Everything seemingly is spinning out of control:“Obesity is becoming more common among poor city dwellers in Africa….
81 Replies to “Western Nations Pledge Millions In AYDS Relief”
Thanks Knight99 – I bet I’ve misread more than one of your posts – good to know.
Oz – I don’t know why I’m so argumentative tonight, but SheilaG isn’t sanctimonious, and not off-base.
And microcredit is totally on topic. And as I said, 95-98% of the loans are repaid. Much better than giving big lumps to governments, and waiting for the crumbs to reach the people who need it.
and blackmamba – I am a schmuck
Hey, SheilaG I’ve got a heart, I’ve got a mind to go with it.
I was abandoned as a child too.
Africa isn’t my problem.
I resent you for implying that it is, and I resent that you imply that if I don’t see it to be my problem that I don’t have a heart because, in your words:
“You may not care about them. That is your prerogative. But I do, as does, anybody with a heart.”
I have my causes, foreign nations and the people that populate them aren’t among them.
So take your judgements and your guilt trips and stick it where the sun doesn’t shine you self righteous harpy.
Additionally, SheilaG, the guilt cards you are playing are the exact same cards that are played, and rather successfully, to coerce other people to socialist causes, first through voluntary action, and then when they get enough volunteers they lobby the government for legislation to force everybody to support their cause.
Posted by: Oz>
Yea, I wouldn’t personally go as far as revoking her good honest work and deeds over a few thoughtless comments.
I will agree full stop, that the “guilt cards” played by the emotional cranks along with their sleazy predator pimps have long run their game out!
It’s strange to me that people can stand in the middle of anarchy and have completely different viewpoints of what’s going on, similar to witnesses at an accident. The fact that intelligent people can chime about cultural and tribal differences in Africa as authorities on the subject but have absolutely no idea what they are truly talking about is amazing to me.
They wear their emotions on their sleeve and their “down to earth” judgments are clouded by their personal ideologies. Take “rape” in Africa for example: It’s been cited several times in earlier thread comments as the horror of horrors over there. Yet when you spend enough time in Africa, you realize that this is typical business as usual in most of its cultures and a widely accepted source of barter. Oh I know how that sounds to us – but there is no surprise to most Africans when stated, unless there is a “sympathetic con” going on. They indeed know our culture much better that we do theirs, so in turn they know which buttons to push and who among us is an easy mark.
The entire problem of Africa is because of western “Do gooders”. People starve and want because of western influence and interference. The more we interfere the worst it will become. The more underdeveloped and third world immigration we fill our own societies with, the worse we will become.
Knight 99 let me try again to make myself understood.
My take on this “finding” (from the article referred to (The data chimes with findings from the World Health Organisation, which said in October that being overweight has now overtaken being underweight among the world’s leading causes of death)) is that the “powers that be” at the WHO are in the process of discovering another global cause that can only be fixed by a UN intervention supported by concerts promoted by Geldoff and Bono. Gosh, the headline even refers to AYDS (the appetite suppressant of the 80’s).
What cause could be more deserving of our tax dollars than contributing to the reduction of the global obesity crisis? (SARC!!!)
And how better to ensure that the problem is solved than to get the world government of the UN to manage it SARC!!!!)
And we all know that our tax dollars given by our government to the UN to be distributed to reduce poverty all go to the poor and none of it disappears in the UN hands of the UN bureaucrat who manages the crisis or the local kleptocrat who governs the country with too many fat Africans (SARC!!!!!!)
I agree with the tenor of your comments, but think your tone has not been helpful.
If my way of speaking has required you to double your meds – my bad and I am sorry.
Oz–
I don’t mind if you don’t give money to Africa. There are a ton of problems in this world, and we each need to give to the ones we feel the most called to. There’s tons of stuff I don’t give to that’s worthy, so I sure hope someone else is giving there. So no problem at all if you don’t feel called to give to Africa.
My problem is that you said that I was part of the problem BY giving to Africa. You insinuated that it was WRONG to give to Africa, and that is what I am reacting to.
You give to what you want to give to, I give to what I want to give to. What’s wrong with that? To say that I’m somehow part of the problem by giving and that we should just leave them alone is where I think you went too far.
If that makes me a self-righteous harpy (in your words) so be it.
But I sure hope that most of Kate’s readers aren’t like that, because I’ve been reading for years and I’ve always enjoyed it. I hate to think I’m in the company of tons of people who think that compassion on an international scale is somehow wrong, even if it’s done on a personal level and not through governments.
Glad to see, Erik and BlackMamba, that I’m not entirely alone. But I must say I thought conservative Canadians were a far more compassionate bunch.
Oz – for what it’s worth, here’s Mohammed Yunus’ famous Grameen Bank. Yes, I realize there’s a picture of him being felt up by Obama. Yes, I realize he’s named “Mohammed”. Yes, I am instinctively wary of anyone endorsed by Jimmy “goofy-tooth” Carter. None of these are amongst my favorite things. But if you’re really interested in this stuff, click the links at the top, especially Methodology.
You might even check out SheilaG’s site while you’re at it. From my impression of you she strikes me as being your kind of person.
Erik – ’twas spite. Artistic envy. You were published first, you are more talented, and therefor I am Salieri to your Mozart.
Posted by: rroe>
A full out apology rroe! As Erik Larson misread me, I obviously misread you.
No med’s – but I am fighting a bit of a hangover today. Anyway it’s been fun venting on some lefty ideology regardless, to bad your sarcasm was misconstrued as real.
BlackMamba–
I think I love you. 🙂
Sheila I’d like to know your take on Dambisa Moyo’s book “Dead Aid”. And what about President Kagame of Rwanda’s policy to become independent of foreign aid within 5 years?
I too have been in Africa. Based on that experience, I think that we do cause problems when we give to Africa – unless it is done right.
My family volunteered and worked in an ophanage. We gave (and continue to give) direct to those in need and did not contribute to any NGO, government department or charity that put itself between us and those in need. But if we weren’t supporting children, I’d be taking a long hard look at the kind of charity I contribute so as to ensure I don’t perpetuate the problem or make it worse.
Black Mamba – I’m kind of a Sussmeyr-ish Mozart, sadly, and you’re more talented. (Cooly blows on fingernails for his own awesome cultural reference)
I love Moyo’s book. Her thesis is that welfare has allowed governments to get stuck in this welfare-dependency mode, killing more people in Africa than if the Western world had done nothing. It has also allowed governments to increase corruption to such a scale that they basically control their populace (Kenya, for instance, has the most corrupt police in the world). And corruption is far harder to fight against than poverty, because there’s a power imbalance, and the people who have power don’t want to share it because they’re getting rich off of it. So not only have western governments encouraged welfare, they’ve encouraged oppression of the populace.
Moyo instead wants to see micro-finance increase, which is what I’ve been talking about.
