However, the “Mohammed Mohammeds” who write in to call me “a speck of dirt on Hitler’s shoe” aren’t Canadian politicians.
Yet…
Give it a couple more years.
Here’s a beaut from a district counsellor in Rotterdam to one of her constituents:
Listen well, dirty madman, WE’LL STAY HERE, hahahahahahhahah, DROP DEAD. I am a dutch moslem, and I shall stay one until my death. I feel pity with your kind, you must live with hatred, really sad. My father and mother have worked hard to help building this country, and I have nothing to do with what others think or say. You are a miserable devil worshipper!!! You have sold your soul!!! Rather bizarre, to believe in the devil and his entourage, and to negate god the allmighty and ruler over heaven and earth. Your kind are the worst terrorists, you have been terrorizing our lives for years here in Holland.
Etc etc.
Note the poor grammar and spelling, unrestrained hysteria and hyperbole, the twisted logic — all very common in Muslim written complaints.
You’d almost think they had a tradition of mass illiteracy or something.
Rapheal alexander 5:11
They stole it, they stole it all, they burnt the libraries and enslaved the people.
This is just another battle in a 1400 year war
penny – have you read the columns of Salim Mansur? He writes regularly at the Toronto Sun. I suggest you check his work out. He’s a Muslim, and a professor Political Science at the University of Western Ontario. He doesn’t use any ‘buts’ in his analysis.
Of course, there’s also Hirsi Ali, and Irshad Manji. There’s a book by Ed Husain, The Islamist, which recounts his own experience as a radical and why he left.
There are others – check out online Free Muslims Coalition, and Muslims Against Sharia. They are trying; it’s not easy for them fighting an entrenched mindset, that Saudi Arabian wealthy Wahhabism that is defined as True within the frightening authority of relgion and The Direct Word of God. But they are there.
I think that we have to support them, we have to realize that they are there, that not All Muslims operate in the ignorant and braindead perspective of Islamic fascism and literalism of the Koran. These groups are there, they are emerging, they are threatened and attacked by the militant Muslims, but – they are there. We have to acknowledge and support them.
And we have to, on our side, reject the ignorance and hatred of Islamic fascism. Not by shouting back at them, but by being steadfast, critical, continually questioning them, refusing to be silenced, continually supporting what our civilization has developed – freedom, democracy, the rights of the individual. Never giving in to the morass that is multiculturalism and silence.
Visit this Apostate site trying to free muslums.
Faithfreedom.org Banned in most Islamic countries. Then compare it to faithfreedom.com.
Listen well, dirty madman, WE’LL STAY HERE, hahahahahahhahah, DROP DEAD. I am a dutch moslem, and I shall stay one until my death.
BWWWAHAHAHAAA!!!!
Islam is very peaceful, but when we are insulted we will turn everyone into sausages.
“This is just another battle in a 1400 year war”
True this is just another battle.
False in a 1400 year war.
The last 1400 years of the war have been fought against the foe whose name became Islam. The war goes back much farther than 1400 years.
We have records of the war going back at least 1400 years before the name of Islam was attached to it. What’s more the records indicate that it was an old war by that time.
maybe muzzies are neanderthals, missed by Darwin, or something
I stand corrected.
I see some are not too grounded in the English language, confusing Muslims with all Muslims. As to the whining about generalisations, I find it amusing. It is rather like someone whose house is on fire and he is more concerning about the colour of his underwear.
Keep up the good work Kathy.
alain – a critique is not a whine. What you are doing is rejecting critical analysis and dissent, by defining such as ‘whining’.
The differentiation between ‘Muslims’ and ‘All Muslims’ has nothing to do with linguistics but with logic, and in particular, the distinction between considering attibutes that belong to a universal class versus attributes that belong only to some members of a class.
I think it’s an important distinction, and my point is that we should be focusing our attention on, not one, but on two areas. One does indeed deal with fire, and that is that we must help put out the fires of Islamic fascism. In the ME, the tactic for doing that is democracy and the promotion of a civic society and a middle class. In the West, it is rejecting the isolationism of multiculturalism and an insistence on integration. Neither of these agendas can be achieved, in my view, by rants and hostility. Instead, we must be firm, unyielding and rational.
