Update 2 – Darcey is hosting Fitna on his own server, and Flea is providing torrent links.
“If you quote the Koran. If you do so in the name of freedom of speech. You will be threatened with death. The press will collude with the enemy.”
When I can figure out how to set it up, I’ll host another here.
Statement from Liveleak on the removal of Fitna
Because “multiculturalism” means “more pavilions at Folkfest”…
In anticipation of this, a number of sources have already saved and rehosted the film, so it won’t be hard to find.
Background info.
Because they just can’t help themselves. – Addressing the European parliament, the Grand Mufti of Syria told his audience that “If there is unrest, bloodshed and violence after the broadcast of the Koran film, Wilders will be responsible.”
A million views at Liveleak already (and nearly two million of the Dutch version) and they’ve issued a statement. Via Hotair – “They’re obviously willing to go to the mat to keep this online.”
Michael van der Galien chronicles the astonishing efforts to stop the film from being seen in the Netherlands. “I disagree with your opinion that Islam is violent, but I will fight to the death to prevent you from inciting them”. Or something like that.
While many people who comment on the conservative blogs seem to feel that Fitna is telling them nothing new it should be remembered that the point of the movie is to broaden the audience.
European Governments have already taken steps to Ban It….. The UN wants to criminalize movies and books like it.
The point of the movie is bot what is being said … it’s the Fact that It IS Being Said in a more public manner.
Waiting for BBC and the like to air it. If they do watch for extensive disclaimers ahead of the broadcast.
Sorry … bot = not
“that the point of the movie is to broaden the audience.”
Agree with you 100% on this OMMAG. I find it surprising how laid back the younger 20 somethings are on this issue. At least from what I see among my daughter’s friends who view the Muslim fanatics and their supporters as just a teeny tiny minority amongst Muslims and that the issue will just fade away over soon.
If conservatives here really believe that Islam is unreformable and irredeemable and fundamentally evil, then why the hell are we in Afghanistan? Why do you support staying in Iraq? What purpose could it possibly serve to spend billions and billions of dollars in the Middle East if they “all want to kill us”?
We fight them there so we don’t fight them here!
sheesh, that was a no brainer!!
Also, because we care.
I happened to catch the CBC Radio 2 News this AM and their lead story was this film being released on line. I hope it encourages a few others to seek and find it.
I have a very strong tolerance for blood and gore, but I cannot watch these jihadi videos where kidnapped victims are decapitated. It happens about halfway through.
I was in Pennsylvania when Nick Berg was murdered, and they were showing the video on every screen around. I wasn’t sure why, of if they actually were showing the act or merely the preamble, but it really surprised me and my heart went out to his family. Playing terrorist-made propaganda, and digesting it, is playing into their game.
These snuff films violate every one of my principles, and this is one dude who cannot abide.
RIP to all the victims of these cowards. I refuse to watch their productions, and despise their brainwashing media attempts to replace German Holocaust atrocities as modern Israeli tactics against the refugee nation abandoned by Jordan.
Yes, most muslims do not support these fanatics, but the fact that, until recently in Pakistan, the Taliban/bin Laden cult were not declared ex-communicado from Islam sure made the silence seem like approval.
I do applaud the brave filmmaker.
Younger people have the ability to think that this group exists merely to free their homelands from the Imperial aggressors occupying their homeland.
Younger people also feel that Islamic terror is a bigger threat than the mutual deterrent nuclear Cold War. Only if they get the bomb, kids…..
Daniel Pipes has long contended that radical Islam is a problem to which moderate Islam is the solution. Here is his first published remark after viewing Fitna:
Comment: I disagree with the one-to-one correlation of the Koran with Islamist behavior, as though 1,400 years had not passed in between, but I concede the film’s simple, powerful argument.
Joe… Yes if it encourages all 11 of CBC listeners to watch it, it will help
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I thought Gene Wilder was dead.
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“If conservatives here really believe that Islam is unreformable and irredeemable and fundamentally evil, then why the hell are we in Afghanistan? Why do you support staying in Iraq? What purpose could it possibly serve to spend billions and billions of dollars in the Middle East if they “all want to kill us”?”
Well, hopefully Ted, they’ll have a modicum of freedom for the first time in their lives. Including the freedom to leave Islam.
