NDP Leader and would-be Prime Minister Jack Layton, speaking before the Islamic Society of North America, May 20, 2006;
“We also have to put an end to the security certificates – the security certificates and that whole piece of legislation, bill C-36, must be thrown out!”
(wmv)
Luc Portelance, Assistant Director of Operations, CSIS on June 3, 2006;
“This is the largest counter-terrorism operation and arrests in Canada since the creation of the Anti-Terrorism Act [C-36] and the amendment of the Criminal Code to better define terrorism.”
Dr. Dawg:
My deepest apologies for the wrongful attribution.
I meant to say Steve D.
Forgive my typo?
In any case the LIEBerals still have much to answer for. And terror elements in Canadian society aren’t going away any time soon, as long as a virulent strain of jihadist Islamic militancy finds creedence among a small but significant minority.
In any case, one can’t tar PMSH with the terror in Canadian streets brush, because even if one accepted the unproven logic connection that troops in Afghanistan create terror at home (notably denied by Gen. Hillier), then the ‘blame’ would accrue to the Liberals who sent them there in the first instance, in the reaction to post 9/11 events.
But then who said jihadists have to be critical and logical thinkers; given their predelictions?
penny: I should clarify my comment re the Muslim community policing themselves. I would expect that any citizen must report acts of crime, or reasonable suspicions of such activity.I would also expect that they would not aid nor abet criminality.This is so regardless of any other identifier, ie, race, gender. But, just as I refused to put on the manteau of the rapist because I am a man, and refused to march with feminists to “take back the night” to prove I am not a misogynist, I do not expect Muslims to act guilty if they are not. Nor would I expect insincere mea culpas would make any of us happier. Asking them to police themselves is therefore useless. And, it is always the first thing that totalitarian states initiate; neighbourhood spy rings. We spent a whole lot of money and a whole lot of souls, ongoing today,to defeat those ideologies.
Mother, are Mohammed Mahjoub and Mahmoud Jaballah of Egypt, Syrian Hassan Almrei, and Mohamed Harkat all Muslims?
Yes, Virginia. Mohammed Mahjoub and Mahmoud Jaballah of Egypt, Syrian Hassan Almrei, and Mohamed Harkat are all Muslims; all Islamist terrorists. …
‘Freedom Caravan’ vigil at MP’s office Thursday
By MICHAEL JIGGINS
Staff Writer
More than two dozen protesters are expected to attend a vigil outside Leeds-Grenville MP Gord Brown’s Brockville office Thursday to bring attention to the plight of three men being held without charges in a Kingston-area prison.
The vigil is being led by members of the Freedom Caravan, a group making its way to Ottawa where hearings are planned on the controversial security certificate issue.
Jim Riesberry, spokesman for the Brockville branch of the Council of Canadians, said about a dozen local residents are expected to join 20-25 Freedom Caravan members at the rally.
He said the caravan will arrive here from Kingston for the 5 p.m. event at the Conservative MP’s office, part of about 15 stops it’s making before arriving in Ottawa.
“Right now they are just making people aware of the terrible injustices that have been perpetrated,” said Riesberry.
“They’re being imprisoned the same way the men are being imprisoned at Guantanamo Bay – without trial, without charge.”
Mohammed Mahjoub and Mahmoud Jaballah of Egypt and Syrian Hassan Almrei are being held in a special holding area inside Millhaven Penitentiary on a security certificate.
A fourth man, Mohamed Harkat was released on bail last week and a fifth man was released in February 2005.
Riesberry said level of public awareness about the detentions and sweeping powers security certificates give authorities is limited.
“They should be aware, but it hasn’t had the major push. They’d be more aware of Guantanamo Bay than they would be of (what’s happening in) Canada,” noted Riesberry.
He said he believes the majority of Canadians would be upset by the situation – if they were aware of it.
“They may be guilty as sin, but we have a tradition of people being innocent until proven guilty. But we have, for some reason, refused to charge and try them … it’s unbelievable for a country like Canada,” said Riesberry.
