ll have nothing to worry about, slaves.
Posted by: Norman at May 2, 2010 12:55 PM
In a way that’s part of the truth as you have to pay your share in a taxed based system – the Greeks don’t, and don’t want to. It’s prevalent in their customs and the way they ‘do’ business – grease the palm first – efaristo-poly – thank you very much. THERE’S so much corruption of the Greek tax collecting base that I’m surprised it didn’t fall sooner.
They’ve raised all their public service workers wages 50% in 10 years then didn’t properly collect taxes to ensure the spending was in keeping with the tax revenues. Started many social programs and thought the funding would never end. The Greeks won’t change their ways overnight – they continue to blame all others for their stupidity in this fiasco – hence the violent protests, matches the ignorance they portray about their own country’s finances. AND you betcha they overspent on the Olympics, big time….and the new subway system – but am worried about the end result of this as you all are.
Merkel caved, she had to, the enormous pressures from all – they can’t/won’t let their EU dream die, like it should IHMO.
mikeg,
That is like saying that CDO’s were an invention to fullfill your worst dreams of global bank domination. IMO the reality is basic human greed and the urge to do as little as possible for what you get. There are negatives and positives to this human trait. Unfortunately when you combine it with almost all forms of political practise the result is inevitably disaster. Deficit spending was not an invention of government it was an extension of citizen greedand a fundamental desire for something for nothing!
So Greece borrows more money to get their finances in order. Fine.
And where does the money actually come from? But, of course, the EU countries will now need to borrow more money to lend to Greece.
This madness.
It’s interesting to think that had there been no Euro, the Greek currency would have imploded before their debt became such a huge issue. Greece could have printed money to pay off their debts.
The Greek people would still have suffered just as much under that scenario as this one.
The big difference is, that only Greece would have suffered. With their debt pegged to the Euro, they’re dragging the whole continent down with them.
Someone recently said that currency union has never succeeded without budgetary and political union.
Now we know why. And this sets the stage for political union … or political fragmentation. Ugly.