73 Replies to ““A mutation of our nation is in progress.””

  1. When you create a spiritual vacuum like in Europe something will have to fill that void. It is what it is being filled with that is so damn frightening. That is what happens when allow socialism to run things. It is their own damn fault.

  2. batb,
    “I’m not an economist, but I suggest that it is J-C values which encourage entrepreneurship, honesty, equality of the person before the law, etc., that underlie the foundations of successful economies.”
    I must wholeheartedly disagree with you. For starters, the Judeo-Christian economy only began to become prosperous by global standards in the late 17th century (generally driven by conquest). Prior to that, Hindu/Muslim India and Confucian/Buddhist China dominated the global economy by some margin – between them, they accounted for over half of the global GDP. Christopher Columbus went looking for India because it was said to be extraordinarily rich at the time.
    In the initial stages, many members of these companies not only settled in those nations, but took up their religions and lifestyles. Scottish historian William Dalrymple offers fascinating insight in his book called “White Mughals” which outlines the lives of the early European immigrants who like todays immigrants, went to new lands to make money. They were the same as today’s breed of immigrants – willing to go wherever the money is. The UAE – a despotic little nation – attracts millions of immigrants from across South and South East Asia, as does Singapore. Many expats in these two countries are white expatriates from Judeo-Christian countries.
    That aside, many non Judeo-Christian countries are making rapid economic advances. The two fastest growing economies – India and China – are anything but Judeo-Christian. The number of expatriates in these countries is also slowly increasing. There are many Americans working in cities like Shanghai and Bangalore. India and China have more than their share of entrepreneurs. The link with J-C values is superfluous at best.
    “when immigrants are put on welfare and have all of their expenses paid’
    I have heard this often, but I have never seen any statistics on it. My own understanding is that the Canadian immigration system is a points-based system that awards those with more skills. What percentage of immigrants end up on welfare relative to the ‘native’/’white’ (however you define it) population.
    I ask this question in complete earnestness, since I have never seen any statistics on the matter. You may well be right. Or wrong. I know there are some famous examples – the Khadr’s for instance, but ar they representative of all immigrants? More crucially, are is the proportion of immigrant welfare recipients higher than proportion of native-Canadian (not aboriginal/Indian) welfare recipients? I would be surprised if the difference in proportion is more than marginally different.
    Sure the Khadr’s piss me off. I would love to share a piece of my mind with the immigration officer who let them in (under the investment scheme no doubt). But by and large, I find most immigrants to be a very motivated lot – after all you need a certain level of motivation to pack up your life and move and set yourself up on the other side of the world. Can you identify and stop the ones who are coming here to exploit the system? The points=based system was meant to rectify that.

  5. Sylvain 7:19 –
    If you’d ever heard William Dalrymple speak, I doubt you’d call him a Scott.
    Are you familiar with Theodore Dalrymple (real name Dr. Anthony Daniels, NOT the guy who played C-3P0), my favorite living essayist, terribly conservative and all that? Well someone I know went recently to see William Dalrymple give a lecture. Afterwards, she asked him if he was related to Theodore. “Oh” he drawled (she did an impression, so I know he drawled), “THAT right wing horror story!”. I think he’s considered a joke as a historian (see Robert Spencer, who calls him something like the Barbara Cartland of Mughal India, and believes he’s a shill for radical islam), although I admit I’ve never read his stuff.
    That aside, the debate about about Judaeo-Christianity and economic culture is an interesting one.

  6. Let us see now.
    Western European culture is currently built on the base of tolerance that is rather relative to whom it is applied to, like there is much less tolerance for the Slavs and eastern European in general. Them people are way behind the times, they have not succumbed to the false tolerance idea.
    They are very much self-absorbed with problems at hand to catch up with the rest of Europe and thrash the remains of totalitarian systems, just so they eventually can end up more or less with what they thought they have left in the dust of history never so be seen again.
    Some of the smaller nations are forced by the likes of France and Germany to conform to their ideas of tolerance. This tolerance is, if you can imagine, is bend over backward and get your head firmly stuck up your ass. Now you have a situation of see no evil, hear no evil, never mind it stinks, just put your thumb and index finger on your nose and squeeze. The odor problem is solved.
    It seems that the most of the Europe of the western part had colonies and now they are so seriously sorry to have done it, their politicians are prepared to sell the population, that seem not to be connected to the events around them, for the word of a mufti.
    The selection of the new man in charge of NATO seems to be courageous in the extreme, considering the mentality of the politicos of the alliance. Is it that the smaller nations in Europe have to show the way of saving their sorry asses?
    The French are mostly interested in either, their mistresses or being a mistress of someone with a lot of cash.
    The Germans are afraid to say anything at all just so that their past is not brought up and poured on their collective heads.
    The English are so warm and fuzzy; Churchill is wandering in his grave what the hell happened to his countrymen.

