“When will it be time to stop showing respect for Islam?”
91 Replies to “Cultural Sensitivity Be Damned”
“I’m a conservative and live in Ontario.”
No you’re not. You’re a politically correct pinko who is way too young to pay income taxes in any significant amount. You probably think we need McGuinty’s 2.5 BILLION dollar tax to fight the Christians and the KKK, you jacktard.
“Now I see no difference between them.”
That’s because you are bad at mathematics and you are a moral degenerate unable to distinguish between two very, very diferent entities.
Let’s go back to Lori:
“Most people regard Buddhism as a peaceful and benevolent religion.”
That’s because they are ignorant stools who haven’t studied Buddhism as much as I have. Did you know that in Asia sick people are considered “evil” because it is assumed they did something in a previous life (karma) to deserve their leprosy? And that Zen Bushido was responsible for the Rape of Nanking? Have you ever read the stories of how the Burmese sacked Ayutthaya? I have.
Ontario comes down to:
another 20 million dollar librano$$ “adscam” kick back slush fund, or paying for all the mosques under construction in Toronto for eternity. Is more kick back liberal “business as usual”, worse than paying for burkas and mosques for eternity? I don’t think I can vote for that socialist slob Tory.
He is a “connected” blue blood Toronto “progressive”.
Saw him at the Lebanon war “peace” rally last summer stumping for Hez (spit) support,…dhimmi idiot!
How many Mosques are under constuction in Toronto right now, and where did all the burkas come from??
One thing’s for sure, Ontarians will pay!
Oh, and Phantom, my apologies. You are right about my gratuitous comment – I wasn’t trying to offend, but sometimes the easy cliche just pops out. There was no need for it, and it actually weakened the comment.
I’m a conservative and live in Ontario.”
No you’re not. You’re a politically correct pinko who is way too young to pay income taxes in any significant amount. You probably think we need McGuinty’s 2.5 BILLION dollar tax to fight the Christians and the KKK, you jacktard.
“Now I see no difference between them.”
That’s because you are bad at mathematics and you are a moral degenerate unable to distinguish between two very, very diferent entities.
What an amazingly telling statement about the psychological condition and age of the author.
“What an amazingly telling statement about the psychological condition and age of the author.”
If this offends your precious sensibilities then suck it up, buttercup. Canada needs fewer perpetually offended and more plainspoken people.
“I don’t think I can vote for that socialist slob Tory.”
That’s because you are a pinko too.
Incidentally, we are 6 weeks from an Ontario election and I count more Blogging Tories opposed to John Tory and the PC party than those who support him. I just wanted to point that out as a matter of record the Blogging “Tories” generally support Dalton McGuinty and the Liberal Party of Ontario.
What an amazingly telling statement about the psychological condition and age of the author.
Posted by: rattfuc at August 27, 2007 11:54 AM
Yes, Andrew is quite a prize. What a great Christian! Must make the rest of the cult on SDA’s proud!!
Gary said “Whaaaaaaaa! I want my bottle!”
Poor baby.
Andrew,
Only a halfwit would claim to be a John Tory supporter AND a conservative.
Tory’s policies are the same, watered down pap as McShifty’s. He isn’t a conservative. He’s a red tory which is the alternate term for Liberal. He’s promised to spend as much or more than McShifty. That isn’t conservative. He’s promised to fund religious schools. Since Catholic schools are already public, what do you think he meant? Muslim. He’s doing the Liberals identity politics crap.
And as for the attack, reread what you wrote and if you have any shame, you’d be embarrassed about how stupid you made yourself look. Or maybe you aren’t bright enough to know better. Look up the meaning of Pinko. Fool.
Gary said “Whaaaaaaaa! I want my bottle!”
Poor baby.
Posted by: Andrew
Truly clever, wow…I’m speechless! I bow to your superior intellect.
Neither pinko nor dimmi Andrew, you argue like both though.
Andrew, you won’t find a more fiscal or social conservative than I. What I find telling (and no, I’m not offended) is your use of the phrases “Jacktard, pinko and moral degenerate”, to name a few. Your attacks on others with differing views is puerile. If you cannot debate
others without employing the use of demeaning words, you have no business debating them at all.
“Tory’s policies are the same, watered down pap as McShifty’s.”
Wrong, wrong, wrong. Most of us productive Ontarians WHO PAY TAXES UNLIKE STUDENTS passed high school math and understand that FOUR HUNDRED MILLION DOES NOT EQUAL (>, !=, ETC.) TWO POINT FIVE BILLION YOU MORON.
400,000,000 != 2,500,000,000
“He’s a red tory which is the alternate term for Liberal”
So are you so I don’t see the problem.
Andrew,
Clearly you’re just trolling as I find it hard to believe you’re employed.
I agree this was an obvious ploy to buy Muslim votes, and perhaps some RC and Jewish votes, but does he really think that Muslim immigrants are EVER going to vote Conservative in significant numbers?
