For many generations now high school guidance counselors and the media have been telling students that one absolutely key ingredient for success is to go onto college or university. But is this good advice for everyone? When does it make sense and when does it not?
The NY Times recently published a fairly detailed article on the subject. Michael Graham dedicated a lot of time to it on on his radio program earlier today.
If a niece or a nephew in Grade 12 approached you, seeking your advice, what would you tell them? More specifically, what criteria would you use to decide what advice to give them?
lol…a degree in sociology. What did she expect?
If you’re not studying science, engineering, mathematics, finance or medicine (and MAYBE law) – forget about it. The world is awash in do-gooder worthies with useless qualifications that will never rise much above minimum wage.
I already told my kids that if they’re not taking hard sciences (Chemistry, Physics, Math, Engineering etc.), I’m not paying.
I would kick my kid out of the house if they enrolled in some sociology/history/english program.
I know at least half a dozen kids who recently graduated from University in non-science disciplines,and are working as waiters, clerks,or in government make-work projects.
Every young person I know who took pre-trades training found a job within a few weeks after grad, and they don’t have a big student loan to pay off.
My advice to a young person who’s finished high school,if you have any interest or aptitude for the trades, go in that direction,the Country needs skilled trades a lot more than Arts grads.
They’ve all been lied to and they will continue to be lied to by the educational system in order to keep those little suckers (and their parents) paying those huge tuitions to keep their professors employed.
It’s all going to start caving in once enough of these little socialists in waiting get the message that we don’t need them anymore … Trudeaupia is over.
The world needs engineers, plumbers, electricians, doctors, nurses, lab people … machinists etc … you know … people who actually know how to do something useful.
Trudeaupia is over.
Trudeaupia is over.
Trudeaupia is over.
Trudeaupia is over.
Trudeaupia is over.
Trudeaupia is over.
Reality is upon us kiddies. Feeling the sting?
How do you get a University of Regina graduate off of your front step?
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Pay em for the pizza!
Given the high cost and currently less than stellar graduate opportunities, university may not provide a positive return on the investment of time and money.
This is compounded by students pursuing degrees in fields with weak job prospects for graduates in general – philosophy, gender studies, etc.
Unless one has unlimited funds, I suggest students focus their time on education that will provide a profitable career path. That may require taking a couple of years off school to determine the right path to take. It may require trade schools or apprenticeships as there is a lack of hands-on workers out there.
I also expect to see more businesses getting into the education game directly. From experience, universities are not producing high end graduates in finance and accounting. It is more cost effective for companies to bring in new staff and train them directly. This may be through internal training programs that are highly focussed or in partnerships with private educational facilities.
For more thoughts on education and personal wealth management issues, please visit http://www.personalwm.com.
Speaking as a UofR computer science grad, I do a lot more than deliver pizza, as are all of the friends that I made that I still have contact with. Mind you, they were all in sciences, engineering, or math as well, which helps to reinforce the original point…
Friends don’t let friends major in arts!
I’ll wager if 8/10 are moving home then only 2/10 are studying sciences. It might be smart to live with your parents a while to get out of debt faster. I know I wish I had. But I got a job so I couldn’t. This mooching thing really is a catch 22. Got a job? No mooching! Not mooching? Must have a job! (Get it? Like the old “no experience, no job” lines?) hehe I’m funny at night. I’ll be back in a few weeks. Cheerio!
DUUUUHHHH!!!
A political science degree ? lol with a high pitched lispy voice and a baby blue t-shirt with a hippie peace sign on it ? LOL . Gimmie a break go work construction learn some sorto f trade and build your own construction empire!!!! LOL.
I don’t get it i went to college for a trade and i had a job beforei was done school and have never not even once felt worried about my job ,my career nothing as a matter fo fact while most were laid off during the “recession” i was working overtime and doing some side work as well .
