“Do you know Ian Waddell?”
“Isn’t he the NDP candidate in Vancouver-Kingsway?”
“Oh, yeah, that Ian Waddell. The one who was in the Glen Clark NDP Cabinet that accepted floor-crosser Gordon Wilson into its ranks as a Cabinet Minister.”
“Did he call Gordon Wilson a hypocrite and insist that he resign and run in a by-election?”
“Why no, of course not, he welcomed Wilson into the Cabinet as one of them.”
“Just wondering….”
Via Two Cents, in the comments.
Well I’m just glad that the Conservatives have decided to just be at the same level as everyone. ‘Accountability’ is only a buzz-word at election time that is promised but with no intent to follow through. I’m sure that will win over the rest of the electorate.
With respect, Kate, still missing the point. Emerson decided to switch sides the day after being elected as a Liberal by a couple of thousand votes: the party had not changed one whit from one day to the next, but the government had. And he continued to attend high level strategy meetings right up until the night before he was sworn in.
Probably better for your side to drop it and try to move on.
Coyne summed it up perfectly yesterday:
“In my opinion, the appointments were unprincipled at best, unethical at worst. Others may disagree; there are good arguments on both sides. But what is striking in the hundreds of comments posted on this site since then is how many of them treat ethical considerations as, essentially, irrelevant.
I say that the appointment of David Emerson to cabinet was a grubby reward for crossing the floor. I say that Emerson’s sudden post-election discovery that he was a Conservative was a fraud on the voters of Vancouver-Kingsway. I say that by inducing Emerson to make the switch, the Tories repudiated everything they stood for in the election just concluded, both in their general commitment to ethics and accountability, and in their specific hostility to such exchanges, so palpable in their scandalized reaction to the Stronach and Grewal affairs. […]
I say all this, and the response is: yes, but he’ll cement ties with the B.C. business community. Or, yes but he’ll be a voice for Vancouver around the cabinet table. Or, yes but he’ll close a deal on softwood lumber. […]
It’s as if I were to say: boy, this room is cold. And the response was: yes, but look, the walls are blue.
SOME OF the comments at least aim in that direction. But if they do not dismiss ethical concerns altogether, they are themselves largely beside the point.
That Harper said during the campaign that he was opposed to legislation prohibiting MPs from switching parties, a point to which a good many commenters attach particular weight, would indeed be significant — if the legal status of such transactions were what was at issue. It is not the Tory leader’s failure to pass a law forbidding floor-crossings that has excited such controversy, but his own role in arranging one. I don’t recall him giving as his reason for opposing such a law that he planned on inducing an MP to cross the floor, and didn’t want to be unduly hampered in the attempt. Rather, he appealed to democratic principle, noting that such a ban would give too much power to party leaders, who might thus threaten dissenting members not just with expulsion but with the loss of their seats. It’s an interesting, thoughtful argument. But it would have been more relevant to the current discussion had he said he wanted to retain his power as leader to lure other parties’ members to his own. […]
And none of this — not the broken promises, not the undemocratic appointments, not the crossing of party lines or the dangling of cabinet posts — none of it is redeemed a whit by the observation that it has all been done before, that “the Liberals were worse.” Yes the Liberals were worse, far worse. Yes, the Tories are being held to a higher standard. Why is that a complaint? Would their supporters prefer that the Tories were held to the same standard — that is, that people expected them to be no better than the Liberals? The Tories are being held to a higher standard for the same reason they were elected: because they set a higher standard for themselves.
All I have said, for those who need reminding, is that these appointments were a “mistake.” And the most that I or anyone have suggested as a remedy is that both men should put themselves up for election. I am not sure why this idea should provoke such fury.”
Not exactly your Liberal wanker there. And he has lots more to say about ethics and Fortier and what it all means in what seems to be his last salvo on the subject. We’ve got a bit more at Cerberus as well.
Ted
Cerberus
Ted
Cerberus
I am not happy with the Emerson crossing the floor scenario. There are other ways this could have been done.
As for the Liberals and NDP calling foul and protesting their moral and ethical stance now, after the fact, smacks of the ludicrous in the extreme. Where have the people of these two parties been hiding their ethics for the last 12 years? They decry the argument that the end justifies the means in the Emerson case, and yet, just a few short months ago Belinda crossed the floor after attending an important CPC meeting, Layton kicked Dejarlais out of the NDP for voting the will of her constituents and against the NDP stance on SSM. Also Layton propped up a corrupt Liberal government arguing that his napkin budget justified having a corrupt government in power! Now, the Libs and Dippers have become the holy Grail of ethics and morality? Give me a break–this is politics–at least the CPC didn’t hand out a nice comfy fur mat for Emerson–he is taking his lumps from the ‘morally outraged’ voters in his riding. But where was their outrage when we were being robbed by the Liberals. Guess we are supposed to believe they have morals?