They’ll just take the free religious schooling, laugh at the stupidity of Canadians, and continue to support whichever party their leaders tell them to support. I.E. the party which is least likely to say “no” as they request more and more special treatment.
In the end, they will all end up voting NDP and liberal, as has happened in Europe, where Islamic block voting forms the core of left-wing city governments, and not too far in the future, national governments.
Stupid, stupid, stupid.
As an ex-Ontarioan, it’s refreshing to see what I left behind chase it’s collective tail. But hey, a healthy debate no less. Nice to see the snooze button is finally kaput and you do seem to be waking up to the level of retardation of the political idiots stealing your money. Too bad you had to do it on a western blogsite, why not start one of your own?
I’ll give you an authentic American viewpoint:
Your religion, or lack thereof, is none of my business. Likewise, mine is none of yours. You are free to believe any damn fool thing you like, but are NOT free to demand I believe it as well.
You can be a “new” Druid and celebrate the wrong solstice, but I’m going to consider you an idiot, guaranteed. And not quietly, either.
Or you can be a Wahhabi fundamentalist Muslim, and beat you wives and sisters to death over your illusory “honor”, but I’m not required (or likely) to respect your beliefs, and I’ll probably try and get you arrested and punished for assault and battery if not outright murder.
‘Cause I’m a “giver”…
ON’ians have the advantage of 20/20 hindsight when it comes to supporting a “faith-based” school system. It seems this may well be the election question and it is huge.
Do go beyond the opinions of the so called “educational elites/decision makers” as to how successful this pathway actually is likely to be. AB has spent millions/billions on educational change which often amounted to change for the sake of change rather than actually benefiting students.
AB embarked on the Charter School path in the mid 1980’s without the benefit of hindsight. After 25 years, the process is virtually non-reversible – for better or for worse. Of course many of the educational elites will praise the system – they invented it and allowed it to grow. New schools are likely to be of the P3 variety – public/private/partnership and it’s not a huge leap to figure where this is likely to go. The charter school program has basically become a language/culture/faith based system with the exception of special needs students. The number of students being home schooled has jumped considerably in the past few years. The quality of life/education in the public schools has arguably generally gone down and is likely to go down further.
The one major difference is that the private/charter/whatever schools do not, by law, have to accept students. The public system does not have this luxury – it must accept, by law, all students who arrive on their doorstep. Of course the climate within schools other than public is going to be considered by many people to be “better” than the public school systems. How can it not be.
Allowing the proliferation of faith-based schools raises questions of perpetuation and in fact the intensifying of diversity/elitism/non-tolerance as time goes by. Is this really in the best interests of moving toward a tolerant, reasonably accommodating population?
I would urge ON’ians to get past the emotional and think long and hard about how your existing system can be adjusted/improved before moving on an election promise of implementing a faith-based pathway. Once this door is opened, you can kiss your public system, as you know it, farewell. Because other provinces have gone this route is no reason to think that ON is probably right/o.k. to do the same.
The estimate of $400M to get it going in ON is laughable. What will likely happen is that millions will come in from offshore and highly influential/financially placed locals and you will see instant schools go up in many, many different places.
There was an education-lobby female on CPAC the other day who feels it is just fine to have students educated in a language that is neither English nor French. Really. Once you open the door in ON, you will never close it nor will you be allowed to cherry pick what faiths will be allowed to set up their own school. They will all have this right and will go to the supreme court, if necessary, to get it done.
The socio-cultural aspects of Canada are considerably different now than they were in the mid ’80’s. If ON’ians feel they have a problem with political correctness now – and they should – the situation will likely be compounded many fold if full fledged faith-based education is opened up in ON.
“It seems this may well be the election question and it is huge.”
I’ll say this again slowly. Two point five billion dollars is a much bigger number than four hundred million. You reject mathematics by suggesting that the McGuinty health tax is a bigger issue than a theoretical program which costs much less.
The people who don’t have a problem with McGuinty’s $2.5 billion health tax? They don’t make very much money and don’t pay much tax if any. Freeloaders, in other words.
JSchuler: the man believes in secularism because that’s what he believes in.
It would be a deeply cynical act to sit back and think about which belief system would act as the best vector for your particular idea, then choose that. It would accepting the “religion as the opiate of the masses” theory for the purpose of exploiting it.
Andrew,
Clearly your reading comprehension skills were learned at an Ontario public school.
No one has suggested a preference for McShifty’s health tax. That someone thinks that funding religious schools is a bigger issue than the health tax is not the same thing as suggesting it is exclusively a mathematical equation. It is not.
Clearly you are gullible.
$400 million for Tory’s Maddrassa plan is not honest. It will cost much more.
Clearly you have logical deficiencies.
These two issues are not related except insofar as they are two cardinal screw-ups by two terrible leaders – neither of which deserves to govern.
