May I interrupt the handful of you in this thread clinging to the various permutations of “inside job” theories of 9/11?
A structural engineer has kindly forwarded this photo of what happens to structural steel in a fire.
Wider view.
He adds;
Regarding the post on the World Trade Center and collapse associated with
fire, steel becomes soft long before it reaches it’s melting point. As to
the Trade center, it was built with fire resistant cladding (asbestos and
mineral wool) which was blown away by the explosion. The collapse is
entirely understandable with jet fuel as a combustion source. I am a
professional engineer and have worked on buildings affected by fire.
Attached is a picture of a structural fire with some small and large joists.
No particularly intense fuel sources or explosions were present, but the
smaller joists sagged while the larger composite beam buckled due to
elevated temperatures.
Now, I admit it’s not as compelling as an experiment with kerosene, concrete blocks and chicken wire, but it’s the best we can do for you.
Now, if I may, here are the directions to Truthout.org where you may continue the discussion.
A minor quibble, the “scientist” on DU made it clear that he was using rabbit-fencing, not chicken wire, to make the experiment more realistic. Please, hold all guffaws.
It is apparent from the wider view -not the u shape- that this structure has been brought down by explosives.
Kate, Conspiracy theorists on 9/11 (aka left wing nut job whackos) are buzzing around the web with false info. But NIST has already put out there report which counters them all. You can view it here. Around page 286 of the report begins the assessments of how each of the towers fell and just as your picture shows, the metal does not have to melt completely. Just heating it enough to allow it to soften would enable the weight in the building to create a horizontal sag which would pull in the walls. This would “kink” the exterior of the building bringing all the weight of above floors crashing down onto the floor just below the kink creating a chain reaction of pancaking.
Keep up the great work debunking these whackos.
I’ve been doing the same.
“You are an idiot.”
Thanks Kate, I always suspected that 😉
Dang! I wanted to give your, um, group a piece of my stars & stripes mind!
I s’pose I could go to the trouble of explaining the nature of curtain-wall structures and the forensic evidence regarding the connecting rod tags again here, but y’all can already read it in the thread Kate referenced above, now with the added confirmation provided above. Moreover, I get paid good hard cash to write software that engineers use to keep refineries and other large chemical plants from leaking noxious substances or, worst case, blowing up.
So what would be a better use of my time? To waste it explaining reality to people too stupid to even be capable of engaging in considered discourse, whose opinions aren’t worth the price of a single sheet of toilet paper, and who simply don’t matter to anyone important, or to keep working and (potentially) save their sorry asses the next they happen to be downwind of a large chemical plant?
That was a rhetorical question. Good day.
Moonbats and conspiracy theories are like peanut butter and jelly. I’ll help formulate one for them: Karl Rove has a very special pen-sized mirror that he directs at the sun every afternoon. It greatly magnifies the solar rays coming to earth. He and Bush are the forces behind global warming. Their goal is to bring the sea level up and flood the coastal blue states right before ’08 elections and kill vast numbers of Democrats.
Given that most of the DU are probably under the age of 25, what does this tell us about our centers of higher education?
How do we know that Chimpy and the Jooooos didn’t blow up the building in the sample photo too?
/sarc
Geez, I almost never click on those links but thought a “moonbat” laugh might be good, thanks for the laugh on me! 🙂
The conspiracy theorist’s decree;
If the facts do not match your own personal reality,then alter the facts instead of altering your reality.
Alas. There are those who seriously believe that the towers were brought down by shaped charges. It’s all in vain to point out that somebody in that busy place might have noticed the stringing of miles of the necessary copper wire over a period of months, and so on.
It’s not just the left that harbours this kind of thinking, by the way–not by a long shot. Try to abandon this kind of polarization just for once. What about Hal Turner, for example, and his claim that all the Jews employed at the World Trade Center stayed away from the towers on September 11? What about that wingnut Jeff Rense?
The only question left unanswered:
“Did anyone remember to bring the marshmallows” ???
