128 Replies to “If “Vatican” Was The Name Of A Mosque”

  1. Mouth the problem is Obama believes he is the saviour of the world. “… a light will shine through that window, a beam of light will come down upon you, you will experience an epiphany … and you will suddenly realize that you must go to the polls and vote for Obama” – Barack Obama Lebanon, New Hampshire.
    January 7, 2008.
    “The Messiah question is a loud one coming from all corners. Even a blogger for Mother Jones, the hot heart of the far left, worries that the Obama-passion will be used for nefarious purposes by right-wingers, he himself writes “Barack Obama has a messiah complex and no one will convince me otherwise.”
    The salty 62-year old Chris Matthews of MSNBC puts the phenomenon of Obama on the good book scale, telling the NY Observer that “I’ve been following politics since I was about 5. I’ve never seen anything like this. This is bigger than Kennedy. [Obama] comes along, and he seems to have the answers. This is the New Testament. This is surprising.”
    http://newsweek.washingtonpost.com/onfaith/undergod/2008/02/obama_the_messiah.html

  3. Here is an interesting executive summary of a fairly recent study on the sexual abuse scandal in the Catholic Church in the US. (It contains links to the entire report.)
    http://www.bringyou.to/apologetics/PriestAbuseScandal.htm
    Just from the graph showing the statistics of abuses per year by priests from 1950 to 2002, it appears to be an almost generational thing with cases of abuse rising rapidly shortly after 1950, peaking around 1979 and then rapidly declining to 2002.
    I would hazard to guess that this profile would be similar in Canada and probably Europe as well. I am not sure of the reasons for this profile and the profile may change because many cases are reported many many years after the incident.
    Let’s hope that in the US (and everywhere), the measures that the Catholic bishops are taking to screen new and older priests results in a newer generation of priests and stamps out the awful abuse.

  4. Obama’s messiah complex is an integral part of his pathological narcissism.
    bleetmouth – I said that Obama is a pathological liar; his comments to the Christian publication are manipulative..to put them in his control, as a narcissist must do. Note that since leaving Wright’s church – he attends no church.
    Hiring two ‘Jews’ doesn’t mean that he’s not anti-semitic. That’s not simply tokenism but being born into a Jewish family doesn’t mean that one cannot be anti-semitic. As I said, and you ignore, watch Obama’s actions. His blaming Islamic fascism on the Jewish ideology of Israel is an anti-semitic act.
    Again, I criticize, strongly, Israel’s political actions; I don’t merge those actions with any religious ideology for, except for the orthodox claims on Judea/Samaria, I consider Israel’s agenda is political not ideological (water and protection).
    Obama hasn’t a clue about the ecology or population dynamics and by his words AND actions, shows that he considers that Islamic jihadism is caused by the I-P situation. After all, he rejects Islamic terrorism in itself; he won’t even allow the words to be used.
    His being a pathological liar is proven by his constant contradictory statements about everything from health care to Muslim ‘accomplishments’ to jobs created to his being a devout Christian…
    His being anti-white is proven by his written statements in books, his off-the-cuff statements about race (Cambridge) and the fact that he didn’t walk about on Wright’s constant anti-white preachings.
    His being anti-American is proven by his apologies to foreign leaders for America Before Obama, as well as his contemptuous remarks about Americans who dissent from His Great Policies and his disdain for Congress’ duty to represent the people.
    It’s useless debating with you because you are unable to analyze the contradiction between the slick words of a manipulative politician, which you believe without any critical analysis…and their actions.
    You simply can’t see beyond what a politician puts right in front of your nose; you don’t THINK, you don’t analyze and compare rhetoric and actions. Obama is a pathological narcissist; his rhetoric has ONE agenda – to put you in his control. He’s quite successful with you.

  5. “The God I worship, Father, Son, and Holy Spirit, isn’t magic. There’s nothing magic about God. But, He’s real, He’s mystical, He’s all-powerful, He’s loving, He’s a healer, He’s beyond our ability to describe Him, which is why Christians turn to art, music, sublime works of literature, and acts of love, healing, and charity as a response to His MAJESTY.”
    As I stated in my post at 4:47, Batb, if your god is like you write why did he not protect the most innocent of his followers, children, from his own chosen servants, his priests? Instead he consigned these children to a live of bitterness and shame while his priests just continued on.
    I don’t hate your church but when you and other posters pound the drum of religious morality and how our civilization is collapsing because an increasing number of people are simply indifferent to religion as it has no meaning in our lives then I must object. Somehow we agnostics or atheists are now the enemy to be shunned, patronized or attacked.
    This running sore of child abuse by your clergy must be fixed and hopefully will be. I have discussed this with my neice, who is RC, and her response was that though she still will remain a Catholic she would never leave her children alone with a priest and is always watching.

