They could have, at the least, kept their mouths shut;
But this portrayal missed key considerations. In the extent and scope of their criticism of Jones’ aims, senior U.S. officials, including Clinton and Gen. Petraeus, exceeded their constitutional remit in ways that could undermine future security and liberal-democratic ways. The same can be said of Harper and his defence minister.
Their warnings and beseechings raised immeasurably the stakes in this matter. Politicians risked the possibility that a government failure to apparently force Jones to stop — a constitutional impossibility, in any event — would produce more blowback than ever. Now that this pressure has forced Jones to climb down on his own, liberal-democracy’s enemies at home and abroad will be emboldened. The outcome doubtless confirms their doctrinal belief in a soft West that is vulnerable to ever-increasing levels of terrorism and stealth-jihadic demands for endlessly-Islamizing “accommodation.”
There is more to the political overreach problem. The package of freedoms for which the U.S. and Canada sacrifice in South Asia presumably includes the “first freedom” — freedom of expression — in Canada’s Charter and the even more expansive U.S. First Amendment provision. As U.S. Supreme Court decisions remind us, this freedom even protects those wishing to burn the U.S. flag. It is unlikely any ostensibly sacred text could have outranked the flag for such constitutional purposes.
Brief government statements-of-position would have sufficed in the Jones case. Unfortunately, the extremes to which politicians went might encourage future officials to pressure for expanded crisis-driven, religion-based censorship, out of fear of “offending Islam.” Worse, the recent hysteria requires that we ask whether posturing politicians and media are internalizing the Organization of the Islamic Conference’s international objective at the UN of imposing Sharia blasphemy norms on Muslims and non-Muslims worldwide.
Read it all.
Ali (my friend) believes that because of the larger context of history, the Muslim world is correct to have collective outrage because of past (perceived) wrongs.
What a load of crock.
Islam wasn’t spread with a butter knife.
If is wasn’t for the brutal hegemonic militarism of forced conversion, Islam would still be restricted to a handful of nomadic Bedouins on the Arabian Penninsula.
ROPMA
I still refuse to burn a koran, but I’m consoling myself over this debacle by storing my research copy in the freezer underneath some pork back ribs.
Oh, c’mon Batb!
PM Harper and Peter MacKay will have to stand before God and answer for their response to the atrocious agenda of the Muslims.
Totally OT. Quote Bible chapter and verse for that one. I suppose you’re getting into sins of omission and commission, but show where this is in the sin category.
God in His Heaven, have mercy on us.
One Koran burning threat and everyone has gone mad. And that’s not just the Muslims.
Abe Froman
Absolutly correct. From Rutherford to Adler in Canada . All you heard from them was glee at running this guy down while ignoring even their listeners or calling them fanatics. You could actually here the fear in Adler’s tone.
Rutherford was in full panic mode. Just listen to the shows in archive.
Being Canadian left a bad taste in my mouth after listening to the monkeys hurling crap at someone who could do them no wrong, while extolling Islam.
Remember too this guy had a visit from the FBI. Has the Ground Zero Mosque Imam?
JMO
“I am not playing this game.”
Exactly Phantom. It seems someone is “wagging the dog” every other day now. I think it’s a symptom of a society that is unable to focus. We’re like a flock of geese, willing to follow which ever turd that decides to break ranks from the flock. Until of course some other turd pulls the same stunt.
When Harper put the Body of Christ in his pocket, those who feigned extreme rage were those who hated Harper, not so much the Catholics who saw the Eucharist desecrated. Everyone else causally referred to the Body of Christ as a “cracker”. To my knowledge, no Catholic carried out a jihad against him or anyone else who insulted the Sacrament of the Eucharist.
Switch to Muslims who prove to be equal opportunity rage fanatics (they’ll get angry at anybody or anything). These guys will get angry- murderously so- over any slight, real or imagined.
Is there ever going to be a politician who mans up and faces these lunatics down?
Jones comes across and seems to be nothing more than another religious wing nut that stumbled into notoriety. I think a useful idiot in that hopefully the Muslim hordes will overdo their primal indignation to the point it will force our ”leaders” through public pressure to take a stand. Now isn’t that wishful thinking.
gellen, I’m quite serious.
I am angry that our Prime Minister, along with the other leaders of the “free” (for how long?) world, took it upon themselves to tell us in the West to cool our jets, not to provoke the infantile responses of “offended” Muslims the world over, the implication being that one threat by one pastor to burn one Koran somehow made victims of Islam and Muslims and that if they pillaged, vandalized, and murdered once this Koran was burned, it was somehow our fault.
I didn’t detect any outrage when Muslims took to the streets in the ME and burned the American flag, an actual indignity as a response to a threatened one.