My brotheri s a red seal electricion did not even feel a slight blip in his job career any of it …not even a buit again he was working overtime alot of the times? Hmmmm go figure ..people are starting to figure it out …..if you with your degree cannot provide a legitiametly usefull product or service you are a leech a parasite sucking the life blood out of any company that hires you ….the key word here is legitemit .
I was watching dragons den and this chick had the nerve to go onto the show ask for a million dollars for being a life coach for companies lol she goes in once a week and provides a moral boost by giving speeches to office staff …..they verbally ripped her apart up one side and down the other and this woman was hot very hot …but nothing is a pretty as money to the dragons so they cut her down a few notches lol i loved it . she got all teary eyed like she didn’t expect it …lol. anyway . yup that’s how it is.
I went back to trade school last year at the age of 41, it cost $5000 that I borrowed from a bank. I now make close to $60000 and I am only a first year apprentice. I expect to double that in 5 years as a journeyman. Why would anyone borrow $50000 to go to school for 5 years to make $35000 a year and have ten times my debt.
not to mention the corruption on campuses , such as the lefty indoctrination , the boozing drunken debotchury , the mass orgies , all of it , it is just retarded. if you thing i am lying go to a porn site and type in college or university orgies and you will see young women getting it on with lot’s of men and vice versa . It is just despicable to think that some parent out there is bragging about how well her daughter is doing in university , when in reality she is being done well !!! sick to late in my opinion we have fallen through the rabbit hole sorry call me negative but just brutal. Also i have a cousin who told me that there are sleeper groups of people who are trying to make it a bad thing for a white girl to date a white boy ..like they are tring to make so it is looked down upon like back in the fifties and sixties with the blacks. Nut’s pure nut’s.
-pick a job that cannot be outsourced, ones that require a flesh and blood person at the workplace.
-consider careers that will let you be your own boss someday. This allows for independence, flexibility and extra tax deductions. Besides, under the table work may become a necessity if government entitlements require brutal income tax rates.
-as noted above, humanities and other soft sciences are only valuable if you have connections in business or government. If you are really interested in these classes then wait until the Internet revolutionizes the course delivery system because many of the university profs are boring as hell.
-trades and techs pay much better than most people realize. If you are not afraid to get your hands dirty you can make good money. As a bonus, most industry jobs have good pensions, health care plans and other benefits.
-remember that for most people a job is simply the way to earn money to be able to spend on things you enjoy. Real life is not like TV and movies.
My advice was (and still would be) to go to university in order to get a good education (but choose your institution wisely). Such an education would have to include those subjects (history, philosophy, literature, etc.) that seem to be derided by some people on this thread. Such an education will not necessarily get one a job and is unlikely to get one a high paying job, but that doesn’t mean it isn’t worthwhile. A good education will serve you every day of your life, whether you eventually decide to be a plumber or a medical doctor, it is not affected by fluctuations in the economy, and no one can take it away from you. There was no material thing my parents gave me that was more valuable than what they contributed to my university education, and I was happy to ensure that my own child could receive a comparable gift.
Perhaps those commenting weren’t happy with their own university experiences, or with those of their children. That’s unfortunate. If what you are really trying to say is that many (if not most) contemporary universities don’t do a very good job of educating their students, you’ll get no argument from me, but that is no reason to abandon the ideal of higher education.
What needs to be done is to have a massive overhaul in education. Now you have students poised to go into university who cannot write a proper sentence whereas in my parents’ day, one was knowledgeable enough to enter the workforce if not a post-secondary institution. Raise the bar starting in grade one. Emphasize things like trades (even baking cakes or doing hair) in high school. Remove useless degrees like women’s studies. Make sure the people entering university actually belong there. If a student really wishes to study liberal arts in college, make sure he has other skills he can fall back on.
Just my quick thoughts.
I would tell my niece/nephew:
1) Major in a field with good prospects.
2) Work your way through university. Not only will it reduce your debt, but it gives you work experience on your resume. Working for more than a year somewhere is a big plus.
