“UPS and FedEx are doing just fine. It’s the Post Office that’s always having problems”
145 Replies to “Are Your Health Care Working?”
I’m with ‘Old White Guy’.
Why are you people being so hard on barry? Don’t you realize that laughter is always the best medicine?
I just read a story about Obama getting a historic number (“reported”) of death threats and people are angry and it all started with sara palin and all conservatives are dangerous and they might have guns and for cryin’ out loud shut up…
Well, that’s the basic theme of the story, anyway. The race card isn’t good enough at this point of the losing game so obama’s press department is doubling down and adding the assassination card.
I just read a story about Obama getting a historic number (“reported”) of death threats
If Obama had had the power he has now to screw people’s lives up ten years ago, the number of death threats he is getting now wouldn’t be a new historic high.
Just sayin’.
UPS and FedEx are doing just fine
Really? So that’s why when I buy stuff I won’t let them ship it any way other than USPS? Ahhh, Fedex & UPS are NOT doing just fine – the rural network is non-existent and service is haphazard at best. Don’t believe me, just ask Sean “what can brown lose for you” McCormick.
Can’t a guy get up from the backroom microphone for one minute to use the WC? Geez!
Jason,
I’m very sorry you’ve experienced deaths in your family. What were the deficiencies within our system that you believed the received Zero care?
It’s lousy to go through stuff like that. My Mom suffered a major stroke a few years back. Most of the damage could have been prevented if there was a CAT scanner operating that night, but there wasn’t.
In the end, her suffering, that of our family’s was hugely increased. And the cost in general to tax payers was also greatly increased. All because we won’t spend a fraction more to run a CAT scanner in a fairly largish city 24/7. That’s just plain stupid.
Re respective life spans of Canadians vs Americans, and infant mortality rates in Cuba, goto the CIA World fact book and look it up. Re cost of US to Canada, check out the link I mentioned off the bat, but here it is again: http://bit.ly/14JzGU
You can hunt around the internet, and find slightly different numbers, but generally they are the same. Americans spend around 16% of the GDP on healthcare, where as we spend around 10%.
Oz,
Again… do you deny that the Toronto sky looks like that on a smoggy day? Or Vancouver for that matter, or LA? That image may have been manipulated, but it didn’t show anything that wasn’t true. If they put a UFO in there I could see your point.
Now, as for calling me a liar. Please show which of the facts re healthcare that I’ve stated are lies, and back em up.
Actually, Frances has a point. I worked for Blue Cross Blue Shield of Michigan for a while in 1999. Because of their “not for profit” status, they were required to take anyone who applied. As one of the marketing people put it to me, “The private companies can take the cream; we have to take the sours”. If you can’t reject the people with the pre-existing conditions, it stands to reason that your costs are going to be higher. The net result was that most people felt that BCBS offered a lower quality of care for the same dollars as private insurance, but BCBS was still the largest single insurer in Michigan because of 1) an exclusive contract with the UAW (BTW, this offered a big benefit to any BCBS employee, unionized or not – we qualified for employee pricing from any of the then-Big-3. Nice!), and 2) they were still cheaper than private plans (but didn’t offer anywhere near the same level of coverage).
Everyone is a political terrorist for asking uncomfortable questions to the would be Nobles of the Blue Ball Democratic party. The worst is held in store for actually disagreeing with the O. Watch the tax audits (even though most of his cabinate are tax dogers)flow towards his opponants.
Union boys showing up at private homes.
Of course the big guns the press to ridicule any individuals who are effective.
JMO
While the news of your mom is sad John, why would you blame tax payers for the fact that there was no CAT scanner available. It sounds like the system failed you.
john – what’s your point about the GDP ratio spent on health care? The facts are that with our lower spending ratio, many treatments are not available in Canada, and so, Canadians go to the US for treatment. Therefore your ‘argument’ that our health care is better because we spend less is invalid. We spend less because we get less care!
And john, the agenda of Obama’s health care is not to provide ‘low cost’ health care. It’s been pointed out by the non-partisan Congressional Board that it will cost trillions – and that the US can’t afford it.
And, as Jason pointed out, the private mail companies are not allowed to carry ‘regular’ or daily mail. Got that?
Frances – no, UPS and Fed-Ex don’t cherry pick their services; they provide service where it is needed. A once-every-two-weeks requirement does not require an office. And it’s the same with regular post; in many areas, even small towns, in both Canada and the US, there is no delivery. You have to go to the postoffice yourself to pick up your mail.
As for private health care insurance, again, john, your facts are wrong. Many insurers are legally required to take whoever applies; some are not. So, you yourself select which insurer fits your situation best. In Canada, again, many medical services are not provided – and there’s no option available to get that service.
And yes, in some cases, there is zero treatment available, eg, certain eye surgeries aren’t available in Canada and one has to go to the US for them.
Also, there is zero funding for eye exams every year for those under 65. Gord Tulk has lots more examples. Facts.
The lifespan of US 78 to Canadian 81 are statistically similar. The infant mortality rate of Cdn 5.04 vs 6.26 per 1,000 is in many cases due to the large illegal immigrant population who don’t get medical treatment because they don’t want to be ‘outed’ as illegal..though no emergency hospital can legally refuse them care. you cannot empirically link the infant mortality to the health care system in the US.
As for socialism vs ‘corporate profiteering, as nomdeblog points out, why are you against making a profit? That profit goes back into the company for research and development, for buying new equipment, for hiring new people and to the shareholders who lent the company money. Rather similar to government bonds – which are meant to make a profit as well.
Oh, did you know that socialism has to make a profit? If it doesn’t, then..who foots the bills? Why do you think that the countries that have tried socialism have economically – all of them – failed?
As for Toronto – what’s your point about smog?
And as pointed out, your attempt to link lifespans with health care is invalid, for not only are the ages statistically the same, but you cannot claim that life span is associated only with and caused by one factor. Health care.
So far, you haven’t provided us with any facts that substantiate your preference for socialism, either in health care or economically.
