OK, I’m not that knowledgable on guns and I’ve got a question.
What is better in battle – all other things being equal. 1000 rounds of 7.62 or 2000 rounds of 5.56? Assume roughly equal performance from the guns themselves, the only difference is the difference between the cartridges.
The M4 is actually a derivitive of the M16 and shares many of the same traits. It’s a good choice going forward especially since the M4s are already instock awaiting issue.
Which one did you shoot, Gor? I had the Timney in mine and it lightened up the pull but it was still mushy as hell and nowhere near as good as what you would find on a good standard battle rifle. I think Giselle came out with one…but as far as I know it wasn’t much better than the Timney. You still have that long actuator rod and linkages to deal with.
It is an improvement…but crisp triggers on bullpups is not a reality yet unless something has changed quite recently.
BTW the SGW44 may have inspired but only as the concept…a select fire carbine firing an intermediate cartridge. however the SGW44 was a heavy mother….
Actually there is a simple solution to the bullpup trigger issues…..it’s called an electronic trigger……as soon as somebody figures out the issues of bad connex and battery issues…..
Eugene Stoner was a genius like Samuel Colt…..as a salesman….he managed to sell mediocre firearms with mediocre ammo.
The basic flaw with the AR family is the lack of a piston…instead a stainless steel tube delivering gas to directly impinging on the bolt carrier…
What a clever way to introduce powder fouling directly into the lock work….DUHHHHH.
The C1 was probably the worst of the FAL family….some bureaucrat thought using a plasma cutter to eliminate initial machining of the receivers would save time…. time to cracked receiver as little as 3500 rds.
“The C1 was probably the worst of the FAL family….some bureaucrat thought using a plasma cutter to eliminate initial machining of the receivers would save time…. time to cracked receiver as little as 3500 rds.”
Really? Plasma cutting? Back in 1953 and 54? Who’d a thunk it?
I guess I was just lucky – I put thousands of rounds through FNs – and so did my buddies – and nary a cracked receiver in the lot. I’ll go one farther – nary a problem… as long as proper cleaning/maintenance was done. The only feeding problems I ever heard of (unsubstantiated, third hand) was that the magazine springs would lose tension if they were continually compressed.
Ok Glen, Larry’s point, that I wholeheartedly agree with, is that HK guns are nothing special and work well, just as well as many guns half their price. There is nothing that USP will do that an ordinary Glock will not do (and I dislike shooting both while I will openly admit that they good guns). The difference being that Glock costs half what the USP does and is a sneered at cop gun while the USP is the Teutonic operators’ weapon and coolness and doom. For every torture test that shows how amazingly reliable this or that HK product is I can find similar tests from any major manufacturer that proves just the same. You honestly want to argue that Sig, Glock, FN, CZ are not as reliable? Ok feel free to believe that, except that these guns shoot just as well, tend to have better triggers, fit most hands better and are cheaper. Nissan GTR will perform just well as a Ferrari but Ferrari fans will never respect it. Same goes for HK. Coincidently perhaps the most retarded pistol I ever held in my hand was the P7, I’d rather shoot a Norinco knock off Tokarev.
Also, any sentence that starts with: “SAS/Delta/SEALS use this gun” can be finished with “and twenty other guns”.
Oh and Larry writes novels (epic novels, yes, I am a diehard fan) not comic books. :p
As far as your points about AK not being a suitable replacement for M4 and 7.62×39 not being better than 5.56 I never disagreed with in the first place. Most will probably agree that something between the two rounds – an intermediate round about 6.5mm would be preferable. But 5.56 was chosen decades ago and is here to stay. It is not perfect but it is not bad and certainly nowhere near as bad as some claim.
Finally when HK releases their first bullpup I will laugh my a$$ off when all the fanboys will declare bullpups being the only way to go while simultaneously sneering at all the cheap crap from IMI, Steyr and FN.
I have mostly stayed out of this, but I will add my two cents worth now. I have used Canadian military rifles a lot. I have also had the chance to use M14, SA80, Steyr AUG and a miriad of others. These days the only reason the average infantry soldier needs a rifle is for self defence. The infantry fight with machine guns, mortars, 25mm chain guns, TOW missiles, Javalin missiles, tanks and the artillery and aircraft that they can call in with their radios. Frankly, if an infantry soldier has to resort to shooting someone with a rifle, it’s because he screwed up. With any of the modern rifles its six of one half a dozen of the other. My personal preference is a .308 semi auto. M14 would do FAL would do. I quite like the AUG. It’s compact, simple to use and reliable. The 1.5 times optical sight on the one I used was great for target acquisition, and easier to use than iron sights. So it doesn’t have a sniper rifle trigger. Who cares, it’s not a sniper rifle. If I am part of a battle group or combat team and have all the other weapons at my disposal, almost any rifle is good enough. Hardly anyone on the battlefield is killed by rifle fire anyway.
Yeah, it had a Giselle drop in trigger kit, Vortex red dot and some kind of comp on the barrel instead of the birdcage.
I wouldn’t call it crisp or light but it was certainly better than the stock trigger.
It depends on who you are and who you will fight and how. In our time in most instances being able to initially carry and to then resupply larger amounts of ammunition is an advantage soldiers don’t want to give up. That’s the single biggest reason why the 5.56mmNATO cartridge replaced 7.62mmNATO.