  7. Sylvain, I can’t answer all of your questions.
    However, it’s interesting, isn’t it, that when white J-C types go to other countries for economic reasons, they are expected to live according to the cultural norms of the country in which they are living. In the UAE, all women must wear head coverings and ankle-length skirts when in public and there is certainly no liquor consumption, except in the privacy of one’s own home, if that.
    On the other hand, when immigrants come to Britain, Europe, or Canada, they are pretty much allowed to do whatever they want: They can wear whatever clothing they want, they can demonstrate about political issues in their countries of origin which have nothing to do — or should have nothing to do — with the politics in their adopted country, they can have their native tongue taught to their children in Canadian schools under the “auspices” of “Heritage Languages,” all paid for by the Canadian taxpayer, and if they are offended by anything said by someone or written in the MSM they can go to Canadian Human Rights Commissions to have their grievance heard, which is also paid for by Canadian taxpayers if the CHRCs decide to hear the case.
    None of these freedoms (or, lately, excesses of freedom) exist for Canadians, Europeans, or British individuals who travel to the countries you mention. There is no equivalency argument here. Let’s face it, massive immigration in the recent past has been from countries without individual freedoms to countries where freedom of the individual and the rule of law are the norm. And, ironically, we are seeing less of both.

  8. You may remember that Alexander the Great was famous for the conquest of the barbarians. Today politicos are probably sorry for that.
    They may be more interested, however the optics are, in Alexander’s tolerance and magnanimity. His fame is as much due to the conquests as for his tolerance for the conquered, their religious practices and their peculiar practices of prostrating and such.
    These were offensive to Greeks, though Alexander thought they were cool.
    Perhaps the European politicos, to be looked with favor of history, don’t really give a flying f***k about the people they represent as long as the Islamic history will be favorable to them.

  9. I should also point out, sylvain, that when North American, British, or European Christians immigrate to the UAE or other ME countries, they are not free to worship in public, nor are they free to build Christian places of worship, whereas Hindus, Buddhists, Muslims, Jains, etc. are free to worship in North American, British, and European countries and even have their religious rights enshrined in the constitutions/charters of these countries.
    Don’t you see a double standard here?

  10. The sooner the people of the world do away with all religion the better.
    That’ll give us more logical reasons to fight and hate each other.