I just watched a story on NBC nightly news regarding this clip. OMG what a JOKE.
They must have screened the crowd for dissenters and asked them to leave.
Propagandized-white-washed BS-FEST.
And Obama has no idea what he’s talking about. It’s true he needs his teleprompter to make any bloody sense.
John;
I think you need to go back and re-read the Supreme court decision a few years back about a Quebec man who sued because of an excessive wait for a hip replacement procedure. They found that Canadians were dying on waiting lists. If I recall correctly, they said that access to a waiting list is not access to health care. Essentially, they found that in far to many cases, the Canadian health care system is a bag of crap. Do Americans pay more for health care. Sure, and they have a much better system, warts and all, to show for it. See Chaoulli v Quebec. Here is a link. http://www.cdhowe.org/pdf/benefactors_lecture_2006.pdf
Wow NBC. Do not make a comment about Obama’s lack of substance, his double talk or the pile of shinola he’s peddling.
No show please show clips of him being coy with the crowd and saying that he is not going to kill “gramma” Jeez that was a cute statement Obama. You’re just a regular joe who talks like regular folks…
And the media wipes the drool from their collective faces.
Awe but shucks! Why should we question Obama?
The media and his supporters will say as they cup their faces in their hands and look at him with adoring eyes batting their eyelashes and sighing in unison)
Barry O admits government programs don’t work!!!
Headline News! Bring on the headlines!!!
… Where are the headlines?? Please?? where are they??
Medicare and Medicaid apparently not enough public options for the US populace oppressed by the evil private insurance companies.
That’s opposed to the good union-labour delivery system of the UPS and CanadaCare.
ET at August 11, 2009 4:28 PM :
I disagree with you that he doesn’t have the intellectual capacity to realise what he’s saying.
Although we like to think of our political enemies as stupid, we must recognize that thety are at least as smart as we. That he can bullshit like he does tells me that he thinks the populace, the great unwashed squawking mass of American humanity, is stupid, and will swallow any stupid sentances he utters, no matter how disconnected from reason.
Sad.
Via Instapundit: Quote from Jon Stewart:
“You know a sales pitch is in trouble when it starts with Look, you gotta trust me, we’re not going to kill your grandparents!“
ET: Poor salesmanship here, what?
Come on ladies, you have all done it. Fallen for a guy who sends a tingle up your leg, only to find out that all he wanted was access to your checkbook and credit rating…
Mr. new at August 11, 2009 4:30 PM
If you do not have a command of English (or French … I am bilingual) then please get someone to review your post before you post it.
health care insurance need to be mandatory in USA like Canada all people have OHIP…ummmm,us mouth-breathing rednecks in AB don’t have OHIP…new ….shove your leftard head just a little further up Mcdimwits butt….he likes that
Sorry for feeding the troll
Momar at August 11, 2009 4:40 PM
When the doctors do not play along, there will, I am sure, be legislation obliging them to take patients from the Government scheme. at a loss. There will be less doctors announcing themselves publicly, but still taking patients privately.
If the public option is self-sustaining, then why is it needed?
It’s needed because no private company will step up to insure some of these people. No private company will do it because it is not self-sustaining. Once they start subsidizing, that in turn will hurt private companies by competing unfairly.
John at August 11, 2009 4:35 PM
John, the only reason medical expenses are so high in the USA is malpractive law-suites. These are not allowed in Canada. If they were banned in the USA, medical expesnses would drop overnight.
Justhinkin, not sure how to take your bizarre post but:
You are wrong.
All Canadians (in Ontario) PAY OHIP, but nmany who have kept themselves healthy do not cash in on it. We have a case of the healthy and sensible subsidising the stupid and unhealthy. How do you think I feel???
Hi Folks.
I’m always a reader but never felt I’d add a whole lot to the discussions but this Bill Maher spectacle from a few months back could be Kate’s juxtapose for tomorrow. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aitvFZTOrp4
Cheers
From what I can gather,
p. 30, of the Health care document says that a government committee decides what treatments and benefits you get. No appeals.
p.50. Covers all non-citizens, i.e., illegal aliens. The US taxpayer will be footing the medical costs of non-taxpayers.
p.65; Taxpayers will subsidize all Union Retiree health plans, such as SEIU, UAW and ACORN. That is, these plans won’t be funded by their accumulated dues payments.
p95. Govt pays ACORN and AmeriCorps to sign up people for this public health plan
p. 145. An employer MUST enroll employees in the public plan. Penalty if they don’t: Tax of 8% on payroll!!
p/102. Those eligible for Medicaid will be automatically enrolled. You have no choice.
p.241. All doctors paid the same.
p. 253. Govt sets the pay scale.
p.167 – any individual who doesn’t have ‘acceptable’ health care will be taxed 2.5% of income.
p/170. any non-resident alien is exempt from taxes. BUT – gets that free care.
p/203; “The tax imposed under this section shall not be treated as tax”.
p.354 – govt will restrict enrollment of special needs individuals.
Isn’t there anything Obama can’t do?
Yes. ‘Reforming’ health care. It will not happen now, just as it failed with the Clintons. There are simply too many parties making huge bucks from the current arrangement. That big money can buy the Congress votes needed to make sure these reforms are DOA.
Nothing to see here folks, move along.
green neck – can you support your opinion that the only cause preventing health care change in the US is that ‘there are too many parties making big bucks from the current arrangement’. Could you explain what these parties are – and what the proposed Obama bill would do to deal with these. Thanks.
RW – exactly – those medical torts are a huge drain on the American health care costs; the Republican proposal to deal with health care would deny them.
ET, you missed the part where they send people around to your house if you have kids or are expecting.
Not making this up, trolls. As reported today by Rush Limbaugh, CHUCK NORRIS, the kung fu fighter/movie star Chuck Norris, says this in his column today:
“It’s outlined in sections 440 and 1904 of the House bill (Page 838), under the heading “home visitation programs for families with young children and families expecting children.” The programs (provided via grants to states) would educate parents on child behavior and parenting skills.
