128 Replies to “If “Vatican” Was The Name Of A Mosque”

  1. murray….so I can abuse a kid,but I can’t rape one? It is NOT a question of which is better.They are BOTH evil.As i said before,ounce of lead behind the left ear,for both.

  2. “It seems to me that the question is whether the universe has a transcendental nature.”
    It does not seem to me to be the question. To me the question, is what kind of world will it be for my grandchildren’s grandchildren and what can I do now to improve it. For that I have no iuse for supernatural explanations or inferences based on operationally intractable assumptions or computationally intractable concepts. If a priests sees or suspects a murder, he should report it to the police and allow it to be investigated and dealt with by the justice system. Ditto child abuse. No need to invoke the “transcendental” here. The Catholic Church should be reporting suspected child abuse to the police for investigation, even if by their own clergy. As shown by the letter published last we written by Bishop Prince, this has plainly not been the case. And that letter was written after a public statement that the Catholic Church in Canada would report to the police. The Catholic Church thus has a credibility problem–they are not believed and people suspect they are concealing evidence of of their concealment of sexual abuse situations. A hasten to add, the reported Muslim position has no credibility whatsoever. Sure there is a double standard, but the Catholic Church should be proud that a double standard could even apply.

  3. Just having got out of my very last philosophy degree exam ever, I’d like to register a twitch with whoever keeps thinking that Plato’s Republic — the actual city — was anything but a form itself. You gotta read more of the canon, and you gotta realize that one of the major points of good philosophy is that it gets you thinking, “I could do better than THAT.” It’s supposed to spur you to action, it’s supposed to make you think and question and revise. It’s not supposed to dole out information from on high. Remember that no man was smarter than Socrates because Socrates knew that he knew nothing. That acknowledgment of ignorance is practically the whole point of Plato.
    Beauty is a form. Plato was a dualist — and forms had no material to them. Material only exists “down here”, and forms can exist without material. The highest form of all was the form of beauty. Given that the city in the Republic was Kallipolis, “beautiful city” we must assume that the city was never meant to be anything that would exist in the world but rather a form of the most beautiful city.
    The modern philosophers who treat it as a real city planning guide were missing that very serious bit and assuming that Plato was just a dummy. Remember that bit about acknowledging ignorance? Yeah. Not everyone likes to do that, precious ol’ Nietzsche included.
    Atheism is just boring by this point. Atheism can only truly exist with real, honest, Carneades-style skepticism. Skepticism ain’t just saying that knowledge is necessarily uncertain —
    Because if knowledge is NECESSARILY UNCERTAIN then so is too that sentence!
    And staying in that vortex of not believing anything including this sentence is very, very difficult.

  4. Justhinkin, you miss my point, sorry I was not clear. The Catholic Church does not purport to claim that it is okay to use children for sexual gratification. Their failing is in dealing adeqautely with the problem when it occurs, in the particular and systematically. So the “Catholic Church” as a collective organization is better, without saying that each individual priest in the Catholic Church is better, many of whom are despicable child molestors who abuse fiduciary trust of the most personal and sacred nature. My earlier post perhaps suggested a logical fallacy of composition I did not intend.

  5. Again, murray, thanks for your excellent comments on Nietzsche. It isn’t often that one finds someone who understands the real thinker – versus what pop culture has defined him as.
    I agree – one can never achieve certainty – also said by, among many others, Charles Peirce.
    And I fully agree with the requirement for both faith and the use of critical reasoning – which is a very Aristotelian (and therefore Peircean)axiom. It’s the basis of Pope Benedict’s Regensburg speech.
    And yes, I also fully agree; man and society are necessarily a combination of both the individual and the collective.

  6. saftety forced, Plato was an esoteric writer, too. Of course The Republic was a “noble lie.”
    As for certainty in knowledge, all science is theory refined through coordinated engagement with experience. Scientific theories gets revised and refined and generally improve, but remain incomplete and uncertain. Nonetheless, a good theory generates useful engineering along the way. A bad theory crashes airplanes. The fact no theory can be complete in accounting anything complex enough to generate non-linear dynamics, is inspiring for some and disorienting for others.

  7. ET, would love to chat over a drink some time. I’ve always been intrigued by commentary on C.S. Peirce, but haven’t had a chance to really pour through many of his writings.

