So long as queue jumping is afforded the hypocrites who legislate health care, why deny the ones who deliver it?
When his five-year-old daughter’s bone scan revealed a tumour that might be cancerous, the man who is now president of the Canadian Medical Association decided to jump the queue.
His wife, also a doctor, had taken their daughter into the emergency room of a Vancouver hospital after the little girl experienced a sudden pain in her leg, Dr. Brian Day recalled. The initial bone scan indicated a tumour, but couldn’t reveal whether or not it was cancerous.
“The hospital said: ‘We’ll do a CT scan, bring her back next week,’ ” Dr. Day said. “To me, it’s completely unacceptable, sending a mother home for six days not knowing whether her daughter has a malignant or a benign bone tumour. I made the phone call … I made them do it that day.”
Via Andrew Keyes;
I recall seeing a CBC interview with Jack Layton a couple of years ago, and he was asked “If you discovered your wife had a life-threatening condition and you had to chose between waiting for treatment in Canada and risking her death, or traveling to the US for immediate treatment, what would you do?” Layton answered that he would wait in the queue in Canada.
Some would say his answer reflected his conviction to his principles, others would say it reflected his complete lack of any ability to act rationally. I wonder what his wife thought.
We know what Jean Chretien and Belinda Stronach would do.
“Some would say his answer reflected his conviction to his principles, others would say it reflected his complete lack of any ability to act rationally.”
And some would say he was lieing like a rug.
Oops make that “lying”.
Of course Layton would wait in queue. He knows that the queue for him (an elite) and his family is shorter than ours (the average taxpayer).
Do you really think that bin Layton is practising taqiyya on us?
Thank God for the USA.
Taliban Jack has used the private health care system.
He went to the Shouldice clinic for some minor surgery. http://www.shouldice.com/
But that’s OK with the socialist hordes right? Their elitist overlords (Layton, Gore, etc…) are permitted to do as they please
It is clear and has been for a long time that our health care system does not work and cannot work no matter how much money it poured into it. The dumbest argument from those who insist on keeping it is claiming that the only alternative is the American system. This is dishonest and stupid. What other countries have a system like us? Cuba and N. Korea. Now that is something to brag about for sure.
There are many other workable models across the world, all of them far superior to our socialist system. One improvement would be to remove government from the provision of health care and restrict its role to providing health care insurance coverage. Secondly we should remember that health care is not federal jurisdiction and it should be returned to the provinces.
As I posted in a “reader tips” comments section the other day here at SDA, if anyone out there believes that Canada’s health care system isn’t two-tier already (one for the connected, one for the disconnected), they are patently delusional.
The fact that a reformer like Mr. Day is the head of the CMA speaks volumes. It shows that a majority of those closest to the problem – the doctors – have come to the realization that significant reform is necessary. Kudos to Mr. Day for calling a spade a spade. He’s adding queue jumping to the long list of the natural adverse consequence of our present system.
Friends of mine buried another of Tommy’s public health care mistakes just yesterday.
Typical stressed-out system reponse…elderly woman…put off of curative surgical procedures because her age exceeded the unwritten age qualifications for expending expensive treatments…sent home with placebos to die quietly out of sight…health care system official who is a friend discovers the inhuman treatment of this woman and rattles the right chains to get proper procedures done immediately…rushed surgery was botched, had to be done again…after second corrective surgery patient responding well when infections contracted in hospital killed her….report suspects dirty surgical tools.
surviving relatives told there is little they can do but complain….medical liability is very low in the present system.
Bury another of Tommy’s systemically euthenized seniors.
Back in the 80’s, Ford tackled some major qualty issues head-on by forcing all managers to drive Ford products and deal with quality issues in the same fashion that Joe Public did. It was a rousing success. If we want to be serious about health care issues, we need to legally bind all federal and provincial legislators to access halth care in he same manner as we are told we should. It should have been a source of national shame when Quebec Premier Robert Bourassa went to the states for cancer treatment and he should have been roundly criticized regardless of the situation.
