The recent announcement by Stephen Harper that Canada is for all intents and purposes out of Afghanistan come 2011, has raised some eyebrows. My views, which I admit are harsh, can be found at Celestial Junk:
All these valid concerns though, have little to do with PM Harper’s choice of words and choice of timing in announcing that we are out of the fight in 2 years. His words do nothing to get NATO to step it up; they do nothing but reduce morale within the forces, they shock and hurt the families of those who have died fighting, and most important, his words give greater comfort to the Taliban than Jack Layton ever could.
The Torch, which is likely Canada’s most level-headed military blog, has a wealth of opinion:
It’s important, right up to the time that I have to win an election
A modest Middle Ground Proposal
Brits Struggling With the Long Term
Whether to stay with the fight or pull out is not a simple question … in fact, it’s incredibly complex. The ramifications of either fight or flight are enormous … and neither is pretty. At the extremes there are those who scoff at the notion that the Afghan conflict is even winnable to those who’d simply nuke the whole region. Neither of these viewpoints offer anything constructive.
Appeal to experts can also be faulty, simply because there are too many self-styled experts, from Muslim talking heads to think-tanks with agendas. Often, the most valuable input can be found among the more lowly, like the LAV gunner who’s on his 3rd tour, or the Kandhar female doctor who loves her country so much she is willing to risk all. Journalists are usually of little help simply because most of them have proven to be as agenda driven as the most raucous of bloggers. There are rare exceptions like Michael Yon, who deliver the good, bad, and ugly with frankness … but they are rare and outside the mainstream. Experts who are “elected” of course, are driven by the pack and seldom … if ever … show the courage to go against the mob.
Perhaps, it’s actually a very simple issue … all about Will.
Hans: Harper choosing this time and place to make his statement is about the election … nothing else. Quebec is strongly anti-war … so he tied down the vote.
if you mean you went there for try how to hold the weapon and or how to tie your bootes and use area of desert or grass for army pratice for your coffee break to Canadina know what the army means is short term again that is I agree that is reason
if you try to say you try to stop the war or help the poor and rebuilt the afganista as we did not any sign I do not agree with
this is like you tell small child i am going to buy you ice cream and later by the money and you go and buy your self the platic gun and when you back say the ice cream store was closed I buy toy for you and small kid seat and cry ask for ice cream not the gun
those poor need money not the gun they already got it from Taleban
taht is trick Harper and other even Liberal was involve with it too I know
but for continue old trick is like let BUSH continue antoher 4 more year that is no way
Mr. Harper must change old way or may need to go fidn new job in political seat and let some one else to run the country seriously
Canda can help and use Afganstan in so many way but they hate them not like to do any work to help them just want their time talbe finsih and back home we finish 8 years but what job ? no answer they do not even know why wnet there by trick of USA adn tehy donot know why do not do good job and why not change the strategic plan to at least if they stock for other 4 years at least let use teh time in proper way
Harper’s lost my vote. I’m with AtlanticJim. Canada deserves Dion. The Great White Waste of Time.
As I said in a previous post:
I agree with PMSH as well. Pull out in 2011, but with a “we’ll be back” warning.
After ten years in Afghanistan, which was preceeded by about 8 years in the former Yugoslavia, the CF – for lack of a better term – is tired.
During any offensive operation, you use up men and materials, and a strategic ‘pause’ is necessary to reconstitute your forces.
I see withdrawl of combat troops in 2011 as the beginning of a reconstitution phase, where we can return home, repair and build up equipment, rather than buying anything in a hurry (remember the usefulness of the G-wagons?) But most important a long period to train and retrain the troops.
After a period of about 4-5 years to reconstitute our forces, the persons who had last been in Afghanistan as Privates would be going back as Master Corporals, leading their sections; the platoon commanders would be going back as Company Commanders, and so forth, all with better equipment that they are better prepared to use – rather than learning the hard way in battle.
So yeah, coming home – to rebuild – and then go back, if necessary, can be useful.
Let’s just hope more of our NATO ‘allies’ step up to the plate to do some of the dirty work. After watching us from the sidelines, they know it can be done, they need the WILL! Let’s hope they get it.