  8. After reading all of these comments, I am not sure, uhh, uhh, uhh, what to say. I was raised Catholic, and yep, the Nuns beat the hellfire out of us, and even though I don’t get to church like in the Ole Days, there is still that fond belief in the 10 Commandents which is an excellent set of rules to live by.
    Getting back to the topic at hand it is no surprise that the Democrat controlled Media has nothing damaging to say about Islam seeing as how both organizations have the same goal; The death of Christ, again.
    ,

  9. “And as to Kate’s original post….it’s bad for RC priests to abuse kids,but OK for Muslims to rape 9 year old girls???? Give your head a shake.”
    Posted by: Justthinkin at April 16, 2010 2:42 PM
    Oh, a meticulous reader. Of course thats what is being said.
    Now you can put away the straw man. And maybe change your handle.

  10. Posted by: Abe Froman at April 16, 2010 2:21 PM
    Curiously, only the Church of Rome had Latin rites.
    The rest of early Christianity (just have a look at the map to figure out where that might be) allowed services to be performed in the vernacular of the local populace. Helps them understand the tenets of what was being taught and other simple stuff like that.
    Too bad your teachers let you down and how you allowed your bitterness to blind you. I guess it’s easier to reject based on your own experience than to search for a community that has a more positive tradition and can answer your questions better.
    Inner peace can never be achieved by embracing the temptations of the world and its deceptions.

  11. ET is a woman? News to me. I’ll bring my wife along.
    And does one have to agree with everything else another person believes to have a productive conversation? I just think ET would bring a lot to the table, so to speak.

  13. bleetymouth @3:50 – I’ve told you before, you need to provide evidence (links, quotes etc.) when you accuse people of terrible things. Try again: When did ET say that?

  14. Islam has far fewer cases of child abuse for the simple reason that they do not consider it abuse. Same logic applies to rape . Unfortunately,in these politically correct times,this must not be mentioned. All religions are equal,all cultures must be respected. To do otherwise may get one labeled as intolerant ,or the vilest of the vile,racist. Therefore,the people that usually parade their concern for others, to show their moral superiority,will not touch these subjects. They are simple cowards. Google ” death by marriage” to find some nauseating cases of abuse. You may notice that charges against the men involved are rarely mentioned. One recent example,last week, —http://sify.com/news/12-year-old-girl-bleeds-to-death-after-marriage-news-international-kejm4biicei.html

  15. Osumashi Kinyobe, prove there is no god, that’s easy.
    Think of any one of these children over the centuries but focus on today. Envision that little child whimpering in the night as one of these priests fondles or penetrates him or her and listen to their moans and cries of agony and pain. No one helps them as they sob in the night knowing this beast will be back. Got the picture. Not one priest but thousands, not one child but hundreds of thousands. Not just a priest but bishops and cardinals.
    All these men of god have been taught all their lives to fear god and speak of his judgement against those who would desecrate HIS holy church. Their whole life is supposedly to serve this living god and teach their church members of the danger of not following this all powerful, all knowing god’s rule.
    Yet each and every one of these servants of god obviously do not believe there is a god as despite their crimes against god’s flock nothing happened to them, they all lived a normal life span and died in their beds. Did this vengeful god with his awesome powers strike down these, his evil priests. Well, no, they continued in their abuse for their lifetime. Nothing happened.
    If these priests feared retribution when they died for all eternity would they have committed these unspeakable acts? They more than we know the dogma of the Catholic Church yet again they obviously do not believe there is a god to punish them. If they don’t why would you?