We give directly to an orphanage (and visit it) too, but I wouldn’t necessarily advise everyone do that unless you have a very good way of ensuring where the money goes. I know lots of Canadians who have sent over $20,000 so someone can buy a bus to transport children in need only to find out that someone built a huge house for themselves out of it. I think to some extent you need to go through some organization with a Board that requires financial accountability. I just try to stick to very small organizations with little overhead, so that I can see where it’s going and make sure that the aim is self-sufficiency, not enrichment of the person who’s running the charity.
That being said, there is amazing work going on in Africa. When I’ve been over there, I leave with such a sense of hope, not despair, because the people we’ve seen are working so hard. We’ve seen 22-year-old men bunched into school desks because they’ve never been to school, so they’re now in grade 9. And they’re trying so hard to learn. And they are learning.
I don’t agree with government aid, and the Kenyans I’d met wouldn’t either. They want to be self-sufficient (as the president of Rwanda wants). If we really wanted to help, we’d stop government aid altogether to try to put a lid on the corruption, and then try to start more micro-businesses. Help people be self-sufficient and kill the corruption. That’s the route for health in Africa.
I guess I’ll be the evil one here. The most compassionate thing we can do is let the kids die. If you save 200 kids, statistically 100 will be girls. Those girls will grow up and put out at least 5 kids each. It’s their culture. Now, you have 500 starving kids instead of 200. What have you gained by your compassion? 300 more starving kids. It’s cruel. It’s terrible, but if you want fewer starving kids, let the current ones go.
Until Africa is allowed to finish its decent into ashes, sustaining it like we are will just add more people to a miserable situation
Sheila – Perfect. I couldn’t agree more. Your last paragraph nails it!
Okay, let’s see – like Erik (curse him! Who’s Sussmeyr?), I find the mood tonight argumentative.
Knight 99 – normally I think you’re groovy. But please don’t – just don’t – put rape in Dr. Evil “quotation marks” (@8:27). I am not a complete naife; I know that the prevalence of rape in Africa is horrifying. It’s an African cultural problem, and how. How does that sync up with ‘The entire problem of Africa’ being ‘because of western “Do Gooders”‘?
p.s. – sorry about the hangover, but Sheila and I are in love and she hasn’t made any “thoughtless comments” that need absolution.
@7:56 – And since I’m apparently going out of my way to pick fights, Knight 99, (and honestly, I usually like you); have you worked or volunteered in a soup kitchen or food bank? I do. Most of the “clients” are mentally ill/alchohlic/drug addicts (no surprise there, I think) who usually throw out half of the food they’re given.
I’ll keep volunteering; but if I could give those meals instead to hungry African kids, I would, in a heartbeat.
Chris – yeah, you’re right, that is evil.
Posted by: SheilaG >
That last comment made your point well.
All the power to you! I suspect that an independent attitude as yours will rally many other independent supporters.
No one likes to be forced to do anything, whether through forced taxation, or guilt saturation with bleeding heart third world stories. Africa is such an oversaturation that has desensitized the western conservative with overwhelming and never ending neediness.
As you well know Micro Finance has worked marvelously in parts South East Asia to improve the lives of the impoverished. The only way for the economies of the planet to sustain themselves is through self sufficiency. Otherwise you have condemned the economies of the world to feeding an exponentially growing illiterate class of parasitic life form. This is a harsh way to view humanity to be sure, but it is accurate nonetheless. Viral growth due to the benefits of a healthy host with no hope of improvement leaves only a pathetic existence of eating, sleeping, breeding and suffering.
Aid will only magnify the third world into a larger third world in a never ending cycle of dependence and poverty only larger and more pronounce with each generation. This is because the checks and balances of natural selection have been removed by western generosity.
So again, good on your endeavors!
Chris–
Intellectually I see your point. I don’t agree with it, but I do think it’s valid, and I think you’ve thought things through.
I guess what I can’t get away from is that those are living, breathing, human beings you’re talking about. And I, for one, refuse to believe that things really are that helpless. It doesn’t take a lot to bring clean water to a village, and that makes such a difference. Micro-business loans don’t cost much, and they make such a difference, too. Maybe, before we write off an entire continent, we should try micro-finance grants and other capitalist (and conservative) efforts that have not yet been tried on a large scale.
Yes, what we’ve done hasn’t been working. But there are pockets of encouraging signs. Perhaps if we replicated those pockets on a much bigger scale, we’d see some real results. And then those millions wouldn’t have to die now, and the offspring they will have wouldn’t hurt so much, either.
Let’s also remember that much of sub-Saharan Africa has suffered from Muslim-Christian wars. Let the Christian nations die off (as you’re suggesting) just gives the militant Muslim nations more of a foothold demographically. So it’s also a matter of our own self-preservation, and not just theirs.
Posted by: Black Mamba>
Nope, not looking for a fight Mamba. Just expressing a few viewpoints mostly because I’m unable to function far from the keyboard today.
I suspect that the last comment I made to SheilaG sums up my overall feelings about western influence in Africa. No sense in repeating. In summary I have nothing against “Do Gooders” but I do believe “the road to hell was paved with good intentions”! As is the case with resource rich Africa.
Again I support SheilaG in her personal endeavors, so no chivalry needed on your part. My overall concern is never Africa or anywhere else for that matter except the preservation of our North American culture and way of life. The defensiveness on my part derives from the erosion of that way of life through the mindless misuse of our wealth by pandering to foreign powers, mostly corrupt.
Knight: “Wow, now there’s some real empathy, national pride and patriotism all rolled up into one neat little package.”
Just watch the people who use food banks on the days their cheques are cashed leaving the beer store carrying a case under each arm, plus the smokes (any kind). If someone needs help, I give it to them personally.
Also I’ve known people who quit working at food banks and and serving food for the needy because of the abuse. They started out with the best intentions but realized they were enablers, not making a difference.
BTW, my will gives a percentage of my income to the Salvation Army in order that they can continue their good work as and where required. I’ll match my empathy, pride and patriotism with yours any day. I’ve been at it longer.
Chris, evil sums it up.
Raise the standard of living, and people have fewer kids. With microcredit, women can start businesses, get some wealth, don’t have to worry about kids dying, get more freedom, and probably therefore have fewer kids. Good all around.
BlMa – Sussmeyr (or meyer) was the guy who finished Mozart’s Requiem after M died. Not as skilled, and some of his stuff is pretty clunky.
SheilaG:
I would never disparage your experience or thoughts as some have. You saw misery and you tried to help; I don’t know how anyone who professes to be Christian could criticize you for that.
