So not only is the DHS stockpiling decades of war’s worth of ammunition – which means literally centuries of DHS usage – it’s doing so through front companies that come into being to collect the contract checks and presumably disappear once the checks have been written. The real questions here are who owns or controls Evian Group and what is his/their connection to the Democrat party?
Once the Dems get thrown out, there ought to be piles and piles of cheap non corrosive surplus ammo to buy!! If we all survive that long that is …
And while ago I opined that they were just wasting the money by using high quality duty ammunition for training.
http://phantomsoapbox.blogspot.com/2012/08/us-government-ammunition-controversy.html
However this explanation, that they are -stealing- the money by stockpiling ammunition that will never be used, or will be sold surplus in a couple of years… This has the ring of truth about it.
Also of note (aside from Federal enforcement agencies attached to population control under a presidential order of crisis management stock piling unseemly amounts of guns and ammo while the government is busy disarming the public) the ammo being stockpiled is hollow point hi-shock rounds – something outlawed by the Geneva convention. Ammo deemed to be too inhumane for war, seems to just right for use on civilians domestically.
If you are prone to paranoia where big government imperialism is concerned, Obama gives you plenty of justification for being so.
“…information produced and used by the DHS to train its personnel routinely equates conservative political ideology with domestic extremism…A study funded by the Department of Homeland Security characterizes Americans who are “suspicious of centralized federal authority,” and “reverent of individual liberty” as “extreme right-wing” terrorists…”
Don’t think the philosophy is that much different this side of the border.
When the Landowners were putting tractors onto the 4-lanes and putting haybales around gov’t buildings to draw attention to the legislated theft of our properties, we were put under intense scrutiny by the OPP. Our tractor convoys were video-taped, licence numbers recorded,
and officers from the Intelligence branch were assigned to monitor us and report on our activities.
It was as if they police were trying to pretend that this collection of farmers, grandparents, loggers and rural small-business-owners who objected to thir lands being stolen by government, constituted a dire threat to peace, order and good government.
2. To reduce the supply of ammunition available to ordinary Americans.
That makes no sense. Whenever someone buys ammunition, they send a signal to the market to produce more ammunition. It’s not like there’s a limit in how much ammunition can be produced.
Personally, I think,the Chicago gang realize they’ve annoyed enough people they,need to get ready for the thunder and lightning coming their way. Also its a good chance to steal from the taxpayers..
Occam – The laws of war are irrelevent to this discussion.
Go to any police department in Canada or the USA and you will find they are using hollow point ammo and have been for decades. There are some very good reasons for that, and they don’t have anything to do with cruelty or political plots.
As just one – consider that police use of firearms is often in crowded areas. One reason Ontario switched to hollow-points, it was said at the time, was that it reduced the chance of ‘shoot-through’. Full metal jacket bullets (as mandated in the Hague – not the Geneva – Conventions) are far more likely to go right through the intended target and clip an innocent bystander a block away.
The Geneva and Hague Conventions do not apply in domestic situations – you can do pretty much whatever you want to your own population – if you are willing to face the wrath of UN sanctions! /sarc off
“It was as if they police were trying to pretend that this collection of farmers, grandparents, loggers and rural small-business-owners who objected to thir lands being stolen by government, constituted a dire threat to peace, order and good government.”
Certainly seems that way Jamie. The imperialist mindset permeates the police and enforcement agencies (it is placed there by the governing cliques). The old saying that it is dangerous to be right when the government is wrong, is very apropos in modern Canada where the political class’s number one priority is the absolute continuity of status quo governing using assumed royal prerogative. “Peace order and good government” has, historically, disguised a great deal of injustice and tyranny. Recently it has become obvious how the governing class use the police function to enforce political agendas and policy rather than the rule of law. They do so in an absolutist authoritarian M.O.
I first became aware this continuity of imperialist control when acquaintences of mine attended a protest rally on parliament hill during the Chretien regime. The protest was held to demonstrate opposition to the pending Liberal gun control laws. Like the land owners’ protest in Ontario, and the anti-wheat board protests in the west, this one was populated by Moms and Pops, Grannies and Grandpas and their kids, from all backgrounds from farmer to doctors and lawyers Anglophone and Francophone alike. A real cross section of middle Canada.
