Let’s check in tonight at how ABC News is covering the presidential election:
Main story: Good King Obama is focused on helping the people, not dwelling on politics.
Second story: Bad, Evil Mitt Romney & Paul Ryan wanted to hurt the people by cutting funding to FEMA.
Third story: Barack Obama and Mitt Romney are now tied in the latest poll.
Based on this, dear peasants, who are you going to vote for?!?
“What the hell is Governor Christie doing? Giving Obama kudos for the handling of the storm. Geezuss.”
Gee, imagine that: actual governance requires more than just hyper-partisan, Us-vs-Them politicking. Apparently,still such a foreign concept around here.
Davenport, are you that much of a troll that you can’t look up facts or do any critical thinking on your own?
Of course you are….
Davenport said: “Are you really posing that as a yes/no question, as though one can only think either that state governments can be trusted with disaster management, or that they can’t?”
Absolutely Davenport. The question is, can state (or provincial!) governments be trusted by us, the residents, with disaster relief? Or not? More fundamentally, is one level of government “better” at disaster relief than another?
That is indeed a yes/no question. “Nuance, complexity, elaboration, and so forth” is just another way of saying that you don’t want to answer the simple yes or no because you’re afraid I’ll stomp on you.
Then you said: “exactly what does Romney (or you, for that matter) mean when he says, when asked about the role and funding of FEMA, that it’s “the right direction” to “take something from the federal government and send it back to the states”?
What Romney means and what I mean is that taking -anything- away from the US federal government, at this time in history, is a good idea. Because if it can be done at all by anybody else, it will be done -better- by -anybody- else. Also cheaper, and with much less erosion of the average citizen’s freedom.
Then you said this awesome howler, Davenport: “…or raising the idea that disaster management should be privatized…”
Privatized?!!! [shudder] The horror!!!
You’ve never seen Thunderbirds have you? You poor stunted thing.
But Davenport, on a more serious note, who is it do you think laboring mightily tonight to fix the electricity all up and down the Eastern seaboard? Who’s pumping out those tunnels? Plowing crap off the roads? Cutting up dead trees? Getting that bloody great busted crane off the side of that condo in downtown NYC?
Hint, it isn’t FEMA. In fact, FEMA is mostly p1ssing them off and getting in their way tonight.
Posted by: Fearless Leader at October 30, 2012 6:58 AM
No I was drunk posting, sorry.
Typing from the “wrong orifice”
apologies.
dwright
i live in New Jersey 5 miles east of Philly. My house pretty much unscathed cept a little water in basement. Never lost power. Massive oak just missed 2 houses bout a block away though. It was a beautiful oak i used to ride by everyday and admire. I’ll miss it.
“The question is, can state (or provincial!) governments be trusted by us, the residents, with disaster relief? Or not? More fundamentally, is one level of government “better” at disaster relief than another?”
One wonders, then, how your letter of protest to PM Harper, regarding his government’s continued commitment to the Federal Emergency Response Plan is coming along? Or maybe you are waiting for the day when it’s a Liberal or NDP government running Ottawa before you decide that this is suddenly an issue for you.
“”That is indeed a yes/no question. Nuance, complexity, elaboration, and so forth” is just another way of saying that you don’t want to answer the simple yes or no because you’re afraid I’ll stomp on you.”
Sure, Phantom, if you say so. Must be nice, being so deluded and simple-minded as to be able to reduce everything in the world down to yes/no scenarios.
“Privatized?!!! [shudder] The horror!!!…But Davenport, on a more serious note, who is it do you think laboring mightily tonight to fix the electricity all up and down the Eastern seaboard? Who’s pumping out those tunnels? Plowing crap off the roads? Cutting up dead trees? Getting that bloody great busted crane off the side of that condo in downtown NYC? Hint, it isn’t FEMA. In fact, FEMA is mostly p1ssing them off and getting in their way tonight.”
Fallen electrical wires and the crane are corporate property, so on those fronts, presumably it’s private sector workers who are labouring mightily tonight. No doubt you feel at this point that you’ve cleverly won some kind of point here.
Alas, as usual, simply by writing you manage to undermine your own argument. The flooded tunnels, after all, are public property, as are the roads strewn with fallen tree limbs. Which means that, on these and other fronts, it’s public sector workers labouring mightily tonight. And whom do you think is helping to pay for those public infrastructure repairs, and the overtime to all of the cops, firefighters, paramedics, transit system repair teams, road maintenance crews? Hint: it’s FEMA.