And I believe in many of the things you suggest: micro-loans, small scale farms, water wells and irrigation – these are things I can get behind. A study back in the 1980’s showed that one of the best things that could be done for a central African community was to provide it with telecommunications, so that they could be aware of market prices and forces far away. The company I worked for, MITEL, actually developed the “SkySwitch” – a compact phone system (smaller than a dishwasher) coupled with a satellite link that used less than 75 watts of electricity (so easily powered by even older solar technology). But a funny thing happened – the Canadian government made a few grants to African countries to help them purchase these switches, but somehow the purchase orders never arrived. The grant cheques got cashed though.
The combination of tribalism, post-colonial Western guilt, and honest compassion has been deadly to Africa. When Ian Smith ran Rhodesia, it was known as “the breadbasket of Africa”. Now, many people starve, and Mugabe’s thugs rape and pillage at will (as reported in this week’s National Post). The artificial borders imposed by the colonial powers worked when the Europeans were there to impose order and justice. Once they left, the power vacuum and tribal rivalries meant a descent (dissent?) into civil war throughout the continent. And post-colonial guilt meant we sent them scads of money, very little of which was used to feed or educate people, and very much of which was used to feed the bank accounts of tinpot dictators and build armies and airforces of unnecessary size and cost.
Now we have good-hearted people, who see the horror, and feel they need to do something about it. I understand those feelings, I really do, but this is where I part ways with “liberals”. One definition of insanity is doing the same things over and over, and expecting different results. We’ve done the African aid thing over, and over, and OVER, and we get the same results every time – corruption, crime, personal enrichment, tribal slaughter, and the continued general deprivation of the people. More aid is not the answer – tough love is. Get tough, or cut them off. You can bet the Chinese, who are searching for resources, won’t play with kid gloves if they invest in oil plays in Nigeria, and then some local tribe starts disrupting things – the Chinese will send in troops, guns, and planes, and kill indiscriminately to protect their investment. We have, apparently, no stomachs any more (as the Afghan prison nonsense attests) for standing up to anyone, anywhere.
Our policies, no matter what emotion they are based on, have failed everywhere and every time. So of course Bob Geldof asks for more, the drunken Irish sot. I respect what you saw, I respect what you did, and I respect your feelings. But I will personally be damned before I’ll agree to another cent going down that sinkhole.
gellen – I don’t want to get too off topic here – but here’s a story that really bothers me, related to what you wrote.
Dumping milk for the glass bottle refund. http://gwendally.livejournal.com/408584.html
Stats say one in eight Americans receives food stamps, and apparently one in four kids is a recipient. That to me says the US is in a mess.
I’m sure there is a strange seperate economy with food stamps
Posted by: gellen>
Whoa, back up there cowboy.
Don’t misunderstand that I am all in favor of food banks for the lazy crappers in our society either. I’ve heard all the stories about people showing up at the food bank in Hummers around Xmas.
I was pointing out that there are needy in our society every bit as much as Africa and as a Canadian I believe that charity should start at home first. Again that’s just my belief, do as you may with yours and your money.
Myself I give ZERO to charity. When asked I direct people to the Canadian government which has already deducted mine in the form of tax’s. They in turn distribute my taxes to all kinds of third world countries along with their dictators and corrupt UN officials.
I will “help” those that try to help themselves; this is my belief system which manifests in other ways than government approved charities.
The point I made earlier is directed at people who feel that somehow their charitable welfare pumped into a sinkhole like Africa while neglecting real issues of poverty at home is somehow more honorable. Africa and other destitute nations are nothing without our strength as western nations. When we fail, they will all fail and we are not improving our lot as strong democratic societies anymore, but in decline.
They will fail because Islam and China will not support the Third World as they rise to power. Indeed look who is killing off the indigenous blacks in Saharan Africa, and who is buying up the minerals and resources.
Posted by: gellen>
PS: What makes the difference between the Canadian freeloaders and the African freeloaders that is so unpalatable to you?
At the end of the day it’s all the same – take something for nothing attitudes that the Liberal elite have instilled in modern society.
“Chris – yeah, you’re right, that is evil”
It is PRACTICAL. It is the most practical solution. It is already happening. All we’re doing by sending money is making it take more time and harm MORE people. Turn off the emotions and look at the facts. We can’t send enough money to rescue a continent that is sitting on the majority of the worlds resources and can’t make a buck on it.
“Chris, evil sums it up.
Raise the standard of living, and people have fewer kids.”
Bull. By what means do you measure the willingness of people on another continent to stop having kids when you give them money to support the ones they have? Look at the welfare states around the world and here and in America. Do you see smaller families when they are given money for their kids? No, you don’t. You see a culture born of the gimme mentality that is passed down from generation to generation.
“With microcredit, women can start businesses, get some wealth, don’t have to worry about kids dying, get more freedom, and probably therefore have fewer kids. Good all around.”
Sure. I’m sure the continent is dying for an Abercrombie and Fitch or a maybe a Sears Auto Center. What business do you think they can open that the warlords won’t extort? You can only have so many hairdressers. You can have only so many cooks. We’re not talking people with access to higher education. We’re not talking people with access to education period. They won’t be building factories or employing people with microcredit. Most haven’t even heard of it and can’t use it.
This is a wonderful idea. Let’s rescue the kids. But we know that the tribal warlords and the muslim governments are the cause of the pain and they take most of the money that is sent. Only direct help like Shelia is doing does any good. The problem is that won’t do anything that was suggested for them. Won’t raise their standard of living. Won’t make them employable. Etc. What it does is allows some more child factories to continue to produce more starving kids.
Until you remove the governments and the muslim leadership of the countries that are oppressing the continent, you will have poverty and starvation. Simple as that. No, we can’t go Ann Coulter on them either. As America is being shown in Iraq and Afganastan, invading and killing is a lot more difficult than it used to be.
You get more of the behaviour that you reward. As they plop out more kids to feed, the money will get to a point that it isn’t helping and has to be increased. Eventually it has to max out and when it does a whole lot more will be starving than now.
Aside from one brief mention by Oz near the start of this thread, no-one seems to want to bring up the primary reason why Africa is such an abysmal failure despite seemingly endless money being dumped into it. The reason can be found in the book IQ and the wealth of nations.
In Africa an IQ of 90 is quite high and, to have a modern industrial society, one needs an average IQ of about 100 and preferably higher.
In university I used to party a lot and there were a lot of international students at the university and one thing that struck me then was that the African students weren’t intellectual. We used to have fun drinking together, kickboxing and playing soccer but there was never anything of any intellectual substance discussed. With the Canadian grad students I hung out with we might be staggering drunk but would be arguing over points of quantum chemistry and the relationship of Bell’s theorem to precognition as a couple of random examples of late night discussions.
When I read The Bell Curve about 1995 suddenly everything fell into place and all of those random observations I had made over the previous decades suddenly fit into a harmonious whole. The “international Jewish conspiracy” was the simple consequence of Ashkenazi Jews having a mean IQ of 120 which explained why so damn many of my profs had been Jewish.