(New stuff)
Part of this reconsitution of forces would be to spend on things that we just haven’t had enough disposable budget to use, since the financial cost of being there is so high.
We’ll be able to get those subs of ours fixed and into the water sooner; more soveriegnty patrols in the north – and we can’t be certain that there won’t be a military threat there – Russia is just over the pole, and China needs resources. A study of China’s history shows that if there was something they wanted or needed from a neighbour that they couldn’t buy, they would take it.
What really needs to be done is an expansion of our Forces. Add at least one more Regular Force Brigade to respond to a domestic emergency. We need more than just Alert as a constantly occupied base in the north. Put some small bases like Alert at each end of the north-West Passage.
Before anyone says it, I know that the Libs and Dippers would be against additional spending and expansion of Forces, if it doesn’t benefit whatever their meme-of-the-day is.
(Recently retired Major – 4 years infantry, 17 years logistics)
Sarge….with all due respect…dealt with you logistic types before.You think it is YOUR money you are spending to back our forces,not the taxpayers.Here’s a hint for you.Stop spending your divisions money on trips and parties for you and your politicos at the end of the fiscal year just to protect your budget amount,and try sending it to where it is really needed,the troopies in the field.
“Today, we find much of western society almost unwilling to go to war at all. Massive casualties, on either side, are very much considered unacceptable. War-like activities are given creative new terms like “peace-making” and “police-action” to hide their true nature. This absolute aversion to warfare and even the suffering of one’s enemies is certainly a novel and very modern concept. Hardly more than 60 years ago, our society was willing to rain down explosives, firebombs, and nuclear weapons on non-combatant enemies, killing hundreds of thousands. Today, the deaths of a handful of non-combatants in combat can inspire the citizenery to topple whole governments.”
“While this enlightened, post-modern aversion to warfare may seem a noble and principled idea, it is unlikely to stand for long against the tide of modern day barbarians that have no such qualms.”
Exterminat the Taliban.
You can NOT allow STONE AGE BARBARIANS get any degreee of legitimacy, in a world as complex as the one we find today.
Repeat: stone age ideals are OUT, period!!
98% of the Afghan population are Stone Age Barbarians. Even if we slaughtered them all, there would still be 1.3 billion low-intelligence, ultraviolent Islamosavages left to deal with in the world. The Islamic threat to Canada and the West is from the millions of death-cultists we have so foolishly allowed to immigrate to our societies, not from pathetic, Fourth World nations like Afghanistan.
Either we stop Muslim immigration altogether, or condemn future generations to dhimmi-status in a fully Islamified Western world. The Muslim population of the Greater Toronto Area is approaching 10% of the population and will not stop there. If we are serious about fighting the radical Islamist threat to Canada, then our troops should be redeployed from Kandahar to Scarborough, Rexdale, Brampton, etc. Don’t laugh, because it will eventually come to that if we continue to import an estimated 200+ Muslims every single day.
the parliment of canada decide the withdrawl would be in 2011.
i missed the d. pay attention, stephen harper did not decide on his own to limit our action to 2011. it was agreed on by parliment
Justthinkin (but not too hard)
You’ve missed the point. Money saved while we’re not involved in combat ops after 2011 will be used to rebuild the parts of the Forces that have been neglected during our involvement there, and we should/would be well prepared to go back. While the US, the UK, Australia will do their part and more when needed, I haven’t much faith in many NATO countries to step up.
There is a new-old Cold War on the horizon, we must be prepared for it. And we may be facing more than one opponent in this Cold War. Russia is flexing its muscles again; China needs to expand its resource base; and of course there is the Caliphate. Did you miss the parts about raising a new Regular Force Brigade? Building new bases in strategic places? Getting stagnant equipment repaired? Capital purchases?
There will be no peace dividend. Don’t expect it.
As for your opinion about my branch, units I’ve worked with never had the money for ‘parties’ on the taxpayers hook. The closest thing to ‘parties’ was when a two week or longer field ex would end a couple days early. Luxury was access to a flushing toilet or a real shower while training, not a three day work week.
