When I found out that the Canadian government actually CHARGES its people for what should be free economic data, it kind of irked me. A way around it is to go to international organizations that compile the data anyway such as the OECD, IMF and the now bankrupt World Bank.
Didn’t know what precisely SDA readers would want, but since you all clamor about the wonderfulness of your health care system, I thought these charts might be relevant.
If there are any requests for any other type of data, please let me know.
SDA readers clamor about the wonderfulness of our health care system?
Captain, although it would be difficult to get the data, it would be interesting to look at the rate of growth of health care expenditures. It would be interesting to “zero” these countries at the 1950 expenditure level, and follow the trend from there.
Although nearly impossible, it would also be fascinating to look at expenditures in different age groups, and also those rates of change. One could hypothesize that the rate of growth is highest in youngest (neonate) and older age groups, related not only with increased longevity in the latter but also advanced technologies ($$) for both subsets.
An interesting point is that the US public per-capita health expenditures (i.e. non-private) was 3rd highest among OECD nations in 2007. I suspect this is not widely known – it is news to me.
health care expenditures v male/female?
does the top graph include private & public data as well, that might explain why the U.S. is spending so much more than everyone else, still freaky though
Wanna keep the generalizations about our enthusiasim about our train wreck of a health care system to a dull roar there Captain?
they have to charge for something since CBCpravda is reporting in great distress how we are not collecting money for the gun registry.
Take it easy on the Cap; he’s a crusty old salt, but he knows what time it is. We’re a tiny, tiny minority here when it comes to opinions about our health care system.
And now we have some sexy, sexy charts we can use to laugh in the faces of people who fear “US-style” health care.
I have no evidence to back this up, but I think the US doctors get killed on insurance and pass the buck.
Per capita numbers in the US are a bit dodgy due to the high number of Illegals not reported.
also the more even-handed way to do health stats is to do age-adjusted calculations as an older demo has higher health costs. This is the standard practice of the Fraser institute and others. And using Age-adjusted numbers Canada looks much worse compared to the likes of Japan and Switzerland.
Off topic:
Where is the dinasaur?
Kate?…no mention of the Globe-West collapse, on the verge of extinction?
that would be dinosaur . present tense for past animal
I believe Iggy Asper WAS a liberal , past tense for past person.
I know that this is waaaaaaaaay off topic but I beg your indulgence. There is a poll at Bourque.org that is asking who is to blame for Iggy’s downfall. You’ll never guess who has garned 60% of the votes so far.
Bet we can properly adjust THAT number.
What I want to know is how much of that US cash is spent on Lawyers and unnecessary procedures/treatments/tests.
How much of the Canadian cash is spent on free needles and drugs for junkies or duel citizens that use are system then go back to where they actually live.
I’d also like to know if chart 1 is the total amount of money spent on health care in the country including foreign money, non citizens, non residents, or is it just American money spent by Americans on Americans?
Does chart 2 include privet money spent outside of the country on health care? If I spend $10000 in the US on a surgery is that counted on the US per cap number or Canada’s or both or either?
Damn! Make that “garnered”. Spell check, Bob – splepp chick.
The greatest strain and pain on our HCS is still to come as the glut of Boomers pass through the snake without the tax base to support it.
We need a private health care option NOW.
Tahkns cal2; I’ll rmebemer taht.
http://www.photius.com/rankings/healthranks.html
I would like to know what percentage in both Canada/US is spent on the bureaucracies to “run” the system? Guarantee ours is probably around 15-20%.If possible,done at both the federal and provincial/state levels.
I am from BC but have been in Alberta for the last two months. I have now been afflicted with a serious medical condition and am overwhelmed with the efficiency of the Alberta medical system compared to the BC health care with it’s extremely long wait times. The access to specialists has been very prompt (a few days) whereas in BC the wait time to see a specialist is several months. Also, when I told the surgeon in Edmonton that I would rather have surgery done in BC because of closeness to family, he informed me that surgeons in BC are referring patients to Alberta in order to get surgery in a timely manner. Alberta’s medical system is far superior to British Columbia’s.
I propose the Turkish model until a lower cost solution is found.
Captain, the private expenditures in Canada come from private health insurance premiums, drugs paid cash (both prescription and OTC), dentists, psychologists, etc. It really adds up.