He said Brown’s King Street office is being targeted because “he’s the federal [Conservative] member.” …
http://newsfeed.recorder.ca/cgi-bin/LiveIQue.acgi$rec=18210
Go here for the “sponsors” of “Canadian Cindy”, Canadian style. Leftists in Canada aping those “bnmjhtfs’ Americans, as Carla Parrish said.
http://www.homesnotbombs.ca
Tonto,
your quiz reminds me of an example of logic I came across in Copi’s “Symbolic Logic” text many years ago –
A scientist wanted to find out what got people drunk, so he tried scotch on the rocks, bourbon with ice, gin with ice, rum with ice, rye with ice etc. etc., got drunk every time, and concluded that the cause of drunkenness was ice cubes.
The ice cubes in your quiz obvioulsy are the Muslim males. What is the equivalent of the alcohol?
WOW agi your a bigger idiot than I first thought.
Agitfact, your ice cube analogy is amusing but flawed. It is the same as people blaming criminal behavior on being poor. It disregards (and actually insults) all those poor people who grow up poor and aren’t criminals because you ALWAYS have a choice of whether or not to take that step and giving people excuses does not work for me. People are responsible for their own actions – period. No matter how down-trodden or abused, they always must make a choice and some choose the high road and some don’t – the ones who don’t, should be held accountable because not to hold them to account means that those who took the high road are tossed to the side like nothing when what they did was right. They chose to do what was right instead of hurt innocent people so those who pick the wrong path should deal with the consequence of that path.
ET
from Wikipedia:
Fascism in Italy combined elements of corporatism, totalitarianism, nationalism, militarism, and anti-Communism.
1.corporate power protected
2.distain for human rights
3.powerful and continuing nationalism
4.identification of enemies/scapegoats
5.supremacy of the military
There are five of my points referenced in the one sentence.
I don’t think you looked or give it much thought. I think you were so busy thinking I must be wrong that you didn’t see the forest for the trees. I can go on if you wish. All fourteen are referenced on the Wikipedia page. They are not listed per se but are there nontheless.
I’ll just observe that in the pic Jack seems to be smelling his fingers… checked, probably, to see if he messed himself after realizing with shock just how assininely stupid he has been!
Trey, your post of 7:41 pm hits the nail on the head.
I’m not going to insert myself into a spirited debate, but citing WIKIPEDIA? Sheesh, that’s pretty pathetic.
This guy can’t be for real. Anybody who’s name is Jac-u-layton has gotta be a dick.
Another Terrorist Attack Coming Soon?
CBS News | June 5, 2006
Posted on 06/05/2006 4:14:43 PM PDT by West Coast Conservative
U.S. officials believe Canadian arrests over the weekend and three recent domestic incidents in the United States are evidence the U.S. will soon be hit again by a terrorist attack. Privately, they say, they’d be surprised if it didn’t come by the end of the year, reports CBS News correspondent Jim Stewart.
The first of the domestic incidents, all of which drew little attention at the time, began with the holdup of a string of Torrance, Calif. gas stations last summer. Muslim converts who bonded together in prison planned to use the robberies to finance attacks on 20 Army recruiting stations.
Los Angeles Police Chief William Bratton admits they stumbled on the plot during a search.
“Make no mistake about it,” Bratton said. “We dodged a bullet here — perhaps many bullets.”
Police in Toledo, Ohio, busted another cell in February. This one consisted of three men training to attack U.S. forces overseas. Once again, luck played a role. When they tried to enlist someone in their mosque to help, he turned them in.
“These individuals are often hiding in plain sight in cities like Torrance and now Toledo,” says John Pistole, a FBI deputy director.
Two months ago, a pair of Atlanta men, one a Georgia Tech engineering student, were arrested not long after communicating by e-mail with two of the suspects arrested in Canada over the weekend. The Atlanta men are charged with videotaping domestic targets, including the U.S. Capitol and the World Bank.
Analysts now conclude similarities between all the cases were dramatic: All were self-financed, self-motivated, and in each case the men were seeking out others to join their cell.
In short, Osama bin Laden didn’t pay for these plots, recruit for them or even know of them. They were all totally homegrown — even amateurish. But if four, including the one in Canada, have been uncovered in just 11 months, officials fear there are inevitably other plots that have not been and are maturing even now.
The next attack here, officials predict, will bear no resemblance to Sept. 11. The casualty toll will not be that high, the target probably not that big. We may not even recognize it for what it is at first, they say. But it’s coming — of that they seem certain.
http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/1643925/posts
Ted; to be clear, I did not specifically say anything regarding Liberal vs Conservative. What I did say is that action was taken quickly under our new government. Who knows what Martin et al would have done with it? Dithered? Would they keep it hush hush that we have terrorists in Canada and hope it would go away?