Clearly Layton’s wife thought he was lying, seeing as how he’s still married to her. That’s what I love about the NDPee-ers, they can say the most appalling lies with a completely straight face.
Any doctor who says they wouldn’t make that phone call for the CT scan on their daughter is likewise lying. I’m surprised the guy’s wife didn’t rip a chunk out of the idiot doing the scheduling on the spot. Maybe she did, but hubby swings a bigger bat.
Two tier medicine please. Stat. No, having the second tier be Buffalo NY is not good enough.
Rudi Guiliani has the best quote on this:
“If we ever got to Hillarycare in this country, Canadians will have nowhere to go for health care,”
Did Mr. Layton wait in line for his treatment at the Shouldice clinic?
Seems Tommy found a way to get his way about his fondness for euthanasia after all.
Socialism doesn’t always take the most direct route to impose its stupidity on us.
Do you tink it’s izzy to get da goot healt gare?
In addition to the taxes I pay to fund the provincial healthcare system, I also pay into a group healthcare plan. Not for myself. For federal MPs.
As long as my taxes go to pay for MPs to enjoy a level of health care coverage which I myself do not get, there will be two-tier health care.
How can they suggest otherwise?
Fankly the Day story is no big surprise to those of us who have watched the system for a while.
I waited six month to get a diagnosis for my knee injury and then spent 18 months in line to get the recommended ACL surgery. My former fiancee (a doctor) complained about her knee pain to a collegue at work one day, he managed to get her a spot for an MRI for the next day, diagnosed her as having a torn ACL and arranged for her to have surgery 1 week later. Ironically, he offered her a surgery three days earlier, but she couldn’t take the spot as she had to arrange to get off work.
So in the end I (a non-connected peon) spent almost two years to get diagnosis and treatment. She (a medical practitioner) got diagnosed and treated in 8 days… nope no two tier out here!
Unfortunately, this is the drawback to the Canadian medical system and one of the main objections to socialized medicine. I am from the US, a republican that supports socialized medicine and I’m really lonely here! Perhaps legislation to require more scanning locations could be an answer. Of course, high end cost procedures will limit the availability of routine medical care if they are not limited but if mandated, not impossible. This is the quandary. What are your thoughts?
This makes me mindful of Ronald Reagan’s view on
government run national healthcare.
If you think healthcare is expensive now, just wait until it’s free.
The MSM likes to dwell on Wait Lists and Times but there is also a more sinister issue that I have personally witnessed and heard accounts of: that of care refusal. Now of course, care is not just outright refused, that would cause a stir, but extended waits and mis-diagnosis is the same thing.
My family Dr. has expressed pressure not to prescribe certain types of care. And a relative was refused aggressive (expensive) cardiac care; we suspected because of age. Another account is of a man being sent home from emergency multiple times until he had a heart attack and died at home.
A warning to all: if you think someone is having a cardiac or stroke, call an ambulance, don’t drive them. In an ambulance they arrive in Emergency with a Paramedic’s report on condition; if you drive them yourself they rely on getting the attention of an overworked Triage Nurse in an overcrowded Emergency waiting room.
Don’t forget: in a US hospital a potential patient is possible income; in a Canadian hospital you are an expense.
If you’re connected you get in quick. If you’re not, you get to wait in line. That’s not even bad, that’s like gravity. One of those blindingly obvious, “water is wet” things that are the reason Socialism is non-functional. Its like a clock made of mud, in principle, it CANNOT work.
Which puts Jack Layton and his fellow NDPee Socialists in a very special light. Either they are too stupid to understand “water is wet” level realities, or they are deliberately selling something they know for sure can’t possibly work.
There’s a name for that. Demagoguery.
Nova Scotia to have P3 health care?
http://thechronicleherald.ca/Front/996352.html
This simply horendous to justify wait times in our “publically funded”…I mean public exploition health system. Where is the leadership in Canada that will say, enough of this sacred cow! Sacred cows make good barbeques.”