3) Don’t spend money frivolously. University is affordable, the university experience is not. Drinking, smoking, drugs, video games, coffee, movies, concerts, restaurants, Europe, all have one thing in common: they have nothing to do with earning a degree.
4) Suck it up when you graduate. Get a job, and keep applying while you work. Continue to live cheaply as you aggressively pay off your loans.
I’m disgusted when I read about university graduates who claim they can’t find a job, or can’t live on their own. I lived on my own for years with part-time, entry level jobs. It’s not that hard if you aren’t stupid with money.
Ted, great to hear you’re doing well! Seriously. How did what you learn in your Poli-Sci degree directly lead you to your current job? Did 100% of your fellow Poli-Sci students get jobs with comparable incomes? 90%? 75%? 10%?
Jimmy Pattison never got beyond high-school. In fact, I’m not even sure he got beyond elementary school. Now he’s billionaire and the fourth richest Canadian.
Using your implication that your Arts degree is THE reason you’re now earning what you do, Pattison should be making well less than $20,000 per year.
So what exactly was your point? And you’re an expert in Communications, yes?!
I would tell them to consider college. There are many practical diploma programs that they could take and most have good job prospects.
College generally doesn’t fill your head with mush either. It is about the development of practical skills that employers need today.
just my 2cents.
Roseberry, I never besmirched the value of all education so please don’t tar all feathers with the same brush.
But let’s get back to the original NY Times article or the video clip from Spokane. Are you saying that it was worth it for all/most of those kids or their parents to go upwards of $100,000 in debt? For what end purpose?
Mark Steyn once wrote about the more frivolous subjects at universities being more akin to hobbies. Nothing wrong with spending money on a hobby, if that’s what brings you joy. But is it a wise use of money for most people to spend, say, $20,000 on basket weaving or anthropology or sociology?!? Back when I was going to UBC in the 80’s we called those “bird courses”. I forget the actual genesis of the term but they were definitely for the birds!
I would suggest drive a truck….especially if you don’t have “border problems”.
The shortage of drivers in the 90’s, inspired an influx of 3rd world types…who would bend the rules and work cheap……but couldn’t cross the border. US DOT has zero tolerence for foreign drivers with bad abstracts….and are bigtime suspicious of “new canadians”.
I would suggest going to a trade college or into one of the hard science/medical/engineering degrees in university.
As for the other subjects, such as philosophy, history, etc – you don’t need to learn about such things via a university. You can read and explore all of that on your own..and escape the indoctrination.
Universities are big business. But they aren’t necessarily about knowledge – except in the hard sciences. There, I acknowledge the research and innovation.
Roseberry
I think that the problem is not only educating the students, but teaching students to how constantly improve their own knowledge. Teaching them to learn.
I agree that there is need to overhaul education with understanding that students are in school not to play but they are there to learn.
As for subjects – engineering, computers, math, physics, biology/nursing. With understanding that math, physics and biology need PhD to work in pure science. Otherwise after BSc in biology one can go for medicine and after math/physics one can work with computers.
I also think that there is always need for people who are very good in history or sociology, but then they have to understand that they need some back up subject, just in case.
As for things like “women studies” ……who needs it.
My offspring, one public relations officer, one aircraft mechanic, one commerce graduate, one finance graduate all employed, not bad. The aircraft mechanic dropped out after a first year of arts.
The question is, what criteria would you use. If it’s a young white male I would push the trades or sciences if he was smart enough. A woman, an aboriginal woman or woman of colour? Hell, yeah, get some basket weaving degree and go work for the government, get the big pension and all. That’s what my “metis” niece is going to do.
Arts students know very well that their degrees aren’t worth what they’re paying, that’s why they think tuition should be free. But the rest of us already pay for most of their ‘education’ – we should listen to these students and demand that Universities provide their education for free – no money from our taxes. They could run non-technical, non-professional education in a ‘book-of-the-month’ club manner and achieve the same outcomes.