I can’t help but think the Conservatives had to have some idea of the furious backlash that would come from it. If this is true then its just a smoke screen. A smoke screen for what?
Todd, and TB – if you’re going to direct your comments at me, then be sure you know what I’ve said. I have never defended Emerson, nor have I condemned floor crossing. Whether other Conservatives want to yatter on about it, is their business. But don’t confuse what other commentors write with my own opinion on the matter.
I said I’d have prefered he sat as a back bencher, but other than that, I hope more come across.
If other conservatives want to get yanked this way and that by media, that’s their problem. I think it’s ridiculous to hold Conservatives to arbitrary (and newly found) political – not ethical – rules that handicap Harper’s ability to get legislation passed that we need.
CAW – here is my take on the smoke screen idea!
Harper knew that he was in a minority and would face opposition to almost anything he tried to put through the house. His accountability act – the #1 thing would face opposition as the other parties would try to show their dominance by opposing things, trying to change things etc.
Now he can stand up in the house – put forth his accountibility act and say – Now that I have your attention………
Would they dare vote against some sort of floor crossing law or the elected senate. Smoke screen – perhaps!
Oh.. So ‘political’ rules and ‘ethical’ rules are separate and Harper is only playing in the ‘political’ realm. Great spin but garbage by any other name is garbage.
Ted, you state:
“the party had not changed one whit from one day to the next, but the government had”.
David Emmerson was much more a Paul Martin supporter than a Liberal Party supporter.
It is my understanding that Paul Martin personnaly convinced him to run in 2004. He did not want to run in 2006 and was again convinced by Paul Martin to let his name stand for the Liberals. When Mr. Emmerson discovered on election night that Martin had quit, I suggest he felt the party had changed “more than one whit”. His reason for being with the Liberals had disappeared without even a warning.
Just a thought to get all the information into the discussion.
Larry
Let’s look at the bottom line. Canada got the best man for the job. Parliamentory freedom has prevailed.
As a leader Harper knows he has to have loose reigns on his MP’s. Let’s remember how ardent Stock was about towing the party line and that did him no favors. The invitation to cross party lines just has to be there; it’s a small part of this whole democratic process. Many leaders have failed by demanding total allegience to party doctrine.
Emerson knew the invitation to cross was always there; but he also knew that his constituents would also hold him accountable. This is democracy at its toughest.
Kate: I take your point. Fair comment. I also support the view that if your party heads off in a direction that you or your constituents oppose, it should be open to you to cross the floor and even into a cabinet post. I was sad to see Kilgour and O’Brien leave, but respected their decision to do so (which is more than other Liberals did/said/felt, I admit). Emerson’s party however had made no changes from the day before and he continued to attend – one must call it “spying” since he had already decided to go – high level strategy sessions right up until the night before he was sworn in. He didn’t even have the decency to call anyone. He’s an opportunist even worse than Stronach – yesterday his assistant said he “didn’t want to waste his time in opposition”. My point was to distinguish Emerson from Gord Wilson and Stronach.
(And George, seriously, you think Harper was letting Stronach anywhere near any important decision/planning session??)
Fortier is clearly more offensive a repudiation of prior statements and principles than Emerson, especially since he has declared he never wanted to run and has no intention of running even if a seat opened up. How’s that for a commitment to democracy and accountability to the voters and the House!!
However, we all seem to be moving on now and the points been made: Stephen Harper is a serious pragmatist, not the principled idealist, and he will do whatever it takes to get his agenda through Parliament. Take that as a wake-up call for the opposition parties and the conservative base.
Ted
Cerberus
I would bet that not one of the protesting Lieberal supporters, protested or called for a by-election, when Be-line-da (for the power)or Brison,crossed the floor. PAYBACK IS A BITCH.
“he will do whatever it takes to get his adgenda through parliment”
Where have we seen that before? can we say Martin & Layton, Kinda like calling the kettle black!
What gets me though, it is ok for liberals & NDP to break all the rules of the game by propping up corruption & saying this is what Canadian’s wanted. They have very short memories & when you dare to compare, they are using the same answer now, “that was different”. Nothing different about it boy’s & girls, just a different day.
Steven missed his shot at afirst impression, even if everything went smooth from here on and emerson solves the softwood lumber file, the first empression of someone different is gone. Remember this IS politics where the lok can be more than the substance. NOW the conservatives are missing the oportunity again because a friggin NNDP member will introduce the floor crossing legislation that undecided “test drive” group o center thinking Canadians just went left again. I support SH, I know SH, I like SH, but I don’t like this situation, it was miss calculated and the end of the issue does not appear to be in sight. THis will be an issue in the next election and Martin might be able to win on this one IF they took the whole thing down soon.