Most of the people on this board want lower taxes, less spending, less government interference, less bureaucracy, less meddling by government, less programs and more freedom. Funding Tory’s Saudi Maddrasses is not on that agenda. Neither is McShifty’s tax.
Your stupidity embarrasses real conservatives.
Well put, Warwick.
“No one has suggested a preference for McShifty’s health tax. ”
Oh yes you have. You just said you can’t support John Tory. And since there is only 1 other man who could conceivably become premier (McGuinty) it logically follows that you are not opposed to re-electing McGuinty and his crew.
You’re trapped. You painted yourself in a bright pink corner and there is no way out.
You’re a Liberal. A dirty, dirty Liberal.
P.S. real conservatives *never* begin a sentence with “Clearly”, that’s a total tipoff you are a Paul Martin-wannabe Liberal.
Kate,
My appologies for feeding the troll.
Well Lori, you may not like Tory’s idea on school funding but we’re already funding one religion, that’s not a fair deal either. We’re way past the reason for funding it in the first place, we’ve evolved, different demographic. Now it’s a social disgrace and an economic disaster.
Tory needs a rethink too, one system for all, leave the religions where they belong, in the places of worship and homes.
Go vote for Extreme Liar, a Liar beyond all liars, he broke every promise he made prior to the last election.
Andrew, John Tory is a 905 socialist who never saw a dollar he didn’t think he should get 75 cents of. There’s going to be damn little difference between him and McSquinty. I’ll take that little difference, because every little bit helps.
But that John(Pink)Tory agenda is not what I want. I’d like to see a 20% cut in Ontario tax right up front and 10% every year thereafter until you can fit all of Queens Park’s employees inside Queens Park again.
I’d also like to see the GTA and Hamilton Region broken back up into their constituent municipalities and de-funded at the federal and provincial level.
Nothing shrinks a tumor like cutting off the blood supply.
Lori, your gracious apology is accepted. You’re not the only one that gets cranky and blurts the wrong thing by a long shot. ~:) I’m full time cranky, these days.
If this Christopher Hitchens clone cannot understand that some religions have better outcomes for their adherents than others, then he is not much better than an appeaser.
Christendom and its underlying values of love and tolerance has been the building block and a solid foundation for all Europe and North America.
Russia also has a strong religious tradition and its people still have a strong sense of introspection and moral compass which will undo the confusion of the marxist yoke.
I never have and never will believe the marxist fairy tales.
May the people of Saskatchewan rise up against it!
we sure beat the crap out of that. from islam to school funding to athiests, kkk, secular humanists, john tory, one post alluded to the fact that our thought, moral thought, that is ,stemmed from christanity. he or she, is right of course, you can’t divorce your thoughts from what has been learned and accumulated throughout history.the rest was mostly politics as usual.
Glad you posted this Kate. Nice find.
I reckon all school funding is religious school funding.
What is current public school funding being used for other than inculcation into the religion of leftist secular humanism?
Are competitive theories taught to say, evolution? Or, multiculturalism? Or, cultural and moral relativism? Or, for that matter, socialism?
As I said before, as much as I don’t like funding for Islam in any way, shape, or form – it might prove more secure that they abide by western education curriculum norms than what much of their current funding from Saudi Wahabiism demands.
On the other hand, if Muslim immigration was ended, I’m sure we wouldn’t be having this debate.
A very timely post Kate, thanks and I would not have seen my fellow countryman on the subject otherwise. Sounds funny to say fellow countryman since I have Canadian citizenship and lived in Canada 51 years. Born foggy old London Town.
Orlin- from the UP.
I take the liberty of a quick sum up. What the man says is extremely well stated and in someone’s face.
If we do not stick together we will hang apart. Should I say suffer under duress of clever manipulators. Persons who tell US to respect their version of religious rites. Sticking together? I mean USA and Canada.
Based in Sault Ste Marie, Ontario, I look across at Sault Ste Marie, Michigan every day. So far untouched by certain groups. A friend remarked that it is the winters. (Laughs).
@randall g at August 27, 2007 1:47 AM
“Richard Ball, you are wrong that there is no morality without religion.”
I never said that. I said that morality has no objective existence if there is no God — it is merely a human artifact. There can be morality without religion, but their cannot be morality without God. The fact that morality exists points to God’s existence and makes it logical to believe that He does exist, and irrational to believe He doesn’t.
If the universe, including humans, is uncreated, undesigned, and unintended, then any moral strictures we may invent are merely that – human inventions; they have no objective existence apart from us, and, since we are undesigned and unintended, we would have no logical reason for believing that they have any objective validity.
“You yourself have admitted that without your faith you would consider your fellow humans no better than pond scum.”
I said no such thing. I said that logically a materialistic atheist’s view must be that we are no more important or valuable, and have no more rights than, rocks or pond scum.
The fact that I do consider human beings more important and valuable than pond scum, as I assume you do as well, points to an a priori conviction that we are important and have intrinsic value — a belief that is only rational if we were are in fact the products of intentional design. It is atheists who at the same time posit human worth, dignity, and rights who are being irrational.
