Where’s the minaret, I also asked her? Why don’t we just declare Sharia law? She was surprised by my alarm and really didn’t say anything, or if she did, I couldn’t hear it despite being silent myself. I asked her if she really didn’t understand why it was a bad idea for a public space, the public library, to use religious symbols in its carpeting. No answer.
Simple semantics for simple Semites, from the gospel according to ET:
“Apart from the fact that ethnicity is not equivalent to race,”
and,
“an Islamic carpet, art, or furniture design is NOT an expression of the Islamic religion!”
so,
how a carpet, with the ancient designs of Islamic art and culture, can be seen as representative of Islamic religious and political fundamentalism…
Gosh. Enlightenment! The world is suddenly a much safer place! I guess we can all go back to sleep now…..
Interesting how some people interpret “things” (or patterns on things) to be idolatry towards their own cause.
It wasn’t the Golden Calf that was idolatry, it was what it represented to people.
ET>
“Oh, and the blogger was, until he knew the definition of the design, quite excited about that carpet!”
Knight > Exactly…………..
“The Toronto Subway has a stop at the Museum; its motif is the large ‘totem poles’ of the indigeneous peoples..funded by the Canadian taxpayer. There are no images of European art. Should we complain?”
Knight > It seems that no one does. I suggest that the reason is that Canadians are fair and actually not as fixated on race and racism as the Liberal left would like to claim. I also maintain that the issue is not race, but equality and fairness. It seems to only flow one way in the liberal mind.
You can argue until “the cows come home” that the representation on the carpet in the TO library is not religious, but that is not what people Islamic or not believe in their heart of hearts. That is why they have lined up in droves wearing burka’s to see it. You can try to explain to Canadians the nuances of Islamic art verses cultural Arabic art all you wish, but at the end of the day reasoned people will instinctively know what the intention was as the Muslim patrons clearly already knew.
Islam is a religion. Islamic art is therefore religious art.Religious art should not be funded by the taxpayer,esp. in a secular society. Is there something that I am missing here?
I found this story absolutely shocking.
People in Toronto have books?
Who knew!!!
Uh, oh: Remembering that muslim outrage over the perfectly innocent infidel ice cream cone swirl design.
Perhaps some of us are being too twitchy here, and as ridiculous as the anti-ice-cream-cone muslims. Blush.
Upon further reflection, ET and others are right on this one.
Nevertheless, we must remain vigilant. The Muslim Brotherhood’s object is the peaceful, incremental insertion of shari’a law for parallel muslim mini states within western nations. If we are too big-minded, too tolerant, one day, after concession up concession, we’ll wake up in shock.
And it needs to be said, that Simon Fraser University, had it retained the cross in its coat of arms, wouldn’t be supporting a new crusade.
Vitruvius – as I said, this is not about pretty Persian carpets.
No, I’m with Kathy at what is apparently her most controversial. Aside from the odd individual human-sympathy case, end Muslim immigration to the West.
No? I live in a backwater (Halifax), and a mosque is going up two blocks from my place (defacing one of the city’s few interesting landmarks, I’ll add). The building seems kinda pretty, but then again, if there’s one thing that Islam can do right aside from a pretty carpet, it’s an attractive mosque. Seriously, nice architecture.
Even liberals I know have wondered why the local burqa-wearing-type Muslim population seems to have increased in numbers exponentially since 9/11. I’m curious myself.
Canada will now have a Mosque in the Arctic.
http://www.cbc.ca/canada/manitoba/story/2010/04/13/mb-mosque-inuvik-arctic-winnipeg.html
I’d rather walk all over Koranic symbols than be forced to stare at it face down with me bum in the air. He’s got a point, why are they catering to the Islamic community? When did Library’s become symbols of ethnic culture or any specific religion?
Wallyj>
“Islam is a religion.”
It is also an ideology, which is spreading and intolerant of anything that is valued by the west.
Me No Dhimmi>
“Nevertheless, we must remain vigilant. The Muslim Brotherhood’s object is the peaceful, incremental insertion of shari’a law for parallel muslim mini states within western nations. If we are too big-minded, too tolerant, one day, after concession up concession, we’ll wake up in shock.”