The quandry with medicine is that life is all anyone really has. Thus, one is willing to spend everything (the farm, so to speak) to avoid (postpone) death.
If you are buying a car you want the best deal and will spend the time looking for it. If you are buying an operation you want the best and generally don’t have time to chat about cost. Most folks will thus make the decision that the more the cost the better the treatment (same thing happens with lawyers). How best to provide and pay for health care is thus very difficult, but using OPM (other people’s money) can’t help.
Apparently 80% of total health costs come in the last two weeks of life. To the likes of Jack Layton the answer to the problem is obvious. Make everyone die two weeks early.
Bill Greenwood at December 6, 2007 3:03 PM:
You may not have the final answer to what’s ailing the health care system in Canada but it’s a damn good beginning. Not just federal and provincial legislators though; all senior health care bureaucrats and executives also.
A laser is directed on the fundamental flaw in socialism. While a lofty ideal, it is orthagonal to the innate motive of self-preservation. Those that would perpetrate socialism are either naive, or dishonest about their intentions. In either case, they deserve not to be elected.
I know I’ll catch s**t for even suggesting this,but….
If you want to get more productivity out of our hospitals you must first KILL the selfish,me-first attitudes of the unions!
I cannot get my wife a CT bone scan, but thank heavens my cat won’t have to wait.
So in the end I (a non-connected peon) spent almost two years to get diagnosis and treatment. She (a medical practitioner) got diagnosed and treated in 8 days… nope no two tier out here!
Posted by: meinbc
On Oct 29th I broke my leg. Nov 4th I was in surgery. Yesterday, just over a month, I’m in physical therapy and will be able to ditch the crutches in two weeks.
From the comments I’ve read here and elsewhere I’d say Canada’s healthcare system s criminal in its inefficiency and negligence. No one should wait 18 months let alone 1 month for routine surgery.
I live in B.C. were we have “Larry, Moe and Curly” as political leaders.. Our medicare out here is terrible and it’s worse if your a senior. A few months ago my wife was diagnosted with osteocronosis. This is a painful deterioration in the bone. The bone literally can die. Because we couldnt get help
through the system I was forced to go outside a pay the mri and surgeons bills on my own.
Anyone who has faced this knows that to say one would wait in line is a bloody liar. Mr Layton is known for his lack of integrity and so are the leaders of both parties out here. It is disgusting to hear these clowns claiming to support real medicare when they have no concern for the folks who are ill.
Having spent a pile of money to support my wife’s recovery I have an old word to describe these guys,…ASSHOLES.
Vis a vis Layton’s surgery at the Shouldice Clinic, I’d say he obviously loves himself more than his wife. It’s OK for her to wait in line (yeah, right) but not for him.
I always knew he was a me-first, push to the front of the line but pretend I didn’t type of guy.
I figure he and Olivia have some kind of arrangement, otherwise who’s to explain this strange couple?
Speaking of Tommy Douglas, his grandson Kiefer Sutherland (via Tommy’s daughter, Shirley Douglas, and her ex-husband, Donald Sutherland) will begin serving a 48-day jail sentence: 30 days for driving with a blood-alcohol level above the legal limit of .08 percent, and 18 days for violating his probation for a 2004 drunken driving case, according to court records.
Somehow, 48 days doesn’t seem like enough. Kiefer could have killed someone.
OttRob: He went to the Shouldice clinic for some minor surgery
Paul: Did Mr. Layton wait in line for his treatment at the Shouldice clinic?
‘been around the block: Vis a vis Layton’s surgery at the Shouldice Clinic…
Those who hope to criticize Layton for seeking “private” healthcare would do well to learn a bit more about the system. First, Shouldice is indeed a private facility, but it is a not-for-profit operation. Second, all hernia procedures performed there are paid for by the Government of Ontario, not private insurance or out-of-pocket. Third, for historical reasons, the majority of hernia repairs in Toronto are performed at Shouldice. Fourth, Layton did not jump the hospital queue (nor did Joe Clark). All this adds up to the conclusion that Layton didn’t end up at Shouldice because of his “connections.” If you live in Toronto, and you need hernia surgery, there’s a pretty good chance that you’ll be sent there too.