There might be a new cold war on the horizon, but we have a real war going on right now. Winning it should be the priority. This is no time for Canada to move to the sidelines.
what do you want to do You Canadain soldure who barly know how to handle the gun in your hand
we have so many conflict remain in Middle easat and ASIA that not job of Candain to get involved again USA tried to get advantage of Canadian that their dollar goes down
we have potentioanl 5 conflict still not solve in area that existing of Candain may enter them to more conflict and USA use this time conservative Canda to fight them not Americanby choose Demorcate witht his way USA come up an Canda ecomnoy will go down as these resule
1)
Do you know if Russia get motive with New Miss USA Palin to atttack more as their talk made them use Nato and Georgia
if Russi go to war
2)
if Isreal look for revenge of Iran to use nuclea weapn as key to bother Iranina ass for reveng of Iran like to kick ass of Sahinosim in Isreal who use race and national notrealy Jewish relgion to steal land in Isreal, still USA-Isreal-England vs. Iran-Palstin and Sauriah war is pontential never ended story exist
3)
if Pakstian and Indian nuclea and Hindo matter come up more between Muslim and Hindo
4)
if China and Budisom against West war come up
5)
threat of USA and Russia old war as reveng of each otehr
http://www.nationalnewswatch.com/
this is headline of all topic about army in Afganstan and other today poltic debate in Canada
still so many questions not answer or not convincing answet to that becuase they do not know also poltician parties are more than
of fight French and English and Quebec and Ontario
should focus to main issue to talk I already mentioned in my other comments
Does Stephen Harper get all of his talking points from Barack Obama now?
I can’t wait to hear what he has to say about “human rights” in Canada when he finally gets around to it.
From all that I’ve heard, Canadian soldiers are as courageous and as competent as any in the world and they’ve proven this in Afghanistan. I’m sorry for them that the best leader available is such a poor reflection of their courage and good character.
Exactly Mike.
With one quick statement, the sacrifices of the men and women of the Forces for the last 7 years and the sacrifices they will make over the next three years have just been completely negated.
Looks like the Taliban win on the weak kneed statement of a disgrace to this country.
Under the circumstances, I agree with the pullout.
There is no way of winning any war in Islamic countries without dealing with the ideology. Political, supremacist Islam must be separated from the state and schools in order to create real and lasting change, otherwise, unfortunately, any benefits will only be temporary.
Historically, this lesson was learned after WWII, in Japan, with regards to Shintoiism.
IMO, the best way to deal with Islam is to end Muslim immigration, containment (as was mentioned earlier), severe economic pressure, and the development of fuel sources not dependent on the M/E.
Otherwise, this will indeed be a never ending war of attrition, which, given Muslim birth rates, we may very well lose.
As horrible as it may sound, there is no sense in one of our soldiers dying, when, at the same time, another radical Muslim, or two, or three is born.
The ideology of Islam is not understood correctly and worse, being ignored and whitewashed by western governments, much to our detriment.
Attaturk’s Turkey stands as proof, yet it still takes the military to enforce separation of ideology and state. And currently, the military is losing. Horrible Islamic motivated atrocities continue to plague the country.
All I know is if Dion was the only person vying for the leadership,I still wouldn’t vote for the dweeb.He’s the modern day Trudeau with his NEP policy.Seems that there are a few here who seem to forget the corrupt history of the Liberals,Sawinigate,adscam,HRC boondoggle,Alphonse Gagliano,Quebec’s near successful referendum,Paul Martin’s steamship lines,Liberal backed safe injection sites,failed multicultural policies,crime and the continuous revolving doors of our justice system,the Khadr family,the list goes on and on.So please keep things in perspective,reelecting the Liberals would be a disaster for Canada.
And that was just at the top of my head,anyone else care to chime in with what I’ve forgotten?OH yeah,speaking of our military,the sorry state of our military at the hands of the Liberals.
The promised scrapping of the GST by Chretien,the hits just keep coming.
When the sitting PM negates the dedication and sacrifices of the CF in one statement, I could not care less what the Liberals have done in the past or what they plan for the future.