OK, I’m not that knowledgable on guns and I’ve got a question.
What is better in battle – all other things being equal. 1000 rounds of 7.62 or 2000 rounds of 5.56? Assume roughly equal performance from the guns themselves, the only difference is the difference between the cartridges.
The M4 is actually a derivitive of the M16 and shares many of the same traits. It’s a good choice going forward especially since the M4s are already instock awaiting issue.
Which one did you shoot, Gor? I had the Timney in mine and it lightened up the pull but it was still mushy as hell and nowhere near as good as what you would find on a good standard battle rifle. I think Giselle came out with one…but as far as I know it wasn’t much better than the Timney. You still have that long actuator rod and linkages to deal with.
It is an improvement…but crisp triggers on bullpups is not a reality yet unless something has changed quite recently.
BTW the SGW44 may have inspired but only as the concept…a select fire carbine firing an intermediate cartridge. however the SGW44 was a heavy mother….
Actually there is a simple solution to the bullpup trigger issues…..it’s called an electronic trigger……as soon as somebody figures out the issues of bad connex and battery issues…..
Eugene Stoner was a genius like Samuel Colt…..as a salesman….he managed to sell mediocre firearms with mediocre ammo.
The basic flaw with the AR family is the lack of a piston…instead a stainless steel tube delivering gas to directly impinging on the bolt carrier…
What a clever way to introduce powder fouling directly into the lock work….DUHHHHH.
The C1 was probably the worst of the FAL family….some bureaucrat thought using a plasma cutter to eliminate initial machining of the receivers would save time…. time to cracked receiver as little as 3500 rds.
“The C1 was probably the worst of the FAL family….some bureaucrat thought using a plasma cutter to eliminate initial machining of the receivers would save time…. time to cracked receiver as little as 3500 rds.”
Really? Plasma cutting? Back in 1953 and 54? Who’d a thunk it?
I guess I was just lucky – I put thousands of rounds through FNs – and so did my buddies – and nary a cracked receiver in the lot. I’ll go one farther – nary a problem… as long as proper cleaning/maintenance was done. The only feeding problems I ever heard of (unsubstantiated, third hand) was that the magazine springs would lose tension if they were continually compressed.
Ok Glen, Larry’s point, that I wholeheartedly agree with, is that HK guns are nothing special and work well, just as well as many guns half their price. There is nothing that USP will do that an ordinary Glock will not do (and I dislike shooting both while I will openly admit that they good guns). The difference being that Glock costs half what the USP does and is a sneered at cop gun while the USP is the Teutonic operators’ weapon and coolness and doom. For every torture test that shows how amazingly reliable this or that HK product is I can find similar tests from any major manufacturer that proves just the same. You honestly want to argue that Sig, Glock, FN, CZ are not as reliable? Ok feel free to believe that, except that these guns shoot just as well, tend to have better triggers, fit most hands better and are cheaper. Nissan GTR will perform just well as a Ferrari but Ferrari fans will never respect it. Same goes for HK. Coincidently perhaps the most retarded pistol I ever held in my hand was the P7, I’d rather shoot a Norinco knock off Tokarev.
Also, any sentence that starts with: “SAS/Delta/SEALS use this gun” can be finished with “and twenty other guns”.
Oh and Larry writes novels (epic novels, yes, I am a diehard fan) not comic books. :p
As far as your points about AK not being a suitable replacement for M4 and 7.62×39 not being better than 5.56 I never disagreed with in the first place. Most will probably agree that something between the two rounds – an intermediate round about 6.5mm would be preferable. But 5.56 was chosen decades ago and is here to stay. It is not perfect but it is not bad and certainly nowhere near as bad as some claim.
Finally when HK releases their first bullpup I will laugh my a$$ off when all the fanboys will declare bullpups being the only way to go while simultaneously sneering at all the cheap crap from IMI, Steyr and FN.
I have mostly stayed out of this, but I will add my two cents worth now. I have used Canadian military rifles a lot. I have also had the chance to use M14, SA80, Steyr AUG and a miriad of others. These days the only reason the average infantry soldier needs a rifle is for self defence. The infantry fight with machine guns, mortars, 25mm chain guns, TOW missiles, Javalin missiles, tanks and the artillery and aircraft that they can call in with their radios. Frankly, if an infantry soldier has to resort to shooting someone with a rifle, it’s because he screwed up. With any of the modern rifles its six of one half a dozen of the other. My personal preference is a .308 semi auto. M14 would do FAL would do. I quite like the AUG. It’s compact, simple to use and reliable. The 1.5 times optical sight on the one I used was great for target acquisition, and easier to use than iron sights. So it doesn’t have a sniper rifle trigger. Who cares, it’s not a sniper rifle. If I am part of a battle group or combat team and have all the other weapons at my disposal, almost any rifle is good enough. Hardly anyone on the battlefield is killed by rifle fire anyway.
Yeah, it had a Giselle drop in trigger kit, Vortex red dot and some kind of comp on the barrel instead of the birdcage.
I wouldn’t call it crisp or light but it was certainly better than the stock trigger.
It depends on who you are and who you will fight and how. In our time in most instances being able to initially carry and to then resupply larger amounts of ammunition is an advantage soldiers don’t want to give up. That’s the single biggest reason why the 5.56mmNATO cartridge replaced 7.62mmNATO.