Rich Lowry has an American perspective…
http://www.nationalreview.com/articles/267706/congratulations-you-re-debt-rich-lowry
I would tell them to go into something they are passionate about if they have one – very few do. Otherwise go into something that has large general practical application – a couple years toward a bsc and go from there. There is Avery very high likelihood that they will change careers so getting the undergrad first, the trade second may bs the easier and more flexible route. What I see very frequently is very successful people no longer do the discipline that they trained to do but rather manage people who do that discipline – so take some accounting, economics, and management courses.
One other tip that I can offer is for students to try and audit two courses per semester. It’s free, they can be very interesting and they have no tests or assignments. It did for three of my four years at Guelph (12 more courses – a couple that came very much in handy after I graduated) and I wish I’d done it for all of them. (just ask the prof if you can – most are very flattered)
dmorris and ET nail it well.
Society needs hard science people who have been taught to think for themselves as well as plumbers, electricians, truck drivers, nurses, grader operators and others.
A few years of evening industrial cost accounting courses never hurt a farming career. It was easier to keep the balance sheet in the black.
1 hour documentary lays it out:
See “College Conspiracy”
http://www.youtube.com/user/InflationUS?blend=7&ob=5#p/u/0/VpZtX32sKVE
Lots of sweeping statements in this thread. This is my summation, based on my own experience:
1) Times are tough for university grads with enlightening but ultimately economically problematic degrees . . . or for those of them that weren’t in the top 20% of students, anyways. For those that are consistent A-level academic performers, the limitations discussed here don’t attach nearly as strongly.
2) What has been said thus far is geographically skewed to the North American market: if you go to Europe, where university is viewed as something other than a vocational training, employers will do the “this guy got a BA, he’s probably intelligent, we’ll train him” thing we stopped doing in NA once we let 40% of high school graduates into university. The problem is not the degrees themselves, rather the artificial conditions of abundance a generous state subsidy, easy non-defaultable loans and diminished academic standards have produced.
3) The logjam is going to loosen up considerably within the next five years as Canadian society greys out and baby boomers leave the job market en masse. Millennials like myself don’t have it nearly as tough as the Gen X guys did twenty years ago — and I’m not sure if anyone noticed, but lots of them wound up doing OK as well.
My background? Hons BA, history; MA, history, paid for entirely via scholarships/bursaries/free money (I made money doing my MA); juris doctor. Sure, my articling salary is half what I made working as a systems administrator before I started my second degree, but I’ll hit 100k within three years and 200k not long after. My advice to the current crop of law grads is to avoid the white-shoe firms everyone seems desperate to work for, as lots of their work is going to go overseas in the next ten years or so. Litigation, however, cannot be outsourced.
Oh, and the one thing that’s REALLY noticeable is that all the coddled kids that have grown up over the last two decades both lack soft skills and are completely risk-averse as a consequence of mommy and daddy doing everything in their power to catch junior lest he dash his foot against a stone. If you were raised by tough parents you see opportunity everywhere, mainly because the competition won’t get out of bed for anything less than “work-life balance,” whatever that is, nonexistent overly-generous salary offers and a pension. I say let ’em be voluntarily unemployed, they can come work for me when they get hungry enough.
Read The Idea of a University by John Henry Newman. Twice. No, make that 3 times.
http://www.newmanreader.org/works/idea/
Peter Robinson, Uncommon Knowledge, interviews the author of “Crazy U”, a father’s experience with the US College system
http://www.hoover.org/multimedia/uncommon-knowledge/75691
I lurned a bunch of usefull stuf at universety, such as how to find books in liberry, open and reed them, what to think, specially about globull warming witch kills polar bares and makes more twister storms, hurrycanes and such. I lurned a couple of langueges and how speak them. Got a reel good understanding of hystery from proper point of view, like women and black man have.