What was the Chretien Government’s reaction to such mass dissent to their agenda to persecute civilian gun ownership? They placed multiple sniper teams on roof tops in plain view of the crowd. This was a graphic message from the statist-imperialists in the current Ottawa government, a reminder that power comes from the barrel of a gun, and they were going to take ours while they kept theirs. This incident alone changed my opinion of government.
“libido dominandi” – the lust to dominate, the trait of imperialism in governments and tyrants – cited as one of the original sins of mankind by St. Augustine in commenting on the nature of governing in his era. This “sin” still dominates the venal soul of the ruling class in our time. It is why the American founders placed the second amendment in the US constitution and why Sir William Blackstone enumerated “They shall have arms for their defense” as one of the auxiliary rights of British citizens. Beware of any government or politician who does not believe this right is as relevant today as it was in eons past.
It would be interesting to know if these massive contracts have
bogged down production of all other civilian ammunition and if
there are puzzling disputes about quality issues and nonpayment.
The Mexican cartels called… they need an ammo order to go with the free guns Eric Holder shipped over last year.
Manufacturing capacity for civilian purchase resulting in shortages is a very real concern. Many might remember the difficulty in getting .223 ammo during the peak of the gulf war and Iraq. Most being made was going to DoD. For a time gun shops couldn’t keep it in stock. Helped the popularity of the Norc SKS at the time as there was a ton of cheap ammo for it coming out of cold war arsenals.
Timmy:
I have been around firearms and cops for a long time and the only purpose for hollow point hi-shock ammo is stopping power to inflict abrupt fatality or fatal wounding – this is the purpose in hunting ammo and certainly the purpose in handgun utility.
Prior to this Police used low power solid lead round points in the mindset of non fatal wounding and minimal post impact(spent projectile) fatalities – same for shotgun rounds in an urban setting – of course this was in the day and age where both police and their superiors considered the civilian police function to be a “Public service” in the vein of Sir Robert Peel’s principles, and not some occupying para-military force imposing “policy” for an ubermenchen ruling cabal. The use of a fire arm in those days was an act of last resort to imminent lethal attack on a peace officer – unlike these days where militarized police forces are pulling a gun and spraying urban areas with high capacity 9 and 10 MM rounds from military styled auto loading small arms. Then there is the adaptation of torture compliance via taser currently in vogue with the police function – but that’s a matter for another discussion entirely.
I don’t buy the “public safety” argument used to dismiss the use of high fatality ammo by police – same as I don’t buy the argument that the 17 shot Glocks and High-cap H-K MP5s, single fire C7s and Ruger auto-loading carbines replacing the Smith and Wesson .38 K frame revolver and the Winchester model 12 pump action shot gun in the police arsenal was a matter of “public safety”. Nor do I believe the excuses given for police wearing masks, ballistic vests, unmarked black combat gear and using military tactics in a civilian setting is for “our safety”.
All objective evidence points to this being a turning point in the nature of the police function. From accountable public servants to politically immune public controllers, from civilian peace officers to militarized policy enforcers, from enforcers of the rule of law to a politicized occupation force.
I’ve seen to much first hand evidence to conclude anything else.
The most likely reason, as I go back and read the various sources of the article and its derivatives, is none of the listed reasons. My conspiracy theory? – the forced removal of citizen-owned firearms in the US. This venture will require an sustained high profile assault because there will be armed resistance to the action, and it is anticipated that it will achieve the effect and intensity of civil war at times before, before its over.
“2. To reduce the supply of ammunition available to ordinary Americans.
That makes no sense. Whenever someone buys ammunition, they send a signal to the market to produce more ammunition. It’s not like there’s a limit in how much ammunition can be produced.”
Posted by: rabbit
rabbit, what happens in that market when the government has enough stockpiled to simply stop buying for a long time? Who will be left in the Obama economy to buy how much ammunition? Then how many suppliers shut down because demand crashes? Which ones will be allowed to survive by going on a retainer to supply the government exclusively?