Once again, Harper is a disgrace and this country deserves the moron Dion. Play his little political games with my life? %$&* him.
h.ryan: “So please keep things in perspective,reelecting the Liberals would be a disaster for Canada.”
Exactly right! A large majority for the Conservatives should be a done deal. Yet, it’s not. For those who insist on voting Liberal, despite the party’s abysmal track record … are you expecting a different result or are you just plain stupid?
AtlanticJim does this entire election centre on your priorities? Harper has a nation to run and as democratically elected leader he has many competing interests to keep in balance. I certainly don’t agree with everything he does but I’m not about to withdraw my support because he doesn’t bow down before me.
Parliament determined that Canada should end its Afghan mission in 2011. What kind of democracy would we have if everything parliament passes is ignored by the sitting prime minister? Does Robert Mugabe mean anything to you?
AtlanticJim…you in the military? If not,how’s Harper playing games with your life,and how is it that Canada deserves Dion if it was Harper’s mistake about the missions end date?And if you care so much about the CF then I would think you’d be dead set against the Liberals returning to power,seeing as what they did to the forces during the time they were at the helm.Let’s not forget it was the Liberals who sent our ill equipped{remember the green uniforms}boys to that hole in the first place,and for all the wrong reasons I might add.Yes,I’ll take the conservatives any day over the corrupt Liberals.
Seventeen years and counting h.ryan. At least when the Liberals were in power we KNEW they did not give a damn about us. Better that, than a govt that pretends to, but is shown to be no better after a penlight is shone on them.
Harper is a disgrace.
AtlanticJim….puhleeease,Mr. Harper has done more for the military during his short tenure than 13 years of Liberal leadership,I was a paratrooper for ten years while they were at the helm so I know directly what they did to us.During exercise we’d barter with the marines for effective rain gear,the list goes on and on so I won’t even bother to get into it.What I have noticed is you seem to get a little unglued when talking about Mr.Harper,you from NFLD?If so,then that would explain everything,IE drinking Danny Williams Kool-aid,now there’s a real disgrace!
No I am not lucky enough to be a Newfie. If you spent any time at ALL in the CF then you would not be so bloody stupid as to question the integrity of the people of the province that makes up a larger percentage of our forces than any other save Ontario. Newfies are the heart and soul of the CF, as anyone who has served for more than a week can tell you. That you would even THINK that about the Newfs in the CF tells me that your superiors were more than glad to see you pull the plug.
Last week the CPC had my vote sewn up. Then Harper turned into a Liberal and blew it. He showed his true colours, liberal red with a large yellow streak tossed in. For what? So he could get a few more votes? **** that disgrace to Canada.
You a left winger then?It would explain the name calling.I’ve met plenty of Newfs who think Danny Williams is their hero.What branch you in?Can’t be the army cause real soldiers can’t stand Liberals.
I also noticed you keep your yap shut on the latest thread about Danny boy,why don’t you shoot your mouth off about Harper being a disgrace there,or you too much of a coward knowing you’ll get your ass kicked,go run and hide newfie wannabe.
WOW!
Anger management problems much there Ryan?
As to my politics? None of your business, but if you spent any time around here you would know. As to my branch of service? That really does not matter does it? After all, I did not run off after just ten years. Signed my IPS a couple months back as a matter of fact.
And where would that be,on some gay pride parade float?
On a used car lot there side by side is a Lada and Mercedes. The two are the same price but there is a big sign on the Lada that says this car has never run and is deemed beyond repair. On the Mercedes is a sign that says this car broke down once but was easily repaired and is now good as new.
AtlanticJim walks onto the lot and buys the Lada because at least it is consistent.
“I’m not lucky enough to be a Newfie”,little bit of an identity crisis it seems.
Turns out the media reports on this were BS, surprise, surprise. Apparently when in Quebec Harper only repeated that his government would honour the deal they made last spring, which called for the extension of the Afghan mission until 2011. This was the compromise reached with the Liberals in Parliament after the Manley report. A presence will remain after 2011, but not at the same level as present. My bad for believing media reports that this was a “change”. I should have known better.