There it is in a nutshell! Although you mentioned “peaceful and incremental insertion” that would only apply to those that submit willingly. Dozens of wars throughout the world prove that after the carrot comes the big stick.
Black Mamba>
“The building seems kinda pretty…………………………………… Seriously, nice architecture.”
How true. That tends to change over the years though when the “Call to Prayer” blares over your neighbourhood at 5:00am during the summer months and you’re trying to sleep off last night’s party. 🙂
If the neighborhood was predominately Christian, would stained glass windows be acceptable? I think not. What about the western culture? Are we to simply lay down and be walked over like an old carpet? Apparently.
wally – before you make such simplistic statements, I suggest you do a bit of research on Islamic art and architecture. You are quite wrong.
knight 99 – kindly provide proof that ‘Islamic art’ and carpets are ‘religious’ art rather than art, created by East Asian and ME peoples who live within a predominantly Islamic culture and religion.
Provide proof that all Islamic art is religious in nature; it is not. Religious-Islamic-art IS religious, but so-called ‘Islamic art’ is NOT religious. Don’t you know the difference?
And there ARE distinct differences in patterns, colours, images etc..between the different regions. Surely your time in these regions has shown you that. Why, curators are capable of telling where various rugs and ceramics come from, based on those patterns.
Please remember that these areas are steeped in indigeneous art, designs and even ideology, that is merged within Islam as a religion. Remember that Islam is not simply a religion – and most of its axioms are Judaic anyway – but heavily a societal, economic and political ideology.
How can anyone logically equate a carpet with an ‘Islamic motif’ as a ‘carpet with Islamic religious symbols’?
And could you provide proof that Muslims ‘lined up in droves wearing burkas to see it (the carpet)’. From my reading of the blogger’s text, there were 8 women in burqas. And could you provide proof that they were all there for The Carpet? I’d be curious to know WHY people, any and all, were lined up for the library opening. What was going on there?
You wrote: “You can try to explain to Canadians the nuances of Islamic art verses cultural Arabic art all you wish, but at the end of the day reasoned people will instinctively know what the intention was as the Muslim patrons clearly already knew.”
I admit I’m not a ‘reasoned’ person and I don’t hold much faith in instinct, but I’d sure like to know what the ‘intention was..as the Muslim patrons clearly already knew’. Could you enlighten me about this?
I agree with others – that no ethnic group should be allowed to isolate itself, and refuse to integrate with the Canadian laws and culture (equality of women, primacy of individual will and responsibility etc). Therefore, I’m against the burqa but am OK with the hijab and long dress. Remember, the Hasidic dress code has its own very visible peculiarities.
Exactly, vitruvius – eliminate the extremists, not the good art and Islamic art IS aesthetically beautiful.
I think that it is a mistake to conflate the words Islamic, Muslim,
& Persian. I have a Persian-motif carpet. It is not Islamic. Why?
Because the Persian motif antecedes the founding of Islam.
I kinda like Persian carpet! but in a public library it is a little odd though.
btw, used to have a Persian cat, but never thought of her as Muslim, just as an Iranian. 😉
ET>
Actually instead of allowing you to run me around the internet researching and proving why “Islamic Art” is religious in nature, I will ask instead that you prove that it is not.
The very nature of your argument is a little redundant, although as you’ve highlighted Islamic Art is a collective of art from throughout the Muslim world.
I would also be interested to see some Christian “non Christian Art”. No I don’t mean art made by a Christian as you suggested before, but art based in Christian symbolism and seeped in Christian culture that is “non Christian” in its representation.
No doubt, images subject to semantic interpretation can be drummed up, but at the end of the day it’s like pornography – you know it when you see it.
I will agree with both you and Vitruvius on one point though, none of this would be a consideration by anyone if the extremists were gone.
ET – “I agree with others – that no ethnic group should be allowed to isolate itself, and refuse to integrate with the Canadian laws and culture….”
Actually I find that a tough one. On one hand, why shouldn’t people have the right to choose to isolate themselves in a free society? The Hutterite’s have been doing it in Canada without much issue for a century or more and do not seem to disturb most people. On the other hand, they insure that they are self sufficient, do not attempt to convert the greater world to their ideals, nor do they kill innocents for the honor of their faith.