The bill says that the government agents, “well-trained and competent staff,” would “provide parents with knowledge of age-appropriate child development in cognitive, language, social, emotional, and motor domains … modeling, consulting, and coaching on parenting practices,” and “skills to interact with their child to enhance age-appropriate development.”
Are you kidding me?! With whose parental principles and values?”
Well, theirs of course. The government approved principles and values, whatever they may be this week.
See, as Limbaugh said today, kung fu fighter and actor Chuck Norris has done something NOBODY has done at ABCNBCCBSMSNBCCNNNPRNYTimesandetc. He read the bill. And then he reported on what he found there.
Now we have the spectacle of watching Barry “The One” Obama shoot himself in the head through the foot in his mouth. (That’s hilarious Doogie, I’m stealing it.) Somebody at the White House was screaming “SHUT UP!!!!!!!” at the television when Barry said that part, you know they were.
Boy howdy, that Limbaugh is such a RACIST eh? Norris too, who’d a thunk it?
Obama Quote: “It’s very important for us to sequence these big initiatives in a way where they don’t all just crash at the same time.”
I sure hope someone is saving all these…….
Someone mentioned Shouldice earlier, private pratice i believe, in Toronto. The one that Jack Layton went to – and claimed not to realize…yeah right Jack.
ET, I’ll bet you a donut that there’s something in that 1100 pages that removes the right to sue for malpractice or denial of benefits. No way they are going to let people sue the single payer the way they sue the private companies.
The trial lawyers better perk up and start finding out about that, I’d say, because it looks to me like the DemocRats are getting set to cut their legs off.
phantom – I think you’re right.
And how about that rule that companies must enroll their employees in the govt health care plan..not a private insurance one..OR..the company will have to pay a payroll tax! Anywhere from 2 to 8% depending on number of employees!
And what about “After health care goes into effect, private plans can only continue if they don’t enroll new people, don’t change coverage, copays, or coinsurance, and only limited changes in premiums—p. 16
So – how can Obama say that the public plan won’t harm the private plans? Note what p. 16 says..the private plans aren’t allowed TO ENROLL NEW PEOPLE!
And “All individual health insurance must be purchased at government run exchange—p. 19.
This means that you CAN’T PURCHASE private health care as an individual.
Oh, and “Government makes final decisions on what’s covered and what’s not covered in both public and private plans—p. 38
So – the govt is actually intruding on the content of private plans!
It’s insane! For more..just type into your google ‘health care bill p.65’…and you’ll find lots more.
John says “You guys are so insanely oppose to anything remotely resembling socialism that you would willingly bend over for corporate profiteering when you’re sick. That’s not rational.”
Bend over? Well, I’d rather bend over backwards for “corporate profiteering” than bend over forwards for government inefficiency.
I am not off the topic I only read the headling
are you health care covering
I did not listen to tape
I do not understand
how come OHIP cover in Ontario for family doctor
but not in West of Canada
probably Ontario pay more tax to cover that cost in compare with West of Canada
if we have minimum payment cut from tax for OHIP in Ontario
then private doctore avialbe if you like to go higher end and not cover all seeing doctor too
what Ontario did otehr province can do it too
then USA can follow too
public company are see big picuter not good in customer service adn take special custoemrs
private company see both if they are big
small private see more small pictures
This stuff has me really worried as it might result in Canada no longer having a doctor shortage. Where I live now, I could work 16 hours/day 7 days/week and there would still be a huge demand for medical services. If Obamacare resulted in vast numbers of US doctors moving north, then patients here would expect more than a 5 minute visit with a doctor and might actually want to spend time talking about trivial medical issues monthly rather than coming in for their once-yearly visit for all their prescriptions.
Contrary to popular belief there’s a lot of private medicine happening in Canada. The wait to get even a simple overnight home pulse oximetry to test for sleep apnea at my local hospital is about 6 months. Fortunately the local respiratory supply companies have stepped in and offer this service for free with a wait time of perhaps a week if they’re really busy. Good business practice for them; they sell CPAP machines and the more people they can quickly get diagnosed with sleep apnea the more machines they sell. The hospital sleep lab has clock-watching union employees who have absolutely no interest in getting people screened as quickly as possible.
More and more private solutions such as the one above are taking place to bypass a public system that wouldn’t know what efficiency was if it tripped over it.
The current US system does have a major disadvantage of having a huge cumbersome bureaucracy that is incredibly frustrating to deal with. I know of doctors who have left for the US and returned to Canada because they couldn’t handle the bureaucratic BS. A surgeon who was in my med school class described the surgical and diagnostic facilities at the hospital he worked in Florida as an order of magnitude better than at any hospital he’d worked in Canada, but left because he had 5 people working in his office full time just to deal with insurance companies. I suspect that Obamacare will involve a bureaucracy that is far more complex and byzantine than the present one likely “solving” the unemployment problem in the US.
RW:
You say the ONLY reason for high medical costs is legal suits. In a free society you can’t ban medical suits. And I’m not sure you can cap them either, tho I admit some kind of tort reform is needed. HOWEVER, you can make the plaintiff bear some risk by having him/her cover costs if the suit fails. This would have the signal effect of drastically reducing frivolous suits. We’ve discussed this vis-a-vis the HRC kangaroo courts where the plaintiff bears no costs at all.
But legal suits aren’t the ONLY reason. Another is the distorted economic incentives resulting from making premiums deductible only if the insurance is purchased through employer plans, i.e., the company paid premiums are not added to income as a taxable benefit.
Yes, malpractice insurance is a huge factor and some kind of tort reform is needed, but equally to blame is that health care insurance is far too inclusive and that there is zero incentive for the employee to economize on his use of scarce resources and zero incentive for the doctor to recommend less expensive treatments knowing that his patient is cost-insensitive.