But that’s not even the issue. Romney wasn’t taking about privatizing front-line repair and reconstruction services, which FEMA isn’t even in the business of offering; he was talking about the privatization of disaster relief management (e.g., coordination support for state and local gov’t responses, cost reimbursement and other forms of financial assistance for individuals, businesses, and municipalities, etc., which FEMA is in the business of offering.
Are you honestly suggesting that even the responsibility for disaster relief management and coordination is something best left in the hands of a private company, that the persons ultimately in charge isn’t elected officials accountable to the public but rather CEOs and Directors accountable to their shareholders?
Also, isn’t it curious that not only are currently affected state (including NJ, with your man Christie at the helm!) not calling for FEMA to stay away, but in fact are welcoming FEMA and other federal agency assistance (indeed, requesting it, since FEMA only steps up to help when asked to do so by the states) and praising the coordinated responses so far.
Care to take a stab at explaining all that away, Phantom?
Davenport I think you will find that private construction contractors are doing -all- the work of infrastructure repair, with city/county/state workers doing the strong backs/weak minds clearing up. Aided by machines rented from private industry.
You asked if a private company can be trusted with disaster relief, well they’re the ones doing it.
My question to you remains.
States already handle all emergencies, FEMA just pays the money as you say. And a very expensive service it is too. Can states not be trusted with the money too?
Phantom, Davenport isn’t interested in answers. Just being a troll.
Old Couch…I do nothing but insurance work on the biggest asset most folks will ever own…their homes.
We watertight their roofs and pretty up their walls after they’ve been damaged…by the square foot…not the hour.
My condolences to the families of those killed in this Storm. Lets face it though folks, this is the best break Obama has had from the Benghazi treason. It will allow the media to bury it till its 50 feet under ground even after the election till the next National scandal.
“You asked if a private company can be trusted with disaster relief…”
No, I didn’t. You did, rhetorically, by misreading what Romney said, and then you answered your own question, and in doing so, felt like you won a debate point or something.
What I asked was, per the Romney primary debate transcript, whether it’s a good idea for disaster relief MANAGEMENT to be privatized.
“My question to you remains.”
Fine, since you insist. Yes, I think states can be trusted with the money. Happy?
I also think that the Feds can be trusted with the money, too. I also think that, as far as I can tell, no state is even asking for the money, which renders your original question moot. I also think that the states often don’t necessarily WANT the money, but rather like knowing that they can tap into a large, external resource when exceptional circumstances require, since they are aware of what should be an obvious fact: that when a state is hit by a major disaster, its own disaster relief systems, resources, and staff are among the things that can get hit, and an outside support can be of help for filling in the gaps in these situations. I also think, as has been demonstrated just this week, that the states and the Feds can work well together to coordinate an disaster relief response (so does Gov Christie, whom I understand will be touring affected NJ areas with the President some time soon).
Now, any interest in answering some questions of mine?
1) Do you think disaster management and coordination should be privatized?
2) Since no state appears to be asking for FEMA’s budget and mandate to be transferred to the state level, and since recent events suggest that at least some states prefer the existence of FEMA, do you still insist that FEMA should be closed and its budget and resources transferred to the states (which, it appears, would be against the will of the states themselves)?
Davenport:
1)No. No pressing reason to do it -at this time-, as corruption has not yet completely crippled the existing structures. Please note I’ve said “not yet”. There is however a pressing reason to put it off on the states, and that reason is FEMA. They suck. It costs them ten dollars to pay out one dollar in relief effort. That’s not a good return on investment, and that’s what Romney is talking about.
2) Yes. FEMA is, as you say, a management structure. They don’t have super special equipment and people sitting around waiting for something to happen. They -rent- it. When you have even Obama coming out and saying he’s “going to cut through the red tape and make things happen” that would be a sign that the management structure is hindering rather than helping.
The basic fact of the matter is that the USA has too much government. Its too big, too inefficient, too costly, too crooked. So it has to be reduced. The way you do that is by getting busy and doing it. You cut anything that can be cut and let the locals do it. Because they are the ones that will be doing it in any case. All FEMA does is look over their shoulder and tell them to put their hard hats on at inconvenient moments.
In answer to your snark on Christie, he’s a politician. He’s doing a We Really Care photo-op with Barry. The pair of them will descend on some flood-blasted plain of tears with their entourages, all work will stop for HOURS while security locks the place down, photos will be taken of Barry scooping up roofing shingles or handing out water (in plastic bottles!), then they will go away and work will resume. Net negative contribution to the effort.