Also if you notice I said terrorists should no longer be able to use the naivete of too many (from desk sergeants, fertilizer salesman, flight instructors etc.) against the citizenry of this country or any other, that includes the U.S., Denmark, Holland etc. I don’t believe Americans deserved 9-11 and I fully support their President in his fight against terrorists, but if he deserves criticism for being asleep at the switch… If anyone of authority in ANY country is guilty of having prior knowledge and sitting on it…
But you are right I definately implied Liberals and Dippers in our Country.
Were they “suicide bombers”.. ??!!
I would think that these devoted terrorists could easily have become suicide bombers driving their cube vans filled with the fumes from ammonia fertilizer and diesel fuel to their Canadian targets.
I personally believe these nutcases were suicidal and would have driven their explosives to these reported targets:
CN Tower
Toronto downtown stock exchange
Peace Tower on Parliament Hill
… possibly even 24 Sussex
Canada with our own homegrown suicide jihadists … go figure … ???!!!!
http://www.voy.com/178771/1726.html
It’s great to live in a country where you are innocent until proven guilty.
Any chance the NSA piped data to CSIS to get this investigation started or wrapped up? (Actually, the CBC alluded to this….) IF true, I am glad they helped save Canadian lives….
agitfact – why does understanding the militant nature of Islamofascism ALSO mean ‘testing every Muslim’?
And the fact that ‘the only international terrorism we had before 9/11’ etc..was not Islamofascism, does NOT mean that Islamofascist terrorism in Canada is due to 9/11 events or even our involvement in Afghanistan. That’s the fallacy of ‘post hoc ergo propter hoc’.
steve d. So what? You quote
“Fascism in Italy combined elements of corporatism, totalitarianism, nationalism, militarism, and anti-Communism” and state that they are the same as your list. They are not.
Because someone uses the word ‘nationalism’ does not equate with ‘powerful and continuing nationalism’. That would be valid for France, for Iran, for Israel and so on. Are they fascist states?
I can do the same with all your terms. You are not defining fascism correctly.
No, all 14 are NOT listed in Wikepedia as indicative of fascism. THINK. Is cronyism and fraudulent elections really a symptom of fascism??? I went through your list above, and showed how not a single one of your terms is indicative of fascism.
Have you read the books I suggested?
Dawg – you wrote: “Mythic elements, for example, might have fuelled Nazism, but where were they in Mussolini’s corporate state? ”
Mythic elements are an essential component of fascism. I suggest you read Mussolini’s “what is fascism 1932′, wherein he writes ‘fascism, now and always, believes in holiness and heroism…’the real directing forces are quite out of their (human) control”…”it affirms the immutable, beneficial and fruitful inequality of mankind”…”the foundation of Fascism is the conception of the State, its character, its duty, its aim”
[Note: this is anthropomorphism, giving a conceptual identity a human and biological reality]…’the Fascist State is itself conscious and has itself a will and a personality”..”a doctrine must be a living thing, …Fascism has created a living faith”..
This notion of the State as an organic entity, with a conscious Will, is mythic. …
Propaganda as an integral part of governance is necessary within totalitarian regimes whether communist or fascist. It is not necessary in democracies, which have free speech, which will ‘out’ propaganda and reveal its fallacies. Recall the laughter and mockery of Martin’s propaganda election ads (Guns. In our cities).
I refused to put on the manteau of the rapist because I am a man, and refused to march with feminists to “take back the night” to prove I am not a misogynist, I do not expect Muslims to act guilty if they are not.
As well you shouldn’t, mike. But the difference between the rapist and the misogynist in your example is that they aren’t committing crimes against the public invoking their religion. They aren’t part of a group. They are acting alone. Muslim atrocities are in the name of Allah, the diety of the collective community.
I do expect and hope moderate Muslims feel guilty about about the intolerance, primitiveness, polygamy, female abuse, jihad, and all of the other dysfunction their religion has at core. But, time is passing, atrocities in the name of their religion have escalated to a global fascist level and their silence is deafening. Collective guilt isn’t necessarily a bad thing. It ended slavery and forced a nation to re-think Jim Crow laws. It turned the once fascist Japanese and Germans into pacifists.
Muslims, in my opinion, need to start feeling guilty and denouncing the rot publically instead of the standard denial and deflecting blame.