  6. Knight99, you’re right about pedophilia in other churches, which seems to ride under the radar of our investigative journalists. I know, and have known of, pedophile priests in the Anglican Church who were largely protected by the hierarchy because they espoused the progressive left-liberal “orthodoxy” of making G*d’s Church “open,” “tolerant,” and “diverse,” despite the fact that that meant throwing over the Biblical tenets of our Judeo-Christian faith and, in many cases, creating, whole-cloth, revisionist interpretations of biblical passages — one, alleging, for instance, that Jonathan and David were actually homosexual lovers.
    If anyone wants to talk about self-righteousness, one needs to look no further than the progressives in all of the churches, who went along with the idea that the sexual revolution actually freed us from bondage. What a disaster that’s turned out to be.
    valster, as far as women priests go, just take a look at the rapid decline of many Protestant churches once the priesthood has been opened to women since the ’70s. I am fully supportive of women in ministry who do fantastic, and often prophetic, work, but am not in any way clear that their being priests is necessary to their fully and effectively carrying out ministry in the Christian church. I am giving the Anglican Church in Canada, for instance, about another 20 years before it collapses from within. Over 50% of its priests are now women, many of whom have brought left-lib, Wiccan, feminist, anti-male, ideas and practices into their ministries with the result not of building up the Church and its mission but, rather, of causing nasty divisions and internecine warfare. A good many of the female Anglican priests I know and know of have gone through bitter divorces and bear a rather pronounced animus to men.
    cconn, thanks for the contribution of that graph showing that ” … cases of abuse [rose] rapidly shortly after 1950, [peaked] around 1979 and then rapidly [declined] to 2002.” There is a definite correlation between the loosening of (biblical) morals and “family” values after WWII and during the sexual revolution of of the ’60s and ’70s. But, of course, the progressives are too intellectually lazy and dishonest to acknowledge the connection — though they’re all too ready to lay blame on “the Church,” and on the Roman Catholic Church’s policies of celibacy and an unmarried clergy.
    Dave: ” … if your god is like you write why did he not protect the most innocent of his followers, children, from his own chosen servants, his priests? Instead he consigned these children to a live of bitterness and shame while his priests just continued on.”
    Oh, come on. G*d has given us free will and it’s a fact that bad things happen to good/innocent people — ‘always has, always will, whether or not you believe in G*d. G*d is not a cop; He’s the Creator of the Universe. He’s not a puppet master, controlling our every move. He has given us all the tools and teachers we need to set us in the right direction towards a fulfilling and generous life, which is what He desires for us, but it’s then up to us to choose how we go: “I call heaven and earth to witness against you today that I have set before you life and death, blessings and curses. Choose life so that you and your descendants may live …” Deuteronomy 30:19.
    None of us choose life all the time, and, yes, there are bad priests, wicked priests, who have made choices to abuse children. They will be judged accordingly. But, don’t blame G*d; He didn’t cause these priests to sin; in fact, He has given very clear commandments in His Holy Scriptures about how priests are to carry out their priestly roles which most definitely does not include abusing children. And, guess what? The vast majority of priests have chosen life over death, helping and enabling ministries over the abuse of others.
    Who/what, however, has encouraged priests to turn to pedophilia to “fulfill themselves”? Look no further than the new progressive, sexually freeing (sic and sick) dispensation of the past half-century in our institutions of “higher learning,” our left-liberal media, and, yes, in our churches. Therein may lie the answer about on whom you may legitimately lay blame, Dave — and on the individual priests who have abused the gift of free will given them by their Creator.

  7. Batb, you are missing my point. You keep claiming your all powerful, all knowing god will judge these priests. These are his creatures, his church, his subjects, he picked them according to your dogma. You believe god exists, well why doesn’t he look after his own and stop this abuse. Obviously the priests, bishops or cardinals do not fear him as nothing happened to them despite their vicious crimes. No lightning flash striking them down, no angry voice from on high, simply nothing.
    By spinning that outside pressures of our liberal society may have caused this is just deflecting the blame while you circle the wagons, which is the absolute wrong thing to do, IMHO. This has been going on for centuries and happens around the world in the church.
    Believe what you want to believe, I don’t care, having read your posts over the years I know you are a great teacher and person. At the very least I hope this sordid saga of abuse will stop the moralizing from the church and its followers. The Pope and his church leaders must purge this disease and humble themselves before the righteous anger of their parishioners or it will tear the church apart, which no one wants to see happen.
    We all travel different roads through this life, who is to say which is the right one, certainly not me, and I won’t criticize the one you choose to travel on.