I’ll give you that Dr.Dawg, can’t say that moonbats are only confined to the left, especially on this issue. It comes across that way since the main focus is that Bush did it hence it is anti-right, no?
Anyone who believes the theories flying around out there regarding this is just plain nuts, PERIOD.
Now, the debate of who knew what (or should have) and how far back things should have been noticed is another issue which will rage on, a different cup of tea altogether.
Congrats Kate, you have us all trained to click on the link.
Got to give this special group their own name, how about ‘goofbats‘?
To be fair, JP4 and Jet-A fuels commonly used in turbine engines are kerosene derivatives, so I recommend we stipulate that the kerosene was a reasonable substitute in *the model*. The rest of spooked911’s experiment is a terrible waste of a high security hamster cage…
Yes but – if only the World Trade Centre had been built using rabbit fencing and not structural steel would we be having this discussion?
…wow, I clicked on the link and reached the end of the Internet…
Cool!
“Nature never deceives us; it is always we who deceive ourselves.”
Jean-Jacques Rousseau
9/11 Conspiracy Kook Cleared to Teach Islam
University of Wisconsin-Madison’s Kevin Barrett, a convert to Islam who believes the World Trade Center towers were brought down by controlled demolition and Al Qaeda is a CIA front, has been cleared to teach at the University despite his (in the words of the provost) “politically unpopular” ideas: Provost review clears Barrett to teach class on Islam. (Hat tip: Mark.)
The school is trying to portray it as a courageous stand for free speech, when it’s really a victory for sheer lunacy.
Following a thorough review, University of Wisconsin-Madison Provost Patrick Farrell today announced that lecturer Kevin Barrett will teach, as scheduled, a class titled “Islam: Religion and Culture.” … via LGF
Now we see the violence inherent in the system! I’m being repressed!
What about Building 7?
I, for one, don’t dispute the argument that 9/11 was an inside job.
(Inasmuch as a group of Allah-maddened hijackers inside the cockpits of a couple of airliners, flew them inside the World Trade Center, that is.)
What about the CONCRETE DUST??? Whenever there’s dust there’s a controlled demolition. This has been going on for centuries!!! The black nobles who were appointed by the cannonite kings still rule the world by proxy through the secret society of the stone cutters. This society is responsible for such things as the fake moon landings, JFK, 9/11 and now the death of Keneth Lay.
Engineer, smengineer – so what if this guy knows exactly what he’s talking about after years of hard work and study! Those who ‘want to believe’, who ‘really know what happened’ should be encouraged to try and recreate the WTC demolition with lots of napthalene contained within a glass and metal structure like a fishtank perhaps – that would prove something once and for all.
Ya, OK, but has a moonbat stood on that steel?
Maz2
I saw Barret on H&C. Anybody this stupid who can hold down a University job is a genius.
Steel doesn’t burn. The Jet fuel would burn off before melting all the steel. Another note the US gov’t released supposedly classified photos of the jet hitting the Pentagon. I saw an explosion I did not see a jet. Where are all the pieces? Even after a plane as big as that explodes there would be debris. There is nothing and please don’t bullshit us by saying it all burnt up. It must have been an act of god. What say???
Terry Gain
What visual evidence in the wider photograph makes you believe the structure failed due to an explosion? All I see is warped structural members consistent with a fire.
OK4UA
Steel can burn under the right conditions. Burning is a rapid exothermic oxidization. Welders burn steel all the time when hot cutting.
Review the article. The steel did not melt, it lost strength due to increased temperature. The loss of strength meant that is could not resist the buckling forces.
I saw the photos of the plane hitting the Pentagon and was underwhelmed myself.
TAKE A GOOD LOOK AT THIS PHOTO : http://www.montalk.net/wreckage.jpg . Do you SEE ANY AIRPLANE WRECKAGE IN THAT PHOTO? Didn’t think so. I may wear glasses but I know when I don’t see plane wreckage.