Of course, he’s still a boob, but there are better things to criticize him on than this.
mark peters: if anyone out there believes that Canada’s health care system isn’t two-tier already (one for the connected, one for the disconnected), they are patently delusional.
meinbc: So in the end I (a non-connected peon)…
And what makes you think that introducing a parallel private healthcare track will improve the quality of your care? If you’re not wealthy or powerful enough now to be “connected,” odds are that under a parallel system, you still wouldn’t be able to afford the insurance premiums required to access the higher tier of care.
Also, since when did resenting the wealthy become a conservative thing to do? Society’s elite–which runs the gamut of the political ideological spectrum–are connected in a whole bunch of ways, not just in health care. The slacker kids of Ivy League alum get automatic entry into their old alma maters. Upon graduation, a job awaits at Daddy’s law firm. CEOs sit on each others’ board of governors. Their country club membership fee is more than your annual salary. The list goes on. Criticizing them for jumping waiting queues is like criticizing the rich for being rich. Which is fine, but you should know that you sound like a bunch of Marxists.
I don’t know who BS can show her face in parliament. Over the past few years she has slammed the Harper conservatives — particularly during the last election campaign — claiming they favour private US-style healthcare. And then she flies off to the US for … um …private .. health care.
She’s gotten a bye from the MSM on this issue. After all, she’s a breast cancer survivor, a woman, a feminist of sorts (political expediency), and of course, a liberal — all the things beloved and cherished by the MSM media.
Imagine if Rona Ambrose, Diane Ablonczy, Helena Guergis, or any of the other female members of the CPC had done the same? Would they be given the kid-glove treatment as well? Hardly.
The MSM has designate BS as untouchable and have circled their wagons around her accordingly on this issue. And yes, the Liberal Party, and their cohorts in the MSN, will still have the gall to play the “hidden agenda” scary card in the next election as it relates to the issue of private health care and how inevitably it seems to become part of the political discourse at the time, and their attempts to suggest the CPC favours it. And they will do so without hesitation and certainly without shame.
But that will be understandable. After all, you have to have shame to feel shame. 😉
Graham, valid point but the fact that private clinic that bills the system can be embraced in some places but reviled to the point of stopping transfer payments to a province (Albertans remember this all too well)is the real travesty. And don’t give me the “grandfathered” song & dance either, it is a matter of power control.
Ever wonder how Shouldice can do hernias for less than the typical hospital can and still make money while receiving the same fee per hernia from the keepers of the cash?
Yea don’t pick on Taliban Jack too much.
He finally moved out of his subsidized housing.
For any study of two tier government/political/medical systems, required reading is:
NOMENKLATURA – The Soviet Ruling Class by Michael Voslensky.
“The Kremlin hospital equipment and pharmacopoeia are imported from the West (the nomenklatura never relies on local medical skill and pharmacology when its health is at stake)…….”
Hey that sounds like Canada’s politicians.
I can just see Jack Layton jumping into the life boat ahead of his wife when the Titanic was sinking.
Graham. Fifth, has Jack Layton ever said he was in favour of private clinics provided they were referred and funded by the private system? That’s his credibility problem here. He is on the record as stating that medical care shall be provided, and paid for, by public health institutions only, with no private clinics allowed. He is against private clinics, even if the payor to them is the public.
If you have a different recollection of his public stand on this issue, please present it. Specifically, has he ever stated that private clinics are OK, as long as they are funded by the public health care system.
With regard to private clinics and queues – there is a certain reality here – if I am waiting for a procedure, am on a wait list, and the person ahead of me goes elsewhere (privately funded clinic, USA), I move up the line and get my procedure sooner than otherwise; IOW I get a benefit. That may not be justification for allowing private healthcare, but it is still a fact.