  16. Phantom: “The good they do in the world is poisoned by this behavior they to date have refused to address. Time’s up, boys.”
    I usually agree with you, Phantom, (I would like your Mom to hit Iggy with her purse if she becomes the GG), but you’re way off base with this comment.
    The Catholic Church may be tainted, but the good it does in the world remains — and probably accounts for a huge percentage of the humanitarian medical, educational, and relief aid in developing countries and wherever there’s a natural disaster in the world.
    Tragically, some very wicked priests performed unspeakable acts, which were not dealt with well at all, but they are but a tiny percentage of the Catholic priesthood. That in no way excuses them or the mistakes the Catholic Church has made in their tardy response, but it still remains that the vast majority of Catholic priests live sacrificial lives, have never hurt or abused a single child in their lives, and, in fact, have been mentors, coaches, spiritual directors, chaplains, fathers to countless Catholic youth and those who have no affiliation whatsoever with the Catholic Church.
    BTW, Laurie Goodstein, the writer of the March 25 article in the NYT had to REWRITE her article a week later because there were so many blatant errors — lies? — in it. Of course, unlike her front-page article which was full of inaccuracies, inaccuracies which she could easily have verified the truth/untruth of, her corrected piece appeared on page 6.
    On April 8, there was an article in the National Post by Father Raymond J. de Souza entitled The Pope and the press. It’s well worth a read.
    http://www.nationalpost.com/story.html?id=1af21fbf-e188-440d-8615-8c2deaae096b#ixzz0khCWI3nZ
    As for the Church’s “refusal” to address this issue, what does that mean? The present Pope has been working tirelessly to deal with this problem (remember, the Catholic Church is vast in its proportions) and he IS human. He’s not perfect and neither are any of the members of the CC or any other church, let alone any other institution.
    “Time’s up, boys,” or else … what?
    There’s no other institution in the world which has done good on the scale the Catholic Church has anywhere, at anytime, despite their many shortcomings. All they can do now, is admit the sin, which they have, try to address it and give restitution, and move forward being much more cognizant of potential and actual abuse problems, while putting in place strict protocols about how they are to be handled, which is what they’re in the process of doing.
    I’m grateful that you acknowledge the media feeding frenzy off the Pope and the Roman Catholic Church. It IS BS. Would that every public institution, all of which have problems with pedophilia, would be as accountable as the Catholic Church is attempting to do.

  19. Posted by: Dave at April 16, 2010 4:47 PM
    A ‘man of god’ would never perform acts of pedophelia.
    A deceiver, who promised to be celibate then went back on his word, would.
    You seem to have to two mixed up.

  20. mouth-bleet – did I say that? Whew. Try again. And read what I wrote.
    murray – yes, Peirce is well worth reading. There’s no-one like him; I’m a devoted advocate of his work. Be very careful about reading commentary on him; there’s a great deal of misunderstanding. I recommend, frankly, reading only Peirce. If you don’t want to read the massive collections (Harvard, Indiana) then read the smaller Buchler collection.
    Sure – it would be great to have a conversation; I’m in that Evil City, Toronto.

  21. Dave, sorry, your point does not prove there is no God.
    As mentioned in previous comments, people are sinful. Despite having a solid Truth to follow and Church to do that in, people fail and sin. All people. No one is perfect.
    This does not make molestation right.
    God challenges us in all of our lives. He decides in the end what happens to us. What we do in this life, will reflect what happens to us in the next.
    Get a grip. There is also pain, suffering, and hurt in the world in other realms. That does not make God evil or wrong or not there. He does not punish us with these things either. Everyone has free will. When faced with adversity, your faith can pull you through and make you stronger.
    We still believe because everyone is a sinner, and we learn from mistakes we make and others make. It would be a sad, sad world, if people stopped believing and practicing Catholicism because of others’ sins. The idea is community in the Church, but also you need to focus on your relationship with God. That is what will get you through.
    Again, the Truths the Church teaches are true, indestructable. Humans run the Church, therefore sin and wrong doing in it is inevitable, unfortunate and sad, but inevitable.
    That being said, it is the strongest institution ever in history, and that says something of its followers and those that run it. Jesus passed it down to us for a reason, and that is to call peopel to Him.
    Again, I truly hope non-believers see the light of Christ, and we pray for that every day at mass.

  22. Abe Froman: “I think perhaps religions have outlived their usefulness (other than for con men and perverts) … Nothing lasts forever, except the status quo of Canada’s mediocre health care system.
    “More coffee now …”
    G*d bless you, dear, you need more than coffee. ‘You think the Church has outlived its usefulness? It’s only for convicts and perverts? You need to do a little more research, and I don’t mean only in your parents’ basement or among the company you keep.
    I usually agree with you too, Abe, but your whole comment is just plain ignorant, which I find very upsetting. Too many usually reasonable Canadians are in the dark when it comes to religion, in general, and Christianity, in particular. Pierre Trudeau and his London School of Economic-trained aparachiks/henchmen … er, I mean, MPs, have been very successful in trashing the faith of our forefathers and mothers and, frankly, we can see the results all around us as our civil life becomes increasingly coarsened and brutal.
    If you don’t think that has anything to do with our society’s faith practices — or, increasingly, lack thereof — then you’ve been well and truly brainwashed.