What is needed in my view is the separation of health insurance from employment. Furthermore, it would be a good idea to limit health care insurance to catastrophic coverage AND to introduce tax-deductible medical savings accounts to cover the routine stuff. Let’s face it, if you have to draw down your own money, you will be much less inclined to over-use and doctors will be more careful when they are dealing directly with the payor.
What a freakin’ moron. THIS GUY is going to save the US? All of my adult life I have kind of regretted having been born 30 miles too far north to be a US citizen. That ended several months ago…
Go to the health care blog. Google hr3200 and you’ll find it. or..just ‘the health care blog’.
It’s very good in data and analysis.
Or read the whole bill yourself. HR3200. There it is.
And remember, the bill says that the private insurers won’t be allowed to enroll new members in their plans! So, Obama’s statement that his bill allows for a choice of either public or private is..a lie.
John, the health care here is zero when a person on a waiting list dies or suffers more damage because the treatment is months or even years away. I have three family members in the medical world and this happens lots.
Well, new – @ 10:46….. it’s quite simple really. It goes like this … it’s because snakes don’t have armpits! Simple as that. Glad to be of assistance.
The analogy is better contrasted between
1: You hired a specialist for a sercice to your body
TO
2: The govt dictates to the Vet what he will or can do to their chattel property citizen!)
Think about it
The relationship lines are blurred and it does get to become a finger poiting game that never sorts itself out.
Et and phantom: if torte is allowed on the government plan it will be only on the individual doctors not the government. And as a result it will be more competitive than a private operator but still only marginally reduce costs. The trial lawyers will not be denied their rewards.
And yes claims can be limited. Some states do so and in Canada punitive damage claims/awards are much less common. The paying the defenses expenses is also very constructive.
“What the President is NOT saying is that UPS and FedEx do well because they cherrypick the best and most profitable routes, leaving the small towns and out-of-the-way places to be covered by the post office”
Really, I live in Bumf*k Egypt, and I get perfectly good service from UPS and FEDEX, Not so much from DHL, they only come twice a week to this part of the country, but they are cheaper too. WTF is a “route” when it comes to FedEx?
Does anybody else find it amusing that John has such faith in global warming, even though he has admitted to extremely limited knowledge of the subject, and he is also a socialist? I guess that both science and logic are subject to politics when you are a socialist.
“A surgeon who was in my med school class described the surgical and diagnostic facilities at the hospital he worked in Florida as an order of magnitude better than at any hospital he’d worked in Canada”
I have a heart condition, and I travel a lot. I have been in hospitals in Australia, Canada, the US, and the UK. I can’t really complain about my experience in the hospital in St John’s, so I won’t. I think if it was typical, nobody would be complaining about Canadian health care. However, the ambulance in Australia was a modified pickup truck with a gurney and the paramedic’s equipment consisted of a little black bag. An ambulance in the US has more equipment than the ER did in Sydney. Forget about the UK, where I was suffering from gout, probably got from trying to drink with the locals and the NHS was useless. I was there for a month, suffering for the final two weeks, and got a pill in the US from my doctor that made the worst of it go away within a day.
Gord, I have to say I think there is no way in Hell that Obamacare is going to bay the freight for obstetrics/gynecology (OB/GYN) malpractice insurance. The tail on every patient is 18 years, and OBs are absolutely guaranteed to be sued every two or three years no matter who they are or how good they are.
Malpractice for OB/GYN docs approaches 6 figures in some states, that’s the just the annual premium. Tail coverage in some states is simply not available, due to the rate of lawsuits and the size of rewards.
OB/GYN is the worst, but surgeons, pediatricians and etc. are all in the same boat. Malpractice insurance is a major cost to every doctor in the USA, sometimes the biggest cost to their practice.
That’s why it costs ten grand to have a baby in some places. Five hundred bucks for the actual service from the doctors and nurses, two hundred bucks for the hospital room, and the rest goes to insuring everybody in case Junior gets a hangnail when he’s 16 years old.
If I ever predicted anything in life, I can predict that the Democrats will cut the trial lawyers loose like a broke back mule should they manage to ram this thing through. Nor should anyone be surprised when they do.
There is no honor among thieves.
What exactly do you think happens to the 40+ million Americans who have no insurance? You want to talk “wait times”? Try forever.
Say you have a bum knee in Canada. It’s not great, but you can live with it. Say it takes you a year to get in for repairs. That’s lousy, and we should fix it. In the States, if you have no insurance, you will never get that knee repaired unless it totally fails, and even then… they might just throw you a wheelchair.
As for my mom, taxpayers failed her, because the hospital in her area, which serves some 400,000 people, does not run a CAT scan 24/7. No doubt they could use if for both emergency and non-emergency care, thus eliminating wait times.
As for Canadians going south in numbers that would have an impact on the respective GDP averages spent on care, show me some numbers. I have never known a single person who has gone South for care. My bet is the number is so insignificant that it would have virtually no impact on those numbers.
As for infant mortality… you bet your ass it’s connected to how care is delivered. When both our kid’s were born, we had access to an infant hotline. When the kids got sick, doctors MADE HOUSE CALLS. We also had regular visits from public health nurses. This has a huge impact on how babies develop, especially for children at risk, so you have no idea what you are talking about. You simply used that bit to bash immigrants, because rightwingers have a bug up their asses on that issue too.
We’ve had numerous commissions study our problems, and to increase our level of care would be minuscule, but you tightwads don’t want to give up a dime more in taxes, even if it would ultimately save your own life, or that of someone you love.
Irrationality, thy name is conservative. Cripes… if conservatives had their way… we’d still be swinging from trees.
The corporate system of healthcare is not even remotely efficient. It simply lines the pockets of middlemen along the way. I’m all for profits, but not when it means screwing people over, which is exactly what is happening in the US.
I’m with ‘Old White Guy’.
Why are you people being so hard on barry? Don’t you realize that laughter is always the best medicine?