“Christianity… has, in modern times, come to accept the value of reason and science.”
Wrong again, randall. Christianity has believed in reason and science from “day one”. In fact, it was Christian belief that the universe was designed and regulated that gave birth to western science.
Andrew, John Tory is a 905 socialist who never saw a dollar he didn’t think he should get 75 cents of. There’s going to be damn little difference between him and McSquinty. I’ll take that little difference, because every little bit helps.
But that John(Pink)Tory agenda is not what I want. I’d like to see a 20% cut in Ontario tax right up front and 10% every year thereafter until you can fit all of Queens Park’s employees inside Queens Park again.
I’d also like to see the GTA and Hamilton Region broken back up into their constituent municipalities and de-funded at the federal and provincial level.
Nothing shrinks a tumor like cutting off the blood supply.
Posted by: The Phantom at August 27, 2007 2:39 PM
Sounds like you and I are cut from the same cloth, at least region-wise. Personally I rue the day Harris left and gave lesser minions government over us. He should have stayed the course and finished the job. More’s the pity.
I agree, Tory is the lesser of the two evils, if even marginally so. McGuinty has shown himself to be a liar and, as such, should never be allowed the privilege of serving in government again.
I don’t suffer fools, or liars.
“I agree, Tory is the lesser of the two evils”
But you decide hassle the one person in the thread who actually supports him? That doesn’t make any sense whatsoever. Why not hold a Liberal to account over the 2.5 billion they are scamming you instead of hassling a fellow conservative over etiquette?
One drawback of being a Canadian conservative is the legions of backstabbers so prevalent in our ranks. There’s nothing a Canadian conservative loves more than a good backstabbin’. It’s always been that way. There’s even a name for it, The Tory Disease. So it goes.
Richard Ball
Can’t agree with you more when you speak of intrinsic value of mankind. What indeed sets Christianity apart from Muslim is that the value of mankind is (was?) determined by God when God Himself gave mankind the ultimate worth of the life of God the Son. Islam also seeks the divine approval but seeks to do it through the work of man earning the favour of God. Therefore the universal worth of Mankind that is found in Christianity is not found in Islam. Islam like the Atheists believe that what ever they believe is most important thing even though it changes from second to second and individual to individual.
Christianity has a constant morality even though many Christians do not follow it; whilst the other religions have a shifting morality that changes to suit the whims of the individual practitioner.
I am a conservative in Ontario and I don’t think I will vote for Tory. There are usually independants that you can vote for. Your vote is never wasted regardless of whether or not your party of choice stands a chance.
I am not sure how I feel about school funding but I think a lot of the people who are talking about this don’t remember the past.
When I went to school “public school” meant protestant school. What we really had were catholic and protestant schools. We had daily prayer and religious instruction in my public school.
My oldest son starts school in a few weeks and he will be going to a public school, partly due to geographic convenience. We did consider sending him to a catholic school, even though we are not catholics. I would rather that than a secular school. I am looking forward to deprogramming my children of all th crap I know hey will have foisted on them in a public school.
I half think we should privatize all schools and give parents vouchers and let them choose their own schools. It could hardly be worse than the situation as it is now.
“It’s one thing to sound off about “all religions are bad,” but it is entirely disingenuous not to mention the atrocities underpinned by atheism that have scourged mankind, even in recent history.”
Marxism of that stripe is a religion, that just doesn’t happen to include a god or a heaven in the conventional sense. But it’s got it’s revolutionary vanguard and worker’s paradise. It’s hard on examination to see it as anything other than a highly intolerant monotheism which is why it doesn’t tolerate other religions.
“Christianity has a constant morality even though many Christians do not follow it”
Well that “constant morality” you refer to seems to have been changing all the time and for quite some time in fact. I’d modify that to “consistently lagged behind” instead.
No Jose Cristianity does have a constant morallity. That morality is simply this: Each individual is worth the life of Christ. From that bedrock all morality flows. That you seem to see changes reminds me of what a famous Christian apoligist once described Christianity as being, Christianity is like a rider of a horse that appears to be about to fall off one side of the horse or the other at any given moment. However when the rider never falls you finally realize that he is the consumate horse rider.
One lives and learns.
Taking the advice of other posters, I simply hit GOOGLE. I put in Pat Condell. It came up right away- his website. Oh yes, a hard nosed iconoclast. He would have to be, to tee off on the redoubtable Islamic factions existing in Western society.
He does have a guest book. The only thing lacking is just how does he earn a living. That might tell me something. I know he had better watch his back, in my native country,England.
His best defence, is his attack on the Christian religion. It has put up with far worse.
Joe “No Jose Cristianity does have a constant morallity. That morality is simply this: Each individual is worth the life of Christ.”
That’s a lofty and commendable ideal, perhaps you should remind the Christians of that.