  23. Everyone knows that god was incarnate in Charlton Heston “From my cold dead hands”. That’s why he was perfect for the role of Moses during his acting career.
    The fact remains that god favours neither the Christians nor the Muslims; he likes the Rastafarian movement the best. That’s why they live within western culture like deified saints, smoken da stuff and drinken da wine…………..yawl need to get on board before you miss da boat mon………………….

  24. Yeah but at least the pervert has to marry his victim first.
    Catholics lose again. 🙂 🙂 yeah
    homo’s!

  25. When bam bam can be worshipped it is not the fault of religion, it is the fault of the people. The same can be said of the hypocrites of any religion. They have been home to perverts,murderers, miscreants and liars. The religion does not make them what they are, they do.
    I watched a news report of a man that went into a swamp to look for a ten year old girl that was lost for four days. There were helicopters, searchers, infrared the whole toolbox. The man walked in a straight line reciting scripture and calling her name. When he heard ‘What?’ he had found her. He believes, she believes but the sheriff was suspicious and needed convincing. Who am I to say they are wrong?

  26. Oh, yes, and while the Catholic Church and Pope Benedict XVI have been working tirelessly for years to address the pedophilia abuse in their institution, the Muslim Imams are doing, exactly, what, about similar practices in their own religion?
    And the media, of course, is going to get cracking on investigative reporting and the resulting horror at what they discover about the routine abuse of young Muslim people, females in particular, aren’t they?
    Aren’t they?

  27. “Your arguments sound like freshmen blather. You are a classic “fallen Catholic” where you pick at odd things, such as dress and language (in Canada, nowadays, it’s in English, in most churches).”
    I have noted that in universities freshmen come with their own thoughts and ideas and will ask questions, challenge the stick at the front of the lecture hall or class room, but by the end the freshmen year … The freshmen has learned not to think or question the genius who is instructing him. And after than the freshmen will be brain-washed and never risk an original thought again. I am not insulted at your put downs.
    And I did say “if for no other reason” but there are other reasons. I quit church at age 14 and that was back in 1957, they still used Latin along with chilling Gregorian chanting. Just horrid.
    “Abe, with your scientific aptitude, please prove that God does not exist.
    Didn’t think you would.”
    Actually I do have a scientific aptitude. However, it is not for me to prove something does not exist … its complete invisibility is proof enough. “The invisible and the non existent have a lot in common”. I don’t remember who said that, but I like it.
    In any decent trial it is the prosecution/protagonist/preacher/you that must prove a crime has been committed, or in this case, that god exists. It is not for the defense/non-believer/me to prove that the crime was not committed or that a deity doesn’t exist. I cannot prove that something does not exist without some sort evidence, but since there is no evidence, nor could there be your suggestion is silly.
    Do you believe Allah exists? Approximately one and half billion do and without a shred of proof.

  28. I wonder why “Catholics” are the favoured pick of the month by the lefty media and other so called Christians who belong to the “correct” version of Christianity.
    What religion best describes the Boy Scouts of America? Lots of scandal there that gets lost in the dusty pages of time.
    It seems like the Anglican Church also has its share of global homo child abuse issues:
    http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/2497199.stm
    http://www.abc.net.au/news/stories/2009/06/17/2601119.htm
    So why all the hypocritical finger pointing?
    Understandably large organizations that promote trust and power over others will attract the worst of society. Unlike the cultural norms in Islam that allow pedophilia and its inherent child abuse under the guise of religion for all its practitioners, Christian laws are broken each time a cleric or priest defiles his trust of office. This is done in secret as a criminal act, not a cultural acceptance, nor an acceptance by his particular Christian denomination of any ilk.

  29. Before you send out the lynch mob … I should state that I am Christian in that I believe in ‘Christ the man’ and what he had to say. The goodness in his ideas are sensible and will lead to a better less harsh society. I subscribe to the ten commandments as well because they make sense. American law is based on them.
    However, I cannot bring myself to believe in the big magic guy in the sky. We now know too much about the universe to believe that it was created as a back-drop for the likes of us. When the solar system and a few twinkling stars was all there was … well you get the idea. We also now know what causes crop failure and thunder.