After that, mostly at Starbucks.
Massive upcoming retirement of skilled workers and massive new and replacement infrastructure projects
for decades to come. A small subcontractor building on a good reputation could become very successful
very fast. That will be the big “if”, finding honest people who are proud of their work.
Students considering post secondary education had better make sure they know what they want and need from their education before they start. If it means working for a year or two after high school, so be it.
A lot of these grads had 18 years of training to become dependent on their parents before they ever went off to uni.
An 11 year old growing up in 1965:
– shared a bedroom with one or two siblings
– Walked to school, piano lessons, their friends homes, to the neighbourhood park for hockey, baseball,
– Delivered newspapers or flyers to earn money
– shoveled the side walks for the old lady down the street
– Went on public buses by themselves or with friends to take in a movie or shop downtown
– went out with friends to explore and discover the world on their own because mom and dad were watching Frontpage Challenge on the family’s only TV
By 1972 that former 11 year old would do all they could to hide a late night of beer drinking from their parents.
An 11 year old growing up in 1995:
– was driven by mom, to school, organized hockey, soccer, dance lessons, their friends homes for “play dates”
– loaded the dishwasher for an allowance
– was driven by a parent to the mall for a movie while the parent shopped and waited to collect them when the movie was over
– spent hours in their own bedroom room loaded with electronic goodies exploring virtual worlds delivered through a video screen
By 2002 that former 11 year old would have parents waiting at home to pick them in the middle of the night up from a booze up. “You know they are going to do it so I’ve told them to call me at any time for a safe ride home.”
dmorris
Brother are you right on.
Not even going to read all the comments. I just know that the Captain’s going to have to weigh in on this one. I’ve said the same thing for over 20 years now as well.
Poli Sci? Sociology? Concentration in environmental studies? Ph.D. in 18th C French poetry?
Yeah, that and $1.39 will get you a Jr. Chicken at McDonald’s.
The young waste their youth. An arts education is wasted or even a detriment to those that don’t have enough real world experience to discern and digest what they are being fed.
“The less schooling you had, the more likely you were to get thrown out of the labor market altogether,” said Mr. Sum, noting that unemployment rates for high school graduates and dropouts are always much higher than those for college graduates.
“The less schooling you had, the more likely you were to get thrown out of the labor market altogether,” said Mr. Sum, noting that unemployment rates for high school graduates and dropouts are always much higher than those for college graduates.
If you don’t go into the trades or hard sciences, then you had BETTER have a plan (e.g. law school, MBA. An arts degree, in and of itself, is less than useless.
I’ve advised our own kids (both are out of our nest and OFF my payroll!) as well as nieces and nephews to go to university for the ‘hard’ sciences, medicine/dentistry, or business … ALL other degrees are only qualified to work for the government (i.e.- teaching) in one capacity or another, and those “govt jobs” are at last on the verge of being downsized back to what they should have remained 35 years ago.
The one niece who decided to save the planet and graduated in ‘enviromental studies’ now serves tables in Toronto; everyone else doing well in business.
I hold a trade license, a diploma in business management and accounting and a degree in Criminology. The latter provided me with great skill sets yet the University Degree was a waste of time and money, it serves no useful purpose atall.
Our son just finished an apprenticeship in Instrumentation. He had a choice of 4 employers waiting to give him a job. He made his choice and is excelling.
Has a wife and two daughters who are at home. The way it should be.
A BA is a direct line to nowhere.
I am now an “instrumentation and control technician”. I started out with a mechanical engineering technologist diploma. I then joined the army. While in the army I did about a year worth of university courses in my own time. They were really not all that difficult. After the army I went into industry in a management roll and made about 40 k a year with tons of overtime. At 35 I realized this wasn’t enough and noticed that the highest paid people in the plant were the electricians, so I started an apprenticeship as an electrician. I could have done this out of highschool. 10 years later I make 140 k a year and could make more but I’m getting lazy in my old age.