Jose I do every Sunday when I preach in Church. When is the last time you came to listen?
“I’m a conservative and live in Ontario.”
No you’re not. You’re a politically correct pinko who is way too young to pay income taxes in any significant amount. You probably think we need McGuinty’s 2.5 BILLION dollar tax to fight the Christians and the KKK, you jacktard.
“Now I see no difference between them.”
That’s because you are bad at mathematics and you are a moral degenerate unable to distinguish between two very, very diferent entities.
Let’s go back to Lori:
“Most people regard Buddhism as a peaceful and benevolent religion.”
That’s because they are ignorant stools who haven’t studied Buddhism as much as I have. Did you know that in Asia sick people are considered “evil” because it is assumed they did something in a previous life (karma) to deserve their leprosy? And that Zen Bushido was responsible for the Rape of Nanking? Have you ever read the stories of how the Burmese sacked Ayutthaya? I have.
Ontario comes down to:
another 20 million dollar librano$$ “adscam” kick back slush fund, or paying for all the mosques under construction in Toronto for eternity. Is more kick back liberal “business as usual”, worse than paying for burkas and mosques for eternity? I don’t think I can vote for that socialist slob Tory.
He is a “connected” blue blood Toronto “progressive”.
Saw him at the Lebanon war “peace” rally last summer stumping for Hez (spit) support,…dhimmi idiot!
How many Mosques are under constuction in Toronto right now, and where did all the burkas come from??
One thing’s for sure, Ontarians will pay!
Oh, and Phantom, my apologies. You are right about my gratuitous comment – I wasn’t trying to offend, but sometimes the easy cliche just pops out. There was no need for it, and it actually weakened the comment.
I’m a conservative and live in Ontario.”
No you’re not. You’re a politically correct pinko who is way too young to pay income taxes in any significant amount. You probably think we need McGuinty’s 2.5 BILLION dollar tax to fight the Christians and the KKK, you jacktard.
“Now I see no difference between them.”
That’s because you are bad at mathematics and you are a moral degenerate unable to distinguish between two very, very diferent entities.
What an amazingly telling statement about the psychological condition and age of the author.
“What an amazingly telling statement about the psychological condition and age of the author.”
If this offends your precious sensibilities then suck it up, buttercup. Canada needs fewer perpetually offended and more plainspoken people.
“I don’t think I can vote for that socialist slob Tory.”
That’s because you are a pinko too.
Incidentally, we are 6 weeks from an Ontario election and I count more Blogging Tories opposed to John Tory and the PC party than those who support him. I just wanted to point that out as a matter of record the Blogging “Tories” generally support Dalton McGuinty and the Liberal Party of Ontario.
What an amazingly telling statement about the psychological condition and age of the author.
Posted by: rattfuc at August 27, 2007 11:54 AM
Yes, Andrew is quite a prize. What a great Christian! Must make the rest of the cult on SDA’s proud!!
Gary said “Whaaaaaaaa! I want my bottle!”
Poor baby.
Andrew,
Only a halfwit would claim to be a John Tory supporter AND a conservative.
Tory’s policies are the same, watered down pap as McShifty’s. He isn’t a conservative. He’s a red tory which is the alternate term for Liberal. He’s promised to spend as much or more than McShifty. That isn’t conservative. He’s promised to fund religious schools. Since Catholic schools are already public, what do you think he meant? Muslim. He’s doing the Liberals identity politics crap.
And as for the attack, reread what you wrote and if you have any shame, you’d be embarrassed about how stupid you made yourself look. Or maybe you aren’t bright enough to know better. Look up the meaning of Pinko. Fool.
Gary said “Whaaaaaaaa! I want my bottle!”
Poor baby.
Posted by: Andrew
Truly clever, wow…I’m speechless! I bow to your superior intellect.
Neither pinko nor dimmi Andrew, you argue like both though.
Andrew, you won’t find a more fiscal or social conservative than I. What I find telling (and no, I’m not offended) is your use of the phrases “Jacktard, pinko and moral degenerate”, to name a few. Your attacks on others with differing views is puerile. If you cannot debate
others without employing the use of demeaning words, you have no business debating them at all.
“Tory’s policies are the same, watered down pap as McShifty’s.”
Wrong, wrong, wrong. Most of us productive Ontarians WHO PAY TAXES UNLIKE STUDENTS passed high school math and understand that FOUR HUNDRED MILLION DOES NOT EQUAL (>, !=, ETC.) TWO POINT FIVE BILLION YOU MORON.
400,000,000 != 2,500,000,000
“He’s a red tory which is the alternate term for Liberal”
So are you so I don’t see the problem.
Andrew,
Clearly you’re just trolling as I find it hard to believe you’re employed.
I agree this was an obvious ploy to buy Muslim votes, and perhaps some RC and Jewish votes, but does he really think that Muslim immigrants are EVER going to vote Conservative in significant numbers?