As for the argument that the best doctors will go to the private system, thus starving the private, that is an unproven, emotional argument that has been repudiated by the SCoC Chauolli decision. The Court stated that it could find no evidence that this has happened elsewhere with parallel private systems, and the state has no right to deny healthcare (wait lists) on that basis.
For some crazy reason, this ruling of our highest court has been narrowly interpreted to only apply to Quebec. That is ridiculous.
Why are there so many private surgical clinics in BC, Ontario and Quebec. I thought they have had socialist governments from time to time.
Layton’s & the NDP’s problem with private clinics is the concern that their key constituents, the unions, interests would not be served. Not individual worker’s interests, union interests, NDP support. End of story, full stop.
The Liberals major concern about any privitization is that it might remove what has likely been their most effective campaign strategy against the Conservatives, health care. Not concerns about the medical treatment or health of individual Canadians, but Liberal electoral success.
Orlin……………..I would be leery as an American to socialized health care at this stage in Americas history. It may have had a shot in the earlier development of the US but today it’s an entirely different country. I’m obviously no expert on the subject, but it seems to me you would open the flood gates for Federally funded medicine to millions (14 –28 million) illegal aliens along with their ageing tag alongs compounding each year. The pay as you go health insurance in the US is obviously geared for higher income citizens but is also a deterrent for the freeloading world masses to some degree.
How many of you’re best doctors are willing to take a 50%+ cut in pay, but instead decide to move to more profitable or sunnier climates?
How much longer are Americans willing to wait on procedures that they full well have the money to pay for immediate quality service elsewhere?
I suppose the short answer is like all that is American verse Canadian living: Are you a hard working individual that doesn’t mind paying for the lazy at a higher cost to your family and have the right to make that choice or would you rather have your government make that decision for you.
It seems to me that the American economy is already strained to a near breaking point (credit crunch aside) with consideration given to the ageing baby boomers medical and pension concerns. When taking in all the looming socialized medicine failures argued around the world including Canada it might be prudent to keep a good job with a health plan and continue buying insurance in the US.
Texas Canuck: valid point but the fact that private clinic that bills the system can be embraced in some places but reviled to the point of stopping transfer payments to a province is the real travesty
Not sure what Alberta case(s) you’re referring to. Can you specify? Were they for-profit or not-for-profit? What were they billing for exactly — the procedure itself (legal) or “facility fees” (not legal)?
Ever wonder how Shouldice can do hernias for less than the typical hospital can and still make money while receiving the same fee per hernia from the keepers of the cash?
Sure. They’ve picked a single surgical procedure and formed a local monopoly over it. Since the procedure is relatively easy and cheap (done in under an hour, and there’s perpetually high demand, they can make money off of doing it.
This is in fact one of the worries with creating a parallel healthcare track–that private (for profit) companies will “skim the cream” of the system, focusing only on procedures/patients that are cheap to perform/treat (i.e., high profit margins), leaving the expensive-to-treat chronically ill and complex cases (i.e., low-to-negative profit margins) to the public system. Which might sound good because in theory it reduces demand on the public system, except that since the private track is far more profitable, it tends to suck personnel away from the public track. End result: those who don’t have complicated problems and can afford private healthcare get fast and high quality access. Those who cannot afford private insurance and/or have (or have dependents who have) complex illnesses that the private clinics refuse to treat continue to face long wait times and low practitioner morale. This is a trend that’s growing in the UK, for example.
Shamrock: Specifically, has he ever stated that private clinics are OK, as long as they are funded by the public health care system.
In debates over public/private healthcare, people often conflate funding and service delivery. The vast majority of healthcare in Canada is already delivered by private practitioners. For example, the local tiny one-doctor clinic where your family doctor works is in fact a private clinic that is funded by the public healthcare system (i.e. the GP bills the province). Shouldice is really no different, and can be seen as just a giant neighbourhood doctors’ clinic that happens to only do hernia surgeries rather than diagnose little kids’ fevers and hand out scripts for antibiotics.