Although, I half-heartedly agree with you. They should also be demanding that Islam is separated from the state, legal and education systems in these countries, as the Americans did with Shintoiism in Japan.
I also disagree with the one-to-one correlation of the Koran with Islamic fascism and its violent behaviour.
However, I think it is extremely important to make and show, in a widespread manner, films such as this one, showing both the violence in the Koranic texts and the violence in Islamic fascism. Muslims have to see this; they have to acknowledge BOTH ‘images’ and then, they have to debate whether the one requires the other.
The Islamic world has never examined itself. It has been isolate for centuries. Its ideology has been static for centuries. Suddenly, within the past generation, the Islamic world finds itself in the middle of a modern world – and its social, economic and political modes are all operating in the 8th century.
On its own, it has refused to change. Instead it has attempted to deal with this traumatic difference by retrenching, by returning even further into past centuries. That’s Islamic fascism. Or, it has insisted that the Western world is the one that must change – and must adopt 8th century style social, legal and political behaviour.
The West has started to fight back. It has, via the US, moved the internal fight within Islam, the Al Qaeda desire to return to the 7th century back into the ME. It’s now being fought by tribes, who must disband and collaborate if they are to live in the modern world.
And, the West is starting to fight back against the disastrous SLEEP of multiculturalism, which saw the other tactic of Islam to ‘do nothing’ but to remain ‘as it was’…This other tactic was to try to get the West to change. Not Islam. But the West. To adopt Sharia, to accomodate discrimination against women, and so on. Now the West is fighting back against multiculturalism.
Now, Islam is being forced, by the West, to examine itself. To examine its own axioms, its own articles of faith. The political cartoons, these films- yes, they’ll create violence – but it’s a phase that has to be endured by the West. We cannot allow our freedom, fought for so hard over the centuries – to disappear.
We can’t allow Islam to return us to the 8th century!!
So, difficult as it is, for both sides actually, films, cartoons, talk, talk and questions, must be continuous and public. Islam has to face itself; it has to confront its own axioms and see how disastrous they are.
I’m thinking if we want liberals everywhere to grab a brain and actually see how evil this “religion” is, we need Al Gore to take this film on the road and promote it. They fell for everything he had to say in “Inconvenient Truth”, didn’t they?
Only this threat is actually real.
For a more complete chronicle of words which hang themselves, see:
http://www.prophetofdoom.net
The webmaster has chronicled a very detailed compliation of verses from many of the inspirational writings that inspire the imams (prayer leaders) to committ murderous rampages.
And, even though this film snippet highlights some of the verses, there are many more verses and analysis.
It’s an interesting site to explore.
Ted, Islam like the Nazi scourge on humanity is unreformable and we are in Afghanistan and Iraq because they are strategic real estate right in the heart of that putrid ME swamp that needs draining.
Bullet therapy seems to work better with homicidal jihadi Neanderthals than the collective wishes of braindead lefties hoping that they will come around to reason with us.
Initially, I paid little attention to the verses in the film, just as I don’t consult the Bible when I’m deciding about anything. But that’s my mistake. Just because I consider the Bible an interesting mix of myth and history, doesn’t mean that Islamists apply the same rational judgment to the Koran. For those who say this as a “hate” video, I agree, but the hate appears to be coming from the Muslim extremists directed at anyone who is considered “other”. None of the rules of forbearance, love, forgiveness or gentleness apply when it involves people of other faiths, cultures or even people within their own faith who happen to disagree.
I’m sure there are many Muslims who deplore their extremist brothers, but by not exerting a moderating influence, and by being defensive about these ranters, they contribute to the problem. And why do moderates not speak out? Likely for the same reasons that Westerners bite their tongues, and magazines don’t print cartoons and internet providers don’t show this film. It’s from fear. Where before, we might have refrained from comment because of reluctance to offend or because of tolerance and cultural sensitivity, we have now become afraid to speak out for fear of reprisal against ourselves, or against innocents whose only crime is to be accessible to fanatics (such as the poor man beheaded in the film). Hirsi Ali, Theo Van Gogh, the Danish cartoonist, Salman Rushdie, and this filmmaker are amazingly brave–some might even say, foolhardy. But I am grateful to them. But for them and their like, we might simply turn away before the most horrible violations of human rights through some unwillingness to offend and libertarian naivete. (When in Rome….) But when one observes a wrong, religion and culture should not be used to defend it. And it is no defense to point out that other groups have also done evil things. Other people’s evils don’t excuse one’s own. It’s like the little kid saying “But Jimmy does it,” when he’s being reproached for wrongdoing.