I was at those rallies Occam, as I recall, the top of the buildings in the area swarmed with those idiots… my buddy & I both brought binoculars to the 4ally,and played the game of counting the shooters… made me proud to be a Canadian that day I’ll tell you..
rabbit on February 10, 2013 11:54 AM
2. To reduce the supply of ammunition available to ordinary Americans.
“That makes no sense. Whenever someone buys ammunition, they send a signal to the market to produce more ammunition. It’s not like there’s a limit in how much ammunition can be produced.”
Yeah…..that makes no sense but keep in mind that the donkeys are blissfully unaware of the Laffer Curve.
Actually I am a student of Sun Tsu….
It is best to reflect on the projected Police mindset….As Occam has noted it has evolved from a public servant statis to being a ruler….
DHS and other alphabet agencies, regarding what we deem normal political views as right wing extremism, is the simple result of the TEA Party phenomina.
Left wingers realize they lack the ability/backing to deploy in the numbers that the TEA Party has on numerous occasions. Left wingers tremble in fear of a movement that is so disciplined that it picks up the garbage.
The biased MSM harps on the “powerful gun-lobby”, and styles the NRA as a firearms industry “lobby”. They omit the “anti-gun lobby is much better funded and entrenched in the halls of power.
The feature of the NRA, that the left fears, the membership…a grass-roots setup and not a minority funded astro-turf…has genuine political muscle.
The left has absolute control of the MSM, Academia, the bureaucracy, and a vast influence on the judiciary but lacks anything remotely like the NRA. The fact that the Republicans do not control the NRA is irrelevant….the left’s problem is that they don’t (control the NRA).
TheTooner:
Are you suggesting that the Obama administration deliberately tried to bring the ammo market to its knees by first inflating and then sharply deflating demand?
That seems both unworkable and unlikely. The ammunition market is probably far too robust to be seriously harmed in that way.
my father, brother and i were both at that rally in Ottawa. the snipers on the roofs just proved how afraid the polis are of the citizens. They are terrified that we might someday just ignore them and say “go away”
Evian Group, Inc. List of officers: Grace Hodge is also the agent for the corporation:
Treasurer – ROMAN THARP
Secretary – SCOTT ROGAN
President – LARAYNE WHITEHEAD
Director – GRACE HODGE
The Phantom >
“…This has the ring of truth about it.”
So does a 16 Trillion dollar debt ceiling, hundreds of trillions in unfunded liabilities, coupled with an unrecoverable economy, and millions of hungry entitled mouths to feed.
Just say’n, besides stealing they may actually know something that the average person isn’t privy too.
rabbit, I’m asking because I don’t know. I do see how these ammunition purchases could be used to funnel public funds to friends and supporters of the ruling party now and leave the masses to pay the debt to China later. As one of the ruling cabal said, “Don’t let a crisis go to waste,” so I am wondering if they are trying to ice that cake somehow.
I cast a sceptical eye on most conspiracy theory but years ago I read a couple of books on the Spanish civil war and they left me with a lifelong repulsion for left-leaning government and their more, shall I say, enthusiastic supporters. I’ve seen nothing in the intervening years to make me change my mind.
Maybe my sense of alarm is too highly strung from visiting too many right-wing web sites but frankly America is starting to look a little shakey economicay, socially and demographically. Obama’s executive memo authorizing the assassination of American citizens, his ‘kill list’, and talk of a civilian defence force rivalling the military, are cause for concern. And I’m sure the purchase of ‘billions’ of rounds of ammo for DHS isn’t to defend America from a foreign invasion.
It makes sense to me that the government is trying to control the ammunition market by making it more expensive and less available to civilians. They know they can’t control firearms but they can control ammo to some perceived extent by manipulating the market.
It need not make sense. All it has to do is create chaos, and funnel some money into the pockets of favored cronies. Win, win.