Christie is praising the fact that Barry didn’t let the whole thing slide like he did last time there was a huge flood and FEMA dropped the ball. Do you remember the last major US flood Davenport? Didn’t get handled well at all, barely was mentioned in the news.
At 6:27pm above you asked: “Seriously, do you really hate government so much that you are blind to the basic logic behind this arrangement? Or perhaps it’s pride or some other ego defense mechanism that’s behind your intransigence?”
Possibly Davenport, possibly. Or POSSIBLY I know something you don’t know, since you’re clearly a wet-behind-the-ears intellectual and I’m an Old Guy with scars. Before you start swinging you should think a bit.
The arrangement you praise, “…a body with a national scope — i.e., a federal body — whose primary purpose is to direct disaster relief support…” is just another instance of central planning, central storage, central control. Its an inefficient, wasteful, expensive way to do business. It also collects corruption the way a ship collects barnacles. Anytime you make a big pile of money people with sticky fingers come around.
Centralized command and control is an old idea that became fully realized in the vast European armies of the 19th century, culminating with the disaster that was WWI. Its a stupid idea and it never works. Even wars are not fought according to that plan these days. Please see articles about distributed battle nets on Google.
Networks of distributed decision making are always less corrupt and more efficient. Compare the average government issue fire department with the companies that put out oil well fires, just as an example of the principle. Safety Boss vs. Toronto Fire Dept. Oil well fires are handled the way they are because its the cheapest, best way to do it currently available.
The ultimate distributed system is private enterprise and private philanthropy, backed by the internet and the cell phone network. A phone call distributed by a trusted philanthropy will have hundreds of people and millions of dollars available to handle something before the FEMA seat polishers can get their trucks out of the barn.
Incidentally, centralization is just as stupid an idea when Mr. Harper does it. He does it less than people like Count Iggula, Dionkey and the odious Mulcair would, so I like him better. If somebody comes along that will do it less than Harper, I will support the new guy.
Questions, comments?
“The arrangement you praise, “…a body with a national scope — i.e., a federal body — whose primary purpose is to direct disaster relief support…” is just another instance of central planning, central storage, central control. Its an inefficient, wasteful, expensive way to do business.”
I agree that centralized planning, storage, and control makes no sense for emergency management. So does FEMA, which is why they’re don’t operate according to that model. Why, did you think everything was run out of an office park in some DC suburb?
If efficiency is really your big concern, then what makes you think that 50 separate state-level FEMA’s would be a more efficient model? And no, FEMA’s role couldn’t be folded into existing state-level emergency management systems, since FEMA exists precisely to assist states when existing state systems are overwhelmed. FEMA plays a back-up function, which means devolving it to the state level would mean creating 50 separate, duplicated back-ups. Not very efficient at all.
Especially when you factor in two key characteristics of disasters: one, they’re infrequent; two, they’re unpredictable. If you’re going to create a back-up system as a bulwark against infrequent and unpredictable but devastating and extremely resource-intensive events, and you’re talking about the fourth largest country in the world by area, then it doesn’t make any sense — from a cost point of view, or from an efficiency one, or a logistical one — to create 50 back-up systems for 50 frontline systems across 50 jurisdictional lines. Precisely because disasters are infrequent and unpredictable, at any given moment, probably 49 or so of those backups will be sitting idle, while maybe one or two will be dealing with some calamity that actually requires triple or more of the resources at their disposal (but too bad, because somebody thought it was a good idea to divvy up the pool of backup resources to all 50 states, meaning everyone has equally not enough when needed, and there’s nobody to coordinate bringing in extra resources from neighboring states, because everybody in the one or two affected states are too busy dealing with the fallout from the calamity…). Again, not very efficient at all.
Instead, it makes far better sense to set up 50 frontline systems, reflecting state jurisdictions, and then — again, in full collaboration with and blessing of the states — set up regional hubs across the country (say, 10 or so) that are each localized enough to be able to respond rapidly to any nearby state’s call for help while also ensuring that these backup, regionally positioned resources are sufficently pooled and concentrated — because they’re distributed only across 10 sites rather than 50 — that they can make a immediate, targeted, and meaningful impact if and when they are activated.
Which is more or less how FEMA is set up.
“Compare the average government issue fire department with the companies that put out oil well fires, just as an example of the principle. Safety Boss vs. Toronto Fire Dept”
Safety Boss — do you mean the well control company that has a Calgary address for its HQ but a distributed network of regional, rapid response hubs scattered across AB and BC, the guys who are called in when local firefighters encounter a blaze that’s beyond their capacity to handle?