They’ll just take the free religious schooling, laugh at the stupidity of Canadians, and continue to support whichever party their leaders tell them to support. I.E. the party which is least likely to say “no” as they request more and more special treatment.
In the end, they will all end up voting NDP and liberal, as has happened in Europe, where Islamic block voting forms the core of left-wing city governments, and not too far in the future, national governments.
Stupid, stupid, stupid.
As an ex-Ontarioan, it’s refreshing to see what I left behind chase it’s collective tail. But hey, a healthy debate no less. Nice to see the snooze button is finally kaput and you do seem to be waking up to the level of retardation of the political idiots stealing your money. Too bad you had to do it on a western blogsite, why not start one of your own?
I’ll give you an authentic American viewpoint:
Your religion, or lack thereof, is none of my business. Likewise, mine is none of yours. You are free to believe any damn fool thing you like, but are NOT free to demand I believe it as well.
You can be a “new” Druid and celebrate the wrong solstice, but I’m going to consider you an idiot, guaranteed. And not quietly, either.
Or you can be a Wahhabi fundamentalist Muslim, and beat you wives and sisters to death over your illusory “honor”, but I’m not required (or likely) to respect your beliefs, and I’ll probably try and get you arrested and punished for assault and battery if not outright murder.
‘Cause I’m a “giver”…
ON’ians have the advantage of 20/20 hindsight when it comes to supporting a “faith-based” school system. It seems this may well be the election question and it is huge.
Do go beyond the opinions of the so called “educational elites/decision makers” as to how successful this pathway actually is likely to be. AB has spent millions/billions on educational change which often amounted to change for the sake of change rather than actually benefiting students.
AB embarked on the Charter School path in the mid 1980’s without the benefit of hindsight. After 25 years, the process is virtually non-reversible – for better or for worse. Of course many of the educational elites will praise the system – they invented it and allowed it to grow. New schools are likely to be of the P3 variety – public/private/partnership and it’s not a huge leap to figure where this is likely to go. The charter school program has basically become a language/culture/faith based system with the exception of special needs students. The number of students being home schooled has jumped considerably in the past few years. The quality of life/education in the public schools has arguably generally gone down and is likely to go down further.
The one major difference is that the private/charter/whatever schools do not, by law, have to accept students. The public system does not have this luxury – it must accept, by law, all students who arrive on their doorstep. Of course the climate within schools other than public is going to be considered by many people to be “better” than the public school systems. How can it not be.
Allowing the proliferation of faith-based schools raises questions of perpetuation and in fact the intensifying of diversity/elitism/non-tolerance as time goes by. Is this really in the best interests of moving toward a tolerant, reasonably accommodating population?
I would urge ON’ians to get past the emotional and think long and hard about how your existing system can be adjusted/improved before moving on an election promise of implementing a faith-based pathway. Once this door is opened, you can kiss your public system, as you know it, farewell. Because other provinces have gone this route is no reason to think that ON is probably right/o.k. to do the same.
The estimate of $400M to get it going in ON is laughable. What will likely happen is that millions will come in from offshore and highly influential/financially placed locals and you will see instant schools go up in many, many different places.
There was an education-lobby female on CPAC the other day who feels it is just fine to have students educated in a language that is neither English nor French. Really. Once you open the door in ON, you will never close it nor will you be allowed to cherry pick what faiths will be allowed to set up their own school. They will all have this right and will go to the supreme court, if necessary, to get it done.
The socio-cultural aspects of Canada are considerably different now than they were in the mid ’80’s. If ON’ians feel they have a problem with political correctness now – and they should – the situation will likely be compounded many fold if full fledged faith-based education is opened up in ON.
“It seems this may well be the election question and it is huge.”
I’ll say this again slowly. Two point five billion dollars is a much bigger number than four hundred million. You reject mathematics by suggesting that the McGuinty health tax is a bigger issue than a theoretical program which costs much less.
The people who don’t have a problem with McGuinty’s $2.5 billion health tax? They don’t make very much money and don’t pay much tax if any. Freeloaders, in other words.
JSchuler: the man believes in secularism because that’s what he believes in.
It would be a deeply cynical act to sit back and think about which belief system would act as the best vector for your particular idea, then choose that. It would accepting the “religion as the opiate of the masses” theory for the purpose of exploiting it.
Andrew,
Clearly your reading comprehension skills were learned at an Ontario public school.
No one has suggested a preference for McShifty’s health tax. That someone thinks that funding religious schools is a bigger issue than the health tax is not the same thing as suggesting it is exclusively a mathematical equation. It is not.
Clearly you are gullible.
$400 million for Tory’s Maddrassa plan is not honest. It will cost much more.
Clearly you have logical deficiencies.
These two issues are not related except insofar as they are two cardinal screw-ups by two terrible leaders – neither of which deserves to govern.
Most of the people on this board want lower taxes, less spending, less government interference, less bureaucracy, less meddling by government, less programs and more freedom. Funding Tory’s Saudi Maddrasses is not on that agenda. Neither is McShifty’s tax.