All I’ve heard from the U.S. “leaders” is stand down, don’t provoke the Muslims to anger and violence. Pretty much the same with PM Harper and Defense Minister MacKay. We need much stronger leadership than this.
IMO, we’re in a deadly war with militant Islam, and the last thing we need is surrender-monkey Western leaders telling US to be temperate, while saying nothing about the mayhem produced by riled-up Muslims when someone looks at them sideways.
I can’t force the Prime Minister to do anything, but I can write him to tell him to grow a pair and to stop playing the fool to faux Muslim victimhood, the consequences of which will most likely be very dire for Western Civilization if this kind of capitulation continues. Hey, I’ll stand before God and answer for my actions. I’m not picking on just PM Harper and MacKay. But, they’re our leaders and to whom much responsibility has been given, much is expected. (My response, taken in context, was in answer to both Cjunk and Oz who said, why bother? Writing PM Harper and MacKay was a lost cause.)
I expected a lot more from our Canadian leaders. Or, at the very least, as Kate suggests, silence. I expected them to defend our Western freedoms not to tell us to stand down and shut up so as not to offend Muslims.
Oz, you seem to have missed the little detail that I was blacklisted from said climate science for opposing global warming theory.
Just thought the mob might like to know who they are seeing down there in the lion’s den.
Anyway, if you folks think that burning Korans is going to be a game changer, then I hope you’re right because the game does need to be changed, but I suspect it will backfire in terms of strengthening the place of the Islamics within the liberal political structures of most western countries. And strategically that will not be a good thing in the long run. That’s all I’m saying on this issue.
In any case, Harper’s the guy that needs to be woken up, I’ve been wide awake for quite a while now.
I guess this is the answer to all the insults to Christianity the Bible burning, piss Christ, Feces Mother Mary, etc, etc
Just tell them every time you want to insult Christianity, every radio program that slags us, we’ll just burn a dozen or so Korans for each insult. Warn them that if they insult Christians, THEY will be responsible for the Koran burning, not you
Should put an immediate end to the defamation.
“Remember too this guy had a visit from the FBI. Has the Ground Zero Mosque Imam?”
Well, someone did say something about the “failed conservative policy of not showing-up to riot”. The proof is in the pudding.
Oz
I was simply conveying the jist of the conversation, not saying I agree with him.
I suggest that the red herring attacks against Harper and McKay are ..red herrings.
Our society is not yet ready to articulate a full-scale confrontation against Islam in its political and societal nature. Such an emerging awareness MUST begin from the ground up.
Just as the Tea Party movement in the US began from the ground up, as a full-scale confrontation by the average American against government deficit spending, big govt intrusion and socialism. It did not emerge via a top-down leadership – and it would not have been as vital and important if it had.
It is the same thing with the Awakening of the West to the real nature of Islam..that it is a political and societal agenda. Not a religion. It uses religion as a cloak to hide its real nature.
This awakening reaction MUST begin from the ground up. From the people, the average individual.
Therefore, the exhortations to ‘Write Harper’ and ‘he’s a wimp’ are in my view, exactly the wrong thing. It’s we average people who must write on blogs, yes, write to MPs and the PM, write to news stations, to FOX news, to CNN. But it’s WE who must take the lead and articulate our concerns. It must NOT come from the top-down. Not yet.
Remember when Obama and Holder wanted the trials held in New York? The reaction against that stopped them. This was a grounds-up reaction.
What has stopped the West – Americans and Canadians in this case – from confronting the real nature of Islam, is years and years of political correctness, multiculturalism, and that hands-off attitude towards religion. But more and more people are doing the previously unthinkable; they are asking questions about Islam, confronting it – and finding that its followers have no answers.
For example, the answer given in one comment above, that Muslims are upset because of ‘past history’ of western imperialism is sheer rubbish. That’s the Edward Said post-colonial junk, which sets up the East as a victim of the oppressive West. Try for some facts and you’ll find that Islam, as a conquering oppressor, swept through Europe in the 12th c…and can’t be defined, ever, as a victim of the West. It’s a victim of its own oppressive ideology.
But we, as individuals, have to confront Islamic political and societal agendas. Ask questions. Write the imam, write on blogs. Speak out. It isn’t time yet for the top-down approach. That would fizzle in a day..
PM Harper did not speak for me on this issue. He should have ignored it.
If Obama and Harper have the time to concern themselves about an obscure pastor who gained publicity through a silly ass media they really prove to the horrible wacko Islamist/Muslims, whatever, they’re running scared, exactly what terrorism thrives on.
It’s probably the worst move by the West on this front ever, it’s bush league.
Any bets GWB would have bothered with this?