  30. Abe,
    Again, perhaps one day you will look beyond the exterior and see the beauty inside the Church. It is true, much of our beliefs are based on faith. Ful-filling faith. I will never convince anyone of faith, you must believe yourself. I can only live so others see Jesus, not me as a human. Our RCIA class, made up of about 30 people joining, were about half non-faith backgrounded people. THey heard God call, and they answered. Amazing.
    I myself love Gregorian chant. It is too bad that is all you saw of the Church. I was welcomed into the church in the 80’s, as an infant. I am witness to its wonderful acts.
    God Bless Abe, will pray for you.

  31. You’re a fool ABE!!!
    Indeed God is not an old man living in the sky.
    He’s a short dwarf like guy with wide ears by the name of Percy Picklback who lives on the end of my street. Every day on my way to pick wild mushrooms Percy tells me whether or not it’s going to rain and he’s right about 90% of the time……….it’s amazing.

  32. Do you believe Allah exists? Approximately one and half billion do and without a shred of proof.
    Posted by: Abe Froman at April 16, 2010 5:48 PM
    The proof is in the example and the test is time.
    Which understanding of God would you say has proven to be more beneficial to the human race?

  33. Abe Froman: “However, I cannot bring myself to believe in the big magic guy in the sky.”
    Well, guess what, Abe? I don’t believe in “the big magic guy in the sky” either.
    The G*d I worship, Father, Son, and Holy Spirit, isn’t magic. There’s nothing magic about G*d. But, He’s real, He’s mystical, He’s all-powerful, He’s loving, He’s a healer, He’s beyond our ability to describe Him, which is why Christians turn to art, music, sublime works of literature, and acts of love, healing, and charity as a response to His MAJESTY.

  34. FLORIDA COURT SETS ATHEIST HOLY DAY
    In Florida, an atheist created a case against Easter and Passover Holy days.
    He hired an attorney to bring a discrimination case against Christians and Jews and observances of their holy days. The argument was that it was unfair that atheists had no such recognized days.
    The case was brought before a judge. After listening to the passionate presentation by the lawyer, the judge banged his gavel declaring,”Case dismissed!”
    The lawyer immediately stood objecting to the ruling saying, “Your honor, How can you possibly dismiss this case? The Christians have Christmas, Easter and others. The Jews have Passover, Yom Kippur and Hanukkah, yet my client and all other atheists have no such holidays..”
    The judge leaned forward in his chair saying, “But you do. Your client, counsel, is woefully ignorant.”
    The lawyer said, “Your Honor, we are unaware of any special observance or holiday for atheists.”
    The judge said, “The calendar says April 1st is April Fools Day. Psalm 14:1 states, ‘The fool says in his heart, there is no God.’ Thus, it is the opinion of this court, that, if your client says there is no God, then he is a fool. Therefore, April 1st is his day.
    Court is adjourned..”;

  35. The linked article from the Globe is an example of why I don’t read the Globe anymore. They are lazy. So lazy, I’m not even sure they are actually biased.
    Nothing in the article is new, in spite of their claims or new ‘revelations’. That they call them ‘revelations’ implies that they are talking about facts – facts that have been in dispute for over a week now, everywhere. How does the Globe get away with this crap?
    As a believing, practicing Catholic, I’m not enjoying what the Church is going through, but as far as holding the Church accountable goes, I feel its just. On the other hand, I think the NYT and its subscribers(I guess that includes the Globe) are trying to take this opportunity to crucify, unjustly, the man that stands out in the church as having consistently striven for justice.(That would be the Pope). They (NYT et al) have their own motivations that have nothing whatsoever to do with justice. That bothers me, but it isn’t surprising, and I feel that the extra scrutiny and public pounding will ultimately be good for the church.(God can bring good from evil). It will probably help Pope Benedict with his reforming efforts. The Church isn’t going anywhere. The thousands of seminarians in new seminaries and the new religious in new convents aren’t going anywhere. Their commitment and faithfulness puts many of us older Catholics to shame, and they won’t be discouraged by news of sinners in our midst. Its no surprise to them that (men) are sinners.