How does Luxembourg do it? does sin money pay for Aspirin and Band Aids?
amount of using in health care and
quality of work is important
all cost goes based
on number of peopell ive in country
such as Denmark has 5 million population and has
3362 number expenditure
and Canada has 30 million population and
has 3895 expenditure
and USA has 300 million people and has 7290
expenditure
this is means
Denmark doing good job now
plus quality is important
that Denmakrt pay for cost of drug free too
in Canada cost of eye check for adult and cost of
ambulance must be free
and cost of drug must get free
cost of how much pay to doctors and how many need to handle 30 million patien in canada is necesary factore
when one docto has too many patien can not handle them well
some fraud pay to doctor by car insurace to
agree that disable is not disable to
cut thier benefit need to reveiw too
all people need to have with photo id
and not need to have expirty date on it
this card can be use if your canadicna citizen
for new immgirant only need expirty date on it
american can not coem to canada to use free drug
some doctore and medicn in Germany aer much better than Appotex canada
all counry can share information to benefit parien in world
like have one driviing licence for some country and all country who has free drug plan can share togetehr
but US does not have free drug plan can not come to Canda to use it free
we must add more quality to health care and
expand more free eys glass or free medicine
why not???
Captain,
If you really want to make them cry start looking at outcomes & level of/satisfaction with service. I’d suggest the Commonwealth Fund (e.g., In Chronic Condition: Experiences of Patients with Complex Health Care Needs, in Eight Countries, 2008; Mirror, Mirror on the Wall: An International Update on the Comparative Performance of American Health Care) and the Fraser Institute (e.g., How Good Is Canadian Health Care? 2008 Report) as starting points.
Enjoy!
splepp chick.
Posted by: a different bob at October 6, 2009 7:46 PM
You’ve been reading new’s posts a bit too much, methinks. ;-}}}
US tort system accounting for a big chunk of their health care costs ??
Any Doctors out there know ? – A comparison between countries of the typical percentage of income a doctor sets aside(insurance premiums) to cover claims awarded to patients for malpractice.
In America, it seems they are spending lots on public health care already. More than Canada’s public system. More than all the other countries too, except Norway and Luxembourg.
Is the US system so expensive because the care is so good ? Or because the lawyers are so good ?
Maybe Sarah Palin is on to something .
ron in kelowna, here is the Canadian Medical Protective Assocation fees for Canada
http://www.cmpa-acpm.ca/cmpapd04/docs/membership/fees/2009cal-e.pdf
I believe that the US is a bit all over the map – but malpractise fees are becoming prohibitive, thanks to lawyers like John Edwards
http://www.pubmedcentral.nih.gov/articlerender.fcgi?artid=143569
Health care reform in the US could/should start with tort reform, but no government would allow that – too many lobbyists.
How much of those costs are due to military / veterans?
Do you know if the amount raised by charitable foundations is included in the amounts spent on healthcare? When I was in the states, I never saw the level of fundraising by hospital foundations that I see in Saskatchewan. For example, crown corporations purchase MRI machines and fundraising is expected to fully furnish and supply the future children’s hospital.
I recently found two estimates for the cost of the American malpractice “system”, 60 villion and 200 billion.
The range is so wide partly because it is hard to determine just how much defensive medicine is practiced, in order to avoid legal problems. (Defensive medicine is where most of the costs are.)
Another reason for higher US health costs is that US doctors are paid better than doctors elsewhere. Libertarian John Tierney suspects that may be, in part, because the American Medical Association has been able to restrict the supply of doctors.
Do Americans get better doctors because of the higher pay? I haven’t seen any studies of that question.
Where’s Cuba?
I just got home after a week in the hospital. A long time Type II diabetic, my pancreas finally gave up the fight a week or two ago, but unfortunately failed to text me in the event. I knew I was feeling worse, but it wasn’t until I went into “diabetic ketoacidosis”(unbeknownst to me) that things got really bad. I went through a period of non-stop vomiting (over 40 times in less than 48 hours) before I was able to get a friend to take me to Emergency. When I arrived, my pulse was over 140 and my BP was off the charts. I was triaged, processed, and sent to a waiting room, but was quickly retrieved, and put on a bed. From the time I arrived to the time I was receiving treatment was less than 30 minutes.