  8. batb, I said “Time’s up boys!” above because the RC church poobahs can’t sweep priestly abuse under the carpet anymore like they used to. No more hiding. They will either end it, publicly and loudly, or everyone will know the church quietly condones it.
    If they are seen to condone it, almost everyone will stop going there. The RC church is not the only Christian church in existence, plus devout Catholics might just decide to start their own New Improved version without the child abuse. It wouldn’t be the first time there was a schism caused by management issues either, would it?
    Time’s up, either way.

  9. Valster: The reason women are not priests, is because Jesus did not appoint women to be so. We carry on our tradition in the Catholic Church as it was from Jesus’ times, despite what many protestant and other denominations and even non-Christians believe. Priests represent Jesus, Jesus was a man.
    That being said, women do have a big role in the church. In fact, they were the ones that discovered Jesus had risen, they helped spread the word.
    I believe that people who dwell on this, are either simply uninformed or have nothing else in their lives to worry about, and need to thank God for this.
    Abe:
    “I should state that I am Christian in that I believe in ‘Christ the man’ and what he had to say”.
    You cannot claim to believe in what Jesus said, if you bash the Church. The Catholic church is passed on from Jesus. He said He is God, there is Heaven, there is Hell. He said to follow Him, and those that do, will live happily in Heaven. He said he is giving us His body, His blood. He lost many followers because some did not believe this.
    I do not mean to judge what you believe, but I am making an educated guess that you only believe in the philosophy of SOME things He said or how He was a good person. There are many good people in the world. Something must be drawing you to Jesus besides being a good person, otherwise you would look to people in your life for guidance in life. The fact of the matter is, every human has morals, ethics. We do not just have these, from space or science. These are from God. God is the creator of all. He knows all, sees all. He holds and has given us the Truth.
    I pray that you will one day look closely at the word of Jesus, actually study it, know it and live it. The Catholic Church holds His words, teaches them, lives them. The Church is a living church. God Bless.

  10. Sociologist compares today’s crisis in the Roman Catholic Church to Nazi smear campaign:
    http://ncronline.org/blogs/ncr-today/sociologist-compares-todays-crisis-nazi-smear-campaign
    Phantom, I hear and totally empathize with your anger. However, what devout Catholics will do — aware that although this is a terrible scandal, it’s certainly not the first time in the nearly 2000 years of the Catholic Church’s existence that it has been rocked by scandal — is to pray for healing for the victims AND the perpetrators, for G*d forgiveness of the miscreant priests and those who mishandled the abuse, and for guidance as to the way forward for the best of all concerned.
    Devout Catholics will not leave the Church. They know that the Church is filled with frail human beings — not just the abusing priests but, also, them — and is going to fall short of the glory of G*d and, therefore, it will need to rely heavily, and always has done, on the power and mercy of the Holy Spirit. Devout Catholics will pray for G*d’s strengthening and restoration of this broken vessel, knowing that we are clay in the Potter’s Hand. When a clay pot is badly turned, the potter will break it and start over. G*d is allowing the Church to be chastened, which can only make it stronger if the Church does put an end to this abomination which, I believe, is the Church’s intention.
    But, please remember, that G*d is not a cop or a puppet master. Whatever the RC Church does to put an end to child abuse among its clergy will not put an end to every and all misdemeanors, because fallen human nature, very much present in every priest, can often and sadly be very devious. (There’s often another player at work here who announces his presence by the distinct smell of sulfur; spiritual warfare is no joke.)
    Expecting the RC Church to be perfect, with no blemishes, is totally unrealistic, although those worldwide expectations certainly make the RC Church the favourite scapegoat and whipping boy for … well, those who tend to be unbelievers or have a bigoted hatred of Catholics.
    “Judgment begins in the house of the Lord,” something that the leaders of the RC Church are totally cognizant of. They are making changes.

  11. “The RC church is not the only Christian church in existence, plus devout Catholics might just decide to start their own New Improved version without the child abuse.”
    The Catholic Church is the original, handed down from Jesus. Those that know this and understand what goes on in the CC will never leave it. It is the Truth, Phantom, the Word. It is what we live by.
    People won’t quit the Church. It has proven it’s strength over 2,000 years. It has had ups and downs and will continue. She won’t condone this behaviour. There have been people that don’t believe in what the CC does or teaches. As you said, there are other Christian churches. But, look at what church thrives, lives…Many protestants realize in their lifetimes what they are missing in their churches when they really look at the CC. It is an amazing story to hear when someone from another denomination comes into the Church.
    Dave:
    How easy life would be if God intervened in everything tough. He first gave us free will. We can do what we please, but if we do what He calls us to, we find happiness, and hopefully will be with Him in the next life.
    If we did not have challenges in this life, how easy it would be to get to Heaven. The point of this life is to prove to God, He is our number one, to spread His word and live as His Son did. No, being Christian is not an easy calling. It is a sacrifice so we may rise after death. If people just did evil things, did not repent and still got to Heaven, what a weird god that would be! You need forgiveness and there is salvation.
    Anyhow, God Bless!