  36. Pity the poor Roman Catholic Church. It has painted itself into a philosophical corner and can’t get out. The problem it has is how to remain fully human while trying to behave as though divine. How is it possible to forgive yet take action to prevent the evil resulting from human failing. Everyone amongst us has done something we might consider ‘stupid’ that others might consider wrong and once caught we are not likely to repeat. This is not the same as a person who is irresistibly drawn toward harming another human being such as happens when pedophiles attack their victims. I believe we can all see the difference between a child swiping a candy bar and a pedophile having sex with a small child.
    When a family acquaintance molested my daughter I forgave him but I did not allow him anywhere near children. The point is the RC church’s theological/philosophical belief leads to self righteousness. The Mennonites had a similar self righteousness in that they would not arm themselves in the face of immanent death and destruction. As a result people were killed. The fact is righteousness is determined by keeping the vulnerable safe not by blindly adhering to some theory about how the faithful should conduct themselves.

  37. When the solar system and a few twinkling stars was all there was … well you get the idea. We also now know what causes crop failure and thunder.
    But, we don’t know what caused Abe.

  38. O’bama’s anti semitism… tolerance for those that hate Israel, silence on islamic spread anti-semitism… and always bow to your masters O’bama.
    http://biggovernment.com/pgeller/2009/10/17/barack-obamas-anti-semitic-website/
    but getting back to Kate’s original question, why the silence, why the seeming acceptance of islamic child love? the BBC was certainly quick to pounce last week, it is almost with glee, that they announce any perceived crimes within the Catholic Church.
    Me No Dimmi points out at 12.21 pm, read the posting at Gateway Pundit, unless the insurers are giving special rates for the Catholic Church, and we know that they give special rates based on actuarial science all the time….

  39. bleet @6:52 – I’ll clue you in: You need to come up with a context. A date. A time. A place. An alibi. A frail. A motive. A drunken confession. Maybe a set of wheels. Maybe a bookful of last year’s dreams, turned sepia, curling up at the corners. Yeah, like incriminating photographs. Or a tape-recording, see? Some venetian blinds casting shadows, a love affair gone wrong, a guy who’s version doesn’t quite sit right, a lonely california night, a hunch you just can’t shake. Some cigarette smoke that puts the wrong chump at the wrong scene in just the right kinda way. A situation that might have ended up just like any other wholesome waste of a perfectly good afternoon except for the bad blood, and the bad luck, and the gun she carried, just to feel easier about things.
    You know what I mean, bleet? Or don’t you go by bleet, these days? Okay, mouth, I’m easy. Very easy – if that’s the way you want to play it, you can pretend to be whoever you want to say you are. It doesn’t matter to me, and it won’t matter to them. Nothing ever does.
    Here’d the dice, bleety, just um… you know… when you diss the lady, please provide a link!
    I’m not really a detective, so: Where did ET say what, and can you prove it?

  40. Fact is that Catholic theology forbids all sexual acts outside of Holy Matrimony, and yet, and yet …He granted us our sexuality. I think few of us here can even conceive of what pedophelia is, or what is the attraction; I don’t think it is sexual in reality. It may be what is called the sin against the Holy Spirit. Undefinable. When a priest was being arrested in the interior of B.C. a Native was asked by the media if he could ever forgive, he said that they had been taught to forgive by the Church, and that, yes, he forgave.
    Abe, last time I looked, women liked sex also.
    Much thanks to Me and Hans and batb and others who have such insight on the matter, and thanks to Me No Dhimmi for the thread.