Mike Schmidt:
I would suspect that NSA would likely have been helpful; as they would not be in a hurry to get ‘whacked’ again.
Given, the recent security accord vis a vis NORAD has been extended to land, and sea I am sure that a collegial relationship could reasonably be inferred if not tacitly alluded to.
If one doesn’t respect the right to life; all the others become rather academic. The jihadists have yet to come around to this viewpoint.
It would appear the jihadists have a rather atomized view of society.
Jeez, Free, I’ll try to make it real clear for you:
Tonto has listed 12 incidents perpetrated by Muslim males. That, perpetration by Muslim males, is a common denominator of these events. Are there, by any chance, other commonalities, such as the aims pursued in each of the incidents? Or are you suggesting these acts were carried out for fun or the sheer hell of it?
Free, you may not be curious and satisfy yourself with the explanation of the ice cubes. For propaganda purposes, that would be entirely enough. But then, as you note, I’m an idiot; I would want to know more.
I think Jack needs to wake up and smell the terror. We have to start focusing on survival – as our world becomes more violent and we need to just care about our own kind, we simply cannot allow dissent to interfere with our need for national security. Jack’s comments have no place in a safe society, and that’s why I think we need more anti-terror laws to prevent this sort of thing. I mean, come on. We have a politician who sympathizes with terrorists. It just can’t be tolerated.
We simply cannot allow dissent to interfere with national security. Don’t vote NDP.
Agrifact;
The alcohol is Islam. There are moderate Muslims but Islam itself is not moderate.
Trey,
I had no intention of impugning poverty as a cause of anything in this case. Most known terrorists are neither poor nor disadvantaged. They are dedicated, at least middle-class soldiers sufficiently motivated to kill and be killed in pursuit of a cause. That is the reality we have to face.
ET,
if the religion of Islam is the problem – you yourself decry the “ideology of Islam,” and many of your fellow commenters blame “the religion of peace” – you will have to consider every practitioner of this religion a potential enemy.
agitfact: “you will have to consider every practitioner of this religion a potential enemy.”
No: just those who are Wahhabist/Salafist/Deobandist and are really serious. Who can be isolated and surveilled, if reasonable. If other Muslims are truly Canadian.
Mark
Ottawa
Et
okay there is no nationalism in Fascism unless of course you are talking about real Fascism.
ET Fascism has whatever he wants to have it composed of.
Nationalism is central to Fascism, if you don’t know that you don’t know squat.
agitfact – practitioners of fascism in any variation are all suspect. Islamofascism isn’t any different.
Your own description of terrorists as “soldiers” drives home the point that you don’t want to make. However, the “the religion of peace” is the enemy. We are at war with it. It’s adherents are suspect unless proven otherwise.
If Muslims don’t like feeling suspect, they can reform their dysfunctional fascist religion. The ball in their court.
Wow, good to see racism is so alive in Canada. Jack Layton is like those who supported Hitler and was against fighting him? Do any of you have an education? Do you know what history is? It’s a much better idea to hate Muslims instead of separating the terrorist extremists from those that actually believe in what the religion teaches, right? Similar to all the idiot Catholics that claim to represent the religion while being completely hypocritical of the actual teachings of Catholocism. Is Jack Layton the problem? Whether you agree with him or not, there is always going to be trash as stupid as some of those who have posted on here. You racist pricks are no better than those you claim to hate. Please drop dead and make the world a better place.
Yo Ben Gay/Gay Ben, whatever your name is – what “race” we talkin’ ’bout here?
Do tell us “what the religion teaches.” That should be a doozie.
“Idiot Catholics?” Doesn’t that make you a “racist” in your world?
Moron.
Sorry to take so long to get back to you Stephen.
It’s been a long day at work.
“Evidence that would convince serious people”?
Always opens to the left, Stephen?
Knob..? Doorknob…? Left=open…?
Dont ask me to post photos to help you with this.
Or did you think I meant something else, you dirty minded little knob?
Wow, Mississauga! Good job reading! If you could you understand English you would see that I am refering to “racist Catholics” who are hypocrites? Get it? No, I didn’t think so. All religions teach acceptance and tolerance. The problems in religion are those that manipulate the teachings to preach hate. I hate the hater, not religion or tolerance. Terrorists are a cancer on the earth and those that are spewing this racist garbage are the same as them without the balls to do anything about it. Either way… defined as scum. Mississauga, please learn to read and think intelligently or stop communicating with everyone. Thank you, die.
