Where’s the minaret, I also asked her? Why don’t we just declare Sharia law? She was surprised by my alarm and really didn’t say anything, or if she did, I couldn’t hear it despite being silent myself. I asked her if she really didn’t understand why it was a bad idea for a public space, the public library, to use religious symbols in its carpeting. No answer.
Gay!!!
Only a Gay man could get away with asking such questions and raising such a fuss.
The shortest shelf in that library probably has more books than have ever been printed in Islam so those carpets will probably never wear out. Unless of course a section of the library can be designated as a prayer area for those scholars who are on the go and need a convenient place (with foot baths)to worship the divine Allah.
Toronto is certainly “world class” something.
at least it will be soft on the soles of his feet after he gets tied across a pole for a caning.
Feh. Tried as I might, I read through the entire essay yet could not generate the requisite outrage the writer felt I should feel.
Yes, the choice of carpeting was probably questionable, but it’s more than a bit of a leap to suggest we just “declare Sharia law.”
I get the sense this was a person who went to the library opening with the intention of feeling offended. About anything.
IMO.
Yeah, Colin. And Muslims NEVER set out to do that.
“Tried as I might, I read through the entire essay yet could not generate the requisite outrage the writer felt I should feel.”
Posted by: Colin from Mission B.C. at April 18, 2010 1:17 PM
Yeah. Sometimes dull acceptance or unconscious resignation gets in the way…
sounds like gta is following the example of great britain.
It’s just a bloody carpet…
That may be the case, Kathy, and is a statement I would probably agree with in general. But, your counterpoint addresses nothing I wrote in my post.
To the point I did make, I would note that the writer began his “offend-a-thon” while waiting in the lineup outside, by counting the number of ethnics in his midst.
One additional point I should have made in my first post. While I personally would probably have missed the Islamic nature of the carpet decoration, I would most certainly not have overlooked its garishness. In a word, Fugly.
I agree with Colin. I don’t see any crescent moons or stars on any of the rugs shown. Nor do I see any of the Islamic Koran writings that you always see when you go into Mosques or other Islamic places. It is just a rug design and it probably is there for the local population. It doesn’t even look like there is some story going on in the rugs like you see in Turkish carpets. Next time I’m in the area, I’ll check it out.
“It’s just a bloody carpet…”
Well, its not bloody YET but I have a feeling it might get that way shortly.
As the piece mentions, that area is crammed with Muslims. The nearby Ontario Science Centre screened or is still screening an IMAX film about Mecca, Disney-fied with Islam cleaned of all its nastiness, the trailer of which I curiously saw in a movie theatre hundreds of miles away in Owen Sound (my tax dollars at work I suppose). It was obviously a bit of dhimmi jizyah to the Thorncliffe overlords.
What no Xmas tree patterns?
It will be interesting to see the TO library in decades to come with shelves filled with nothing but the Quran.
Everything else will be considered subversive and banned.
At least people will most likely have a variety of choices of Quran, big ones, small ones, bound in black, blue, brown, and any other color aside from pink.
I can even imagine the large carpeted rooms full of men pounding their heads on the floor, while Imam Librarians recite the selection of the day. In the basement, the women folk patiently and “quietly” wait in well covered gowns for the men folk to finish educating themselves.
No remaining western Infidels need apply for a membership of course.
What a wonderful culturally diverse society we’ve made for ourselves.
Personally, I don’t mind if public institutions have religious symbols on them. Since when is secularism/atheism the “neutral default mode” of society? The only thing I care about is that the library offers equal access to all people, and does not engage in censorship. Let the local libraries each decide how they want to decorate themselves; it’s none of my business. The more decentralized these decisions are, the better, in my opinion.
I agree – I don’t see anything to object to and it is illogical to state that Islamic art is always and only a religious art.
It isn’t; art within Islamic culture is artistic expression within a complex and varied culture with many influences (from the past, from China, from different ethnic and cultural notions) that rejects (for the most part) representations of humans but with animals, plants…and those complex geometric shapes. So, it’s shapes, vivid colours in some instances (it’s different in various parts of the Islamic world)..This has nothing to do with any religious expression.
As for the author, I felt he was existing, constantly, on an emotional threshold. Why is it unnerving for him to see, in a particular area of Toronto – which is Canada’s largest immigrant home – ethnic enclaves?