The most effective protests should come from those who are part of that culture and religion. There must be reform. Can you imagine a world ruled by these madmen? And the more they rant unchallenged, the more pumped they get. The more afraid the rest of the world becomes. Positions become hardened and discourse among reasonable people stops. So if you are a witness to evil don’t imagine that because you are silent or you are not bombing innocent people, you have no responsibility.
We all have a duty to stand for humanity before the barbarians. So this film, good or bad, is posing some questions that I think deserve some hard thinking from everyone who cares about freedom, the rights of women and children, and the safety of all. If cruelty and repression are done in the name of your religion, don’t excuse it or cover it up or try to argue it away. Admit it, speak out against it and work for reform.
So penny, I take you agree with Obama and the lefties that the US should get out of Iraq? What better than to leave it in the midst of an insurgency, letting Muslims kill Muslims. What’s up with this “peace” that Bush keeps striving for, anyway? What’s with all these billions upon billions of dollars wasted on hospitals and infrastructure if that is just going to make the “Neanderthals” stronger. I take it you are with sensible Ann Coulter and would prefer we just kill all their leaders.
Nevermind Egypt, Jordon, Turkey and their moderate Muslim leaders, that’s just a fiction.
Ironic use of the term “Neanderthal”, penny, come to think of it.
ET, agree, but I believe that there must be a failure of Islamic fundamentalism first, and only then will Islam search for an adaptation that better integrates it into the world community. As long as the feedback is positive, the fundamentalists will continue on their path.
That is why we must be in Afghanistan, and elsewhere. We must be defeating them at every opportunity, on every front, in every forum. On the battlefield where possible, in the hearts and minds in the developing world, in our institutions, media … everywhere. We must demonstrate a resolve to deliver Islamic fundamentalism a defeat.
A very dear friend of mine is Muslim. Our families grew up together. So I know it is entirely possible to not just co-exist, but to co-operate.
Will negotiation and appeasement result in the needed reform? If negotiating and appeasement are read as successful feedback to the fundamentalists, then, no. Now that Islamic fundamentalism has evolved beyond being a mere pest, we must slam shut this avenue of its development, harshly. The message must be clear: we will not allow this to succeed. We are resolved, we will not.
I also believe the fundamentalists have underestimated us, have overcalculated their momentum and strength, and will blunder, sadly, by taking some atrocious step that finally galvanizes the non-muslim world. We’ve seen it before – megalomania injects itself into the mix, and is unchecked. This is what I believe lies at the heart of the matter: once more in history, megalomania has chanced upon an efficacious vehicle, and has stepped on the accelerator. This particular manifestation has it diffuse – embodied between the ears of a few theocrats.
“that the point of the movie is to broaden the audience.”
I’ll agree with that, and the internet is probably the best medium to get the message out to the more important younger audience than the MSM ever would.
Curiously though, how many western parents, even here will bother to show this to their kids, young teens for example? Most I’ll suspect won’t want to trouble them or are afraid they’re too young for the violence or simply want to shelter them. The Muslims unfortunately do not have these restrictive moralities concerning their kids, thus their non-pampered children are fighting from birth.
Where the hell is Jordon Ted?
People are starting to wake up:
“Dutch: Mass Immigration Our Biggest Mistake Ever”
AMSTERDAM, 27/03/08 – The majority of the Dutch are negative on Islam and immigration. Additionally, their knowledge of Dutch history is meagre, according to a survey by three history professors.
According to 56 percent of the Dutch, Islam is a threat to the Dutch identity. As well, 57 percent named admitting large groups of immigrants as “the biggest mistake in Dutch history”.
The results come from the History Monitor. This survey was carried out among a representative group of 1,069 people by De Volkskrant newspaper, Historisch Nieuwsblad history journal and TV programme Andere Tijden in consultation with history professors James Kennedy, Niek van Sas and Hans Blom.
Shaken:
Ultimately, it will have to be Muslims themselves who boot out the imams who advocate violent solutions in the mosques.