P.S. Mississauga, nice homosexual reference. I’m impressed that you can’t understand sarcasm and criticize prejudice while making fun of “Ben Gay/Gay Ben”. Nice, you’re awesome. (again there is sarcasm idiot.)
Simple question for Kate’s guests from the left side of the equation. What does Jack espouse as replacement for C-36 and Security Certificates?
This is the point should debate here: Let’s examine the NDP-advanced superlative replacement legislation and mechanisms upon which we will rest our national security.
“What does Jack espouse as replacement for C-36 and Security Certificates?”
We’ll all wear burqas and pledge allegiance to allah six times a day.
C36 represents a completely unacceptable attack on civil liberties. I tore up my Canadian Alliance membership card and mailed it to Stockwell Day when he voted for this piece of totalitarian idiocy. Those who assume this is the solution to the problem are sadly deluded and may well end up classified as “terrorists” when it is convenient for the government in power.
A simple solution to the problems posed by Islamic insanity already exists; the various Mental Health Acts of the provinces. Anyone who has spent any time looking into this so-called religion sees an abundance of psychopathology. The Mental Health Acts provide for indefinite involuntary hospitalization for individuals that pose a danger to themselves or others. Through their statements and actions, very large numbers of muslims residing in this country have demonstrated their mental instability and should be committed under various mental health acts. It is unlikely that they could be treated given their fanatical reverence for a misogynist temporal lobe epileptic pedophile with delusions of grandeur. They could be given the choice of permanent hospitalization in Canada, or return to some of the middle-eastern country-size insane asylums where their delusions are shared by a majority of the populace.
Religious fanaticism is often associated with temporal lobe abnormalities and this happens in all religions. Islam has a singular propensity for extreme psychopathology in the majority of individuals infected with this meme. Any religion that views the personal bomb belt as the greatest invention of the century and has a tendency to automatically call for the execution of anyone who dares poke fun at its prophets should be excluded from this country. We don’t give the psychotic rantings of a schizophrenic the protection of “freedom of religion” even if his delusions have a religious theme and islam deserves the same fate. It seems to be impossible to practice islam in the privacy of ones own home and respect the rights of others. In Canada politicians appear to be incapable of understanding this concept so an analogy might make it clearer. Lots of people who have a “conservative” orientation find homosexuality repugnant, but the vast majority of individuals I know couldn’t care less what perversions people practice in the privacy of their own homes as long as these acts involve consenting adults. Certain homosexuals have a preference for involuntary sexual relations with young boys and such pedophiles are pursued with great vigor and imprisoned or executed depending on the society. If we substitute religion for homosexuality in the above analogy, then islam would represent the pedophile aspect of homosexuality and it is not a religion deserving of respect, but rather an abberation that should belong in a museum of historical psychopathologies rather than a growing societal cancer in western societies.
I very much doubt that Jack Layton would like my idea of how to replace C36 and security certificates in this country, but then I don’t really care what he thinks and I can’t think of a better embodiment of the loony left than Jack.
From the Al Quaeda manual:
http://www.fas.org/irp/world/para/aqmanual.pdf
Missions Required of the Military Organization:
The main mission for which the Military Organization is
responsible is:
The overthrow of the godless regimes and their replacement with
an Islamic regime. Other missions consist of the following:
1. Gathering information about the enemy, the land, the
installations, and the neighbors.
2. Kidnaping enemy personnel, documents, secrets, and arms.
3 . Assassinating enemy personnel as well as foreign tourists.
4. Freeing the brothers who are captured by the enemy.
5. Spreading rumors and writing statements that instigate
people against the enemy.
6. Blasting and destroying the places of amusement, immorality,
and sin; not a vital target.
7 . Blasting and destroying the embassies and attacking vital
economic centers.
8. Blasting and destroying bridges leading into and out of the
cities.
…
[The member] should have a calm personality that allows him
to endure psychological traumas such as those involving
bloodshed, murder, arrest, imprisonment, and reverse
psychological traumas such as killing one or all of his
Organization’s comrades. [He should be able] to carry out
the work.
Items 7 and 8 look of interest in light of recent events in Canada.
On that note cheers!