Mr.Emmerson must have been the smartest SOB in Canada.He apparently knew that the Conservatives were going to win a minority govt. when none of the pundits did.With his knowledge of the softwood debate and knowing that the govt. would be signing an agreement after the election so that GWBush wouldnt get any credit I would have kissed his rear to get him to cross the floor.Martin may have done the same to Belinda.
“We’re just as low and weaselly as everyone else, no matter how much change we promised in the campaign.”
I guess if that works for you as a spin, go for it. Just don’t bother passing the hat my way.
AdScam Martin duped Emerson.
Martin duped the Liberal Party, its partisans, its voters.
Martin baled out on election night; left Emerson high and dry. Emerson baled out of the Liberal Party.
Martin is the turncoat, Liberals. You know that.
Recall Martin. Call a byelection in LaSalle-Emard riding. Throw Martin out. Recall Martin >>
http://www.rapp.org/url/?K1AKM057
Cartoons, Emerson, Gretzky…I’m bored. Bring on the next scandal.
Moose: the way Harper has been going so far… it won’t be long.
Ted – name one “broken promise”.
You’re all pissing in the wind on this one and it’s extremely BORING.
Ted, Emerson crossed the floor because he was offered and accepted a cabinet position and not the other way around. If the PM can offer a cabinet position to anyone he chooses, it does not follow that accepting it must necessarily be unethical. Where is the scandal?
Only the press thinks this is a story of “mounting pressure.” The electorate wasn’t thinking of floor crossing when they held the Liberals accountable for corruption. BTW, nobody has died in a substandard helicopter, no taxpayers’ money was passed around in brown envelopes, and at least the facts have been presented for us to see for ourselves. Frankly, the MSM is trying to tell me how I should feel about this and are the only ones keeping the thing going. Obviously, people have a right to be upset and criticize. What would have happened to Garth Turner is he was a Liberal and criticized the Stronach defection? He would have been labelled a sexist and sent to the basement. The Liberals and NDP talk about ethics; you know the ones who brought in an unqualified rookie cabmin to prop up their failing government; you know, the ones who propped up a corrupt and failing government with their “NDP budget.” Yeah, great ethics. Check out Harper’s accountability platform, there is no mention of necessity to resign and run in byelection; in fact, Harper specifically ruled that out. C’mon folks, put this thing in perspective, though you are free to criticize and at the end of the day, the voters will get their say.
I see nothing wrong with Emerson crossing the floor. Stephen Harper recognized a good man and hired him. Some people just happen to be more interested in getting things done than what political stripe they’re supposed to be. Emerson seems to me that kind of guy. This whole idea of liberals/bad – conservatives/good is so childish. I am a conservative but can recognize good liberals and bad conservatives, even a good NDPer every once in a while.
I come from a country where they have coalition governments all the time and you know what? They work. Let’s get the best people for the job and get on with it. I hope SH ignores this whole stupid debate and carries on as planned. I support him 100%.
Tired of the looney left commenting on Emerson. Much like Saddam commenting on Abu Garib. They have lost all credibility.
Looks like it has pretty much died out though.
In the meantime, makes you wonder what PM Harper has been up to. He has had a week to get down to work and with virtually no one watching over his shoulder.
enough
Considering that the Liberals promised to bring ethics back into government in their 1993 campaign, I find it amusing that the left feel they have anything credible to say about ethics. If they truly believed in ethical government as strongly as they seem to why did they allow thirteen years of one of the most unprincipled governments in Canadian history?
There is nothing a Liberal hates more than having a “Liberal” trick played on THEM. The informed voters of Vancouver/Kingsway knowingly supported a corrupt political party and now they feel “betrayed”. It’s too delicious for words.
PMSH had such a terrible start.
He has the opposition calling for legislation reformers have wanted for years. heh
Keep on “harping” leftie’s.
The more you press the higher PMSH approval ratings get.
You guys have learned nothing from your leftie comrades down south.
Kate,
For NDP and the Libs to behave unethically is no excuse for CPC to do the same.
Right?
moose…
i agree with you lets have the next scandal. BTW there seems to be two spikes floating around. one of us will have to go LOL.
Information???
The folks who have gone bonkers over this issue aren’t concerned about information.
Liberal and NDP supporters are in no position to point fingers.
The eagerness of Conservative supporters to go ballistic over this is just so weird, plain and simple.