  13. So Batb, I take it you don’t believe in equality of the sexes….Hmmmm
    Interesting “stories” and even more interesting defenses of the RC church by pointing out the obvious…(worse religions out there)
    I think Abe Froman’s take on religion in general is pretty much spot on!

  14. Valster, equality does not mean sameness. To understand the male only priesthood you would have to have a full understanding of ancient liturgy most of which would be lost on you. You would also have to look at the number of women and men that would get up and walk out of a service led by a woman. I know of one bride who insisted her marriage be conducted by an ordained man rather than the ordained woman charged with the Anglican parish.

  15. ARE YOU KIDDING, valster? I certainly DO believe in the equality of the sexes.
    Equality of the sexes doesn’t mean that we all do equally well in the same roles — that’s an appalling Utopian lie. Women don’t make very good fathers and men don’t make very good mothers.
    Grow up! Just because women don’t make very good priests — I’m open to persuasion, but in 30 years of knowing women priests and having experienced their not very efficacious effect on various churches — doesn’t mean that women’s abundant and myriad gifts can’t be celebrated in the ministries of the Church — and that they haven’t been for over two centuries (in the Old Testament we frequently hear of wonderfully gifted women).
    For G*d’s sake, do your homework. Priesthood isn’t everything, though it’s a wonderful gift — (but you’d better be called to it, rather than choose it for yourself because of some supposed “power” attached to it). In fact, it’s a damned difficult calling, perhaps the hardest. To put all of a church’s ministry eggs in the priesthood basket is madness — and we see the results about us every day. By G*d’s grace, the Roman Catholic Church allows women many outlets for their gifts.
    I once had an Anglican priest tell me that if I wanted anyone to take me seriously or listen to me I had to become a priest.
    GIVE ME A BREAK.

  16. BTW, being a priest is all about service and sacrifice not power.
    There are any number of ministries for women in the Church, all involving service and sacrifice, that are just as important as priestly ministries.

  18. ‘you would not search for me if you had not found me’……
    pascal and i are on the same page of the prayerbook……..
    HE is ineffable and transcendant…HE favours mercy kindness and humility over the ‘other’ fellow’s manifesto…everyone….EVERYONE seeks warmth and comfort and kindness…even the vilest sinner seeks comfort and love…and HE is slow very very slow to wrath but terrible to behold when contemplating HIS justice…
    that is all ye know or need to know…

  19. People, being people, need to cling to something – be it guns or religion or guns and religion. It really doesn’t matter either way because our life on earth is short and we are really quite inconsequential in the big scheme of things. Life is a journey not a destination. Enjoy it while you’re here because when it’s done, well, it’s done. Ashes to ashes dust to dust. We carry on in our children and our childrens children, isn’t that enough?

  20. kelly: “Life is a journey not a destination.”
    Hmmm. Where have I heard that one before? I think Vitruvius made the same observation a few days ago.
    Well, although the journey’s important (I had all sorts of adventures hitch hiking through Europe after I graduated from college and my life’s been a roller coaster ride ever since), I’d have been a little ticked off if I hadn’t arrived anywhere — and if I still don’t.
    “Without a vision the people perish.” Destination: Promised Land. ‘Not just the journey for me, thanks.

  21. ME,using your words, “How easy life would be if God intervened in everything tough. He first gave us free will. We can do what we please, but if we do what He calls us to, we find happiness, and hopefully will be with Him in the next life.”.
    I am not questioning about your god’s ability to intervene in everything but if he won’t defend his own church when does he intervene?
    In your words these priests are exercising their free will and obviously finding happiness in molesting children and do it for their whole lives within god’s church so they must be following god’s plan. Is it god’s plan for the children to exercise their free will by submitting to this molestation? Doesn’t sound like god is giving much happiness to these children as they appear to suffer for the rest of their lives. Maybe I am missing the big picture?

  23. Posted by: batb>
    Just a curiosity batb,
    Why do you always write “g*d” and not god, or God?
    I presume it’s either out of reverence or fear, but maybe something else. I realize that you are not the only writer who does the same, but is there any reason or “law” that makes it the correct way to refer to the creator? After all the bible uses God, and to my knowledge it has never been outlawed or officially been politically corrected to vilify writing the word God……….