There was a flurry of activity – people drawing blood, installing IV’s, attaching monitors, etc. At one point, I had 2 IV’s in my right arm and one in my left, with seven different fluids being pumped into me. With all the cables from the monitor, and the EKG machine, I felt like a pincushion trapped by a giant squid. Not exactly top of my form, I kept saying weakly “I just need to sleep”. The reply: “Well, Mr. B., we think you’re about to have a heart attack, so let us worry about that first.”. It took an hour or two, but they were able to get my pulse rate down to a “manageable” 120, my BP to 140/100, and after two massive doses of insulin, my blood sugar down to less than 20.
Somewhat stabilized, they kept me in Emergency overnight, popping by every couple of hours to take more blood, change the IV’s, record my vitals, etc. Finally, on Thursday afternoon, they moved me to a regular bed. I went for a chest X-ray and an ultrasound to check for infection and other organ damage, all of which proved clear.
At this point, my major problem was my esophagus; it had been severely eroded by all the vomiting. On Friday morning, I went in for an endoscopy, which found a large clot present. The doctor ordered massive doses of a stomach acid inhibitor, and put me on “clear fluids” (i.e. “juice and jello”). After two days, he slowly reintroduced solid foods, did another endo on Tuesday morning, which showed the clot had disappeared, and discharged me Tuesday afternoon.
At the same time, I received instruction on insulin self-injection, received a kit with the pen, needles, etc., and was scheduled for a follow up class on my new regimen. By the time I left, my doctor had agreed to follow up with my GP (luckily, they know each other, so it made this simpler), and I had a plan going forward.
Of course, this is just one anecdote, but if anyone asked was I satisfied with the quality and level of care I received, they’d get a whole-hearted “Yes!” in return. Was everything perfect? Of course not (one patient shower was dirty with flies, but the other was fine, for example), but my complaints were minor compared to the overall outcome. When I arrived, I was clearly on the verge of a cardiac event. The fact that nothing happened was due to the rapid and professional response.
And, needless to say, at no point was I worried about the cost. I shudder to think what this might have cost me in the US; I don’t think $100,000 for the six days would be out of line. I’m sure anxiety about paying the bill would have significantly impeded my recovery.
I’m not suggesting the Canadian system is perfect by any means, but I will say that it provides a decent level of care for situations like this. Knee replacements and MRI’s may be another matter, but let’s not throw out the baby with the bath water.
And our graph bar will only be getting smaller when they slap all the taxes on the medical stuff. Right? Our government is almost as smart as yours.
Regardless, I think comparing any country the size of luxembourg to the USA is like comparing a hummingbird to an eagle. Little difference in size,shape,economy,ecology,race,immigration, etc etc.
I don’t think that you can compare the USA (with the diversity of terrain and races) to any single one of the countries there (and most of the european ones), including mexico and canada. Sure, mexico has a lower gdp comparison, but they also only spend 500bucks per person and are all migrating north for some reason.
And BTW, if there is a medical emergency here, and one can’t pay, there are programs available to relieve some of the debt and make payments easier.
Do Americans get better doctors because of the higher pay?
Will Jim, let me answer that question for you with a story about a good friend of mine who happens to be a doctor. He’s a specialized orthopedic surgeon, and he has just been let go by the hospital he was working for. Why? Because the operating room costs associated with his specialty work were too high! That’s right, because the type procedures he performed required more tools and an extra nurse compared to most of the other procedures being performed in the operating room, the administration of the hospital decided they shouldn’t be offering those services! He has contacted every hospital in southern Ontario, and not a single one is interested in employing him. But he’s got about 40 job offers in the US. He has already visited a dozen locations, and he can’t believe the differences in the two systems. Having seen what he’s seen the last couple of months, he said there’s no way he’ll work for the Canadian system again. So my question to him was “So what happens when a Canadian needs the type of surgery you provide, but can’t get it?” The answer? They live with pain or they go to the US.
Most of you here are missing the point. These graphs say nothing about the virtue of Canada’s health care system. What they point out is that the US spends a ridiculous amount on a system which does not provide a better outcome for the population as a whole. Blame it on lawyers or tort systems all you like; such argument has no bearing on the fact that friction in the US system is enormous and in severe need of reform.
cgh – there is a lot in the US right now that needs reform – the problem is – are the proposed changes the right reforms?