Davenport said: “Safety Boss — do you mean the well control company that has a Calgary address for its HQ but a distributed network of regional, rapid response hubs scattered across AB and BC, the guys who are called in when local firefighters encounter a blaze that’s beyond their capacity to handle?”
Yeah. The -private- company that puts out fires for -money- all over the world. Which according to you Davenport is impossible and crazy. The guy who owns it is stinking rich too.
You said: “If efficiency is really your big concern, then what makes you think that 50 separate state-level FEMA’s would be a more efficient model? And no, FEMA’s role couldn’t be folded into existing state-level emergency management systems, since FEMA exists precisely to assist states when existing state systems are overwhelmed. FEMA plays a back-up function, which means devolving it to the state level would mean creating 50 separate, duplicated back-ups. Not very efficient at all.”
FEMA doesn’t have physical resources and manpower they move to a site. They “manage” things. Which means they pay money the state may not have on hand to hire more contractors. If the state had the money FEMA would be superfluous. That would mean 7500 snivel servants off the federal payroll, huge cost savings passed on to the taxpayers.
Its like the Dept. of Education. Its a duplication of state services and it should be shuttered. Its also a threat to liberty.
Did you know its now legal for the DEA to sneak on to American’s private property and plant hidden cameras without a warrant? Yep. Just be aware that’s -nothing- compared to what FEMA can do if they want. They can do pretty much anything at all in an emergency, including chuck people in jail or shoot ’em, confiscate any property from anybody, draft individuals into service, the works.
Also, did you know FEMA has at least one SWAT team? They do. And so does the Dept. of Education. Both organizations have been using their SWAT teams too. Quite a bit.
Threats to liberty, huge costs, duplication of services, corruption, bureaucratic inefficiency. These are a few of my least favorite things. Disasters got dealt with before FEMA, no reason to think they won’t be dealt with after FEMA.
Here’s a few things I wrote that you might find interesting:
phantomsoapbox.blogspot.ca/2012/10/us-cops-can-now-put-cameras-on-your.html
phantomsoapbox.blogspot.ca/2012/10/why-am-i-against-big-government.html
phantomsoapbox.blogspot.ca/2012/08/us-government-ammunition-controversy.html
Just put FEMA in place of the welfare thing and I think you’ll get what I’m driving at. Maybe not agree, but one thing at a time eh?
“Yeah. The -private- company that puts out fires for -money- all over the world. Which according to you Davenport is impossible and crazy.”
Sigh…no, never said that. Seems you’ve yet again confused FRONTLINE services with disaster MANAGEMENT.
So, you’re not great with reading comprehension; let’s see how you do with basic logic…
“That would mean 7500 snivel servants off the federal payroll, huge cost savings passed on to the taxpayers.”
Actually, you forgot that having downloaded FEMA’s role to the states, what you’ve now created is 50 state-level FEMAs, which means probably at least double the number of (now state-level) “snivel servants”, which means even more cost to taxpayers.
OK, basic logic isn’t your game. How about math…?
“They “manage” things. Which means they pay money the state may not have on hand to hire more contractors. If the state had the money FEMA would be superfluous.”
First of all, hiring contractors isn’t all they do, but since you brought up the issue of money, OK, let’s go there. You want to divvy up FEMA’s budget among the states and be done with it. Let’s see how the numbers might add up.
FEMA currently has about $3.6 billion in flood relief funds remaining for this year. About 20% of the US population was affected by Sandy. Let’s keep things simple and assume that, in your alternate reality, FEMA’s budget was perfectly apportioned to the states by population. So, now the affected states have about $720 million extra in their flood relief funds this year, thanks to the shuttered FEMA.
Except Sandy’s pricetag is expected in the tens of billions, with early flood relief assistance estimates pegged in the $3 billion range. Gosh, it looks like the affected states are still $2.28 billion short of what they need.
Hey, maybe they could ask the feds for assistance. If only there was some kind of mechanism at the federal level to provide emergency management assistance to the states when the states need it and ask for it. But what could we call such a mechanism, Phantom, what indeed?
Jeez Davenport, what part of “duplication of services” didn’t you get?
“Actually, you forgot that having downloaded FEMA’s role to the states, what you’ve now created is 50 state-level FEMAs, which means probably at least double the number of (now state-level) “snivel servants”, which means even more cost to taxpayers.”