ET
Look at all the posts here. Overwhelming angry at this surrender by our overprotected coddled Elites. To yet again desert nomads with a plan to kill the other. The ones who don’t bow before them with to a bloody god of hate. In their gods merciless vendetta of hate of all mankind. Particularly Women.
Read Genesis ET, read it with open eye’s.
Kate has hit a real nerve in the Canadian Heart.
The serpent is Women-kinds greatest enemy.
Now what, or who, would qualify for that?
JMO
Great column by Victor Davis Hanson on our political leaders’ utter foolishness in all of this.
http://www.nationalreview.com/corner/246212/enough-already-right-reverend-jones-victor-davis-hanson
We’re really screwed if this PC idiocy continues. For the past couple of (Charter-driven) decades, our schools have been run on the same suicidal premise: appease the bullies at all costs. The adults have left the building and the lowest common denominator rules the roost: dhimmitude.
Frankly, I’m not the least bit annoyed at Pastor Jones. (At this point, I’m quite angry at Harper, who should know better.) Jones’s, albeit, juvenile push back has shone a laser beam on the barbaric, toddler, obscenely hypocritical behaviour of our Islamist enemy. I think the Western kettle’s really beginning to boil these days, thank the Lord—and that’s what’s needed if we’re to have any chance of holding on to our freedoms and way of life. I think it’s about time we did something about “being mad as hell and not willing to take it anymore”.
Another point. From Power Line today:
“I think we all understood that, notwithstanding President Obama’s slight walk-back from his initial supportive stance on building the Ground Zero Mosque, he wants the mosque built at the proposed location. Today, at his press conference, Obama pretty much said so. Responding to a question about the GZM, he said:
“‘If we say that their religion is somehow offensive . . . what are we saying to them? I’ve got Muslims fighting in the uniform of the armed services of the United States. They’re putting their lives on the line for us.’”
(What utter poppycock by this unintelligent dissembler: read all about it at Power Line!)
Like the GZM controversy, the Jones affair has smoked out Obama: when there’s a conflict between Islam and the citizens of the USA, he can’t help wearing his Muslim-shaped heart on his sleeve. I’d imagine that, because of the Koran burning issue and Obama’s ham-fisted (whoops!) response, even more Americans are appalled by his forked tongued treachery. In my book, that’s a very good thing!
Hmm. I had a response but I think I’ll develop it into a blog post which will officially earn me the title of insane right-wing crackpot. Should be fun.
Excellent, batb.
I haven’t said I agree with the PM, or that he should have made a comment at all. I’m not sure why a comment was expected. A pastor in the US can say anything he wants and I’m not sure why this needed to be addressed by the PM. I think I can see Peter McKay being concerned about the troops. The PM made it very personal: My God and my Christ is a tolerant God. I applaud him for his candor when it’s not popular to be that open about your faith if you are a politician. Certainly not in Canada and you’re a conservative.
Your posts are a pleasure to read and I usually learn something, or am entertained. As I said, it was a tad OT to say what God is going to do when Harper and McKay stand before him on Judgment Day. We don’t make that judgment (and I know you know that).
>>> “New wacko says will burn Koran on steps of the Wyoming State Capitol on Saturday;”.
http://www.newswatchcanada.ca/
…-
>>> 800 Muslim wackos on the lam in Nigeria.
But; but, no mention of “burn Koran” by AssPress.
…-
“Nigeria: 800 inmates escape during prison attack”
“By SHEHU SAULAWA, Associated Press”
“About 800 inmates escaped a federal prison holding Muslim extremists in northern Nigeria during a sunset attack by gunmen who are believed to be members of a radical sect, a police official said Wednesday.
The attackers went cell by cell at the prison in Bauchi, breaking open locks and setting fire to part of the prison before escaping during the confusion, said Bauchi state police commissioner Danlami Yar’Adua. Four people died and six others remain in critical condition.”
http://www.salon.com/wires/world/2010/09/08/D9I3LCH80_af_nigeria_violence/index.html
CBC embracing Free Speech ala liberals,http://www.cbc.ca/canada/montreal/story/2010/09/10/pei-cbc-comments-anonymous-584.html?ref=rss&loomia_si=t0:a16:g2:r5:c0.0317133:b37231706#socialcomments
Richard Fernandez @ Pajamas Media:
“The huge publicity given to Jones implies yet another thing. Extremism unfortunately works. If Jones has indeed gotten the GZM to move then he will have succeeded where reasoned argument did not. And he did it by imitation. Inevitably the blackmail tactics of Islamic extremism would generate copycats of which Terry Jones may only be a foretaste. Rewarding bad behavior has always brought the bugs out of the woodwork. Here is Jones playing back their own script. And nobody likes it. But either we all play by the same rules or no one does. Either that or the rulebook — not the Koran– gets effectively burned. A world in which only selected, politically correct groups are exempt from the requirement of civility cannot long survive. Unless equality before the law replaces political correctness the danger is threats will replace discourse. Smith and Wesson become more weighty than Moses and the Prophets when coercion is rewarded, as it has been too often for too long, in the past.”