The other task I suggest is that we must actively help those Muslims who are critiquing the extremists in their religion, who are trying to reject Wahhabism, who are trying to modernize the social and political modes of the Islamic world. We must support them, and promote them. Obviously, if we label all Muslims as beyond redemption, we’ll ignore this important part of their population – and we’ll even help to ensure that it remains small and hidden.
Do not forget that some of those people we assume to be moderate muslims are apostates. There is a big difference.
Check ET @ 8:21,
** There are others – check out online Free Muslims Coalition, and Muslims Against Sharia. They are trying; it’s not easy for them fighting an entrenched mindset, that Saudi Arabian wealthy Wahhabism that is defined as True within the frightening authority of relgion and The Direct Word of God. But they are there.
I think that we have to support them, we have to realize that they are there, that not All Muslims operate in the ignorant and braindead perspective of Islamic fascism and literalism of the Koran. These groups are there, they are emerging, they are threatened and attacked by the militant Muslims, but – they are there. We have to acknowledge and support them. **
============
Embarrassing, but, I was the ignorant one in my twenties. Taking over a town house in Sout Vancouver from an Indo – Muslim.
He had installed an aluminium screen door, was about to take it with him.
I argued in quasi-lawyer fashion that it belonged to the building.
To avoid a conflict he said OK, it can stay.
So I had a free screen door but he had his dignity. It was stupid of me to make a fuss over something so small. It made me small.
Moderate Muslims are many and many are wiser and more generous than I.
Live and learn. = TG
E.T.
I think they did quite a bit more than comment.
A few examples.
ABU ALI HASAN IBN AL-HAITHAM
(965-1040 C.E.)
He made a thorough examination of the passage of light through various media and discovered the laws of refraction. He also carried out the first experiments on the dispersion of light into its constituent colours. His book Kitab-al-Manadhir was translated into Latin in the Middle Ages, as also his book dealing with the colours of sunset. He dealt at length with the theory of various physical phenomena like shadows, eclipses, the rainbow, and speculated on the physical nature of light. He is the first to describe accurately the various parts of the eye and give a scientific explanation of the process of vision. He also attempted to explain binocular vision, and gave a correct explanation of the apparent increase in size of the sun and the moon when near the horizon. He is known for the earliest use of the camera obscura. He contradicted Ptolemy’s and Euclid’s theory of vision that objects are seen by rays of light emanating from the eyes; according to him the rays originate in the object of vision and not in the eye. Through these extensive researches on optics, he has been considered as the father of modern Optics.
ABUL WAFA MUHAMMAD AL-BUZJANI
(940-997 C.E.)
Abul Wafa’s main contribution lies in several branches of mathematics, especially geometry and trigonometry. In geometry his contribution comprises solution of geometrical problems with opening of the compass; construction of a square equivalent to other squares; regular polyhedra; construction of regular hectagon taking for its side half the side of the equilateral triangle inscribed in the same circle; constructions of parabola by points and geometrical solution of the equations:
x4 = a and x4 + ax3 = b
Abul Wafa’s contribution to the development of trigonometry was extensive. He was the first to show the generality of the sine theorem relative to spherical triangles. He developed a new method of constructing sine tables, the value of sin 30′ being correct to the eighth decimal place. He also developed relations for sine (a+b) and the formula:
2 sin2 (a/2) = 1 – cos a , and
sin a = 2 sin (a/2) cos (a/2)
In addition, he made a special study of the tangent and calculated a table of tangents. He introduced the secant and cosecant for the first time, knew the relations between the trigonometric lines, which are now used to define them, and undertook extensive studies on conics.
OMAR AL-KHAYYAM
(1044-1123 C.E.)
Thought he was just a poet?