No, because all 57 states ALREADY HAVE disaster planning and management, in place, funded and working. FEMA is an unnecessary and counterproductive extra layer.
By the way, have you seen today’s headlines about fuel shortages? Nobody can pump fuel because the power is out. The power is out because trees fell on the power lines. The trees fell on the lines because New York and New Jersey DON’T TRIM THE TREES!!!
You’ll love this last bit here. The reason they don’t trim the trees anymore is -greenies-. They used to trim the trees, but the greenies made them stop.
Also, gas stations don’t have power because none of them have emergency generators on-site. The gas is there, they just can’t pump it or ring up the cash register. Same exact thing happens every time there’s a snowstorm, flood, windstorm, ice storm. Happened in 1993 when I lived in New York, a medium-weight snowstorm I’d have shrugged off in Ontario shut the whole place down for three days.
You want to know -why- gas stations don’t have generators? REGULATIONS, that’s why. The regulations covering emergency generators in New York are so onerous and make it so expensive that only the really big ones on the super highways have them.
Oh, and guess why neighboring states aren’t shipping fuel to NY and NJ today. Go ahead, guess. That’s right, regulations. NY has a unique fuel formulation it requires for retail sale, greenies again.
Tell me again how awesome FEMA is, hmm?
“First of all, hiring contractors isn’t all they do…” Davenport, they don’t even do that. They goggle the elbow of the state/city employee guy who’s doing it, and make him fill out mucho paperwork to get the federal money. Which is stupid, because its an EMERGENCY and more paperwork is really not helping.
“If only there was some kind of mechanism at the federal level to provide emergency management assistance to the states when the states need it and ask for it. But what could we call such a mechanism, Phantom, what indeed?”
How about an emergency appropriations bill? Or a loan from the Fed? Or gee, how did it used to get done before there was FEMA? Whatever did they do before Jimmy Carter created the farce that is FEMA?
You know what they did Davenport? They cut taxes and tariffs for a while to let people get back on their feet, and the people got busy and did it themselves. It worked better. (Really, look it up. Wiki is your friend.)
Will NY and NJ give the flooded out businesses even a tiny break on their tax and regulation this year to help cope? Even a tiny break on sales tax or gas tax? Not a chance in hell. No one is even talking about it.
When half your income goes for taxes and regulations, its hard for individuals and businesses to keep excess inventory and savings around for a rainy day. Its hard to justify the expense of emergency equipment for small businesses. So everything is done on the just-in-time method, and nobody has supplies for more than two or three days on hand. Which works just fine, until there’s a flood or a snowstorm. Having a mega Big Brother operation like FEMA can’t make up the shortfall.
What you’re arguing is that FEMA, a hierarchical, centrally planned and controlled institution is the same as a wide mesh network of cooperative individuals because FEMA has satellite nodes in different geographical locations. That’s a silly argument Davenport.
You should do some reading in mammalian neurology, neural networks and motor control. Its where these ideas come from. There’s also some very interesting work being done with traffic lights under peer-to-peer mesh network control instead of central control, something called “Bacterial Foraging Optimization” algorithms, and plenty of work on swarm intelligence.
You should also talk to ET about this, she’s the mega-expert.
Human society is the ultimate peer mesh/swarm intelligence. We should learn to use the power of the individual instead of bottling it up with 19th Century ideologies.
Think Davenport. Don’t just react.
Quoth Davenport: “… does your current credit card limit have any direct bearing on how much of a balance you currently carry on it from month to month?”
Allow P.J. O’Rourke from back when he was still good (and ripping off Milton Friedman) to explain to you why that’s a stupid analogy.
There are four ways of speding money:
“1. You spend your money on yourself. You’re motivated to get the thing you want most at the best price. This is the way middle-aged men haggle with Porsche dealers.
2. You spend your money on other people. You still want a bargain, but you’re less interested in pleasing the recipient of your largesse. This is why children get underwear at Christmas.
3. You spend other people’s money on yourself. You get what you want but price no longer matters. The second wives who ride around with the middle-aged men in the Porsches do this kind of spending at Neiman Marcus.
4. You spend other people’s money on other people. And in this case, who gives a sh*t?”
Personal credit card spending = #1
Government spending… well, you figure it out.
It seems Davenport has skived off, not wishing to discuss things further now that FEMA has dropped the ball in NY and NJ, as predicted.
http://phantomsoapbox.blogspot.ca/2012/11/disaster-recovery-socialist-style.html