Your stupidity embarrasses real conservatives.
Well put, Warwick.
“No one has suggested a preference for McShifty’s health tax. ”
Oh yes you have. You just said you can’t support John Tory. And since there is only 1 other man who could conceivably become premier (McGuinty) it logically follows that you are not opposed to re-electing McGuinty and his crew.
You’re trapped. You painted yourself in a bright pink corner and there is no way out.
You’re a Liberal. A dirty, dirty Liberal.
P.S. real conservatives *never* begin a sentence with “Clearly”, that’s a total tipoff you are a Paul Martin-wannabe Liberal.
Kate,
My appologies for feeding the troll.
Well Lori, you may not like Tory’s idea on school funding but we’re already funding one religion, that’s not a fair deal either. We’re way past the reason for funding it in the first place, we’ve evolved, different demographic. Now it’s a social disgrace and an economic disaster.
Tory needs a rethink too, one system for all, leave the religions where they belong, in the places of worship and homes.
Go vote for Extreme Liar, a Liar beyond all liars, he broke every promise he made prior to the last election.
Andrew, John Tory is a 905 socialist who never saw a dollar he didn’t think he should get 75 cents of. There’s going to be damn little difference between him and McSquinty. I’ll take that little difference, because every little bit helps.
But that John(Pink)Tory agenda is not what I want. I’d like to see a 20% cut in Ontario tax right up front and 10% every year thereafter until you can fit all of Queens Park’s employees inside Queens Park again.
I’d also like to see the GTA and Hamilton Region broken back up into their constituent municipalities and de-funded at the federal and provincial level.
Nothing shrinks a tumor like cutting off the blood supply.
Lori, your gracious apology is accepted. You’re not the only one that gets cranky and blurts the wrong thing by a long shot. ~:) I’m full time cranky, these days.
If this Christopher Hitchens clone cannot understand that some religions have better outcomes for their adherents than others, then he is not much better than an appeaser.
Christendom and its underlying values of love and tolerance has been the building block and a solid foundation for all Europe and North America.
Russia also has a strong religious tradition and its people still have a strong sense of introspection and moral compass which will undo the confusion of the marxist yoke.
I never have and never will believe the marxist fairy tales.
May the people of Saskatchewan rise up against it!
we sure beat the crap out of that. from islam to school funding to athiests, kkk, secular humanists, john tory, one post alluded to the fact that our thought, moral thought, that is ,stemmed from christanity. he or she, is right of course, you can’t divorce your thoughts from what has been learned and accumulated throughout history.the rest was mostly politics as usual.
Glad you posted this Kate. Nice find.
I reckon all school funding is religious school funding.
What is current public school funding being used for other than inculcation into the religion of leftist secular humanism?
Are competitive theories taught to say, evolution? Or, multiculturalism? Or, cultural and moral relativism? Or, for that matter, socialism?
As I said before, as much as I don’t like funding for Islam in any way, shape, or form – it might prove more secure that they abide by western education curriculum norms than what much of their current funding from Saudi Wahabiism demands.
On the other hand, if Muslim immigration was ended, I’m sure we wouldn’t be having this debate.
A very timely post Kate, thanks and I would not have seen my fellow countryman on the subject otherwise. Sounds funny to say fellow countryman since I have Canadian citizenship and lived in Canada 51 years. Born foggy old London Town.
Orlin- from the UP.
I take the liberty of a quick sum up. What the man says is extremely well stated and in someone’s face.
If we do not stick together we will hang apart. Should I say suffer under duress of clever manipulators. Persons who tell US to respect their version of religious rites. Sticking together? I mean USA and Canada.
Based in Sault Ste Marie, Ontario, I look across at Sault Ste Marie, Michigan every day. So far untouched by certain groups. A friend remarked that it is the winters. (Laughs).
@randall g at August 27, 2007 1:47 AM
“Richard Ball, you are wrong that there is no morality without religion.”
I never said that. I said that morality has no objective existence if there is no God — it is merely a human artifact. There can be morality without religion, but their cannot be morality without God. The fact that morality exists points to God’s existence and makes it logical to believe that He does exist, and irrational to believe He doesn’t.
If the universe, including humans, is uncreated, undesigned, and unintended, then any moral strictures we may invent are merely that – human inventions; they have no objective existence apart from us, and, since we are undesigned and unintended, we would have no logical reason for believing that they have any objective validity.
“You yourself have admitted that without your faith you would consider your fellow humans no better than pond scum.”
I said no such thing. I said that logically a materialistic atheist’s view must be that we are no more important or valuable, and have no more rights than, rocks or pond scum.
The fact that I do consider human beings more important and valuable than pond scum, as I assume you do as well, points to an a priori conviction that we are important and have intrinsic value — a belief that is only rational if we were are in fact the products of intentional design. It is atheists who at the same time posit human worth, dignity, and rights who are being irrational.