Algebra would seem to rank first among the fields to which he contributed. He made an attempt to classify most algebraic equations, including the third degree equations and, in fact, offered solutions for a number of them. This includes geometric solutions of cubic equations and partial geometric solutions of most other equations. His book Maqalat fi al-Jabr wa al-Muqabila is a master- piece on algebra and has great importance in the development of algebra. His remarkable classification of equations is based on the complexity of the equations, as the higher the degree of an equation, the more terms, or combinations of terms, it will contain. Thus, Khayyam recognizes 13 different forms of cubic equatlon. His method of solving equations is largely geometrical and depends upon an ingenious selection of proper conics. He also developed the binomial expansion when the exponent is a positive integer. In fact, he has been considered to be the first to find the binomial theorem and determine binomial coefficients. In geometry, he studied generalities of Euclid and contributed to the theory of parallel lines.
JABIR IBN HAIYAN
(Died 803 C.E.)
Jabir Ibn Haiyan, the alchemist Geber of the Middle Ages, is generally known as the father of chemistry.
Jabir’s major contribution was in the field of chemistry. He introduced experimental investigation into alchemy, which rapidly changed its character into modern chemistry. On the ruins of his well-known laboratory remained after centuries, but his fame rests on over 100 monumental treatises, of which 22 relate to chemistry and alchemy. His contribution of fundamental importance to chemistry includes perfection of scientific techniques such as crystalization, distillation, calcination, sublimation and evaporation and development of several instruments for the same. The fact of early development of chemistry as a distinct branch of science by the Arabs, instead of the earlier vague ideas, is well-established and the very name chemistry is derived from the Arabic word al-Kimya, which was studied and developed extensively by the Muslim scientists.
orvict – we and the traditional Muslims might define them as ‘apostates’. So? Remember, when the Protestant revolution emerged, those people were defined in a similar manner, as heretics. And the penalty in many cases was death.
I think that it is important that we acknowledge that their ideology has the capacity to change. If we reject this capacity, as many Muslims do and as some people on this blog also do, then, we leave them bereft of choice. If they do not want to join one of the other major monotheistic religions, if they want a religion rather than atheism, then – what choice do we leave them?
My point is that we, observers, must allow them the capacity and the choice, to change Islam from its 7th c format, and its 20th c vicious Wahhabi extreme distortion, and encourage them to develop a modern version.
Some on this blog say that by doing so, ‘it won’t be Islam’, I think we don’t have the right to make that judgment. I also think that if we make such a claim, we confine them to either dogmatic extremism or – the extremism of nothing. That doesn’t seem very ‘just’ to me.
TG – I really don’t think your exchange, kindly though it was, had anything to do with religion or Islam.
Islam is undergoing, hopefully, a profound change. We have to engage Muslims in this change. This includes a military rejection of terrorism – and we should note that a great deal of their current terrorism is now Muslim vs Muslim. We have Bush to thank for that, for moving this fight back to where it should be focused, ie, internally.
Terrorism then often moves into pure criminality, eg, the fall of communism meant that rebel communist groups in S and C America moved into drugs, into hostage taking and kidnapping for money, extortion, etc.
It includes an open, public rejection of multiculturalism and its concomitant isolation of immigrant groups into ‘identity enclaves’.
It includes a constant, open insistence on debate, dissent, questions and critique of their ideology, and a refusal to deny, hide or reject the results of our own long years of change, development and civilizational maturation. We insist on the results of this maturation, namely, democracy, freedom of speech and thought, the rights of the individual, the primacy of reason and science.
ET – I agree with almost everything you write, but, if Kathy is generalizing, using hyperbole, count me as guilty. I’m damn fed up with the lack of a big public Muslim response to their compadres carnage unleashed upon the world.
The few Hirsi Ali types you’ve named, held out as a voice of reason, are a dead person walking thanks to cowardliness of their Muslim peers. They sure aren’t giving shelter and safety to them. Draw your own inferences.