These are natural in all areas of the world; people stick together…and in Toronto, Montreal, Vancouver etc..you’ll find large Jewish populations in one area, Hasidic in another, Italian, Portuguese, Polish, Greek..each has their own ‘dominant’ enclave in any large city. These areas include many grocery stores and restaurants catering to ethnic tastes etc. You’ll see this in the schools – where you can find, in some areas, 95% of the children are Chinese; in another, the majority are East Asian; in another, they are Protestant West European.
Does the author really expect a quota-sample of the various ethnicities of the entire Canadian population to live in each and every area of a city?
Why was the author so prickly about how to return his books? So, they have a new method – found in most large libraries. Grow up and adapt to it and don’t snarl at the desk clerk as he did.
The carpet? So what? What’s wrong with a pattern reflecting the cultural aesthetics of the dominant ethnic group in the area? After all, in other public buildings, we see similar aesthetics – whether it’s the Scandinavian Western European ‘no pattern’ style..or..
If an architect puts in a Scandinavian style, does it mean a movement towards the Protestant religion? Or aetheism? What about an Italian theme – does it mean a movement towards Catholicism?
My only question was – heck – why was everyone lining up for a library opening? Were they giving away free memberships or passes to the computer room or..what was the reason?
Not having seen the entire library, it is hard to put a rug in context. Is the whole place like that? Is there other pieces of architecture that are definitive as to their cultural origins?
Much like a museum, I have seen libraries that have areas or halls in a particular motif. As sort of portal to a culture or world as it were. You know, like a zoo having a rain forest exhibit, a northern tundra area, African savanna and such. However, if the whole thing is a kowtowing tribute to the Islamic Empire and the washrooms are all equipped with foot baths and the toilet seats face Mecca then “Houston, taranna has a problem.”
“These are natural in all areas of the world; people stick together…and in Toronto, Montreal, Vancouver etc..you’ll find large Jewish populations in one area, Hasidic in another, Italian, Portuguese, Polish, Greek..each has their own ‘dominant’ enclave in any large city.”
That’s all very well and good when those enclaves and the denizens of them are mostly benign. Muslims are anything but.
Public institutions under multi-culti jurisdiction are gravitating to sterile soviet grey bland. Another argument for privatization and the elimination of more public institutions including HRCs. Only the private sector exercising extreme prejudice with their own property rights can truly celebrate diversity.
On the other hand, it might make for some light entertainment if the author could convince his colleagues in the Gay community to route their Gay Pride parade through this neighborhood.
“What’s wrong with a pattern reflecting the cultural aesthetics of the dominant ethnic group in the area?”
Cuz they aren’t the ones paying for it?
The ironic thing is that pretty carpets are one of the things Muslim cultures have traditionally done very well.
That “Islamic motif” matting at the Toronto Public Library is not a pretty carpet.
(The sooner outspoken gays wake up to the threat of fundamentalist Islam the better.)
Colin:
“I would note that the writer began his “offend-a-thon” while waiting in the lineup outside, by counting the number of ethnics in his midst.”
Er, so? I know we (nice stupid white people who pay for everything) aren’t supposed to dare notice such things, but such things matter.
Maybe if you’re lucky, they’ll behead you last.
ET>
“…..it is illogical to state that Islamic art is always and only a religious art.”
Is that not like saying that Christian art is not always a religious art?
I hazard a guess that most people who may be offended at the prospect of “Islamic Art” in a public place has anything to do with the art itself. I believe that it again has more to do with the fact that western culture has essentially outlawed Christian symbolism in publicly funded institutes, but seems to welcome foreign symbolism.
Is that due to pandering or simply fear of Islam as with many European nations?
“My only question was – heck – why was everyone lining up for a library opening? Were they giving away free memberships or passes to the computer room or..what was the reason?
Posted by: ET at April 18, 2010 2:04 PM”
Well ET, obviously news of the carpet was leaked out to the Muslim community in advance.
And while your correct about ethnic cocooning being natural, the question isn’t about communities. All immigrant groups are relatively harmless compared to the non-blending, non-bending supremacist followers of Islam. They will not change, we must. So, shall we?
Much ado about carpet.
Some of you may not care about the racial makeup of Toronto.
But the racial makeup of Toronto cares about you…
Rather than the carpet, a better indicator of any submissive tendencies in the library might be the books.
Not just with the blogger’s preferred subject matter (and I notice he says “Muslim books outnumber queer books about 4:1”, which means the term “queer” is an acceptable synonym for homosexual in his eyes and so I feel free to use it any time I want to ….)
I mean books on religious or political subjects, particularly history as it pertains to the Middle East and Israel. What are the ratios there?