I just read a story about Obama getting a historic number (“reported”) of death threats and people are angry and it all started with sara palin and all conservatives are dangerous and they might have guns and for cryin’ out loud shut up…
Well, that’s the basic theme of the story, anyway. The race card isn’t good enough at this point of the losing game so obama’s press department is doubling down and adding the assassination card.
I just read a story about Obama getting a historic number (“reported”) of death threats
If Obama had had the power he has now to screw people’s lives up ten years ago, the number of death threats he is getting now wouldn’t be a new historic high.
Just sayin’.
UPS and FedEx are doing just fine
Really? So that’s why when I buy stuff I won’t let them ship it any way other than USPS? Ahhh, Fedex & UPS are NOT doing just fine – the rural network is non-existent and service is haphazard at best. Don’t believe me, just ask Sean “what can brown lose for you” McCormick.
Can’t a guy get up from the backroom microphone for one minute to use the WC? Geez!
Jason,
I’m very sorry you’ve experienced deaths in your family. What were the deficiencies within our system that you believed the received Zero care?
It’s lousy to go through stuff like that. My Mom suffered a major stroke a few years back. Most of the damage could have been prevented if there was a CAT scanner operating that night, but there wasn’t.
In the end, her suffering, that of our family’s was hugely increased. And the cost in general to tax payers was also greatly increased. All because we won’t spend a fraction more to run a CAT scanner in a fairly largish city 24/7. That’s just plain stupid.
Re respective life spans of Canadians vs Americans, and infant mortality rates in Cuba, goto the CIA World fact book and look it up. Re cost of US to Canada, check out the link I mentioned off the bat, but here it is again:
http://bit.ly/14JzGU
You can hunt around the internet, and find slightly different numbers, but generally they are the same. Americans spend around 16% of the GDP on healthcare, where as we spend around 10%.
Oz,
Again… do you deny that the Toronto sky looks like that on a smoggy day? Or Vancouver for that matter, or LA? That image may have been manipulated, but it didn’t show anything that wasn’t true. If they put a UFO in there I could see your point.
Now, as for calling me a liar. Please show which of the facts re healthcare that I’ve stated are lies, and back em up.
Actually, Frances has a point. I worked for Blue Cross Blue Shield of Michigan for a while in 1999. Because of their “not for profit” status, they were required to take anyone who applied. As one of the marketing people put it to me, “The private companies can take the cream; we have to take the sours”. If you can’t reject the people with the pre-existing conditions, it stands to reason that your costs are going to be higher. The net result was that most people felt that BCBS offered a lower quality of care for the same dollars as private insurance, but BCBS was still the largest single insurer in Michigan because of 1) an exclusive contract with the UAW (BTW, this offered a big benefit to any BCBS employee, unionized or not – we qualified for employee pricing from any of the then-Big-3. Nice!), and 2) they were still cheaper than private plans (but didn’t offer anywhere near the same level of coverage).
Everyone is a political terrorist for asking uncomfortable questions to the would be Nobles of the Blue Ball Democratic party. The worst is held in store for actually disagreeing with the O. Watch the tax audits (even though most of his cabinate are tax dogers)flow towards his opponants.
Union boys showing up at private homes.
Of course the big guns the press to ridicule any individuals who are effective.
JMO
While the news of your mom is sad John, why would you blame tax payers for the fact that there was no CAT scanner available. It sounds like the system failed you.
john – what’s your point about the GDP ratio spent on health care? The facts are that with our lower spending ratio, many treatments are not available in Canada, and so, Canadians go to the US for treatment. Therefore your ‘argument’ that our health care is better because we spend less is invalid. We spend less because we get less care!
And john, the agenda of Obama’s health care is not to provide ‘low cost’ health care. It’s been pointed out by the non-partisan Congressional Board that it will cost trillions – and that the US can’t afford it.
And, as Jason pointed out, the private mail companies are not allowed to carry ‘regular’ or daily mail. Got that?
Frances – no, UPS and Fed-Ex don’t cherry pick their services; they provide service where it is needed. A once-every-two-weeks requirement does not require an office. And it’s the same with regular post; in many areas, even small towns, in both Canada and the US, there is no delivery. You have to go to the postoffice yourself to pick up your mail.
As for private health care insurance, again, john, your facts are wrong. Many insurers are legally required to take whoever applies; some are not. So, you yourself select which insurer fits your situation best. In Canada, again, many medical services are not provided – and there’s no option available to get that service.
And yes, in some cases, there is zero treatment available, eg, certain eye surgeries aren’t available in Canada and one has to go to the US for them.
Also, there is zero funding for eye exams every year for those under 65. Gord Tulk has lots more examples. Facts.
The lifespan of US 78 to Canadian 81 are statistically similar. The infant mortality rate of Cdn 5.04 vs 6.26 per 1,000 is in many cases due to the large illegal immigrant population who don’t get medical treatment because they don’t want to be ‘outed’ as illegal..though no emergency hospital can legally refuse them care. you cannot empirically link the infant mortality to the health care system in the US.
As for socialism vs ‘corporate profiteering, as nomdeblog points out, why are you against making a profit? That profit goes back into the company for research and development, for buying new equipment, for hiring new people and to the shareholders who lent the company money. Rather similar to government bonds – which are meant to make a profit as well.
Oh, did you know that socialism has to make a profit? If it doesn’t, then..who foots the bills? Why do you think that the countries that have tried socialism have economically – all of them – failed?
As for Toronto – what’s your point about smog?
And as pointed out, your attempt to link lifespans with health care is invalid, for not only are the ages statistically the same, but you cannot claim that life span is associated only with and caused by one factor. Health care.
So far, you haven’t provided us with any facts that substantiate your preference for socialism, either in health care or economically.
I just watched a story on NBC nightly news regarding this clip. OMG what a JOKE.
They must have screened the crowd for dissenters and asked them to leave.
Propagandized-white-washed BS-FEST.
And Obama has no idea what he’s talking about. It’s true he needs his teleprompter to make any bloody sense.