  42. Abe – church is not heaven and heaven is not church.
    A great many people have been to heaven and back and told their stories. but like the bible says in the story of the rich man, Lazarus, and Abraham who asked God to send the begger back to earth to warn his brothers of the unquenched thirst and excruciating heat of hell, and God replied that even if one were sent back from the dead they would not believe.
    The story of heaven that I found most reliable was that of a four and a half year old girl who, if memory serves me correctly, drown. After the incident the young girl began to talk to her Grandmother about the room with the “hundreds” of babies that didn’t get to be born – she told her Grandmother she had met her baby (son) there and provided the correct name of the child that the Grandmother had given to her aborted baby – the Grandmother had never told anyone anywhere anytime about the abortion she had as a very young women.
    http://www.6bigangels.com/
    Luke 16:19-31
    There was a rich man who was dressed in purple and fine linen and lived in luxury every day.
    At his gate was laid a beggar named Lazarus, covered with sores,
    and longing to eat what fell from the Rich Man’s table. Even the dogs came and licked his sores.
    The time came when the beggar died and the angels carried him to Abraham’s side. The Rich Man also died and was buried.
    In Hell, where he was in torment, he looked up and saw Abraham far away, with Lazarus by his side.
    So he called to him, ‘Father Abraham, have pity on me and send Lazarus to dip the tip of his finger in water and cool my tongue, because I am in agony in this fire’.
    But Abraham replied, ‘Son remember that in your lifetime you received your good things, while Lazarus received bad things, but now he is comforted here and you are in agony.
    And besides all this, between us and you a great chasm has been fixed, so that those who want to go from here to you cannot, nor can anyone else cross over from there to us.’
    He answered, ‘Then I beg you, father, send Lazarus to my father’s house,
    for I have five brothers. Let him warn them, so that they will not also come to this place of torment.
    Abraham replied, ‘They have Moses and the Prophets; let them listen to them.’
    ‘No, father Abraham,’ he said, ‘but if someone from the dead goes to them, they will repent.’
    He said to him, ‘If they do not listen to Moses and the Prophets they will not be convinced even if someone rises from the dead’ (NIV)
    How true – Jesus Christ has risen from the dead, yet they do not believe.

  45. bleetmouth – my words stand on their own. Read what I said about Wright and don’t try to change my meaning – which you do constantly. Wright made a clear statement; he blamed not their role but their ‘Jewish identity’ for their actions. That’s the evidence.
    Equally, Obama follows Wright (and Michelle) and is anti-white and anti-American. His constant apologies for the America of the pre-Obama era are evidence of that and his disdain and contempt for the Tea Party – which the Democrats define as ‘all white’ is evidence. You cannot evaluate Obama’s words for truthful evidence for he is a pathological liar and relies on manipulation to put people in his control. You have to consider his actions.
    Obama’s actions stand on their own. He’s anti-Israel, blaming Islamic terrorism on the I-P situation. He refuses to acknowledge this terrorism as totally rooted in Islamic causes and ignores Muslim violence against Muslims and Christians; ignores Muslim repressive actions against their own people, etc.
    Criticizing Israel for its political actions is NOT an anti-semitic action but criticizing Israel as a religious ideology and blaming its actions on this ideology and stating that this is the reason for Islamic fascism IS anti-semitic. Obama sees Israel not as a political but a religious construct.
    Obama, by the way, is obviously not religious; he has nothing to say apart from the superficial, about any religion..other than the ‘sweetness’ of the call to prayer of Islam…and the ‘greatness’ of the contribution of Islam to the world (his Cairo speech). With regard to the other religions, he says nothing. As a narcissist, Obama’s only adherence is to Himself.
    Now, bleetmouth, you obviously won’t understand the above. Enjoy.

  46. just don’t know the reason why women aren’t allowed into the priesthood……seems quite “abstruse”

  47. I started reading this thread at work and continued it when I arrived home. I could not stop reading this one. The ideas, thoughts and the conviction behind them where very surprising (in a good way).
    I always thought most people on this blog where diverse and well versed in a myriad of areas. The conversation here has been riveting without anyone really going off there fury little minds.
    I only wish my father was alive to read this and add his 2 cents. You see he was in the seminary and a teacher at a residential school here in Canada. His appreciation of this thread would be known.
    Excellent thread Kate.
    God Bless you all.

  48. [quote]Your original point was that Obama is an anti-semite. I stated that Obama hiring two Jewish men to powerful positions in his White House tends to decimate your argument that Obama is an anti-semite.[/quote] Mouth
    Mouth, You do understand that Tokenism is a tried & failed defense of indifference. I don’t give a dam, but I hired two Jews..or Blacks or*****. It’s a dead givaway that can be very damaging to one’s career!

  49. Hitler’s socialist henchmen had Jews doing some of their dirty work and they did it just in an attempt to save their own skins.

  50. Mouth,
    My comment had nothing to do with Obama, it was your thought process. If you want to defend someone; don’t do it so badly… (that is sometimes called reverse psychology, or a bad defense lawyer)
    I leave the Anti-Semitic argument to Jews.. They seem to know what is and what isn’t…
    Ken, George Soros comes to mind…

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