I work with guys who are coop students in a two year college program. They have no debt and are making abut 25$ an hour. Before they are thirty they will be making what I am making for a two year investment in a collage program. If I followed my current career path to the top level I could take it in my company I would be making 250K plus.
I consider myself well educated, but it came from curiosity and a library card.
An undergraduate degree will get you nothing, not ever a beer in downtown Bangkok….As for working hard to get a BA…give me a break…a dummy could pass the exams and get this degree..with such good courses as native studies, feminism, lesbianism….wow..don’t these kids know that Math and Science build bridges.
I don’t think there should be any undergraduate degrees….the few years they spend drinking and chasing women in university could be better used working in the oilfields of Alta/Sask.
One upside of no undergraduate degrees it that all those left wing/socialist professors would be out of a job and that would stop them from poisoning the minds of our youth with there b.s.
Undergraduate degrees had to be started by universities to get more money and more people to play sports at the university.
It’s worth nothing.
I watched one of these educated Idiots whining on tv, how she owed thousands in student loans, and how all she could get was minimum wage jobs working in daycare. Meanwhile the educated Idiot had spent years getting a sociology degree from some Canadian University Puppy Mill. She also wanted the taxpayer to write off all the cost of her education. Canadian Universities are industrial Puppy Mills. Each student in University in Canada sucks up 60,000 Tax Dollars for 4 years at University. That is the cost to the Taxpayer to maintain the Infastructure plus the Tenured Socialist Professors. Like John Wayne said. “Life Is Hard, It Is Harder When You Are Stupid”.
I got out of the university/community college stream when I figured out it was a long road to a piece of paper that didn’t mean a damned thing.
Did the freelance writer thing, which I absolutely loved. I got out of that after getting stiffed by several publishers, though. I wanted to get married, and $10/hr plus hit-or-miss writing gigs isn’t an attractive package.
Went into air traffic control, and now make well in excess of six figures and am on track to retire at 53. Do I love it? No, but I like it, I’m good at it, and it allows my wife to stay at home with my child.
There’s no magic answer.
1. Don’t be afraid to change plans. The world changes, and you might need to.
2.If you want to follow your passion, do it, but don’t complain if it doesn’t pay the bills.
3. Work to live, not live to work. You’ll be happier, and so will your family.
Depending on the state of the economy, even some of the “hard” degrees will become more difficult to find jobs in. My wife’s cousin graduated from a college in Southern California two years ago with a business administration degree. Since then, he’s been working in the same sporting goods store that he worked at part-time while going to college. He’s training for a management position with the company, but that’s not what he expected to be doing, and he’s not earning anything near what he had hoped for. He’s sent out heaps of resumes, but hardly ever gets an interview. Still, it’s better than the unemployment line.
apprenticeshit? how do you acquire that?
oh ya, by impressing the fat filthy T-shirt cigar chomping scowl faced boss who bitches it costs him 100 grand to train you (ignoring the fact he MAKES a quarter mill in the process).
I even tried to bribe my way into one, that didnt work either.
let’s recap:
– equivalent of 2nd year apprenticeshit
– I show up sober when I say I will,
– dont steal stuff
– EVERYTHING I did that was inspected PASSED inspection
– etc etc
what to do? MASSIVE REFORM of the apprenticeshit programme:
– first you do an aptitude test, then you work a year or so in the trade doing ANYTHING related to the trade (you’re not an apprentice yet !!)
– NOW you do a fult tilt written test and if you pass you get the goddamm apprenticeshit INDEPENDENT of any employer or boss, with all the work you did counting towards the quota.
you want to go into medicine? ok, get high marks and dont kill anyone; you’re in. it DOESNT depend on the whim of a self serving individual.
the ‘shortage’ of skilled workers is due ENTIRELY to the ARTIFICIALLY created conditions established by the status quo boys.