Jim Miller – interestingly, some specialties have differing rates of pay in US vs Canada. We have successfully recruited docs from Harvard to our institution – they were getting paid less than $100K per year(!), they are making way more than that here.
I believe that the US has a bimodal pay system for docs – you can make a lot of money, and you can also make not so much money. Here in Canada you make OK money, and it’s pretty consistent between provinces.
Erik, that is indeed precisely the question. Problem is twofold. With respect to reform, there are at least three(?) pieces of draft legislation out there, all of them conflicting to some degree. There is no administration legislation, because, like cap and trade, POTUS has left it to Congress to draft, and naturally they’ve made a dog’s breakfast out of it. POTUS could have avoided some of this mess by putting out a single coherent proposal. But instead he left it to Congress. Why? So he doesn’t have to own it when it fails?
On the other side of the street, things are equally irrational, with all too much of the opposition being against any reform of any kind on all sorts of, sometimes idiotic, grounds of defense of supposed individual rights. They pull out some specific idiocy of some proposal, hold it up as a horror never to be contemplated and use it as an excuse to reject any reform. Fact is, and it appears you agree, the US spends a disgusting amount of money on a system giving very poor results in terms of public health. The anti-reformers are simply denying reality in their attempts to stave off changes of any kind.
In the process, Canada in general and its health care system in particular are taking a series of highly unjustified knocks. I say unjustified, because even if the Canadian health care system was perfect it is a system designed for a country of 33 million, not 300 million, and in which the principal providers are the provinces, not the federal government. Any attempt to introduce Canada’s system holus bolus into the US will fail by definition, irrespective of whether or not ours works well.
In my view, there is no coherent discussion anywhere readily observable in the US today regarding health care and its rational reform. All we have is “much sound and fury signifying nothing”.
Captain,
You should do a chart mashup with:
http://reason.com/assets/mc/mmoynihan/2009_10/2570.photo.jpg
and
http://www.cato.org/pubs/tbb/tbb_1008-50.pdf
and your data above. I think there might be some sort of correlation somewhere.
Many comments on why we are more expensive.
But let us not forget. You are buying the best in the world. You would think this would cost more.
Hey there, KevinB, get better, eh !!
cgh, I agree totally with everything in your post, and really have nothing to add!
Don’t forget that a significant portion of the healthcare costs in the US are PRIVATE expenditures which individuals have chosen to make. US citizens can choose to see their dermatologist every week if they want to pay for it. They can pay for a second and a third opinion. They can choose to use the brand name prescription instead of the generic. They can pay for blood tests and imaging just because their family has a history of cancer and they want to have screening done early. Choice.
Here in Canada I can’t even make an appointment with a specialist without a referral from my family doctor. Someone said today that Canadian healthcare is like an HMO and that’s not a good thing.
How about the following statistics to put the spending in context.
Hospitals per Capita
– Level of technology at said hospitals
Number of Research Hospitals
Number of Specialists by Medical Discipline
Number of Elective Surgeries per Capita
Number of New Drugs Approved per year
Number of Medical Device Implantation per Capita / per Age Group
Number of GPs per Capita
Miles patients transferred per year
Size of Insurer Market (including Dental and Eye Care)
Countries with Doctor Wage Caps / fixed pricing
Number of reconstructive surgeries per year
Numbe of foreign patients treated per year
Just some numbers that can put the spending into context. Everyone uses the per Capita numbers and then stop looking, per capita is such a stupid way to rate anything because there are so many societal factors to consider.
OOPS this is percentage of GDP which is a better way to rank, my apologizes for thinking this was a per capita ranking.
Never mind the last two posts I think I have lost my mind as I ask for per Capita and then slag the per capita numbers.
I am under the weather and apparently the victim of over self medication.
Carry on…
As our population ages, the important question will be efficiency, and benchmarks to insure efficiency. Without benchmarks, per capita spending could in fact reflect inefficiency not better health care.
Please ,allow all counties who has free medical health plan can have like share of one id for
Driving license during travel to go in travel and use each other doctor in share
But if country not have any medical health plan should don’t use this data
Let all courtiers share their drug research I heard Germany did good job
Let made all drug in pharmacy get free for Canadian
What’s point you go to doctor and not pay the bill of drugs in Canada?