I suppose it boils down to our rights to protect ourselves from certain cultures and individuals, who are predisposed to harm us. Not only in actual physical confrontation but in the debasement of our own culture in order to preserve or expand theirs. I believe the historical data and the prevailing confrontations around the globe with Islam proves their inability to live in western societies in large numbers.
vitruvius – yes, I agree against the conflation; however, it’s a common theme in ‘basic books’ on art and architecture.
My point was only that so-called Islamic art isn’t just based around the Islamic religion but is rooted in local, diverse, indigeneous influences that – as you say – existed long before the emergence of Islam.
And to declare that all ‘Islamic art’ is an expression of the Islamic religion is invalid.
The interesting thing about Persian- Islamic carpets – and other designs used in ceramics etc – is the symmetry and asymmetry and the interaction between them. Very mathematical..
I have (inherited, stole from mom, whattevah) lovely Persian carpets too. I’ll probably be hawking them for heating money and cat food soon enough. Persia was/(is?) in many ways a glorious civilization which was ground to heel by the desert tribes of Islam, which religion I see as simply a freakish corruption of misunderstood Judaic texts (yes, I’m having a lame day and I’m not feeling polite). I see the Iranians – Shia, of course – as distinct from and potentially superior to most of the rest of the Islamic world, (although I don’t want them getting nukes, let me tell you).
For the second time, please allow me to recommend Beyond Belief: Islamic Excursions among the Converted Peoples” by Nobel Prize for Literature winner V.S. Naipaul. Islam culture is impirial.
But so what? It doesn’t matter if we see the carpets through an aesthetic lens. The fandamentalits Muslims don’t.
Maybe if you’re lucky, they’ll behead you last.
Posted by: Kathy Shaidle at April 18, 2010 2:16 PM
Wow, Kathy, what in particular did I do to p1ss in your corn flakes today?
I’ll be the first to happily join in any discussion in favor of halting the barbarians at the gate (so to speak) of my country. However, this particular case doesn’t qualify, IMO.
You may disagree with me — which is your right. But, in future, in direct responses to my posts, I would respectfully request you address the points I make, instead of slick, single-statement, emotion-laden rhetoric which neither addresses any points I make, nor really adds much to the larger discussion at hand.
And, for the record, I am a white, male, conservative, christian, tax-paying, Canadian — the paradigm target for the last acceptable prejudices in western society. So, spare me the assumption that I’m some kind of unthinking liberal lap dog.
Yes, my punctuation and spelling have gone flooey. Apologies. It’s mostly the depression, not the booze.
Fundamentalism is fundamentally not fundamental.
Uh, oh: Remembering that muslim outrage over the perfectly innocent infidel ice cream cone swirl design.
Perhaps some of us are being too twitchy here, and as ridiculous as the anti-ice-cream-cone muslims. Blush.
Posted by: Me No Dhimmi at April 18, 2010 4:45 PM
Heh, good point.
People, we must pick our battles, and this isn’t one of them.
Someone up in this thread suggested ending immigration from problematic Muslim countries. Now, THAT is a suggestion I could get behind.
Creeping sharia.
If that isn’t enough of an explanation we are lost.
I agree with the notion of prohibiting immigration of fundamentalist Islamists, Colin, because their fundamentalist ideology is denotationally antithetical to the traditions of Canadian civilization (just as I don’t think that we should be immigrating any other brand of anti-Canadian fundamentalists), yet I still think that we should at least try to be careful that we don’t necessarily prohibit the immigration of someone who happens to be a non-fundamentalist non-Islamist just because they happen to be originating from some geo-spatial region labelled by some as “a Muslim country”.
No-one at 4:53pm. Is the mosque a solution to the radical Islamic problem? No food between sunrise and sunset during Ramadan is about six months up there…
BTW, I have two Turkish carpets and two Chinese carpets I bought overseas – does that make me a Chinese Muslim?