Dear Iberia posted at 9:29 p.m. Yes it is great to live in a country where one is assumed innocent until proven guilty. Trouble is its not so great for those for whom this does not apply – parents presumed guilty of child abuse who lose their children despite no evidence and no hearing as is required under rule of law (my posting of 9:19 a.m. is only one example – 13 year olds who spend 52 days in jail despite three bail hearings on a trumped up charge (arson for reputedly setting fire to a scarecrow) and after the witness is found dead, all charges are dropped.) We have many such scenarios in our audits,along with evidence of criminal activity against our most vulnerable, problem is getting the information out, no-one seems to want to know.
Nice hissy fit, Ben. Again, what race are we talking about?
This notion of the State as an organic entity, with a conscious Will, is mythic. …
ET, this is anthropomorphic, certainly, but strictly speaking not mythic. Myth is transcendental; this notion of the State is, on the other hand, supremely immanentist.
I enjoyed this quotation: [Fascism] affirms the immutable, beneficial and fruitful inequality of mankind. Wasn’t it you who averred, a while back, that unequal concntrations of wealth and power create dynamism? Not that I’m calling you a Fascist; but this would seem to put paid to the bizarre revisionist notion that Fascism is a kind of socialism. It’s not: it’s rationalized capitalism, with an ideology that suits the purposes of the power elites (once called “the ruling class”).
Finally, states generate propaganda regardless of the degree to which freedom of speech is operational. These days, in Canada, it’s called “spin.” You yourself have been one of the pack who has been complaining about the alleged lock-step messaging that the evil “MSM” has been up to, an unholy cabal of Libranos and their media accomplices. Give us a few years of Harper and order will be restored. 🙂
No, dawg, you are quite incorrect.
Myth refers to ultimate origins of reality, and locates those origins within non-material, ie within metaphysical forces. These forces are thus metaphysical and transcendental (beyond comprehension). Now, the forces can be located within the material entity (internal, immanent) or external (in some mountain, the winds, etc).
So, a fascist state locates its power, its force of existence, within the state (that can also mean within a particular ethnic group). So, a fascist state is mythic; its originating power is metaphysical (transcendental) and internal (immanent). That’s mythic. I suggest a bit of reading on myth.
Because fascism affirms inequality does not equate with asymmetry! My god, Pareto’s law of wealth distribution is hardly a fascist law. Any population larger than about 100 members moves into an asymmetrical control of energy/wealth.
And that has zilch to do with capitalism but with the ability to control the future. A seed is an asymmetrical location of energy, removing matter from daily use and storing it for future use. Any population larger than that 100, must move into asymmetry of wealth and capital control.
Yes, fascism is a form of socialism. It advocates a collectivist ideology focused around the primacy of the group. That’s socialism. The individual is denigrated and submerged within the group. And this isn’t ‘bizarre revisionism’; the socialist infrastructure of fascism is well-known (read Popper).
No, you cannot equate fascist and communist style propaganda with ‘spin’. The difference is the total control of information by a government agency, the deliberate manufacture of fiction and the lack of dissent against this fiction. Our knowledge networks may be biased but dissent is possible via other media.
I suggest a bit of reading on myth.
*cough*
I would suggest the same, perhaps beginning with Joseph Campbell and moving on from there. A few bits and pieces of text–sundry appeals to history, inevitability and imagined communities– do not make up a myth. Follow your own advice.
In any case, a purely immanentist world-view is the opposite of a mythic one. Mussolini didn’t spend a lot of time on metaphysics; a few rhetorical asides don’t mean much in the context of his corporate state, any more than “God bless Canada” defines the Canadian state. (A transcendental originating power? Don’t make me laugh. Mussolini was the ultimate practical dictator, and he knew what power was and where it came from–his blackshirts, not the gods.)
As noted, your point would apply better to some of the architects of Nazism, if not the practice of Nazism itself, not to mention players in movements like the Romanian Iron Guard (Mircea Eliade was a strong supporter, and of course an expert on myth, although he approached the latter from a euhemeristic standpoint.) But my point is that myth, when deployed in such circumstances, remains collateral. Fascism does not depend upon myth, and myth is not always to be found among the ranks of Fascists. A totalizing ideology, certainly, but not one necessarily built upon transcendental notions.