The problem of low black IQ’s is the 2000 lb gorilla in the middle of the African aid picture that everyone tries to ignore. As a simple gedankenexperiment think of all of the countries that are completely run by blacks that are a success; if you can’t find any in modern times go back up to 2000 years and find what African empires existed that were as advanced as corresponding European civilizations at that time (Egypt doesn’t count as they weren’t black). I haven’t found any but I’d like to know if anyone has.
Haiti is a country that has had all black rule for over 200 years. The slaves revolted over 200 years ago, killed anyone that was white, and have had a long time to come up with a modern society. Haiti is one of the worlds basket cases and on a satellite photograph it is easy to see which part of the island is Haiti and which part is the Dominican republic.
Rhodesia was once a model for African food production until they got black rule. I suspect that within another decade S. Africa will be following the example of Rhodesia.
One doesn’t need a very high IQ to maintain a small tribal society. Primitive tribal societies don’t do a lot of thinking and rely on tradition. Most people even in Canada don’t use abstract reasoning very much in their daily lives and depend on habitual responses and traditions to run the bulk of their lives. When one sees a difference is when something unexpected happens. Just compare how people reacted in New Orleans when Katrina hit and in a number of midwestern states that got flooded. The situation in New Orleans (mainly black) was one of complete disorder and chaos with no self-organization whatever in the bulk of the population whereas the flooded midwestern states spontaneously came up with groups of people acting together to fight the floods with a virtual lack of criminal activity.
There are a lot of white S. African doctors practicing in the interior of BC and it is amusing to ask them about why they came to Canada. Most of them are liberal and anti-apartheid but they all go on about how S. Africa just isn’t working any more and they can’t understand why. They go on about the increasing incompetence and crime they see everywhere and how they want to get out while they are still alive. The usual response I get is that “things will work themselves out eventually and then I’ll go back”. Only one of the S. African doctors I’ve talked to was aware of the IQ discrepancy between European whites and African blacks. He’s also the only one that said things were a lot better for the blacks under apartheid.
When one gets into groups of people that are larger than small tribal collections, one needs people with greater abstract reasoning powers to run things. I suspect Africa was a far more peacefull place when it consisted of a number of colonies (with the exception of the Belgian Congo).
Every African I’ve talked to blames the problems of Africa on “colonialism”. They also get quite angry when I ask them why former colonies like India, Hong Kong, Malasia and Singapore are doing so much better. I haven’t found a way to bring up Haiti in these conversations yet without inciting violence. I do sense some of the same welfare-dependancy type thinking that I get when talking to dependant American Indians but this is only a small part of the problem.
The concept of race and IQ seems to be a very taboo one which is curious when addressing this problem would probably do more to solve Africa’s problems than anything else that has been done so far.
Democracy won’t help as a population incapable of any significant degree of rational thought will end up electing people like Obama (hopefully the last affirmative action president of the US).
So SheilaG, go ahead and do what you think is right but it won’t make the least bit of difference in the long run. If you were doing the same thing in an African country which was a European colony your actions might have some lasting effect but in a country run by Africans any local benefit you create will be undone by the wetware deficiencies of the people you’re dealing with. I’d like to be proven wrong, but thus far I haven’t found a single counter-example.
In the long run I suspect that the Chinese will recolonize Africa as it is unlikely that any western country will respond militarily to stop the Chinese. China used to import slaves from Africa in the past (although I have read that only castrated male slaves were allowed in China) and it wouldn’t surprise me if the Chinese see Africa as one of their ancient domains.
Posted by: Chris>
Take it a step further Chris. When do Canadians wake up and realize that they are in a multi cultural matrix of cultural bias against themselves – which they have overlooked trying to “save” the third world from itself.
Where do you fit in the Hindu cast system for example? Well of course you don’t know but your dentist does each time he lift’s his eyebrow to your mundane questions. Or what about the fact that chumps with hoodie’s step in your way as you head towards the local market you used to frequent. Yup, Islamic youth gathering their territory to build a no-go zone as exists in much of Europe today.
Illegal flags of Hezbollah or Tamil Tigers rallied at your local city hall and Main Street? No problem its cultural sensitivity and you must obey, because their rights as third world immigrants trump yours! Regardless of the fact that they identify with known terrorist groups that kill your preferred foreign charity recipients for pleasure!
So much for grandpas & grandmas devout sacrificing during WW2. Why did they build a social assistance program, why a Canada Pension Plan? Most immigrants over 65 will receive more tax payer benefits than anyone who has worked their entire lives in Canada.
Yet we continue to bust our own economic bank by throwing money at the third world. Then receive the worst the third world has to offer, including ex Nazi’s and African warlords along their families. CISIS claims publicly that there are over 50 known terrorist cells operating in Canada.
Now how did that come to be?
Posted by: loki>
You said it “the 2000 Lb gorilla”…………..
Everyone knows it, but no one dare say it. At the end of the day actions speak much louder than words.
Chris seems to picture Africa as a vast rural expanse of welfare bums being hunted by warlords. As if nobody in the whole continent worked or owned a business or a farm or anything like that.
Godwin’s Law alert: “It is PRACTICAL. Is is the most practical solution… Turn off the emotions and look at the facts.” Thank goodness we have a praktische loesung then.
For what it’s worth, I am convinced that democracy can’t co-exist with real tribalism, and therefore won’t work right now in most of Africa. Were I a South African, I’d probably hate apartheid and the ANC about equally. Were I a white farmer in Zimbabwe, I’d probably have a picture of Ian Smith on my wall, assuming I still had a wall. Africa’s a mess. Europe was a mess in the Dark Ages.
But you know, I think you’re right, Chris; you’re just not thinking big enough. We’re all in pain. Let’s solve Global Warming and the problem of human suffering all at once and just starve ourselves off, shall we?
It’s kinder in the long run, and it’ll make Diane Francis happy.
loki – Both of your references/authorities do explain a lot. When you remove all other possible explanations but one, and it is the only one left, it might be the one.
Black Mamba – I too think that tribalism is part of the problem. Whatever else is in the IQ argument, even that argument says that there will be folks 2 or 3 sandard deviations out from the norm and they should be able to find themselves in positions of power and make the necessary changes. In fact I have met many of them. The problem is that their culture (including tribalism and he big man syndrome) and their environmnent do not select for higher IQs.
“Raise the standard of living, and people have fewer kids. With microcredit, women can start businesses, get some wealth, don’t have to worry about kids dying, get more freedom, and probably therefore have fewer kids. Good all around.”
Posted by: Erik Larsen at December 15, 2009 10:33 PM
That has to be the dumbest thing I’ve ever read. The only way to slow down the birth rate of impoverished African nations, is to drop the weights out of every male who can’t support a family.
What do you think drove the North American baby boom? I’d have to think it was the higher standard of living, after the war. It wasn’t til the real standard of living dropped, and women had to go to work, that Canadians quit having children. These things get spun in so many directions, people start overlooking the obvious.