  24. Knight 99, I put an asterisk to replace the middle letter in G*d more out of deference to folks whose faith precludes their naming G*d. G*d is a sacred name and in this public space, I don’t mind taking into account others’ sensibilities in this instance.
    When writing to my own friends I always refer to G*d without the asterisk.

  26. Batb, I am waiting for your response to my 2:19 post unless you agree to just disagree and lets move on.
    I can’t remember the poster but he linked religion and the left and I think they are the same though you disagreed. Both rely on faith and if challenged will respond by personal attacks. I think this is why all of us fear the rise of islam as criticism no matter how constructive or even questioning will be met with far more than debate.

  27. I’ll try to answer some of your misconceptions in your 2:19 post, Dave, but it’s late and I need to get to bed.

  28. Dave:
    People that commit horrific acts, such as this, I suspect, are not happy people. I have no insight into what they are thinking at the time, but I imagine afterwards, they do not feel so noble. Perhaps they do. But that is not love, not God’s plan, and God judges accordingly at their death.
    God does not intervene (by intervene, you must mean strike down those that are blemishing it) and “save His Church”, because he knows that we are humans, and as hard as we try, sin occurs. God is cleaning his Church, by bringing these things to light. IT will never be perfect, it is run by humans on earth. I think the MSM is a bit biased and misinformed. It’s funny how people take their words for truth when it comes to the CC, yet we critisize their investigative abilities most other days. You should look to letters in the papers from archbishops and letters from the Pope himself. We are taking action now, and I think a little “perpective” is needed, as per Archbishop Richard Smith’s letter to The Edmonton Journal last week.
    God’s plan is not to have molesting priests as prey to His beloved children. If you look to the vast majority of priests that do not do this, but follow a life of sacrifice, love, guidance, etc. then you see what God’s plan is, and how many do follow it. Free will must be exercised with your conscious and prayer. God did not make us perfect. Even amazing priests sin, everyone sins.
    Are you actually saying children are exercising their free will by submitting? Are you kidding me? I don’t think anyone can convince you of anything if this is your thought process. These children are vulnerable. They trust, and this just happened to happen to them. God did not plan it! The priests in these incidences are using free will, are sick, and perform this act. God cannot reach in and stop them. These children will be damaged, yes, but they can choose to receive help for what happened to them and can create a good life for themselves. They can use prayer, God to pull through.
    You were missing the big picture, but (I don’t mean this in a superior way), people that lack faith, or trust or knowledge of God usually do think this way. I hope you can one day see God’s glory!
    Mouth:
    You just listed a common protestant arguement that is easily de-mythed. There are plenty of Bible references to make your arguement wrong. The problem with protestant denominations is that they tend to pick out one quote and base their arguement only on that one quote.
    Check out this page:
    http://www.catholic.com/library/Call_No_Man_Father.asp
    It does explain what you are arguing. I like the point that Jesus did not speak literally all the time. There is an example there. The purpose of calling our priests fathers is because they are our spiritual leaders on earth, they are to respresent Jesus here for us. Who are you to say they do not deserve any authority? If you had any clue of the Catholic faith, which you clearly do not, then you would not have this objection.
    We do not “idol” Mary, we honour her. Another common, uneducated “arguement”. Mary was chosen as the Mother of Jesus. The Ten Commandments state to “Honour your mother and father”. We do this. Also, Jesus passed Mary to the Mother of all when he was on the cross and said “Behold your Mother, behold your son” to John and Mary.
    Through Mary, we have Jesus. No Mary, no Jesus. We honour her, we pray through her.
    Jesus appointed a pope when he said to Peter, on this rock i will buid my church. You need to look into how the whole verse works though, not just this one line. Also, need to see the language and how the words were meant in the time Jesus said them. Jesus clearly wanted his ministry passed on through the generations, so others may be called to Christ. He said his kingdom is not of this earth when Pilate was questioning if he was a king of the Jews. You’re using Bible quotes out of context. I suggest you join a good RCIA class for the first few months, where you learn about what we teach. You clearly are not informed. If you look one inch into what the Church teaches and does, you will find deep scriptural meaning to it. Most people do not do this, as they are lazy, and would rather go on their own convictions and assume we are a big, bad, empire. Give me a break.
    Valster:
    I clearly indicated to you why we do not have female priests. You ignored that to say Batb does not believe in equality of the sexes? Read up buddy!
    The purpose of my messages are to inform, not to judge. I hope all you non believers come to see the light of Christ!

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