“Christianity… has, in modern times, come to accept the value of reason and science.”
Wrong again, randall. Christianity has believed in reason and science from “day one”. In fact, it was Christian belief that the universe was designed and regulated that gave birth to western science.
Andrew, John Tory is a 905 socialist who never saw a dollar he didn’t think he should get 75 cents of. There’s going to be damn little difference between him and McSquinty. I’ll take that little difference, because every little bit helps.
But that John(Pink)Tory agenda is not what I want. I’d like to see a 20% cut in Ontario tax right up front and 10% every year thereafter until you can fit all of Queens Park’s employees inside Queens Park again.
I’d also like to see the GTA and Hamilton Region broken back up into their constituent municipalities and de-funded at the federal and provincial level.
Nothing shrinks a tumor like cutting off the blood supply.
Posted by: The Phantom at August 27, 2007 2:39 PM
Sounds like you and I are cut from the same cloth, at least region-wise. Personally I rue the day Harris left and gave lesser minions government over us. He should have stayed the course and finished the job. More’s the pity.
I agree, Tory is the lesser of the two evils, if even marginally so. McGuinty has shown himself to be a liar and, as such, should never be allowed the privilege of serving in government again.
I don’t suffer fools, or liars.
“I agree, Tory is the lesser of the two evils”
But you decide hassle the one person in the thread who actually supports him? That doesn’t make any sense whatsoever. Why not hold a Liberal to account over the 2.5 billion they are scamming you instead of hassling a fellow conservative over etiquette?
One drawback of being a Canadian conservative is the legions of backstabbers so prevalent in our ranks. There’s nothing a Canadian conservative loves more than a good backstabbin’. It’s always been that way. There’s even a name for it, The Tory Disease. So it goes.
Richard Ball
Can’t agree with you more when you speak of intrinsic value of mankind. What indeed sets Christianity apart from Muslim is that the value of mankind is (was?) determined by God when God Himself gave mankind the ultimate worth of the life of God the Son. Islam also seeks the divine approval but seeks to do it through the work of man earning the favour of God. Therefore the universal worth of Mankind that is found in Christianity is not found in Islam. Islam like the Atheists believe that what ever they believe is most important thing even though it changes from second to second and individual to individual.
Christianity has a constant morality even though many Christians do not follow it; whilst the other religions have a shifting morality that changes to suit the whims of the individual practitioner.
I am a conservative in Ontario and I don’t think I will vote for Tory. There are usually independants that you can vote for. Your vote is never wasted regardless of whether or not your party of choice stands a chance.
I am not sure how I feel about school funding but I think a lot of the people who are talking about this don’t remember the past.
When I went to school “public school” meant protestant school. What we really had were catholic and protestant schools. We had daily prayer and religious instruction in my public school.
My oldest son starts school in a few weeks and he will be going to a public school, partly due to geographic convenience. We did consider sending him to a catholic school, even though we are not catholics. I would rather that than a secular school. I am looking forward to deprogramming my children of all th crap I know hey will have foisted on them in a public school.
I half think we should privatize all schools and give parents vouchers and let them choose their own schools. It could hardly be worse than the situation as it is now.
“It’s one thing to sound off about “all religions are bad,” but it is entirely disingenuous not to mention the atrocities underpinned by atheism that have scourged mankind, even in recent history.”
Marxism of that stripe is a religion, that just doesn’t happen to include a god or a heaven in the conventional sense. But it’s got it’s revolutionary vanguard and worker’s paradise. It’s hard on examination to see it as anything other than a highly intolerant monotheism which is why it doesn’t tolerate other religions.
“Christianity has a constant morality even though many Christians do not follow it”
Well that “constant morality” you refer to seems to have been changing all the time and for quite some time in fact. I’d modify that to “consistently lagged behind” instead.
No Jose Cristianity does have a constant morallity. That morality is simply this: Each individual is worth the life of Christ. From that bedrock all morality flows. That you seem to see changes reminds me of what a famous Christian apoligist once described Christianity as being, Christianity is like a rider of a horse that appears to be about to fall off one side of the horse or the other at any given moment. However when the rider never falls you finally realize that he is the consumate horse rider.
One lives and learns.
Taking the advice of other posters, I simply hit GOOGLE. I put in Pat Condell. It came up right away- his website. Oh yes, a hard nosed iconoclast. He would have to be, to tee off on the redoubtable Islamic factions existing in Western society.
He does have a guest book. The only thing lacking is just how does he earn a living. That might tell me something. I know he had better watch his back, in my native country,England.
His best defence, is his attack on the Christian religion. It has put up with far worse.
Joe “No Jose Cristianity does have a constant morallity. That morality is simply this: Each individual is worth the life of Christ.”
That’s a lofty and commendable ideal, perhaps you should remind the Christians of that.
Jose I do every Sunday when I preach in Church. When is the last time you came to listen?