Thanks Knight99 – I bet I’ve misread more than one of your posts – good to know.
Oz – I don’t know why I’m so argumentative tonight, but SheilaG isn’t sanctimonious, and not off-base.
And microcredit is totally on topic. And as I said, 95-98% of the loans are repaid. Much better than giving big lumps to governments, and waiting for the crumbs to reach the people who need it.
and blackmamba – I am a schmuck
Hey, SheilaG I’ve got a heart, I’ve got a mind to go with it.
I was abandoned as a child too.
Africa isn’t my problem.
I resent you for implying that it is, and I resent that you imply that if I don’t see it to be my problem that I don’t have a heart because, in your words:
“You may not care about them. That is your prerogative. But I do, as does, anybody with a heart.”
I have my causes, foreign nations and the people that populate them aren’t among them.
So take your judgements and your guilt trips and stick it where the sun doesn’t shine you self righteous harpy.
Additionally, SheilaG, the guilt cards you are playing are the exact same cards that are played, and rather successfully, to coerce other people to socialist causes, first through voluntary action, and then when they get enough volunteers they lobby the government for legislation to force everybody to support their cause.
Posted by: Oz>
Yea, I wouldn’t personally go as far as revoking her good honest work and deeds over a few thoughtless comments.
I will agree full stop, that the “guilt cards” played by the emotional cranks along with their sleazy predator pimps have long run their game out!
It’s strange to me that people can stand in the middle of anarchy and have completely different viewpoints of what’s going on, similar to witnesses at an accident. The fact that intelligent people can chime about cultural and tribal differences in Africa as authorities on the subject but have absolutely no idea what they are truly talking about is amazing to me.
They wear their emotions on their sleeve and their “down to earth” judgments are clouded by their personal ideologies. Take “rape” in Africa for example: It’s been cited several times in earlier thread comments as the horror of horrors over there. Yet when you spend enough time in Africa, you realize that this is typical business as usual in most of its cultures and a widely accepted source of barter. Oh I know how that sounds to us – but there is no surprise to most Africans when stated, unless there is a “sympathetic con” going on. They indeed know our culture much better that we do theirs, so in turn they know which buttons to push and who among us is an easy mark.
The entire problem of Africa is because of western “Do gooders”. People starve and want because of western influence and interference. The more we interfere the worst it will become. The more underdeveloped and third world immigration we fill our own societies with, the worse we will become.
Knight 99 let me try again to make myself understood.
My take on this “finding” (from the article referred to (The data chimes with findings from the World Health Organisation, which said in October that being overweight has now overtaken being underweight among the world’s leading causes of death)) is that the “powers that be” at the WHO are in the process of discovering another global cause that can only be fixed by a UN intervention supported by concerts promoted by Geldoff and Bono. Gosh, the headline even refers to AYDS (the appetite suppressant of the 80’s).
What cause could be more deserving of our tax dollars than contributing to the reduction of the global obesity crisis? (SARC!!!)
And how better to ensure that the problem is solved than to get the world government of the UN to manage it SARC!!!!)
And we all know that our tax dollars given by our government to the UN to be distributed to reduce poverty all go to the poor and none of it disappears in the UN hands of the UN bureaucrat who manages the crisis or the local kleptocrat who governs the country with too many fat Africans (SARC!!!!!!)
I agree with the tenor of your comments, but think your tone has not been helpful.
If my way of speaking has required you to double your meds – my bad and I am sorry.
Oz–
I don’t mind if you don’t give money to Africa. There are a ton of problems in this world, and we each need to give to the ones we feel the most called to. There’s tons of stuff I don’t give to that’s worthy, so I sure hope someone else is giving there. So no problem at all if you don’t feel called to give to Africa.
My problem is that you said that I was part of the problem BY giving to Africa. You insinuated that it was WRONG to give to Africa, and that is what I am reacting to.
You give to what you want to give to, I give to what I want to give to. What’s wrong with that? To say that I’m somehow part of the problem by giving and that we should just leave them alone is where I think you went too far.
If that makes me a self-righteous harpy (in your words) so be it.
But I sure hope that most of Kate’s readers aren’t like that, because I’ve been reading for years and I’ve always enjoyed it. I hate to think I’m in the company of tons of people who think that compassion on an international scale is somehow wrong, even if it’s done on a personal level and not through governments.
Glad to see, Erik and BlackMamba, that I’m not entirely alone. But I must say I thought conservative Canadians were a far more compassionate bunch.
Oz – for what it’s worth, here’s Mohammed Yunus’ famous Grameen Bank. Yes, I realize there’s a picture of him being felt up by Obama. Yes, I realize he’s named “Mohammed”. Yes, I am instinctively wary of anyone endorsed by Jimmy “goofy-tooth” Carter. None of these are amongst my favorite things. But if you’re really interested in this stuff, click the links at the top, especially Methodology.
You might even check out SheilaG’s site while you’re at it. From my impression of you she strikes me as being your kind of person.
Erik – ’twas spite. Artistic envy. You were published first, you are more talented, and therefor I am Salieri to your Mozart.
Posted by: rroe>
A full out apology rroe! As Erik Larson misread me, I obviously misread you.
No med’s – but I am fighting a bit of a hangover today. Anyway it’s been fun venting on some lefty ideology regardless, to bad your sarcasm was misconstrued as real.
BlackMamba–
I think I love you. 🙂
Sheila I’d like to know your take on Dambisa Moyo’s book “Dead Aid”. And what about President Kagame of Rwanda’s policy to become independent of foreign aid within 5 years?
I too have been in Africa. Based on that experience, I think that we do cause problems when we give to Africa – unless it is done right.
My family volunteered and worked in an ophanage. We gave (and continue to give) direct to those in need and did not contribute to any NGO, government department or charity that put itself between us and those in need. But if we weren’t supporting children, I’d be taking a long hard look at the kind of charity I contribute so as to ensure I don’t perpetuate the problem or make it worse.
Black Mamba – I’m kind of a Sussmeyr-ish Mozart, sadly, and you’re more talented. (Cooly blows on fingernails for his own awesome cultural reference)
I love Moyo’s book. Her thesis is that welfare has allowed governments to get stuck in this welfare-dependency mode, killing more people in Africa than if the Western world had done nothing. It has also allowed governments to increase corruption to such a scale that they basically control their populace (Kenya, for instance, has the most corrupt police in the world). And corruption is far harder to fight against than poverty, because there’s a power imbalance, and the people who have power don’t want to share it because they’re getting rich off of it. So not only have western governments encouraged welfare, they’ve encouraged oppression of the populace.
Moyo instead wants to see micro-finance increase, which is what I’ve been talking about.