And an even more obvious indicator would be where those books are physically located. If books on Israel or Judaism are located in various random locations (on top, middle and bottom shelves) as the result of a neutral indexing system, then things would appear normal. But if they are all confined to the bottom shelves, with books on Islam given pride of place on the top shelves, then you know things are screwy.
If you have a neighborhood made up mostly of Muslims in traditional dress it tells me our immigration system is broken or corrupt.
Odd how “gay” people are often not all that gay. Sometimes the negativity is just the sign of an unhappy person.
Out will come the “if”, “then” statements”. “If we allow those carpets, then they’ll behead us all”.
It’s comical, sometimes. Reminds me of Obozo.
I get ET’s take, but with reservations.
I’m inclined to not give an inch to Muslims on the public dime.
NOW, if this was interpreted as an ingenuous gesture and it had the effect of having muslims re-think and de-demonize infidels and maybe call off the jihad, I’d be gung ho. But I suspect that every outreach gesture we offer is perceived as appeasement.
Perhaps I’m too paranoid, but so is Canadian Muslim Salim Mansur who worries about Islamist penetration of Canada, with special attention to the despicable Tariq Ramadan.
If I’m not mistaken (or unless the decision was reversed) Simon Fraser University agreed to remove the CROSS from its coat of arms. [no sign of it on their home page just now].
I mean, parroting ET, wouldn’t the muslims be big about this and just say, ‘so what, it’s only a cross’ and donate anyway.
The issue of course that in a time where Christmas events are suppressed and Hallowe’en is downgraded to “black & orange day” employees of the state thought nothing of choosing a carpet this “in more of an Islamic motif because of the makeup of the community.”
Mark Steyn has the best response:
“The Toronto Public Library says ‘Mustapha shag'”
Don’t get it?
Click here (language warning):
http://www.fhmindia.com/site/article.aspx?id=27427
Perhaps if someone would try an experiment and spit on the carpet.
If spitting results in angry glares or, at worst, a charge of public mischief then it’s a benign issue.
On the other hand if it results in a charge of a hate crime, a fatwa or the HRC’s involvment then we would pretty much know the score here.
“Much ado about carpet.”Posted by: Dante at April 18, 2010 2:40 PM
No, it’s not about the carpet, Dante…it’s deeper than that. It’s about the public’s choice of nap.
I dont know Trona that well. Usually my travels are the airport to Bay Street, maybe a walk up along Yonge then Im outta there.
How far is this library from the publicly funded gay pride parade route?
there are other enclaves other than ethnic.
The guy protests to much and as a result waters down his intended message. And all this S#it about
counting whites, etc; and then meeting his JEWISH friend at the entrance speaks volumes to his ‘tude.
And yes, the carpets look like vomit would improve their look and yes, it is kowtowing to the Muzzie hordes, but he could have made his point a lot more professionally.
blackbird – I beg to differ.
Hasidic Jews are ‘non-blending’; how about Chinese enclaves? And no, you are quite wrong that all Islamic immigrants are ‘supremacists’.
Knight 99 – no, you misunderstand Islamic art. It is found within societies whose religion is Islamic but the art is not necessarily an expression of the religion. Geometric shapes are not symbols for ‘Allah’ and ‘God’. The art is complex and isn’t based around any celebration of the Islamic ideology but heavily around patterns and colours.
Equally, the art in a predominantly Christian society is not necessarily an expression of the religion. IF the art is ‘religious’, then of course it will be about the Christian ideology ..but not all of Rembrandt’s or Da Vinci’s work was about the Christian ideology and surely, if one admires the Mona Lisa, it doesn’t mean that one has ‘become a Christian’.
Edward Teach – don’t generalize. You can’t claim that all Muslims are rabid extremists; you haven’t a shred of proof. That’s like saying that all Jews are out to rule the world and have infiltrated all the govts and banks and…
Kathy – that’s a rather childish claim, that the architecture and interior design of a public building must reflect the..the what..the religion, the ethnic background..what?..of the predominant ratio of taxpayers? Are you serious?
How do you statistically evaluate, first, the ratio of ethnicities of Canadian taxpayers AND the ratio of tax generated from these different Sets (esp. when many are of multiple ethnic backgrounds)..and the proportion in municipal, provincial and federal taxes…and then, do you armed with this data base, go to the architect and inform him that he MUST design a building with 10% European art, 15% Chinese, 2% Quebecois, and… I suspect that he strangle you..after a few choice words that architecture and art are not enslaved by tax quotas.