Popper has some interesting things to say, but I’m not overwhelmed by his dualistic (binary) view of politics and society. Methodological nominalism versus methodological essentialism, Aristotle versus Plato? Never mind the tendentious nature of those constructed categories, there’s a lot in between a centralized blueprint of society based upon notions of historical necessity and an atomized, egoistic, anti-state world-view (based, incidentally, upon its own metaphysics).
Your odd notion of propaganda–that it can only exist where dissent is prohibited–is noted. Perhaps a little Ellul might help: “We also must consider the fact that in a society in which propaganda — whether direct or indirect, conscious or unconscious — absorbs all the means of communication or education (as in practically all societies in 1960), propaganda forms culture and in a certain sense is culture.”
Propaganda doesn’t cease to be propaganda the moment there is dissent. That’s, frankly, a childish assertion.
Trying to “define” fascism is, in any case, fraught with the same problems as “defining” conservatism or socialism. One can, however, point to aspects of an ideology, finding them necessary, if not sufficient. I am arguing here that myth is not a necessary component of Fascism, unless you stretch the notion of myth past the breaking-point to mean a fashionable rhetorical assertion of the transcendent.
Is it just me or has the cat got Jack’s tongue. Maybe he is still talking but no one, not even the media, is interested in what he has to say. What a complete putz the man is.
Anyone notice how much Jack looks like Petee Mansbridge when he covers his ‘stach?
dawg – I certainly don’t consider Campbell an authority on myth. His populist text remains that and is not a serious examination.
As for your views on Mussolini, they remain yours. I suggest you read his work.
Popper as dualistic???? My god, how could you get that from his work? Nominalism versus essentialism???? That’s not Popper! Where do you get that from? And he wasn’t Aristotle vs Plato (I am, he was against both). What constructed categories? Do you know what you are talking about? He most certainly does not advocate an ‘atomized egoistic anti-state world view’. You obviously haven’t read him.
Fascism uses myth. You have a limited view of myth (ie., the Campbell view). Read Eliade’s ‘Myth and Reality’, particularly his ‘attempt at a definition of myth’ and you’ll see that the notion of a sacred history is paramount in importance. That’s basic to fascism.
As for ‘propaganda ceasing to be propaganda when dissent exists’ – I didn’t say that. Propaganda ceases to have power when dissent exists. And I’m not a fan of Ellul.
What is a ‘fashionable rhetorical assertion of the transcendent’? Fashionable??? To whom? How?
Again, myth includes the transcendent. Read Eliade.
I’d suggest reading the intro and ch. 6 of Kirk’s ‘Myth: its meaning and functions in ancient and other cultures’. And Levi-Strauss.
I’ll continue to assert my point; fascism is embedded within a mythic idealism; it rejects and is indifferent to external reality and considers that the mythic power can overpower, control and re-mould that external reality. It isn’t ‘people power’ as in the socialist and communist state; it’s mythic power.
Shawn: Yes. For everyone that chants “Bush lied, people died,” I have another slogan. “U.N. bribed, People died.”
via newsbeat1.com
http://frontpagemag.com/Articles/Printable.asp?ID=22786
Campbell’s populist text? The Masks of God? The Hero with a Thousand Faces? Which of his many texts do you mean? If you want to move on to Levi-Strauss or Eliade or somebody elese, let me know, and then try to apply their understandings to Mussolini. I await this with some anticipation.
Yes, my views on MUssolini are mine. As yours are yours. Your point? I’m interested in Fascism in action, not tags from some speech or other.
Nominalism versus essentialism???? That’s not Popper!
Good Jesus, ET, you have some reading to do. Dip into The Open Society and Its Enemies sometime.
He most certainly does not advocate an ‘atomized egoistic anti-state world view’.
True, but his approach to society, piece-meal engineering and all, is compatible with such an approach–the libertarian conservative “no such thing as society” world-view.
You obviously haven’t read him. I think you’ve amply demonstrated that about yourself. Incidentally, I’m aware of his critique of Aristotle (primarily in Ch.11 of TOSAIE), but my earlier reference was to Aristotle’s use of reason and observation.
Telling me to read Eliade? Now, that’s a laugh. Go read him yourself.
Your notion of propaganda was central to your notion of fascism. Now you’re in circular argument mode–propaganda to have power requires that it be used by people who are all-powerful. How this aids us in understanding Fascism will have to be elaborated.
Please explain how Levi-Strauss’ notion of myth applies to the Italian corporate state. Until then, I’ll assume you’re continuing to play tiresome academic games.