There really is no structure, as such, where imams can sit down and agree on heresies, such as was done by the early Christian councils.
Muslims themselves say about 2% of their population is radicalized, which means (1.5 billion x .02) about 30 million.
IMHO, one of the main questions they will have to answer is: were the acts of Muhammad something appropriate only for his time or are they a blueprint for emulation?
I’m quite sure close to 100% of human beings in the Judeo/Christian tradition understand the violent acts described in the Old Testament were a record of that historical time, not something which must be emulated today.
That seems to be a point lost on jihadists.
Hard to suppress something linked and hosted all over the world, eh, mojos?
Ted,
I’ll turn that one around on you and ask you if you think that the islamic world is reformable and if so, do you support Iraq and Afghanastan?
Pat Condells video essay on radical Islam is well worth the watch as well.
http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=30a_1204991129
Warwick:
Afghanistan – yes, absolutely, wholeheartedly, stop this posturing about fixing a departure time, pour more money and soldiers into rebuilding the country.
Iraq – UK/US did not go into Iraq to “reform” it, nor to root out terrorists who were plotting against us. Hussein was an evil, despotic, murderer, right up there with the worst, but he was not an Islamic fundamentalist and in fact kept the extremists at bay because they were a threat to his autocratic control. So Iraq was always going to be a distraction from getting the job done and done right in Afghanistan, and was inevitably going to become (as Dick Cheney predicted) a “quagmire”. That it may come out of the quagmire, doesn’t change what it was. The more complicated question is: now that the US is there, now what? I would have preferred them not to go in for a thousand reasons, but the post-WWII model of European re-building seems to me the best (if unlikeliest) models.
Now Warwick, I was decent enough to respond to you, will you return the favour? If you think the Muslim faith is irredeemable and fundamentally murderous, why should we spend a dime in rebuilding Iraq or Afghanistan and try to rebuild their infrastructure or develop a democracy?
It seems to me that the anti-Muslim sentiments of Kate and Shaidle and the conservative commenters here are fundamentally at odds with the objectives of the Bush and Harper governments in Afghanistan and Iraq.
It is beyond question that most (as in more than 90%) of Muslims world wide would view the acts portrayed in this film as abhorrent. We know this because of current experience in Iraq and Afghanistan. Little kids sit down in the middle of the road to keep the house sized American tank from rolling over the mine they saw some “freedom fighter” plant the day before.
It is beyond question that our forces are doing great good works in those countries. Little kids did not warn the Russians when -they- went to Afghanistan, did they?
I think that takes care of Ted and John DUHley.
The average Canadian Muslim will react to the film the same way I react to some of the modern “art” we see occasionally, involving crucifixes and various bodily fluids. They will be offended, they will say that Mr. Wilders is a disgusting POS Leftist, and they will MOVE ON.
It is beyond question. That is exactly what will happen, as day follows night. Because they are civilized human beings, and they act the same as everybody else does.
It is beyond question that this film will act like a flashlight in the kitchen, illuminating all the nasssty little insects hiding in the wainscotting as they run about chittering. The 0.005% of Muslims in this country who are insane fanatics and live for the destruction of their enemies will take this opportunity to stick their diseased heads up, the police will shoot them off, and that will be that.
Questions?
None whatsoever, Phantom. Well said.
None whatsoever, Phantom. Well said.
Although most of the prior commenters would seem to disagree with you.
Pete Hoekstra, senior Republican on the US House Permanent Select Committee on Intelligence:
“Even if the new Wilders film proves newsworthy, it is likely that few members of the Western media will air it, perhaps because they have been intimidated by radical jihadist threats… I defend the right of Mr. Wilders and the media to air this film because free speech is a fundamental right that is the foundation of modern society. Western governments and media outlets cannot allow themselves to be bullied into giving up this precious right due to threats of violence. We must not fool ourselves into believing that we can appease the radical jihadist movement by allowing them to set up parallel societies and separate legal systems, or by granting them special protection from criticism.”
Meanwhile ctv’s spin….the video is soon to be banned for it’s unacceptable content.According to ctv even christian groups are denouncing the video,and of course muslims around the world are offended by the propaganda. The so called news spent more time on Brenda Martin and her privacy rights being trampled by the Harper government,it pains them too much to actually use his title Prime Minister.