We give directly to an orphanage (and visit it) too, but I wouldn’t necessarily advise everyone do that unless you have a very good way of ensuring where the money goes. I know lots of Canadians who have sent over $20,000 so someone can buy a bus to transport children in need only to find out that someone built a huge house for themselves out of it. I think to some extent you need to go through some organization with a Board that requires financial accountability. I just try to stick to very small organizations with little overhead, so that I can see where it’s going and make sure that the aim is self-sufficiency, not enrichment of the person who’s running the charity.
That being said, there is amazing work going on in Africa. When I’ve been over there, I leave with such a sense of hope, not despair, because the people we’ve seen are working so hard. We’ve seen 22-year-old men bunched into school desks because they’ve never been to school, so they’re now in grade 9. And they’re trying so hard to learn. And they are learning.
I don’t agree with government aid, and the Kenyans I’d met wouldn’t either. They want to be self-sufficient (as the president of Rwanda wants). If we really wanted to help, we’d stop government aid altogether to try to put a lid on the corruption, and then try to start more micro-businesses. Help people be self-sufficient and kill the corruption. That’s the route for health in Africa.
I guess I’ll be the evil one here. The most compassionate thing we can do is let the kids die. If you save 200 kids, statistically 100 will be girls. Those girls will grow up and put out at least 5 kids each. It’s their culture. Now, you have 500 starving kids instead of 200. What have you gained by your compassion? 300 more starving kids. It’s cruel. It’s terrible, but if you want fewer starving kids, let the current ones go.
Until Africa is allowed to finish its decent into ashes, sustaining it like we are will just add more people to a miserable situation
Sheila – Perfect. I couldn’t agree more. Your last paragraph nails it!
Okay, let’s see – like Erik (curse him! Who’s Sussmeyr?), I find the mood tonight argumentative.
Knight 99 – normally I think you’re groovy. But please don’t – just don’t – put rape in Dr. Evil “quotation marks” (@8:27). I am not a complete naife; I know that the prevalence of rape in Africa is horrifying. It’s an African cultural problem, and how. How does that sync up with ‘The entire problem of Africa’ being ‘because of western “Do Gooders”‘?
p.s. – sorry about the hangover, but Sheila and I are in love and she hasn’t made any “thoughtless comments” that need absolution.
@7:56 – And since I’m apparently going out of my way to pick fights, Knight 99, (and honestly, I usually like you); have you worked or volunteered in a soup kitchen or food bank? I do. Most of the “clients” are mentally ill/alchohlic/drug addicts (no surprise there, I think) who usually throw out half of the food they’re given.
I’ll keep volunteering; but if I could give those meals instead to hungry African kids, I would, in a heartbeat.
Chris – yeah, you’re right, that is evil.
Posted by: SheilaG >
That last comment made your point well.
All the power to you! I suspect that an independent attitude as yours will rally many other independent supporters.
No one likes to be forced to do anything, whether through forced taxation, or guilt saturation with bleeding heart third world stories. Africa is such an oversaturation that has desensitized the western conservative with overwhelming and never ending neediness.
As you well know Micro Finance has worked marvelously in parts South East Asia to improve the lives of the impoverished. The only way for the economies of the planet to sustain themselves is through self sufficiency. Otherwise you have condemned the economies of the world to feeding an exponentially growing illiterate class of parasitic life form. This is a harsh way to view humanity to be sure, but it is accurate nonetheless. Viral growth due to the benefits of a healthy host with no hope of improvement leaves only a pathetic existence of eating, sleeping, breeding and suffering.
Aid will only magnify the third world into a larger third world in a never ending cycle of dependence and poverty only larger and more pronounce with each generation. This is because the checks and balances of natural selection have been removed by western generosity.
So again, good on your endeavors!
Chris–
Intellectually I see your point. I don’t agree with it, but I do think it’s valid, and I think you’ve thought things through.
I guess what I can’t get away from is that those are living, breathing, human beings you’re talking about. And I, for one, refuse to believe that things really are that helpless. It doesn’t take a lot to bring clean water to a village, and that makes such a difference. Micro-business loans don’t cost much, and they make such a difference, too. Maybe, before we write off an entire continent, we should try micro-finance grants and other capitalist (and conservative) efforts that have not yet been tried on a large scale.
Yes, what we’ve done hasn’t been working. But there are pockets of encouraging signs. Perhaps if we replicated those pockets on a much bigger scale, we’d see some real results. And then those millions wouldn’t have to die now, and the offspring they will have wouldn’t hurt so much, either.
Let’s also remember that much of sub-Saharan Africa has suffered from Muslim-Christian wars. Let the Christian nations die off (as you’re suggesting) just gives the militant Muslim nations more of a foothold demographically. So it’s also a matter of our own self-preservation, and not just theirs.
Posted by: Black Mamba>
Nope, not looking for a fight Mamba. Just expressing a few viewpoints mostly because I’m unable to function far from the keyboard today.
I suspect that the last comment I made to SheilaG sums up my overall feelings about western influence in Africa. No sense in repeating. In summary I have nothing against “Do Gooders” but I do believe “the road to hell was paved with good intentions”! As is the case with resource rich Africa.
Again I support SheilaG in her personal endeavors, so no chivalry needed on your part. My overall concern is never Africa or anywhere else for that matter except the preservation of our North American culture and way of life. The defensiveness on my part derives from the erosion of that way of life through the mindless misuse of our wealth by pandering to foreign powers, mostly corrupt.
Knight: “Wow, now there’s some real empathy, national pride and patriotism all rolled up into one neat little package.”
Just watch the people who use food banks on the days their cheques are cashed leaving the beer store carrying a case under each arm, plus the smokes (any kind). If someone needs help, I give it to them personally.
Also I’ve known people who quit working at food banks and and serving food for the needy because of the abuse. They started out with the best intentions but realized they were enablers, not making a difference.
BTW, my will gives a percentage of my income to the Salvation Army in order that they can continue their good work as and where required. I’ll match my empathy, pride and patriotism with yours any day. I’ve been at it longer.
Chris, evil sums it up.
Raise the standard of living, and people have fewer kids. With microcredit, women can start businesses, get some wealth, don’t have to worry about kids dying, get more freedom, and probably therefore have fewer kids. Good all around.
BlMa – Sussmeyr (or meyer) was the guy who finished Mozart’s Requiem after M died. Not as skilled, and some of his stuff is pretty clunky.
SheilaG:
I would never disparage your experience or thoughts as some have. You saw misery and you tried to help; I don’t know how anyone who professes to be Christian could criticize you for that.
And I believe in many of the things you suggest: micro-loans, small scale farms, water wells and irrigation – these are things I can get behind. A study back in the 1980’s showed that one of the best things that could be done for a central African community was to provide it with telecommunications, so that they could be aware of market prices and forces far away. The company I worked for, MITEL, actually developed the “SkySwitch” – a compact phone system (smaller than a dishwasher) coupled with a satellite link that used less than 75 watts of electricity (so easily powered by even older solar technology). But a funny thing happened – the Canadian government made a few grants to African countries to help them purchase these switches, but somehow the purchase orders never arrived. The grant cheques got cashed though.