The author of the article is just a professional grievance monger who is simply afraid of which way the HRCs would go in a muslim/gay dispute. As such, he is frustrated and looking for a support but, in my opinion, is unlikely to find much with his crappy carpet argument. Oh yes, he should learn how to check out his own books instead of demanding special service from a white Christian heterosexual.
First conquer, then convert. Pres. Bush began the first. The second will follow. People tend to want to be free and have a system that promotes freedom.
That’s why he called it a Crusade.
Secularism is quite weak, I suppose that’s why people are so insecure about carpets.
knight 99 – you are getting trapped in semantics.
And after all – you are the one claiming that Islamic art is religious art; so you ought to support your own opinion. So far, you haven’t done so.
Islamic art and architecture is a generic term for art that has been made in areas of the world that are also, predominantly, of the Islamic religion. That does NOT mean that all the designs, art patterns..all the rugs, ceramics, drawings…are religious in meaning or intent or symbolism! Research it yourself.
“The term Islamic art may be confusing to some. It not only describes the art created specifically in the service of Islam, but it also characterizes secular art produced in lands under Islamic rule or influence, whatever the artist’s or the patron’s religious affiliation. The term suggests an art unified in style and purpose, and indeed there are certain common features that distinguish the arts of all Islamic lands. Although this is a highly dynamic art, which is often marked by strong regional characteristics as well as by significant influences from other cultures, it retains an overall coherence that is remarkable given its vast geographic and temporal boundaries. Of paramount concern to the development of this singular art is Islam itself, which fostered the creation of a distinctive visual culture with its own unique artistic language.”
http://www.lacma.org/islamic_art/intro.htm
Now, ‘Christian art’ is a different term and as a term, usually refers to art that IS directly relevant to and is an expression of..the Christian religion.
Don’t get trapped in words.
Don’t get these two descriptive terms mixed up; they do NOT mean the same thing.
Equally, don’t merge Islamic fundamentalists with ordinary Muslims.
Nope, it’s just carpet. The only offensive thing about it is the colour. Ugh…
From ET at 8:14pm: “Don’t get trapped in words.”
Especially ET, when you provide the words to trap yourself. From the article that you provided the link to regarding Islamic art:
“Contrary to a popular misconception, however, figural imagery is an important aspect of Islamic art. Such images occur primarily in secular and especially courtly arts and appear in a wide variety of media and in most periods and places in which Islam flourished. It is important to note, nevertheless, that representational imagery is almost invariably restricted to a private context. Figurative art is excluded from the decoration of religious monuments. This absence may be attributed to an Islamic antipathy toward anything that might be mistaken for idols or idolatry, which are explicitly forbidden by the Qur’an.”
The carpets used in the library are void of any figural imagery, whether intended or not, by the decorators of the library, they did so to appeal to the target market based on the “make-up of the community.” As the art is suitable for the decoration of a place of religion, it would then be viewed by the target market as religious art. In the same context as an appropriate picture of a Christ figure would be seen by a Christian as Christian art.
A reminder, this is a publicly funded library, that should show no bias towards or against any religion, and the purpose for its existence is the spreading of knowledge through the written word, not the proselytizing for any particular culture or religion.
Ok you must be right.
We should decorate all of our public buildings in “non religious” Islamic art.
Hopefully, that will buy some appeasement, and save a few necks.
ET for what ever reason is ignoring the reality that in practice THERE ARE NO SECULAR MUSLIMS.
Hence there is no merging of “ordinary muslims” with “Islamic fundamentalists” because in practice there are only MUSLIMs.
Kathy Shaidle
Okay perhaps you are a bit prickly but then so am I……you are my kind of girl.
We are not prejudiced or bad people…we just have an opinion……
Incorrect. There are secular muslims, as there are secular christians, and secular jews.
Nevertheless, they are not the problem. The problem, as always, is the ideologues.
I vote for the Ten Commandments. Lot of people could benefit, especially from the ninth.
al- have you ever checked out Oriental Carpets? They are normally ‘void of any imagery’. They are complex geometric patterns using symmetry and asymmetry.
Oh, and a carpet is not a ‘religious monument’.
So your convoluted outline that SINCE there’s NO images in the library’s carpets, THEN this MUST mean that the carpets had religious intention..is completely wrong.