I’d say “Amen” to that.
Thanks, gellen. I do know that, but sometimes in singular times, we are moved to say singular things.
I’m on PM Harper’s side, but this issue has got me really riled. Being a Christian doesn’t mean that we don’t take a stand — and, sometimes, it means not only taking a stand but fighting too.
I’m getting ready … so far, just with words!
the barbarians are through the gates.
We’re actually on the same page, batb.
I’m also the type to write a letter. Not much use in venting on a blog only when it has to reach the ears of those in power.
Did any of us stand up when the Liberal govt protocol office banned the name of Jesus from the Swissair memorial service? I think we all rolled over then and haven’t taken a stand about anything since.
There was a period when Canadian Christians were shy about declaring their faith in public. Ah, the good old Quebec-hosted Liberal years.
I find on this blog (hosted so wisely by Kate) that the Christian posters have become much stronger over the past few years. Maybe because there are a few Christians sitting in the House?
“Islam wasn’t spread with a butter knife.”
Hahaha!! Best line of the thread. Loved it.
mhb23re at gmail d0t com
Richard Fernandez @ Pajamas Media:
“The huge publicity given to Jones implies yet another thing. Extremism unfortunately works. If Jones has indeed gotten the GZM to move then he will have succeeded where reasoned argument did not. And he did it by imitation. Inevitably the blackmail tactics of Islamic extremism would generate copycats of which Terry Jones may only be a foretaste. Rewarding bad behavior has always brought the bugs out of the woodwork. Here is Jones playing back their own script. And nobody likes it. But either we all play by the same rules or no one does. Either that or the rulebook — not the Koran– gets effectively burned. A world in which only selected, politically correct groups are exempt from the requirement of civility cannot long survive. Unless equality before the law replaces political correctness the danger is threats will replace discourse. Smith and Wesson become more weighty than Moses and the Prophets when coercion is rewarded, as it has been too often for too long, in the past.”
I’d say “Amen” to that.
On the surface, this seems to be a reasonable assessment. After all, civilization is supposed to be about reasoned discourse rather than fistacuffs. But man is a capricious animal, and logic and reason are not only hallmarks, they are also tools – tools which in skillful hands can be folded back on the user and used to intellectual bludgeon him. The easiest mark to manipulate is the “logical” and “reasonable” individual. Sometimes, the only way to deal which such a bully is to punch him in the nose, hard, more than once. Sun Tsu didn’t write the only book on the skills of war. The lesser known redneck tome “A dozen ways to use a 2×4”, can also provide the necessary guidance in steering the course of intellectual combat.
gellen, we are on the same page. I actually wrote Chretien after Christians were told they were not to pray in the name of Jesus at the SwissAir memorial in Nova Scotia, while none of the other faiths represented had any restrictions put on them. The Christian ministers/priests were surrender monkeys; they should have told Chretien and his merry band of bigots to stuff it; they should have asserted their Charter Rights.
For some reason, Charter Rights in this Deranged Dominion seem only to apply to every faith and culture BUT the founding culture of North America: the Judeo-Christian culture which brought democratic principles to bear in all spheres of communal life. That, I believe, was Trudeau’s aim: to wipe Canada clean of its Christian British heritage — and he had a cohort of secular humanist Quebecois, educated at that hotbed of socialism, the London School of Economics, to help him in this task. They’ve been pretty successful.
I have decided that whenever possible I will speak truth to lies when it comes to the role of Christianity in our civil society. We have about three or four generations of brainwashed Canadians (you can’t even mention God in public schools though Gaia’s OK and there are even prayers to Gaia on Earth Day), who have been taught that the Christian Church is bad, bad, bad, that nothing good can come from it. They are completely ignorant of the good the church does, despite its many failings. I point out that Toronto, say, without its churches would be a dystopian wasteland: In an instant, gone would be the cohort of volunteers to man clothing depots, food banks, in from the cold/heat programs, and the list goes on. Toronto would be a night of the living dead (more than it already is!) if it weren’t for the myriad services provided by churches to the homeless, mostly free, offered by a host of volunteers who take seriously Christ’s command to love your neighbour as yourself. Sadly, this volunteer cohort is aging and waning.
We’re now a society of surrender monkeys. It’s time to take back our culture and assert it, without apology.