Thanks Ted.
I think, because I pay attention to what’s in front of my face every day, that Muslims in Canada are fundamentally normal humans just trying to get by like everybody else, salted with the odd fruitloop just like every other identifiable group. All the Irish weren’t in the IRA, were they? Maybe 0.005% were.
The trick is to shake the fruitloops out as painlessly as possible, and then dropkick them into jail.
I’d say this movie, heinous piece of Leni Reifenstahlesque propaganda that it is (no, I didn’t like it either) will give things a damn good shake.
This is an amazingly offensive movie. But in a free country you’re free to post amazingly offensive sh1t on the web. Canada’s either a free country or it isn’t.
Anybody says it isn’t will have me to deal with. That, like I said, is beyond question.
I will wait for the fallout to see exactly how free we are,like I said,ctv is reporting that the video is soon to be banned.
I agree with Hoekstra. While I don’t like the film, Wilders has every right to show and distribute it. Rather than trying to have it banned, Muslim groups should debate the content and explain how it slanders their religion and the vast majority of its practitioners. The same violent street protests, death fatwas and murder that accompanied the cartoon controversy will only give more credence to the idea that Islam itself is the problem.
It’s funny, the video is going to be banned as CTV reports. Many are saying that it (video) was done strickly as a political statement to promote an anti-muslim agenda. Alot of these same people are pretty quiet when there are disturbing statements, quotes, sermans and terrorist attacks being publizied with in the Mosques, literature and web. Where are the Muslim leaders and Imans when these events take place? Do they hold a public demonstration denoucing the intolerant statements or cowardly attacks. I have yet to see thousands in the streets chanting death to intorerance or terrorist acts.
All the misguided indignation to the video flys in the face of the content of the video. These leftards should be screaming bloody murder about the lack of anti’terrorism leadership within the Muslim community. That is the travesty not the messenger.
Someone here called me a “two bit link whore…” This really hurt my feelings. So, in my despair and anger I have written some equally hurtful things about y’all, yonder, at my blog. Mind, my blog is not for everyone. You need to be reasonably open-minded to get what I have to offer.
So, big boy, why don’t you come on up to my place and see me sometimes. I don’t know about you, but I am always fascinated to read about myself. Read about yourselves. You know you want to:
http://johnnymaudlin.blogspot.com/2008/03/my-dear-friends-over-yonder-at-swell.html
What is offensive, to any rational human being, is the Islamic ideology, including its texts and its prophet’s life example and sayings.
What is offensive is this ideology’s constitution in shariah law, which includes the death penalty for anybody that rejects the ideology.
What is offensive is this ideology being used for 1400 years to carry out an allah ordained, holy holocaust against non-believers and their lands.
What is offensive is anybody who defends this anti-civilization and anti-human ideology, whether that’s through ignorance or subterfuge.
What is offensive is the UN HRC along with the Islamic theocracies signing a declaration against the defamation of Islam and urging countries to legally prohibit it. This is not only an attack against freedom of speech, it is an attack against criticism of Islam, thereby placing Islam alone and supreme above all other ideologies.
That is offensive. A 15 minute film is not.
No traffic today Daly? Typical.
Simply brilliant!!
Some people on this thread have compared this film to the “art” where a crucifix was immersed in urine with dicriptions of how Christians felt or reacted to it. As a Christian I could care the less. What was soaked in urine was a bit of metal. Jesus the real man was offered and suffered a far greater indignity to His Being at the time of His crucifixion so dipping a bit of metal into a jar full of urine seems a bit lame. However it raises another point of truth. Jesus was thoroughly degraded and most cruelly killed, throughout which time His prayer was “Father forgive them they do not know what they are doing”. Christians taking their lead from His example turn the other cheek when their Saviour is mocked. How then shall the Muslims react to this film? If the actual footage of people being killed or other religions being insulted are the actions of a fringe group then how can the remainder distance themselves. If on the other hand this is the actions of the more strident believers how will the remainder defend the more rabid believer? Banning the film to my mind would be similar to seeing a murder about to take place in the street and pulling the blinds so I don’t have to witness it. Is the film accurate in its depiction of a few, many, most or all Muslims? Does the film accurately depict common interpretations of the relevant portions of the Qur’an? If it is not accurate how should we react? If it is accurate how should we react. BTW I do not now or ever have recommend the destruction of any body or property beyond the destruction of a belief system that is harmful to the holder of said belief or the neighbour of the holder of said destructive belief.