John;
I think you need to go back and re-read the Supreme court decision a few years back about a Quebec man who sued because of an excessive wait for a hip replacement procedure. They found that Canadians were dying on waiting lists. If I recall correctly, they said that access to a waiting list is not access to health care. Essentially, they found that in far to many cases, the Canadian health care system is a bag of crap. Do Americans pay more for health care. Sure, and they have a much better system, warts and all, to show for it. See Chaoulli v Quebec. Here is a link.
http://www.cdhowe.org/pdf/benefactors_lecture_2006.pdf
Wow NBC. Do not make a comment about Obama’s lack of substance, his double talk or the pile of shinola he’s peddling.
No show please show clips of him being coy with the crowd and saying that he is not going to kill “gramma” Jeez that was a cute statement Obama. You’re just a regular joe who talks like regular folks…
And the media wipes the drool from their collective faces.
Awe but shucks! Why should we question Obama?
The media and his supporters will say as they cup their faces in their hands and look at him with adoring eyes batting their eyelashes and sighing in unison)
Barry O admits government programs don’t work!!!
Headline News! Bring on the headlines!!!
… Where are the headlines?? Please?? where are they??
Medicare and Medicaid apparently not enough public options for the US populace oppressed by the evil private insurance companies.
That’s opposed to the good union-labour delivery system of the UPS and CanadaCare.
ET at August 11, 2009 4:28 PM :
I disagree with you that he doesn’t have the intellectual capacity to realise what he’s saying.
Although we like to think of our political enemies as stupid, we must recognize that thety are at least as smart as we. That he can bullshit like he does tells me that he thinks the populace, the great unwashed squawking mass of American humanity, is stupid, and will swallow any stupid sentances he utters, no matter how disconnected from reason.
Sad.
Via Instapundit: Quote from Jon Stewart:
“You know a sales pitch is in trouble when it starts with Look, you gotta trust me, we’re not going to kill your grandparents!“
ET: Poor salesmanship here, what?
Come on ladies, you have all done it. Fallen for a guy who sends a tingle up your leg, only to find out that all he wanted was access to your checkbook and credit rating…
Mr. new at August 11, 2009 4:30 PM
If you do not have a command of English (or French … I am bilingual) then please get someone to review your post before you post it.
health care insurance need to be mandatory in USA like Canada all people have OHIP…ummmm,us mouth-breathing rednecks in AB don’t have OHIP…new ….shove your leftard head just a little further up Mcdimwits butt….he likes that
Sorry for feeding the troll
Momar at August 11, 2009 4:40 PM
When the doctors do not play along, there will, I am sure, be legislation obliging them to take patients from the Government scheme. at a loss. There will be less doctors announcing themselves publicly, but still taking patients privately.
If the public option is self-sustaining, then why is it needed?
It’s needed because no private company will step up to insure some of these people. No private company will do it because it is not self-sustaining. Once they start subsidizing, that in turn will hurt private companies by competing unfairly.
John at August 11, 2009 4:35 PM
John, the only reason medical expenses are so high in the USA is malpractive law-suites. These are not allowed in Canada. If they were banned in the USA, medical expesnses would drop overnight.
Justhinkin, not sure how to take your bizarre post but:
You are wrong.
All Canadians (in Ontario) PAY OHIP, but nmany who have kept themselves healthy do not cash in on it. We have a case of the healthy and sensible subsidising the stupid and unhealthy. How do you think I feel???
Hi Folks.
I’m always a reader but never felt I’d add a whole lot to the discussions but this Bill Maher spectacle from a few months back could be Kate’s juxtapose for tomorrow.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aitvFZTOrp4
Cheers
From what I can gather,
p. 30, of the Health care document says that a government committee decides what treatments and benefits you get. No appeals.
p.50. Covers all non-citizens, i.e., illegal aliens. The US taxpayer will be footing the medical costs of non-taxpayers.
p.65; Taxpayers will subsidize all Union Retiree health plans, such as SEIU, UAW and ACORN. That is, these plans won’t be funded by their accumulated dues payments.
p95. Govt pays ACORN and AmeriCorps to sign up people for this public health plan
p. 145. An employer MUST enroll employees in the public plan. Penalty if they don’t: Tax of 8% on payroll!!
p/102. Those eligible for Medicaid will be automatically enrolled. You have no choice.
p.241. All doctors paid the same.
p. 253. Govt sets the pay scale.
p.167 – any individual who doesn’t have ‘acceptable’ health care will be taxed 2.5% of income.
p/170. any non-resident alien is exempt from taxes. BUT – gets that free care.
p/203; “The tax imposed under this section shall not be treated as tax”.
p.354 – govt will restrict enrollment of special needs individuals.
Isn’t there anything Obama can’t do?
Yes. ‘Reforming’ health care. It will not happen now, just as it failed with the Clintons. There are simply too many parties making huge bucks from the current arrangement. That big money can buy the Congress votes needed to make sure these reforms are DOA.
Nothing to see here folks, move along.
green neck – can you support your opinion that the only cause preventing health care change in the US is that ‘there are too many parties making big bucks from the current arrangement’. Could you explain what these parties are – and what the proposed Obama bill would do to deal with these. Thanks.
RW – exactly – those medical torts are a huge drain on the American health care costs; the Republican proposal to deal with health care would deny them.
ET, you missed the part where they send people around to your house if you have kids or are expecting.
Not making this up, trolls. As reported today by Rush Limbaugh, CHUCK NORRIS, the kung fu fighter/movie star Chuck Norris, says this in his column today:
“It’s outlined in sections 440 and 1904 of the House bill (Page 838), under the heading “home visitation programs for families with young children and families expecting children.” The programs (provided via grants to states) would educate parents on child behavior and parenting skills.
The bill says that the government agents, “well-trained and competent staff,” would “provide parents with knowledge of age-appropriate child development in cognitive, language, social, emotional, and motor domains … modeling, consulting, and coaching on parenting practices,” and “skills to interact with their child to enhance age-appropriate development.”