And because something is ‘suitable for a religious perspective’ does NOT mean that it IS intended for a religious perspective. That’s a basic logical fallacy, called ‘affirming the consequent’ if you are interested in the term.
Knight 99 – why should we decorate all our public buildings in secular Islamic designs? We use designs from all sources.
Sasquatch – kindly provide proof that there are no secular Muslims and furthermore that, by your definition, all Muslims are fundamentalist Islamists.
ET – I am very impressed by the intellectual vigor you have brought to this thread. The reaction to motifs derived from art emanating from the ‘Islamic’ world is a troubling reminder of the knee-jerk reaction that some segments of our society are beginning to develop.
I strongly suspect that even the most religious Hindu from India would see these motifs and associate them with India, not with Islam. I am certain that a Buddhist in Indonesia would feel the same way. After all, this is an art form, and neither would automatically associate it with religion.
It seems we have reached the age of paranoia in Canada. Beauty is no longer seen for what it is, but rather for where it originates from. I would even go so far as to suggest that if you were to ask visitors to the library what they thought of the carpets, all the visitors from east of the Bosphorous (and not a few Russians) would say that the designs remind them of their countries of origin. Not religion. Just countrie.
Sadly, our reactionary friends have eschewed reason for an ideology and dogma as rigid as that which they purport to oppose.
a damask carpet is a design from damascus. not India
I’m wondering if the author of the post forgot to wear his tinfoil hat the day he went to the library opening. I happen to like the carpet design and would rather have that instead of a boring wear-resistant gray carpet that seems to be the norm in public buildings. All of the carpets in my house have complex geometric designs because I happen to like that sort of thing. I’m with ET and Vitruvius on this topic. Yet again, this has nothing to do with islamic fundamentalism and it’s not something I’m going to get outraged over. TROP has way more important things that should be criticized and this furor over a carpet is likely to make the general public less likely to believe some of the real dangers of TROP.
Ask a Hindu or Sikh Indian if he knows or cares about what a Damask carpet is.
Odds are he’ll recognise the patterns and designs as being similar to something his relatives have at home in India. I doubt he’ll give it any more thought than that. Unless, of course, he’s convinced that muslims are using carpets to subjugate him.
I suppose that makes his relatives muslim. Somebody should fill them Hindus and Sikhs and Buddhists in about the Islamic carpets that litter virtually every middle class and upper class household in India.
I want to be clear. I do not have a problem with East Indian decor, I happen to own a beautifully carved china cabinet from India that came with 8 carved chairs complete with east indian tapestry -the colour and design is stunning IMO which is why I paid a tidy sum for it.
My concern lies in the lengths we go to accommodate this group at the expense of everyone else and I do not believe it is because of multiculturalism either. I think it is a result of consistent subtle and not so subtle intimidation. For instance, the threats that were made this week to Ujjal Dosanjh and Gordon Campbell who did not attend a parade in their own city due to threats by this group:
“They have never been invited,” Inderjit Singh Bains said during an interview on Radio Sher-e Punjab “If they come, they need to bring their own security.”
Organizers are denying that any threat was implied.
Both Dosanjh and Surrey Mayor Dianne Watts have lodged complaints with the RCMP about the comments.
The parade has a history of controversy because of its support for Sikh militants in India. Both Dosanjh and Hayer are Indo-Canadians who have distanced themselves from the militant movement….In years past the parade, which marks the Sikh new year, attracted a slew of political figures, including the premier, MPs and the mayor.
But in 2007 Liberal, Conservative and New Democrat politicians who attended the parade faced political embarrassment after a photo of alleged Air India bombing mastermind Talwinder Singh Parmar was displayed on a float.”
I for one, do not put up with intimidation well.
Read more: http://www.cbc.ca/canada/british-columbia/story/2010/04/16/bc-vaisakhi-parade-threats-dosanjh-hayer.html#ixzz0lX4Er6ld
“Again – an Islamic carpet, art, or furniture design is NOT an expression of the Islamic religion!”