The 9/11 conspiracy was planned and organized in my brother’s friend’s plumber’s basement by a group known as the “slick dicks”. They all used to be Cheney’s henchment at Haliburton and got paid by the CIA. Cheney’s an old mason from way back… to be continued…
Good thing they all left the CIA, head guy Regan and Bush 1, The MI5, Blair Cabinet Minister, German Defence Minister, Not counting the Thousands of others in Scholars for 9/11 Truth. Even though we know that they governments done this sort of thing hundreds of times before.
It’s to scary for these here, because if it’s true then all they’ve done all their lives is for not.
Those savings accounts not worth the paper they’re written on. Those of us that hoarded Gold over the years have made a fortune and might live in semi comfort.
Water is almost gone now, so soon only the privleged will get clean water.
IF I told People back in 1985 that the USSR would be nothing in 4 years these guys all would have called me a tinfoil hat waering nut. But look what happen four years later poof no more. Just like the USSR the US can disappear in a short time. The Neocons have clean out the piggy banks of our great grand children. America is Broke.
Who wants to buy shares in ENRON?
Maybe the power companies will start rolling black outs to raise price again, in the states, that wouldn’t cost much in manufacturing because everything is made over seas.
Engineer, smengineer – so what if this guy knows exactly what he’s talking about after years of hard work and study!
Remember that the next time one of your buddies calls global warming a hoax.
Yes and all the Columbian coffee growers stayed home on the morning of 9/11.
Not one single coffee grower casualty!
Juan Valdez retires shortly thereafter!
See the pattern there Neutral?
Theres more.
There were tonnes of coffee present in the twin towers.
Mixed with the proper household chemicals coffee can be made into a substitute for gunpowder.
Over 90% of the survivors had caffine in their systems.
Starbucks operated out of the World Trade Center.
Coincidence? I think not!
We here at the Grassy Knoll Institute are currently investigating information that shows no representative or citizen of the Vatican City was present in the World Trade Center on 11 September 2001.
Nor to our knowledge were any members of the British Royal Family.
Coincidence? I think not.
Steven E. Jones, Brigham Young university
David Icke Research Fellow
Is coffee served at Buckingham Palace?
Or just tea?
Ever seen a label on a package of coffee claiming to be coffee makers to the Royal Family?
Have you ever tried buying a decent cup of coffee in Rome?
Ever see a go cup on the balcony when the Pope speaks to the masses?
The facts speak for themselves.
Be afwaid, be vewy vewy afwaid. It was the wasckally wabbit.
This is like trying to discuss astronomy with a member of the Flat Earth Society.
I’ll wager the building pictured has nothing in common with the WTC structure nor has the fact that there were pools of molten iron in the base ( sub floor) from the tempered Iron pilings that went into the bed rock. Also unaddressed i how a fire on the +60 floor melts iron at the base of the building….and the building collases like a perfect control demolition…or the fact that any expansive engineering invetigations were called for or appeared in the official story.
Perhaps rumors abound in atmospheres of secrecy and incomplete, insufficient reporting on catastrophic events.
Having read the papers put forward by the scientists and engineers in the 9/11 truth movement, I can state that the main thrust is not to propose and theory but to call for a proper investigation which will answer un answered questions and satify the broader pubic interest….the 9/11 report was woefully insufficient on solid facts conserning questions asked by even the WTC underwriters.
One doesn’t have to be an engineer to realize that the WTC collapse due to the steel structure failing with moderate heat is true. The Blacksmithing trade must be at least 3000 years old. Almost all of a Blacksmiths work depends on the plastic like phase steel/iron goes through when heated. Without this physical principal, horseshoes would never have been possible. A blacksmith seldom melts steel/iron for his work.
Right on Kate !
I get so sick of these couch engineers who think that a plane flying at 200mph (or more) fully loaded with fuel that crashes into a building and explodes into a huge fireball is not enough to bring down the building.
Why it has to be a CONTROLLED demolition of course
How many new cars do you think they can make with that steel once its been recycled?