Are you kidding me?! With whose parental principles and values?”
Well, theirs of course. The government approved principles and values, whatever they may be this week.
See, as Limbaugh said today, kung fu fighter and actor Chuck Norris has done something NOBODY has done at ABCNBCCBSMSNBCCNNNPRNYTimesandetc. He read the bill. And then he reported on what he found there.
Now we have the spectacle of watching Barry “The One” Obama shoot himself in the head through the foot in his mouth. (That’s hilarious Doogie, I’m stealing it.) Somebody at the White House was screaming “SHUT UP!!!!!!!” at the television when Barry said that part, you know they were.
Boy howdy, that Limbaugh is such a RACIST eh? Norris too, who’d a thunk it?
Obama Quote:
“It’s very important for us to sequence these big initiatives in a way where they don’t all just crash at the same time.”
I sure hope someone is saving all these…….
Someone mentioned Shouldice earlier, private pratice i believe, in Toronto. The one that Jack Layton went to – and claimed not to realize…yeah right Jack.
ET, I’ll bet you a donut that there’s something in that 1100 pages that removes the right to sue for malpractice or denial of benefits. No way they are going to let people sue the single payer the way they sue the private companies.
The trial lawyers better perk up and start finding out about that, I’d say, because it looks to me like the DemocRats are getting set to cut their legs off.
I was half-right- someone in the press would make it all about him:
http://ca.news.yahoo.com/s/capress/090811/world/us_obama_death_threats
What a poor victim he is! Never mind his gross errors, some unnamed kooks are after him.
phantom – I think you’re right.
And how about that rule that companies must enroll their employees in the govt health care plan..not a private insurance one..OR..the company will have to pay a payroll tax! Anywhere from 2 to 8% depending on number of employees!
And what about “After health care goes into effect, private plans can only continue if they don’t enroll new people, don’t change coverage, copays, or coinsurance, and only limited changes in premiums—p. 16
So – how can Obama say that the public plan won’t harm the private plans? Note what p. 16 says..the private plans aren’t allowed TO ENROLL NEW PEOPLE!
And “All individual health insurance must be purchased at government run exchange—p. 19.
This means that you CAN’T PURCHASE private health care as an individual.
Oh, and “Government makes final decisions on what’s covered and what’s not covered in both public and private plans—p. 38
So – the govt is actually intruding on the content of private plans!
It’s insane! For more..just type into your google ‘health care bill p.65’…and you’ll find lots more.
John says “You guys are so insanely oppose to anything remotely resembling socialism that you would willingly bend over for corporate profiteering when you’re sick. That’s not rational.”
Bend over? Well, I’d rather bend over backwards for “corporate profiteering” than bend over forwards for government inefficiency.
I am not off the topic I only read the headling
are you health care covering
I did not listen to tape
I do not understand
how come OHIP cover in Ontario for family doctor
but not in West of Canada
probably Ontario pay more tax to cover that cost in compare with West of Canada
if we have minimum payment cut from tax for OHIP in Ontario
then private doctore avialbe if you like to go higher end and not cover all seeing doctor too
what Ontario did otehr province can do it too
then USA can follow too
public company are see big picuter not good in customer service adn take special custoemrs
private company see both if they are big
small private see more small pictures
This stuff has me really worried as it might result in Canada no longer having a doctor shortage. Where I live now, I could work 16 hours/day 7 days/week and there would still be a huge demand for medical services. If Obamacare resulted in vast numbers of US doctors moving north, then patients here would expect more than a 5 minute visit with a doctor and might actually want to spend time talking about trivial medical issues monthly rather than coming in for their once-yearly visit for all their prescriptions.
Contrary to popular belief there’s a lot of private medicine happening in Canada. The wait to get even a simple overnight home pulse oximetry to test for sleep apnea at my local hospital is about 6 months. Fortunately the local respiratory supply companies have stepped in and offer this service for free with a wait time of perhaps a week if they’re really busy. Good business practice for them; they sell CPAP machines and the more people they can quickly get diagnosed with sleep apnea the more machines they sell. The hospital sleep lab has clock-watching union employees who have absolutely no interest in getting people screened as quickly as possible.
More and more private solutions such as the one above are taking place to bypass a public system that wouldn’t know what efficiency was if it tripped over it.
The current US system does have a major disadvantage of having a huge cumbersome bureaucracy that is incredibly frustrating to deal with. I know of doctors who have left for the US and returned to Canada because they couldn’t handle the bureaucratic BS. A surgeon who was in my med school class described the surgical and diagnostic facilities at the hospital he worked in Florida as an order of magnitude better than at any hospital he’d worked in Canada, but left because he had 5 people working in his office full time just to deal with insurance companies. I suspect that Obamacare will involve a bureaucracy that is far more complex and byzantine than the present one likely “solving” the unemployment problem in the US.
RW:
You say the ONLY reason for high medical costs is legal suits. In a free society you can’t ban medical suits. And I’m not sure you can cap them either, tho I admit some kind of tort reform is needed. HOWEVER, you can make the plaintiff bear some risk by having him/her cover costs if the suit fails. This would have the signal effect of drastically reducing frivolous suits. We’ve discussed this vis-a-vis the HRC kangaroo courts where the plaintiff bears no costs at all.
But legal suits aren’t the ONLY reason. Another is the distorted economic incentives resulting from making premiums deductible only if the insurance is purchased through employer plans, i.e., the company paid premiums are not added to income as a taxable benefit.
Yes, malpractice insurance is a huge factor and some kind of tort reform is needed, but equally to blame is that health care insurance is far too inclusive and that there is zero incentive for the employee to economize on his use of scarce resources and zero incentive for the doctor to recommend less expensive treatments knowing that his patient is cost-insensitive.
What is needed in my view is the separation of health insurance from employment. Furthermore, it would be a good idea to limit health care insurance to catastrophic coverage AND to introduce tax-deductible medical savings accounts to cover the routine stuff. Let’s face it, if you have to draw down your own money, you will be much less inclined to over-use and doctors will be more careful when they are dealing directly with the payor.