  11. batb,
    Dalrymple’s extreme interest in the Mughals has earned him considerable disdain from many critics who tend to see him as an apologist of sorts for daring to praise the muslim mughals. I don’t see him as such, particularly in light of his wonderful book on the plight of Christianity in the Middle East – wherein he records the history of the various Christian monastries in Turkey, Lebanon, Israel, Egypt, Syria etc. He minces no words about the damage Islam has inflicted on those Christians, and it is a book that has won him few Muslim friends in that region.
    In India, Spencers claim about his being left-leaning notwithstanding, he enjoys access to some of the most prominent leaders across the spectrum. Indeed, he is one of very few foreigners to have been entertained by the Maharani of Gwalior – an out and out Hindu nationalist who led one of the most bloody anti-Muslim riots in India in 1992. He is widely considered as an objective commentator and his interest in the Mughals has little bearing on his contemporary political outlook. His admiration for the Mughals results in considerable criticism, but Spencer et al play a guilty by association card that does not reflect Dalrymple’s admiration for Akbar (who created his own religion and was considered a heretic by Muslims) and his open disdain for the fundamentalist Aurangzeb (whose father, Shah Jahan, was 3/4ths Hindu). As a commentator on the region, I have learnt to overlook his Mughal leanings and have found his commentary to be particularly astute – after all, this is a man who was often invited for one-on-one afternoon teas by the foreign minister of the previous right wing government.I suggest you read his work, and then judge him. Spencer has a reactionary habit whenever anybody praises anything associated with Islam. I don’t think Spencer knows much about the Mughals.
    “In the UAE, all women must wear head coverings and ankle-length skirts when in public and there is certainly no liquor consumption, except in the privacy of one’s own home, if that.”
    Clearly, you have never been to the UAE. Those rules may stand for fundamentalist Sharjah, but they do not stand in the economic hub of Dubai, where alchohol pours freely in all the hotels, and the “Russian Beach” is famous for its bikini clad women. That aside, foreigners are expected to do one thing – not criticize the local system of government, or the leader.
    Indeed your argument only serves to strengthen my point. People don’t care about the overall values. They do care about money. White expats are willing to make sacrifices regarding their political beliefs and religious beliefs in order to make financial and economic gains.
    “There is no equivalency argument here. Let’s face it, massive immigration in the recent past has been from countries without individual freedoms to countries where freedom of the individual and the rule of law are the norm. And, ironically, we are seeing less of both.”
    Ah I see the problem. You misunderstood me. I am not saying that the UAE is equivalent to Canada or the UK. I do not believe that at all. I am merely pointing out htat people are willing to immigrate there simply for economic reasons. Indeed prior to September 11th, the UAE had a huge white Christian expatriate population, the majority of which has stayed on (at least until this economic crises kicked in). They do not care about the values there. Americans were all over Saudi Arabia, which is far more conservative, until recently. I am arguing that immigrants are not concerned about cultural, religions or political values – their primary concern and motive is economical. They go to countries where they can become wealthy, regardless of other prevailing attitudes in those coutnries.
    Judeo Christian or Islamic values is a secondary concern for the vast majority of immigrants. Economic gain is the primary motive. People aren’t immigrating because of Judeo-Christian values, they are immigrating here because they seek to improve their economic standing.
    I am NOT saying that the UAE or Singapore is equivalent to the west in terms of culture and quality of life. However, they do offer a competitive economic incentive that has seen a sizeable Canadian population move to these countries despite the prevailing cultural attitudes there – remember William Sampson in Saudi Arabia? They attract immigrants not because they are seen as equal to Canada, but rather becuase they represent a realistic shot for immigrants to improve their economic standing. Do you get what I mean.

  12. Its like the movie Mars Attacks. We keep seeing Muslims crying “We come in peace”, Where the Religion of Peace”. While killing all around them. Infiltrating western institutions. Buying politicians. Stealth Jihad all the time.
    Yet where the bad guys. Give me a break. Immigration by Islam in an Islamic context is invasion period. The Koran encourages this line of attack. While practicing war from afar in the guise of terror towards the infidels.
    The world has become a slaughter house of Islam. Yet where to turn blind eyes to evil because its a Religion according to the UN. More like a Barbarian horde. Notice no other Religion is mentioned. When the Obama bowed to a King of Islam, he sealed Americas fate.
    JMO

  14. I’ve posted this on earlier threads, but some time has passed and, since some on this thread are interested in the link between Christianity and economic success, let me post this again:
    The Victory of Reason: How Christianity Led to Freedom, Capitalism, and Western Success by Rodney Stark (Author)
    “Stark contends that Christianity is a forward-looking religion, evincing faith in progress and in its followers’ abilities to understand God over time. Such a future-based rational theology has encouraged the development of technical and organizational advances, such as the monastic estates and universities of the Middle Ages. Stark contends that these developments transformed medieval political philosophy so that democracy developed and thrived in those states, such as northern Italy, that lacked despots and encouraged moral equality. Stark concludes by maintaining that Christianity continues to spread in places like Africa, China and Latin America because of its faith in progress, its rational theology and its emphasis on moral equality. While some historians are likely to question Stark’s conclusions, his deftly researched study will force them to imagine a new explanation for the rise of capitalism in Western society.”
    http://www.amazon.com/Victory-Reason-Christianity-Freedom-Capitalism/dp/1400062284