MSM, Liberals/NDP are left right out in the cold…brrrr>>>
Harper talks to world leaders [but, but,… not to MSM]
OTTAWA (CP) – Prime Minister Stephen Harper was to be busy on the telephone today, fielding calls from world leaders, including the head of Hamas.
But there was no word from the prime minister’s office by mid-afternoon about what was said – or even if the calls went ahead.
Harper was to talk with the presidents of Columbia and Ukraine, along with the head of the Palestinian Authority.
He is scheduled to meet tomorrow with Quebec Premier Jean Charest.
However, an e-mail from the PMO said it is to be a private meeting, with no photo-op and no availability with the media. >>>> via cnews
Kate: is right I think (finally).
Emerson is the elected rep. He has a seat. That seat and cabinet post are more valuable to the constituents. Whatever the constituents voted for wasn’t going to come to pass anyway. And Kate’s earlier point is KEY: it’s between Emerson and the constituents. If the CPC does as as well as the early experience suggests, Emerson will be ratified in a vote sooner rather than later. If not, he’ll lose the seat. End of issue.
And it’s not a ethical issue at all; it’s a political issue. Harper didn’t make the rules. All that said, it’s probably a good idea to change the floor-crossing rules.
The weekend Globe and Mail (couldn’t find any other paper where I was)said Belinda crossed out of principle — re: conservative social issues. Elsewhere in the issue, a long piece on Mohammed filled with sweetness and light only, referred to the the “demolition of the WTC towers” on 9/11, as if it were a construction project.
This is the kind of vicious enemy thinking we’re dealing with here. As I said elsewhere, the whole moral outrage is just silly, childish, indulgence in “nice feelings”. Coyne is hot a lot, but is way off base sometimes. He’s off the wall on this issue.
I still think the solution is to make the appointment of a certain number of cabinet ministers from the opposition mandatory! They could even keep their affiliations. It would give the opposition more power and be simpler than any proportonal representation proposal so far. And the ridings in which they are appointed would feel “priveleged”. And they wouldn’t really have crossed the floor. Hahaha. That’s thinking outside the box!
I think the problem with this whole Emmerson thing is that the media has a void to fill and Harper isn’t giving them anything. The media isn’t use to being “left” out of the loop, unlike the Libs who used them to sell any half baked idea, and were too stupid to see it for what it was. If Harper made a major policy statement regarding an upcomming bill, this whole Emmerson thing would be so back page or gone.
Kuroki Kid; I agree about the MSM,they’re so outraged because the government isn’t telling them anything,just getting down to business.MSM; THESE ARE NOT LIBERALS running the country now;get off your duffs and do some investigative reporting!I can think of numerous RCMP investigations into Liberal wrongdoing,you’re just going to have to DO SOMETHING,not wait for a phone call,then spin the Liberal Speak!
much as I dont like the floor crossing , everyone has to admit the conservatives got a better deal than two for one with Emerson for Belinder Stronach and Scooter Brison. Scoots is the ultimate yes man.
Wow,
It is really hard to believe all the hand wringing on the part of so many Conservatives over these two appointments. It is time to move on. PMSH has a mandate to govern and he is doing just that.
***Newsflash! There may yet be more things ahead that we may have to hold our noses over. What would we rather… back to the polls soon or have some time for the PM to get on with keeping the promises made during the last election campaign.
It is music to my ears to hear the NDP and the Liberals demanding ‘recall legislation’ and ‘elected senators’ (sound familiar?) Methinks that you don’t have to be a genius to see that Prime Minister Harper has thought out the reasons for making the selections he did. Some of those reasons he has shared with us, others will become evident in the days ahead. No doubt part of it has been to distract attention away from the microscopic glare of the MSM during this time of change so that he could accomplish a quiet transition. Let’s get with the program and support our Prime Minister. As for Mr Emerson and Mr Fortier, they seem to be intelligent, capeable men who have the support of the PM and are shouldering their responsibilities by keeping the spotlight away from Ottawa for a couple of weeks. What a brilliant plan!
I am glad that we live in a democracy and are members of a party that allow questions and dissent. I only wish that after having made the point and given it a fair discussion we could move on. There needs to be support for the leader and unity in the Conservative party. If the left leaning MSM can provoke the right and divide it into several factions, we will have the Libranos back in power and we will be sitting in the backbenches once again, wondering where we went wrong, and waiting for our next opportunity. Let us get over this and move on to more important things like holding the Librano’s feet to the fire as the corruption continues to be investigated.
If we wish to drown in our “principals”, we can be sure that there will not be another party willing to throw us a lifejacket and we will be back to the polls.
My advice, let us learn to swim together in a school or the sharks will eat us.
Maranatha