What a freakin’ moron. THIS GUY is going to save the US? All of my adult life I have kind of regretted having been born 30 miles too far north to be a US citizen. That ended several months ago…
Go to the health care blog. Google hr3200 and you’ll find it. or..just ‘the health care blog’.
It’s very good in data and analysis.
Or read the whole bill yourself. HR3200. There it is.
And remember, the bill says that the private insurers won’t be allowed to enroll new members in their plans! So, Obama’s statement that his bill allows for a choice of either public or private is..a lie.
John, the health care here is zero when a person on a waiting list dies or suffers more damage because the treatment is months or even years away. I have three family members in the medical world and this happens lots.
I have no time for the OPlan and none for the idea that there should not be full freedom of choice (and means) when it comes to health care. But don’t shortchange the Canadian system. This is an old post of mine but it details the outcomes and costs of the US current system and the Canadian system.
Our system is not perfect. But it is objectively closer to perfect than the US system. Largely because our overheads are lower.
Well, new – @ 10:46….. it’s quite simple really. It goes like this … it’s because snakes don’t have armpits! Simple as that. Glad to be of assistance.
The analogy is better contrasted between
1: You hired a specialist for a sercice to your body
TO
2: The govt dictates to the Vet what he will or can do to their chattel property citizen!)
Think about it
The relationship lines are blurred and it does get to become a finger poiting game that never sorts itself out.
Et and phantom: if torte is allowed on the government plan it will be only on the individual doctors not the government. And as a result it will be more competitive than a private operator but still only marginally reduce costs. The trial lawyers will not be denied their rewards.
And yes claims can be limited. Some states do so and in Canada punitive damage claims/awards are much less common. The paying the defenses expenses is also very constructive.
“What the President is NOT saying is that UPS and FedEx do well because they cherrypick the best and most profitable routes, leaving the small towns and out-of-the-way places to be covered by the post office”
Really, I live in Bumf*k Egypt, and I get perfectly good service from UPS and FEDEX, Not so much from DHL, they only come twice a week to this part of the country, but they are cheaper too. WTF is a “route” when it comes to FedEx?
Does anybody else find it amusing that John has such faith in global warming, even though he has admitted to extremely limited knowledge of the subject, and he is also a socialist? I guess that both science and logic are subject to politics when you are a socialist.
“A surgeon who was in my med school class described the surgical and diagnostic facilities at the hospital he worked in Florida as an order of magnitude better than at any hospital he’d worked in Canada”
I have a heart condition, and I travel a lot. I have been in hospitals in Australia, Canada, the US, and the UK. I can’t really complain about my experience in the hospital in St John’s, so I won’t. I think if it was typical, nobody would be complaining about Canadian health care. However, the ambulance in Australia was a modified pickup truck with a gurney and the paramedic’s equipment consisted of a little black bag. An ambulance in the US has more equipment than the ER did in Sydney. Forget about the UK, where I was suffering from gout, probably got from trying to drink with the locals and the NHS was useless. I was there for a month, suffering for the final two weeks, and got a pill in the US from my doctor that made the worst of it go away within a day.
Gord, I have to say I think there is no way in Hell that Obamacare is going to bay the freight for obstetrics/gynecology (OB/GYN) malpractice insurance. The tail on every patient is 18 years, and OBs are absolutely guaranteed to be sued every two or three years no matter who they are or how good they are.
Malpractice for OB/GYN docs approaches 6 figures in some states, that’s the just the annual premium. Tail coverage in some states is simply not available, due to the rate of lawsuits and the size of rewards.
OB/GYN is the worst, but surgeons, pediatricians and etc. are all in the same boat. Malpractice insurance is a major cost to every doctor in the USA, sometimes the biggest cost to their practice.
That’s why it costs ten grand to have a baby in some places. Five hundred bucks for the actual service from the doctors and nurses, two hundred bucks for the hospital room, and the rest goes to insuring everybody in case Junior gets a hangnail when he’s 16 years old.
If I ever predicted anything in life, I can predict that the Democrats will cut the trial lawyers loose like a broke back mule should they manage to ram this thing through. Nor should anyone be surprised when they do.
There is no honor among thieves.
What exactly do you think happens to the 40+ million Americans who have no insurance? You want to talk “wait times”? Try forever.
Say you have a bum knee in Canada. It’s not great, but you can live with it. Say it takes you a year to get in for repairs. That’s lousy, and we should fix it. In the States, if you have no insurance, you will never get that knee repaired unless it totally fails, and even then… they might just throw you a wheelchair.
As for my mom, taxpayers failed her, because the hospital in her area, which serves some 400,000 people, does not run a CAT scan 24/7. No doubt they could use if for both emergency and non-emergency care, thus eliminating wait times.
As for Canadians going south in numbers that would have an impact on the respective GDP averages spent on care, show me some numbers. I have never known a single person who has gone South for care. My bet is the number is so insignificant that it would have virtually no impact on those numbers.
As for infant mortality… you bet your ass it’s connected to how care is delivered. When both our kid’s were born, we had access to an infant hotline. When the kids got sick, doctors MADE HOUSE CALLS. We also had regular visits from public health nurses. This has a huge impact on how babies develop, especially for children at risk, so you have no idea what you are talking about. You simply used that bit to bash immigrants, because rightwingers have a bug up their asses on that issue too.
We’ve had numerous commissions study our problems, and to increase our level of care would be minuscule, but you tightwads don’t want to give up a dime more in taxes, even if it would ultimately save your own life, or that of someone you love.
Irrationality, thy name is conservative. Cripes… if conservatives had their way… we’d still be swinging from trees.
The corporate system of healthcare is not even remotely efficient. It simply lines the pockets of middlemen along the way. I’m all for profits, but not when it means screwing people over, which is exactly what is happening in the US.