Since this ratio would be valid for all of Canada, then, all architecture and interior design would have to be the same. Oh – and who would decide exactly what designs are allowed, and which directly represent the dominant taxpaying ethnic group..and which designs are not allowed? Is there a predominant Chinese art? Jewish?
Could you provide some proof that ethnic populations – in particular, the so-called ‘visible minorities’ – pay no taxes? Almost half of Toronto’s population is ‘visible minority’- with the largest being South Asian and Chinese. Do they pay no taxes?
John Chittick – my request to the organizers of the Gay Parade is to stop with the pornography and stop with the Bash Israel political floats.
Black Mamba – yes, Persian carpets are famous for their beauty. It’s quite something to read the suggestions here that IF one admires and even purchases a Persian carpet, THEN one is supporting or approving the Islamic religion.
blackbird – I’m against multiculturalism, i.e., the political view that isolates communities from each other, sets them up as adversarial, funds them to remain isolate and supports their hate-crime grievances against each other…and that discourages their developing a common identity as Canadian.
I have no problem with ethnic heritage identities and honouring one’s past..whether it be Korean, Japanese, Indian, Greek, Italian or whatever. But an immigrant nation must develop a common identity; my concern is with those who reject the development of such commonalities. I don’t think a Persian carpet in a public library is any hindrance to such a development.
“I agree – I don’t see anything to object to and it is illogical to state that Islamic art is always and only a religious art. ”
No big surprise,ET.You also think the Palis are on the same level as the Israels.Just another “intellectual” yapping away,and saying nothing.So what college is paying for your retirement? God save us from these people,and Ontario,keep voting them smart Liberals in.Can’t wait to see you die by a screaming mob of vieled women,screaming Allah Akbar as they stomp you.Can we have a dual vote to kick Queerbec and Ontario out?
And ET’s usual usless response,taking up half a page in…..
Its interesting that this is in Thorncliff. There was a real estate article in the paper the other day that said that the average value of real estate had gone up something like twenty percent in the GTA last year. There were however, two neighbourhoods where the values had gone down, one was Thorncliff, where values were down 5% from a year ago. I would be curious to know why.
Wait until the legalize shoe throwing for some people but not others.
Because some people are more equal than others on the slippery multi-culti Canadian world.
As has been drummed repeatedly into the cringing civil servants that librarians are, the library is for everyone. Remind them of that and let the patron sort himself out.
ET>
“no, you misunderstand Islamic art.”
Actually, I have lived for almost two decades in a variety of Muslim countries and do understand the concepts of Islamic art. The point I was making, is that Islamic art is indeed a stylized representation of religious idol worship which otherwise cannot be expressed as a characterized representation.
You’re comments would have been validated had you referred to cultural art such as Berber, or Saudi or Iranian, Pakistani etcetera.
Instead the correlation has been made with Islamic art which is ideological and encompasses all forms of different cultures from Pakistan to Malaysia of which each has its own individual indigenous art forms that are distinctly non religious.
Had the TO public library made a carpet pattern based on an indigenous Malaysian print, I doubt very much anyone would have made any negative remarks although Malaysia is predominately an Islamic country.
Again the point made is that Islamic art is a binding force of many individual nations and cultures based on a religious belief system. This is being funded by the Canadian taxpayer under the guise of non religion. This same courtesy is not extended to any other religion living within Canada including the founding one which happens to be the majority tax base which has funded this project.
Kathy – that’s a pretty slick statement – ‘the racial make-up of Toronto cares about you’. Apart from the fact that ethnicity is not equivalent to race..but..could you provide some proof that a Korean family cares…etc..
And Mark Steyn simply links to the original blogger; he makes no comment. The 1943 letter is har, har..public school English. So what?
me no dhimmi – Salim Mansur, who is a personal acquaintance, is against the fundamentalist Islam and he’s right to be so. But how a carpet, with the ancient designs of Islamic art and culture, can be seen as representative of Islamic religious and political fundamentalism..is beyond me.
Mississauga Matt – that’s part of the stupidity of political correctness and multiculturalism where the social justice types – and many of them are ‘visible minorities’ as well as ‘whites’..are frozen and unable to celebrate simply ‘being human’…and that humanity includes one’s various histories.
cal2 – it’s far from the gay pride route, which is in the ‘gay enclave area’. Wow – even gays have their own area. This library is in suburban Toronto.
Again – an Islamic carpet, art, or furniture design is NOT an expression of the Islamic religion!
Municipal tax funded libraries and buggy whip museums can usually hold one’s interest for approximately the same amount of time for the single visit in a lifetime each one requires.