If you want to know why the world trade center collapsed all you have to do is understand and accept one simple fact. Gravity ALWAYS works!
“IF I told People back in 1985 that the USSR would be nothing in 4 years these guys all would have called me a tinfoil hat waering nut.”
And they would have been right, since the USSR didn’t collapse until 1991.
Right on TBird.
Gravity is not a regulation,its the law!
So we better stay out of buildings cause gravity will bring them down on us. LOL
Where did the explosives come from that they found on the steel?
I haven’t seen one piece of proof that the buildings came down because of Fire. What melted the steel 40 floors below, what about the steel in the floors ten stories below the fires, they melted to WHY.
Why did the firemen that reached the flooes say they could put it out with 2 hoses?
Why did all those police and firemen say they heard explosions?
Why doesn’t the White House show the film, if they want to put an end to the questions, of the plane hitting the pentagon? They’ve got 20 different angles of it, why not show them? But you guys would rather trust someone you know is crooked.
neutralsam…
You are an idiot, I’m sorry to say…
If you have personally never been to, say, Italy, is it your contention that, because you haven’t seen it for your own eyes, Italy doesn’t exist?
Or is this all part of Bush’s evil scheme to dominate the world?
I mean, c’mon…
Neutral
If you cannot accept my theory that it was all caused by Juan Valdez having a caffine fit then you too have totally closed your mind.
Hell man, give me a couple of tons of Coffee Mate and I could take out every beaver dam from Porcupine Plain to Winnipeg.
And that, my friend, is A TRUE FACT.
We See, lol,, all you can do is write your asinine responces with the little minds you have. lol
At least we know who the tag-a-longs are, LOL, whats the matter can’t think or read for yourself. LOL,
The guy that headed the Star wars program that you all think is so get, is a member of scholars for 9/11 Truth. LOL you guys sure are gonna look stupid when they announce the findings. LOL
I care not for the praises of idiots I right for the thinkings in the crowd obviously your not in that crowed.
The February 13, 1975 North Tower Fire
Fire Commissioner John T. O’Hagan said yesterday that he would make a vigorous effort to have a sprinkler system installed in the World Trade Center towers as a consequence of the fire that burned for three hours in one of them early yesterday morning.
The towers, each 110 stories tall and the highest structures in the city, are owned and operated by the Port Authority of New York and New Jersey, which is not subject to local safety codes.
As Commissioner O’Hagan stood in the sooty puddles of the North Tower’s 11th floor hallway, he told reporters that the fire would not have spread as far as it did if sprinklers had been installed there.
The fire spread throughout about half of the offices of the floor and ignited the insulation of telephone cables in a cable shaft that runs vertically between floors. Commissioner O’Hagan said that the absence of fire-stopper material in gaps around the telephone cables had allowed the blaze to spread to other floors within the cable shaft. Inside the shaft, it spread down to the 9th floor and up to the 16th floor, but the blaze did not escape from the shaft out into room or hallways on the other floors………
Only the 11th floor office area was burned, but extensive water damage occurred on the 9th and 10th floors, and smoke damage extended as far as the 15th floor, the spokesman said.
Although there were no direct casualties, 28 of the 150 firemen called to the scene suffered minor injuries.
How come it didn’t Fall gravity take a day off? LOL
Neutralsam,
First of all, please take a course to upgrade your writing skills…
Secondly, although that’s an interesting comparison, there’s one slight difference between your example and 9/11….
That would be a fucking Airbus flying into the side of the building at 500mph.
You think that might have caused a structural issue in addition to a fire?
Moron….
LOL, your so dumb…
Why would one of the top engineers go to all the work if idiots like you can read?
Here’s it explained in a way you might be able to understand. Just a guess. lol
janedoe0911.tripod.com/BilliardBalls.html
If the words are too big for ya they have pictures.
Well your evidence certainly stands on its own.
Brightly coloured charts,bar graphs and billiard balls too !
That’s all the evidence I need. no wonder the democratic underground latched (leeched) onto it.