So no, to my knowledge, Layton has never explicitly stated that “private clinics are OK, as long as they are funded by the public health care system,” but since that statement accurately describes most of the existing healthcare system (i.e., private practitioners, public funds), explicitly stating it would in fact be nothing more than an endorsement of the current system.
When he says that he does not support private clinics, I believe that he is referring (as are most people) to privately funded clinics.
The Court stated that it could find no evidence that this has happened elsewhere with parallel private systems
I’m sure Supreme Court law clerks are very good at research, but I’m more inclined to weigh more heavily the arguments marshaled by researchers who specialize in the health care system. On that note, see this (pdf file) for an alternative opinion: 3w.chass.utoronto.ca/cepa/Private.pdf (especially pp 18-22 and conclusions).
They say Fidel Castro has like 30 homes. I’m betting he doesn’t go to the same hospitals that the rest of the Cuban slobs go to. So why do we expect our communist elites to slither around with the rest of us dogs?
Graham, “…I believe that he is referring …” sounds like ESP or mind reading to me.
Although it was over 5 years back, there was a group of doctors in Calgary who wanted to open a private hospital to do hip joints I believe. Without doing some more research (any Albertans help) I can’t recall the details but Ottawa was quick to threaten transfer cuts. I think it was to do Worker’s Comp patients (another tier) they trying for.
Further info: My timeline is a bit off but here is but one article on the subject:
http://www.cmaj.ca/cgi/reprint/159/5/551.pdf
easily googled, should have done that first. me bad, but the whole thing stunk. gov’t handling that is.
[quote]Unfortunately, this is the drawback to the Canadian medical system and one of the main objections to socialized medicine. I am from the US, a republican that supports socialized medicine and I’m really lonely here! Perhaps legislation to require more scanning locations could be an answer. Of course, high end cost procedures will limit the availability of routine medical care if they are not limited but if mandated, not impossible. This is the quandary. What are your thoughts? [/quote]
ORLIN,
As an American living in Canada I try not to criticize the Canadian Social Experiment.
It just happens that my wife requires a Thyroid Biopsy, and yesterday she asked for and was referred to Arizona (paid by US Health care). The sad part is that all the Canadians on the wait list do not have the same options that she has available. She had been in the Thyroid line since August, Nuclear Scan on Nov 15th, unable to get an appointment for biopsy.
The REAL health care system is NOT funded. When they (USSR Bureaucrats) arrived they changed heath care to cover ALL the obscure social issues. The People’s elected Government makes policy decisions but a parallel bureaucratic (think tank) decides how tax money is spent. The BBC had a program years ago called “Mr Prime Minister” based on the bureaucratic form of government. What I am saying is there exists 2 (two) funded (double dipping) Government Systems, with the Elite Socialists bureaucrats running “some” departments using non-traceable funding practices.
One Example:
In Sask the Regional Dept of Health provides funds to a NON-Profit Inc called “Friendship Centers”(First Nations) and they (friendship) “MAY” use the money to lobby other government agencies like, Law, Housing, daycare, or Trips to UN events, or kick backs..I can understand if the Department of Housing funds an out-reach program for the First Nations, but the source of the funding is Health Care, hidden from the taxpayer. It is the ideal vehicle to avoid audit or due dilegence
I could be wrong, but I was born in Sask, and there was nothing wrong with the Douglas Medical system until Ottawa & NDP got involved.
In a US health care system we just need to keep the slease out, and make someone count the money.
Why is this news? I have posted about this repeatedly here, and sent numerous letters to the editor, all of which are ignored.
The benefits of this system for the connected are obvious; they get all the benefits of preferential access without having to pay any extra costs. That’s why the “elites” will fight tooth and nail to preserve the current system; it affords them the aristocracy of pull, as opposed to having to earn the meritocracy of money. That they will do this while claiming they are fighting “two-tier health care” is just further proof of what disgusting hypocrites they are; pretending to stand up for “ordinary Canadians” while condemning them to pain, misery, and even death.