The combination of tribalism, post-colonial Western guilt, and honest compassion has been deadly to Africa. When Ian Smith ran Rhodesia, it was known as “the breadbasket of Africa”. Now, many people starve, and Mugabe’s thugs rape and pillage at will (as reported in this week’s National Post). The artificial borders imposed by the colonial powers worked when the Europeans were there to impose order and justice. Once they left, the power vacuum and tribal rivalries meant a descent (dissent?) into civil war throughout the continent. And post-colonial guilt meant we sent them scads of money, very little of which was used to feed or educate people, and very much of which was used to feed the bank accounts of tinpot dictators and build armies and airforces of unnecessary size and cost.
Now we have good-hearted people, who see the horror, and feel they need to do something about it. I understand those feelings, I really do, but this is where I part ways with “liberals”. One definition of insanity is doing the same things over and over, and expecting different results. We’ve done the African aid thing over, and over, and OVER, and we get the same results every time – corruption, crime, personal enrichment, tribal slaughter, and the continued general deprivation of the people. More aid is not the answer – tough love is. Get tough, or cut them off. You can bet the Chinese, who are searching for resources, won’t play with kid gloves if they invest in oil plays in Nigeria, and then some local tribe starts disrupting things – the Chinese will send in troops, guns, and planes, and kill indiscriminately to protect their investment. We have, apparently, no stomachs any more (as the Afghan prison nonsense attests) for standing up to anyone, anywhere.
Our policies, no matter what emotion they are based on, have failed everywhere and every time. So of course Bob Geldof asks for more, the drunken Irish sot. I respect what you saw, I respect what you did, and I respect your feelings. But I will personally be damned before I’ll agree to another cent going down that sinkhole.
gellen – I don’t want to get too off topic here – but here’s a story that really bothers me, related to what you wrote.
Dumping milk for the glass bottle refund.
http://gwendally.livejournal.com/408584.html
Stats say one in eight Americans receives food stamps, and apparently one in four kids is a recipient. That to me says the US is in a mess.
I’m sure there is a strange seperate economy with food stamps
Posted by: gellen>
Whoa, back up there cowboy.
Don’t misunderstand that I am all in favor of food banks for the lazy crappers in our society either. I’ve heard all the stories about people showing up at the food bank in Hummers around Xmas.
I was pointing out that there are needy in our society every bit as much as Africa and as a Canadian I believe that charity should start at home first. Again that’s just my belief, do as you may with yours and your money.
Myself I give ZERO to charity. When asked I direct people to the Canadian government which has already deducted mine in the form of tax’s. They in turn distribute my taxes to all kinds of third world countries along with their dictators and corrupt UN officials.
I will “help” those that try to help themselves; this is my belief system which manifests in other ways than government approved charities.
The point I made earlier is directed at people who feel that somehow their charitable welfare pumped into a sinkhole like Africa while neglecting real issues of poverty at home is somehow more honorable. Africa and other destitute nations are nothing without our strength as western nations. When we fail, they will all fail and we are not improving our lot as strong democratic societies anymore, but in decline.
They will fail because Islam and China will not support the Third World as they rise to power. Indeed look who is killing off the indigenous blacks in Saharan Africa, and who is buying up the minerals and resources.
Posted by: gellen>
PS: What makes the difference between the Canadian freeloaders and the African freeloaders that is so unpalatable to you?
At the end of the day it’s all the same – take something for nothing attitudes that the Liberal elite have instilled in modern society.
“Chris – yeah, you’re right, that is evil”
It is PRACTICAL. It is the most practical solution. It is already happening. All we’re doing by sending money is making it take more time and harm MORE people. Turn off the emotions and look at the facts. We can’t send enough money to rescue a continent that is sitting on the majority of the worlds resources and can’t make a buck on it.
“Chris, evil sums it up.
Raise the standard of living, and people have fewer kids.”
Bull. By what means do you measure the willingness of people on another continent to stop having kids when you give them money to support the ones they have? Look at the welfare states around the world and here and in America. Do you see smaller families when they are given money for their kids? No, you don’t. You see a culture born of the gimme mentality that is passed down from generation to generation.
“With microcredit, women can start businesses, get some wealth, don’t have to worry about kids dying, get more freedom, and probably therefore have fewer kids. Good all around.”
Sure. I’m sure the continent is dying for an Abercrombie and Fitch or a maybe a Sears Auto Center. What business do you think they can open that the warlords won’t extort? You can only have so many hairdressers. You can have only so many cooks. We’re not talking people with access to higher education. We’re not talking people with access to education period. They won’t be building factories or employing people with microcredit. Most haven’t even heard of it and can’t use it.
This is a wonderful idea. Let’s rescue the kids. But we know that the tribal warlords and the muslim governments are the cause of the pain and they take most of the money that is sent. Only direct help like Shelia is doing does any good. The problem is that won’t do anything that was suggested for them. Won’t raise their standard of living. Won’t make them employable. Etc. What it does is allows some more child factories to continue to produce more starving kids.
Until you remove the governments and the muslim leadership of the countries that are oppressing the continent, you will have poverty and starvation. Simple as that. No, we can’t go Ann Coulter on them either. As America is being shown in Iraq and Afganastan, invading and killing is a lot more difficult than it used to be.
You get more of the behaviour that you reward. As they plop out more kids to feed, the money will get to a point that it isn’t helping and has to be increased. Eventually it has to max out and when it does a whole lot more will be starving than now.
Aside from one brief mention by Oz near the start of this thread, no-one seems to want to bring up the primary reason why Africa is such an abysmal failure despite seemingly endless money being dumped into it. The reason can be found in the book IQ and the wealth of nations.
In Africa an IQ of 90 is quite high and, to have a modern industrial society, one needs an average IQ of about 100 and preferably higher.
In university I used to party a lot and there were a lot of international students at the university and one thing that struck me then was that the African students weren’t intellectual. We used to have fun drinking together, kickboxing and playing soccer but there was never anything of any intellectual substance discussed. With the Canadian grad students I hung out with we might be staggering drunk but would be arguing over points of quantum chemistry and the relationship of Bell’s theorem to precognition as a couple of random examples of late night discussions.
When I read The Bell Curve about 1995 suddenly everything fell into place and all of those random observations I had made over the previous decades suddenly fit into a harmonious whole. The “international Jewish conspiracy” was the simple consequence of Ashkenazi Jews having a mean IQ of 120 which explained why so damn many of my profs had been Jewish.