  15. I’m enjoying the to/fro between barb/Sylvain, (as an aside, my wife & I guffawed at Momar’s post…how could that NOT be recognized as humor?); having spent most of a decade in Saudi Arabia I think that a clear differentiation should be made between those going from ‘the West’ to such places, and those coming to the West.
    For the former, who are certainly not considered ‘immigrants’, it’s a temporary, (albeit sometimes an extended temporary, but temporary nonetheless), situation based solely on the employment requirements of the ‘host’ country; no citizenship is offered, (nor generally desired), no permanent residency is available, and ‘rights’ are negligible compared to those of the ‘natives’, and once employment is discontinued so is the temporary residency.
    For the second group it’s quite often the absolute reverse, all rights & privileges are extended on an almost immediate basis; (I had an, over a coffee conversation, about this with a Pakistani-Canadian friend in Riyadh, who said “That’s just the way it is”, and he was correct, ‘we’, collectively, make our own beds and our own rules. Perhaps we should pay more attention to the making of them.)

  16. Thank you, Revnant Dream, felis corpulentis, and Nemo2, for helping make the point I’ve somewhat been floundering with.
    You seem to have misunderstood the gist of my argument, sylvain. Of course “People aren’t immigrating because of Judeo-Christian values, they are immigrating here because they seek to improve their economic standing.”
    And what are the pre-conditions in the West that help massive groups of immigrants “improve their economic standing”? They are the rule of law and equality before the law, they are “the development of technical and organizational advances” and the establishment of public institutions such as universities, schools, and hospitals THAT ARE OPEN TO ALL.
    That’s the point I’m making. It is the underpinnings, the foundations, of a democratic society, which have been established by Judeo-Christian values and principles, which have made our Western democracies desirable for immigrants. In our countries they enjoy individual rights more often than not non-existent in their countries of origin — all because of our particular form of democracy made possible by our foundational Judeo-Christian values.
    Ironically, the West itself, totally aside from what massive immigration by populations who do not adhere to J-C values is doing, is trashing these values. The axe has been put to the root of the tree by our own G*dless, secular humanist, social engineers.
    And France is a prime example of what I’m talking about.

  17. Can you imagine what the world will look like in 25-50 years time….Europe will be in chaos with the Muslims and to a lesser degree in USA and Canada. The end times are a coming…real quick..

  18. Every actions results in an equal and opposite reaction—-in physics and geo-politics.
    There is a distict probability that these violent outbursts by the non-caucasion(muslim) immigrants will incite a violent backlash.
    European society at it’s base is extremely nationalistic and racialy motivated. Although recent leftist/PC ideology has spawned this demographic crisis—the leftist/PC supporters may be the first to hang from lampposts.
    The demographic reality is not that the immigrants will attain a political majority but rather that the immigrant demographic is younger than the aboriginal europeans.
    The old saw that my enemies enemy is my friend could produce a unity in Europe which crumbled with the collapse of the USSR and it’s imminent military threat.
    IOW civil war throughout Europe.

  19. There seems to be some confusion over the movement of peoples and cultures. Can we take a hint from recent history in Iraq and the defining element of the surge? The goal of any government is to provide security, a security which we take for granted. People migrate here because of security – physically and economically – and the prospects for continued security. That is why Mexican immigration to my country has slowed to a trickle – they perceive a double whammy – few jobs, and growing hostility. Hostility two ways: as they attempt to get past the US’s traditional ‘new immigrants challenge’…organizing and successfully completing the undercover desert penetration exercise. Increasingly more and more difficult, now that blokes in Oz’ pubs keenly monitor the border*. The second wave of hostility I leave to the reader, but it involves audience creation by wealthy specialized media.
    Perhaps our Governments have tricked themselves into a self – destructive mistake. In efforts to appease a militant minority solely for the sake of calm and the appearance of security (respectfully ignoring any campaign cash, etc. that just might be involved), they suspend the very rights that enabled those governments to establish credibility, thus control, in the first place.
    It’s really perceptions, after all, and I perceive that guns and ammo retailers are swamped, and unemployment is soaring to new highs.
    *http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2009/mar/23/texas-mexico-patrol-webcam-australia

  23. I don’t practice any faith but if I were immigrating Muslim I would ask myself these questions.
    ‘What made my new country so appealing in the first place? By holding on to beliefs from the homeland will I be harming my new country?’

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