C’mon, Dawg and ET, your erudition is wasted on us. Stick to something we can understand and care about.
A few days ago we were debating the meaning of conservatism and socialism. Here is how a LTTE on p.A11 of to-day’s Ottawa Citizen describes the former: “… conservatism is, has been and always will be the path of the insecure, the fearful, the mean-spirited, the self-interested, the morally bankrupt, and the power-hungry.”
I don’t want to insult anyone, but it does show that vituperation is available to all sides, and doesn’t accomplish anything except to confirm the converted.
Hans:
Dr. Dawg:
My deepest apologies for the wrongful attribution. I meant to say Steve D. Forgive my typo?
Why, yes, if you’ll forgive my rudeness earlier. 🙂
ET
Marxist-socialism is collective primacy of the working group. Fascism is collective primacy of the state. Marxism sees the state as a temporary way station on the road to individual freedom through worker run businesses. Fascism is the opposite, the state controls everything, in partnership with corporate power. Mussolini, the founder of Fascism, himself proclaimed in his famous description of Fascism for an Italian Encylopaedia, that Fascism is the exact opposite of Marxism-socialism.
The focus of Marx is to free the worker from the slavery of being owned by the company. The focus of Fascism is to make the individual subservient to the state.
It doesn’t surprise me to see Comrade Jack espousing such views.
A little background: where I grew up, the major employer was the Ontario Ministry of Natural Resources. Now as Sophia Petrillo would say: Picture it…Ontario, 1994. OPSEU goes out on a provincewide strike…ironically enough, against Bobby Rae’s bright idea to bring in Rae Days and put the screws to the very union support that put him in the premier’s chair. By the time the strike ends, nothing is left but bitter feelings between the union and those SCABs who crossed the line to support their families in one of the very few ways it was possible in that place and that time. Mr. Hampton, if you’re looking for a reason why you can’t be premier, blame your leader and your own lack of action to represent the people who put you in power in the first place. I grew up in a union household, and I have to say that any NDP government in this province much less this country before I die will be one voted in too soon.
Anyway…I was down at my mom’s visiting for Mother’s Day as a good boy should. Lacking the monetary resources to support my use of a vehicle, I took the VIA train back to Ottawa. Now, at the time, they were likely training a new crew to drive the trains down the Windsor-Quebec City corridor so they stopped short of the platform. All of us getting on at that stop had to tromp through the First Class section of the train. As I was making mu humiliating march past the ‘chosen ones’ to my coach seat, who should I see at the back of the train but Mr. Layton and his wife. Now, I would’ve said something about how a plane from Toronto would’ve been SO MUCH MORE cheaper than taking a FIRST CLASS train on the same route, but Jackie had his face buried in his dinner so I chose to follow the germaine route I had been taught growing up and did not interrupt his dinner. This, however, is just another example of how the leaders of the Left manipulate their position to elevate themselves above the rest.
From all I have seen, the leaders of the Left in our country come from a basic loathing of the blue collar ethic of most to try to push themselves up to the lawyer/CEO/privileged class of our country. Ultimately, they all learn the same lesson: they don’t belong there. That doesn’t stop them from bleeding their memberships dry in the name of representing their interests. This is why I have more contempt for the Bob Rae/Buzz Hargrove/Jack Laytons of our world than the Brian Mulroney/Preston Manning/Stephen Harpers: Conservatives might screw you, but at least they’ll do it to your face. Liberals try to hide it behind ‘tbe good of the province/country’.
Nice to see that there are crazies embarrassing the Conservatives as well.
Since most of you are too daft to know what you are talking about, a couple of actual facts for you to ponder:
1. The police operations and arrests of the last weekend were accomplished without the use of security certificates, or any of the other draconian provisions of the anti-terrorism legislation.
2. Throughout Canadian history, draconian powers have consistently been used to silence political (or religious) dissent or to undermine the rights of otherwise law abiding individuals. The use of the War Measures Act in 1970, for example, played no significant role in the police and court actions which eventually led to the arrest and conviction of FLQ terrorists. The draconian provisions of the firearms legislation are an ever present threat to anyone who dares differ with the “ban the gun” lobby.” The Padlock laws in Quebec in the 1930s were directed against religious dissenters from the Roman Catholic Church and political opponents of the fascist Duplessis.
But you guys carry on lying about the issues. It is, after all, what you do best.