ET, I love your stuff, I really do, even when I disagree, which is very seldom (basically only the JP-AP (Jewish Palestinian-Arab Palestinian)
conflict. Behold my new nomenclature.
And especially these posts like at 3:09pm.
Always has me smiling thinking of a dazzling martial arts display with the Master taking on all comers in sequence, flinging to left, to right, onto the carpet, off the walls. And the resentment, oh the mild resentment of the vanquished. LOL.
I am truly in awe of the breadth and depth of your knowledge. And your courage.
The comedy here never ceases. Everyone is so serious about their insignificant group opinions. Quite entertaining.
Quite tribal, and if anyone steps out of line…not unlike the Islamists.
Just noticing…
I can’t see the problem with the carpeting. I couldn’t agree more with ETand some others on this, and very well said.
And how does being gay fit into this at all?
And I see KKKathy Shaidle is back on her high hobby horse. Somehow an ethnic carpet design leads to beheading? Waaaaaay over the top! Not for the first time.
She’s the extremist. I’m afraid of people like her. Are we expected to pass the white test with all of our designs? Does she truly believe only white people pay taxes?
Save your powder for a real problem. It’s pretty hard to take anyone seriously when they are perpetually outraged at even the slightest perceived transgression from their ultra narrow view of what Canada is about, and who Canadians are.
knight 99 – yes, I completely agree – the cultural differences in Islamic art can be identified such as Persian, Berber, Pakistan etc, but usually, in books on art and architecture, it is within a section titled ‘Islamic Art and Architecture’.
This does not mean that art within such a definition is ‘religious Islamic art’ but it is art produced by peoples within a predominantly Islamic population. Nor is Islamic art a ‘binding force’ – other than that it frowns on depictions of humans..but this rule is not always followed. Objects used in religious worship forbid human representation..also found in Jewish art..for this is considered idolatry. But human representation is found in other Islamic art.
The term used by the librarian, ‘more of an Islamic motif’, was correct; there was no need to move further into an exact description..i.e., as in Iran, or as in Indonesia or as in…And that’s probably all it was – a ‘motif’. I can’t imagine it was genuine! There was no correlation made with any religious ideology.
Again, Islamic art is NOT the same as religious art and it is astonishing that people here are merging the two. A Persian carpet on one’s floor does not mean that one approves of or follows the Islamic religion. Same with ceramic bowls.
As for any statement that the decor was funded by the Canadian taxpayer – so what? Canadian taxpayers are Canadians; and that includes our immigrants and the various religions. The public library’s carpet is NOT a religious carpet.
The Toronto Subway has a stop at the Museum; its motif is the large ‘totem poles’ of the indigeneous peoples..funded by the Canadian taxpayer. There are no images of European art. Should we complain?
Street signs in the various ethnic areas of Toronto often are in ‘both languages’ – i.e., in the Chinese area (one of them; there are numerous Chinese ethnic areas) the signs are in English and Chinese. Funded by the Canadian taxpayer. Same in the Greek area.
Oh, and the blogger was, until he knew the definition of the design, quite excited about that carpet!
Me No Dhimmi – and the precise nature of Barack Hussein Obama’s psychological abnormalities, let’s not forget that.
I’m half serious, here – Muslim symbols on the carpet, public building, taxpayer-funded, community yadda yadda, hurt feelings, so: Could an HRC complaint be lodged?
ET #2>
“..but not all of Rembrandt’s or Da Vinci’s work was about the Christian ideology and surely, if one admires the Mona Lisa, it doesn’t mean that one has ‘become a Christian’.”
That statement is just plain silly.
There is obviously a distinct difference between the artist and the subject of his art. The point that seems to be missed is that Canadian political correctness has allowed the bending of its laws for certain individuals and cultures in its society. That is morally unpalatable and even criminal in a society that claims that all cultures and individuals are equal within its borders.
The fact remains that religious symbolism is outlawed in Canadian public places. Islamic art is religious in nature and not specifically distinct to any one Muslim nation’s indigenous culture. Yes of course it borrows ancient art forms from many of these cultures, but has since become a religious binding force.
Make a floor pattern based on Celtic symbolism and few would bat an eye, paint a wall sized mural of the crucifixion and the library would be bulldozed to the ground. At taxpayer expense of course.
I fail to see how or why we should be prevented from enjoying any art form, be it ancient Persian, last-millenium North-American Indian, or even a simple pretty painting of a rainbow, just because a bunch of extremist nut-bars have claimed to take it over. Eliminate the extremists, I say, not good art!