The problem of low black IQ’s is the 2000 lb gorilla in the middle of the African aid picture that everyone tries to ignore. As a simple gedankenexperiment think of all of the countries that are completely run by blacks that are a success; if you can’t find any in modern times go back up to 2000 years and find what African empires existed that were as advanced as corresponding European civilizations at that time (Egypt doesn’t count as they weren’t black). I haven’t found any but I’d like to know if anyone has.
Haiti is a country that has had all black rule for over 200 years. The slaves revolted over 200 years ago, killed anyone that was white, and have had a long time to come up with a modern society. Haiti is one of the worlds basket cases and on a satellite photograph it is easy to see which part of the island is Haiti and which part is the Dominican republic.
Rhodesia was once a model for African food production until they got black rule. I suspect that within another decade S. Africa will be following the example of Rhodesia.
One doesn’t need a very high IQ to maintain a small tribal society. Primitive tribal societies don’t do a lot of thinking and rely on tradition. Most people even in Canada don’t use abstract reasoning very much in their daily lives and depend on habitual responses and traditions to run the bulk of their lives. When one sees a difference is when something unexpected happens. Just compare how people reacted in New Orleans when Katrina hit and in a number of midwestern states that got flooded. The situation in New Orleans (mainly black) was one of complete disorder and chaos with no self-organization whatever in the bulk of the population whereas the flooded midwestern states spontaneously came up with groups of people acting together to fight the floods with a virtual lack of criminal activity.
There are a lot of white S. African doctors practicing in the interior of BC and it is amusing to ask them about why they came to Canada. Most of them are liberal and anti-apartheid but they all go on about how S. Africa just isn’t working any more and they can’t understand why. They go on about the increasing incompetence and crime they see everywhere and how they want to get out while they are still alive. The usual response I get is that “things will work themselves out eventually and then I’ll go back”. Only one of the S. African doctors I’ve talked to was aware of the IQ discrepancy between European whites and African blacks. He’s also the only one that said things were a lot better for the blacks under apartheid.
When one gets into groups of people that are larger than small tribal collections, one needs people with greater abstract reasoning powers to run things. I suspect Africa was a far more peacefull place when it consisted of a number of colonies (with the exception of the Belgian Congo).
Every African I’ve talked to blames the problems of Africa on “colonialism”. They also get quite angry when I ask them why former colonies like India, Hong Kong, Malasia and Singapore are doing so much better. I haven’t found a way to bring up Haiti in these conversations yet without inciting violence. I do sense some of the same welfare-dependancy type thinking that I get when talking to dependant American Indians but this is only a small part of the problem.
The concept of race and IQ seems to be a very taboo one which is curious when addressing this problem would probably do more to solve Africa’s problems than anything else that has been done so far.
Democracy won’t help as a population incapable of any significant degree of rational thought will end up electing people like Obama (hopefully the last affirmative action president of the US).
So SheilaG, go ahead and do what you think is right but it won’t make the least bit of difference in the long run. If you were doing the same thing in an African country which was a European colony your actions might have some lasting effect but in a country run by Africans any local benefit you create will be undone by the wetware deficiencies of the people you’re dealing with. I’d like to be proven wrong, but thus far I haven’t found a single counter-example.
In the long run I suspect that the Chinese will recolonize Africa as it is unlikely that any western country will respond militarily to stop the Chinese. China used to import slaves from Africa in the past (although I have read that only castrated male slaves were allowed in China) and it wouldn’t surprise me if the Chinese see Africa as one of their ancient domains.
Posted by: Chris>
Take it a step further Chris. When do Canadians wake up and realize that they are in a multi cultural matrix of cultural bias against themselves – which they have overlooked trying to “save” the third world from itself.
Where do you fit in the Hindu cast system for example? Well of course you don’t know but your dentist does each time he lift’s his eyebrow to your mundane questions. Or what about the fact that chumps with hoodie’s step in your way as you head towards the local market you used to frequent. Yup, Islamic youth gathering their territory to build a no-go zone as exists in much of Europe today.
Illegal flags of Hezbollah or Tamil Tigers rallied at your local city hall and Main Street? No problem its cultural sensitivity and you must obey, because their rights as third world immigrants trump yours! Regardless of the fact that they identify with known terrorist groups that kill your preferred foreign charity recipients for pleasure!
So much for grandpas & grandmas devout sacrificing during WW2. Why did they build a social assistance program, why a Canada Pension Plan? Most immigrants over 65 will receive more tax payer benefits than anyone who has worked their entire lives in Canada.
Yet we continue to bust our own economic bank by throwing money at the third world. Then receive the worst the third world has to offer, including ex Nazi’s and African warlords along their families. CISIS claims publicly that there are over 50 known terrorist cells operating in Canada.
Now how did that come to be?
Posted by: loki>
You said it “the 2000 Lb gorilla”…………..
Everyone knows it, but no one dare say it. At the end of the day actions speak much louder than words.
Chris seems to picture Africa as a vast rural expanse of welfare bums being hunted by warlords. As if nobody in the whole continent worked or owned a business or a farm or anything like that.
Godwin’s Law alert: “It is PRACTICAL. Is is the most practical solution… Turn off the emotions and look at the facts.” Thank goodness we have a praktische loesung then.
For what it’s worth, I am convinced that democracy can’t co-exist with real tribalism, and therefore won’t work right now in most of Africa. Were I a South African, I’d probably hate apartheid and the ANC about equally. Were I a white farmer in Zimbabwe, I’d probably have a picture of Ian Smith on my wall, assuming I still had a wall. Africa’s a mess. Europe was a mess in the Dark Ages.
But you know, I think you’re right, Chris; you’re just not thinking big enough. We’re all in pain. Let’s solve Global Warming and the problem of human suffering all at once and just starve ourselves off, shall we?
It’s kinder in the long run, and it’ll make Diane Francis happy.
loki – Both of your references/authorities do explain a lot. When you remove all other possible explanations but one, and it is the only one left, it might be the one.
Black Mamba – I too think that tribalism is part of the problem. Whatever else is in the IQ argument, even that argument says that there will be folks 2 or 3 sandard deviations out from the norm and they should be able to find themselves in positions of power and make the necessary changes. In fact I have met many of them. The problem is that their culture (including tribalism and he big man syndrome) and their environmnent do not select for higher IQs.
“Raise the standard of living, and people have fewer kids. With microcredit, women can start businesses, get some wealth, don’t have to worry about kids dying, get more freedom, and probably therefore have fewer kids. Good all around.”
Posted by: Erik Larsen at December 15, 2009 10:33 PM
That has to be the dumbest thing I’ve ever read. The only way to slow down the birth rate of impoverished African nations, is to drop the weights out of every male who can’t support a family.
What do you think drove the North American baby boom? I’d have to think it was the higher standard of living, after the war. It wasn’t til the real standard of living dropped, and women had to go to work, that Canadians quit having children. These things get spun in so many directions, people start overlooking the obvious.