I called you John DUHley, and you’re proving me right. John DUHley, putting the ‘tard in Leftard.
Well, that certainly didn’t take long. Live Leak just stopped carrying Fitna, as mentioned on the other thread.
Death threats, eh? Niiiice.
So John Duhley, still wondering why we mock you? How do you like your jihadi buddies now?
Does anyone realistically believe that whatever fatwas were threatened will now also be withdrawn?
It is still up on UTube.
No surprise on that update. “Fitna” violated the MSM’s sacred dogmas of self-censorship, political correctness even to the point of cultural suicide and the multi-culti myth. It had to be compromised somehow. The mention of the morons in the British press, their “ill informed reports”, is intriguing.
So here we are at this point in the west’s history with freedom of speech rapidly slipping away. A factually correct expose of this century’s biggest menace can’t find a media outlet. Amazing. Ask yourself who is more dangerous to our culture’s survival, the 7th century fundamentalist Islamic troglodyte or the well-heeled college educated lefty quislings with the wired brain of last century’s fascists among us?
More positive feedback for Islamic fundamentalists: “intimidation works, we are succeeding”.
ET: Good posts. You’re right that the West needs to do this over and over and over again. And you’re right, the rage seems to be subsiding somewhat, perhaps because they are slowly getting what a cariactature they’ve become (see: Rage Boy, et al).
HOWEVER, and following your excellent tutelage on tribalism (and having read Popper’s Vol 1 of The Open Society and concurrently some Hayek) I have to re-emphasize that massive muslim benefit-seeking “migration” might be dragging this adjustment you mention; that perhaps, the West will slowly descend into tribalism instead (after all, that’s what most western intelletuals want eh?); that Western civilization is being irreversibly diluted by shari’a law, drip, drip, and drip.
That said, you can’t but feel slightly more optimistic with recent trends and also very excited to see how irrelevant MSM is becoming in the equation.
Brava Kate!
It is truly unbelievable that the video has been removed because of death threats.
Is the police investigating, or are they too scared?
Unbelievable how fast the muzzies shut down Liveleak with death threats and the MSM does nothing and says nothing. I thought the movie was incredible and so low-key which made its message all the more powerful. Must download it before it disappears.
Everything he showed is available in the media yet pulling it all together is somehow anti-muslim. Unless we keep pounding away at this evil and dragging it into the light of day it will swallow us up.
What cowards the European countries are for distancing themselves from this threat. Of course these countries folded like a deck of cards when Hitler threatened them. Where do you think the word Quisling came from and they are doing it again.
Canuckguy @ 11:05 AM: “‘that the point of the movie is to broaden the audience.’
“Agree with you 100% on this OMMAG. I find it surprising how laid back the younger 20 somethings are on this issue. At least from what I see among my daughter’s friends who view the Muslim fanatics and their supporters as just a teeny tiny minority amongst Muslims and that the issue will just fade away over soon.”
That was the other point I was going to make this morning @ 7:41 a.m., but had to hightail it to work:
The Librano$, in addition to allowing mega-immigration from groups not willing to assimilate and wishing us harm, also introduced multiculturalism into our school system @ 30 years ago. No wonder our “younger twentysomethings” are so laid back: Hey, another culcha? What’s the prob?
Most of our young people have been brainwashed into thinking that ALL CULTURES ARE EQUAL. Islamofascists = Judeo-Christians, although multiculturalism-Canadian-style actually teaches our young people that Judeo-Christianity is WORSE than any other culture/faith. You know? It’s a COLONIAL thing.
We shouldn’t be surprised that our young people are “laid back” about the threat to their way of life. They’ve been lulled into thinking they have no enemies, that everything/everyone is “cool” thanks to the Librano$ and the fact that Judeo-Christianity, which actually is a religion of peace–but which does know how to discern an enemy in our midst–has been deep-sixed from “official” Canadian life: read government agencies, universities, the education system, the MSM.
We’re reaping what we’ve sown. I’m not sure how many generations it takes to reclaim our cultural/faith heritage…