Gotta agree with ET on this one,all most.HOWEVER,honour killings,raping young girls,murdering Jews,gays,infidels,etc,strapping bombs on mentally retarded children,bombing Israel off the face of the Earth,wrapping women in burlap,ad nauseum, IS an expression of the Islamic cult.
And just saw the flip flop.So you are saying Irish art is not a reflection of Irish religion??? Or that St.Georges Cross is not a reflection of British religion? I guess that bachelor of assinity(BA) and the piling it higher and deeper(PHD) is really working out for you.Good thing you live in Toraanwa.More useful idiots there to work with.
justthinkin – heh, always the same; whenever someone can’t think, they turn to ad hominem. Ah well.
Nope, your ‘ad misericordiam’ examples aren’t results of Islamic art. And nope, Irish art isn’t an expression of Irish religion but Irish Religious Art IS such an expression. Oh, and the cross is a symbol of the Christian religion but is not, itself, an expression of English art and architecture. I bet you don’t know that. Cheers.
“I asked the first librarian I could find where the branch head was. ”
Last doors on the right…
@ET from 10:57pm:
“Oh, and a carpet is not a ‘religious monument’.”
I never said it was ET, it is a floor covering, but it is in a publicly funded building, and placed there by someone who wanted to appeal (appease?) the local community and acknowledged that to the original blogger, It is a blatant attempt to kowtow to a particular cultural/religious community. The question I would like to ask the decorator of the library is simple, why not use the typical monochromatic carpeting one would see in a public building, or no floor covering at all. If the intent is for its usage to make one cultural/religious group feel welcome, it is currying favour from that group, and therefore meaning they are favoured ahead of any other group of persons, even if the other groups are unaware or do not comprehend the origin and design the carpet signifies.
It may be be illuminating to report that Sikhs are leaving Thorncliff Park in droves for more pleasant pastures in Mississauga.
Worth noting that Sikhs were the majority in Thorncliff Park from the 1970’s up to the late 1990s, but the City didn’t change the carpets for them. Probably because they never asked.
Also worth noting that the author of the piece is a public services freak of the worst possible sort. The type of ancient, cardigan wearing upper class twit housewife that shows up at library openings and bugs the staff about the freakin’ carpets. Except its a guy. Twee much?
Thankfully such creatures are concentrated in old town Toronto, a place I’m as far away from as is practical. We don’t get many like that out here.
al – the monochrome carpet is, itself, a ‘cultural artifact’ and can be viewed, as well, as an attempt to ‘appeal/appease’ (by the way those two verbs are not synonyms)..a cultural group who prefers monochrome to pattern.
So what if the carpet, with its ‘Muslim motif’ is meant to welcome Muslim users to the library. What’s wrong with that, if the predominant population in the area is indeed Muslim? Don’t they pay their taxes as well as do non-Muslims?
Are you also thus saying that the Xmas decorations that are put up by the city, on various lightpoles including the massive Xmas tree in Toronto’s City Hall square – should no longer be allowed because they ‘appeal to/appease’ a particular population?
Should the Santa Claus parade be cancelled? What about Gay Pride? Caribana? St. Patrick’s Day parade? These all receive taxpayer monies.
I’d suggest some realism and humility rather than your uptight view of ‘those dirty Others’.
“It may be be illuminating to report that Sikhs are leaving Thorncliff Park in droves for more pleasant pastures in Mississauga.”
All it means is that Sikh’s have attained the financial security required to attain upward mobility. The houses in Mississauga are more appealing because they are larger, better equipped and newer, which is merely reflective of the fact that Thorncliffe homes are older, smaller and less capable of handling modern amenities. This migration is not indicative of some kind of alarming change that is threatening Sikhs.
“Worth noting that Sikhs were the majority in Thorncliff Park from the 1970’s up to the late 1990s, but the City didn’t change the carpets for them. Probably because they never asked.”
This is the kind of statement that always amuses me no end. My backpacking days are behind me but they did take me across India. Have a look at some pictures of the carpets used in Sikh religious buildings and even homes. They, how should I put it, look a lot like what many here call “Islamic” carpets. In fact, I doubt anyone in the subcontinent would be able to differentiate between an Islamic carpet and a Hindu carpet. I invite you to google “Sikh carpet” and take a long hard look at it and tell all of us here how it differs from an Islamic one (particularly given the use of symmetry and geometric shapes in both).