Q. Has anyone actually seen the ammunition before/after it has been delivered?
The reasoning for me asking that question, is possibly this is actually fake purchases made to funnel money to Dem. front organizations, or if the ammo actually exists, the ammo is actually going to a third party. (Syria?, Egypt?)
Maybe Obama is about to soon make that type of ammunition illegal or hard to produce/ purchase?
and since he purchased it all, the people will have none?
I don’t know much about firearms, I don’t even own one, but obviously something weird is going on
ok that does not answer all questions,
Maybe Obama knows that once he imposes more of his crazy ideas there will be civil unrest and possibly a civil war?
Why would they need that much ammunition?
this is quite bizarre…
Nothing is ever what it appears to be.
However, if the inability to find the rogue LA ‘former’ police officer who is killing and hiding is any example of how the government handles this ….. The militias who have formed all over the US to defend the constitution, should do very well …..
In short, if the private sector goes to war against the public sector, who would you put your money on?
Ok … I’ll play conspiracy nonsense for 100 alex…..
What do you do before something you want lots of is no longr going to be made?
Well, of course. When Obama and his cronies run out of bankster money and the regular army begin to desert or mutiny, the Black Panthers and other “community” militias and bitter-ender leftist gangs will need munitions to have any hope of restoring Obama or his heir to the throne (however small), or of simply making the job of restoring order and British liberty in North America much harder than it absolutely has to be. When the time comes they know that there won’t be any wealthy emigrés willing to finance and arm their cause, like the IRA had.
So they’re building munitions dumps now so that if and when things go pear-shaped, DHS men can pass the guns on to the leftist paramilitaries, and the leftists are sorted to hold out for a generation or more.
Put down armed rebellion by patriots? Rubbish. That’s what the regular army is for—or will be while Fed-confetti is good for anything but a laugh.
Yup, I’ve thought about all this “libido dominandi” stuff – the lust to dominate, the trait of imperialism in governments and tyrants , but I don’t think that’s it – at least not here in Canada.
Tell you why.
It’s far too selective. I mean, they’re only going after the easy stuff. It’s easy to look tough in front of peaceful folks like farmers and small business people – a lot easier than looking tough at Caledonia. It’s easy to fine people $700.00 bucks for speeding, and hammer the young fellows who drag race. It’s not so easy to deal with imams preaching jihad in Toronto. So, on the Canadian side of the border I think it’s just political suckholing and posturing.
Almost 40 years ago a wise old cop told me how to respond to a bar fight: take your time, finish your coffee, and get there when it’s all over – then arrest the loser…he’s easier to handle.
He was joking, of course. But that’s actually the way it’s played out now. Put on a show…pretend you have a grip on things…and if you have to get tough…pick on the easy guys.
Obumbles is just stocking up for when he goes skeet shooting:-)))
What size is this ammo? Might be worth it to buy rifles and guns that use that particular caliber. You know darned well if the government is securing that much ammo then a lot of it will end up on Kijiji.
Texas, it appears to be largely 40 cal hollow point, and 62 grain 223/5.56… the standard LE handgun cartridge for the us enforcement agencies and rifle ammo…
Sounds like the market is going to be flooded with cheap ammo soon,these same agencies can not seem to warehouse any other commodity without massive spoilage aka theft.
Usually the lower echelon types making sure they get their cut, imitating their leaders and all is good in the liberal loony land.
Who is the Evian Group?
Can you say New World Order?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Evian_Group_at_IMD
Great post I saw on why the gov . may be buying this-
” George Turner
February 8, 2013, 12:23 pm | Reply
Ammunition has some wonderful accounting properties. It costs a lot of money to purchase, can be resold with trivial ease and viturally no traceability, and it’s an “anonymously consumable” item. The shortfall between the amount purchased and current inventory is whatever was expended on the shooting range, with no way to verify the consumption.
It can be traded to other agencies and departments who have shortfalls, sold on the international black market, sold on the above-board international market, or sold back to wholesalers with a wink and a nod.”
In other words, buying the ammo allows for a slush fund whose funds can’t be traced and may be unaccountable under gov accounting rules.