The Hindus and Sikhs in India are perhaps a little more straightforward than some of the SDA denizens. They liked something and made it their own. The muslims “won” presumably because Hindus and Sikhs now produce carpets that are identical to Islamic ones. Tell a Hindu or a Sikh that and he’ll tell you that the carpet is “Indian”, not “Islamic”. Similar patterns are also present in houses across Russia.
This has less to do with the ability of Islam to subjugate others and more to do with the inherent beauty of these creations. I, personnaly, don’t care who or what created the carpet. If I like it, I buy it.
Posted by: ET>
Now the lefty racist accusations jump out. I was wondering how long it would take.
“I’d suggest some realism and humility rather than your uptight view of ‘those dirty Others’.”
Earlier it was only threats, needed to build the momentum I suppose:
Posted by: ET at April 18, 2010 4:05 PM >
“The Toronto Subway has a stop at the Museum; its motif is the large ‘totem poles’ of the indigeneous peoples..funded by the Canadian taxpayer. There are no images of European art. Should we complain?”
“Street signs in the various ethnic areas of Toronto often are in ‘both languages’ – i.e., in the Chinese area (one of them; there are numerous Chinese ethnic areas) the signs are in English and Chinese. Funded by the Canadian taxpayer. Same in the Greek area.”
Should we complain indeed.
No connection to the religious argument that was laid out – Simply a casual implication that whoever argues against immigration and changing societal values or questions possible appeasement of our laws for certain groups, must be a “RACIST”……………”those dirty others”…..yea ok.
Actually, since I write the Fans of Toronto Public Library blog, I am de facto a fan of Toronto Public Library. And of the carpeting in its renovated branches, all of which I visit.
However, I have significant objections to religious symbolism installed in public spaces.
I believe all this was quite clearly explained in the piece. Perhaps you should reread it?
wiltard, you appear to have missed my point. Which was, when do you recall the City of Toronto redecorating a public building specifically to suit the Sikhs? Or the Hindus, or the Chinese etc.?
I can’t remember that happening before. Nor can I remember a Toronto library skewing its collection to suit an ethnic group by -removing- material rather than adding extra material.
As to Indian carpet patterns resembling Muslim and Persian ones, no duh. But the symbol of the Sikh religion is two swords and a halberd for a reason. You go talk to a couple of older Sikhs about Thorncliff Park, they’ll give you an ear full.
Joe Clark, I’m pretty sure I understood your article. Funny to see one group getting their religious symbols into the library when nobody else can, eh? That was my point. Says more about City of Toronto than about Muslims, you ask me.
BTW, how are you finding objecting to a religious group whose members don’t tolerate such dissent quietly? Easier than Anglicans, or not so much?
“Which was, when do you recall the City of Toronto redecorating a public building specifically to suit the Sikhs? Or the Hindus, or the Chinese etc.?”
This is where we disagree. I don’t believe that the redecoration is meant “specifically to suit the Sikhs? or the Hindus, or the Chinese etc”. The designs are not neccessarily offensive to non-Muslims and they have not been put their to cater specifically to Muslims. They are simply aesthetics that people from some parts of the world recognize and identify with their past. Why is that so wrong?
Nor, indeed, is this a City of Toronto issue. If you have travelled through Vancouver Airport’s international terminal, you will notice that it possesses one of the largest collections of Native Artwork. Is this decoration done to “specifically suit” the natives? Is the airport used primarily by natives? I think not. The designs are there because public buildings are occassionally used to reflect the diversity of the Canadian population. The ‘Islamic’ motifs so denounced here appeal to the aesthetic senses of most people from east of the Bosphorous. This is a reality of Canada. I don’t see why these motifs are so offensive.
In any case, since we both agree that Indian carpet patterns resember Muslim, Persian and Central Asian and, to a great degree, even Chinese patterns, lets just treat these ‘Islamic’ motifs as Buddhist Chinese or Hindu Indian motifs. That ought to make it a little less offensive to some the reactionaries here.