Islam, like the Nazis/primitive WWII Japanese or Stalin, has zero insight as to its crimes against humanity. Change will come when we destroy them in every forum they choose to attack us – including the CHRC – or when like the USSR they are squeezed out of economic/ideological oxygen. Empirical evidence says that to date it won’t happen internally for these folks. I’m with Kathy in the image of these Muslim troglodytes and their western educated briefcase troglodytes writing in crayon.
doug newton – it’s best to include your data source, as these descriptions can often be verbally ‘expansive’, ie, suggest more than was actually done.
What’s your point? You have provided a few examples of Islamic expansions on the Aristotelian and Greek framework. Ibn Haiyan, for example, based his work on Aristotle, Pythagoras, Plato. These were not innovations – but based on previous work of such as Aristarchus, Apollonius, Archimedes…many who were Greek but spent most of their time in Alexandria..also influenced by the Hindu mathematicians and astronomers. There’s Diophantus..yet another Greek living in Alexandria (3rd c AD)…and the Arab mathematicians translated these works (eg Al-Khwarizmi). trigonometry…probably originated around 1500 BC..in Egypt.
There are good studies on these developments, eg, Motz and Hane Weaver, The Story of Mathematics. Mathematics was a necessary part of the architectural constructions of the Greeks and Egyptians and Hindu.
Analyzing the material world, by humans, was a basic focus of the Greek and Roman world. It was marginalized in the West from the 4th c, and didn’t re-emerge until the 13th, 14th c. The contribution of the ME world (Persian as well as Arab) was, I maintain, to retain that original knowledge base, but, they did little to advance it and they froze their involvement by the 12th c. The scientific advance began in the West, in the 13-15th c.
“We insist on the results of this maturation, namely, democracy, freedom of speech and thought, the rights of the individual, the primacy of reason and science”.
Why should we expect that of others when we don’t expect it of ourselves?
The fact remains that the first Christian reformation was an attempt to get back to the basics of Christianity as opposed to the human frills added by the Roman Catholic Church. The second “reformation” I call it falling away, when science and reason took primacy has resulted in faltering democracy, abandonment of that same science, freedom of thought and reason so widely touted by ET.
Science and reason make good servants but extremely dangerous masters.
The other fact that can not be denied is that the self righteousness of Islam is the same self righteousness we see in the secular humanist/atheist crowd.
ET,
** TG – I really don’t think your exchange, kindly though it was, had anything to do with religion or Islam. **
Certainly it does. He was educated and more worldly than I.
A few schools exist for the wealthy in Pakistan, otherwise there is no school system in Pakistan or Afghanistan. We are helping with that however.
Poverty there is painful, so if Osama offers young men a meal and a place to sleep, it is no wonder he has followers. = TG
I do not think one’s ability to write english has any bearing on anything.
E.T.
I agree with most of what you have said in this thread but I thought your response to raphael alexander was a bit abrupt. You said.
“raphael alexander – no, you are quite wrong. There never was much ‘Islamic science’ and it was not the ‘most advanced in the world’. Same with its writing.”
My point or purpose was to get you to concede that scholars of the Islamic golden age may have actually made a contribution to the sum of human knowledge.
Even given the “expansive” nature of my source I didn’t believe that you would continue to maintain that there was little or no scientific or philosophical innovation during that time.
This was of course before you made me realize that you already know it all.
All this talk about Islamic science, and who stole who’s work, or “commented” on it seems to be forgetting the most important point.
It was one thousand years ago. That’s a one followed by three zeroes.
Let’s have some examples of great Islamic science, art, thinking, anything other than a nifty IED, from the past 100 years.
Gym, ET… you keep mentioning Salim Mansour, Irshad Manji (sp), a host of other muslims who speak out….
But you keep negelecting to mention that EVERY. SINGLE. ONE OF THEM. is under threat of their lives, their families are under threat of their lives, some of them have been ousted by their communities…. all by the ‘reasonable’ muslims you speak about.
Why is that?
ScottinRMH~ What is also not being mentioned is the Vast amounts of ancient knowledge, kept in good order, in Ireland, which was then spread across Europe by Irish (Christian! ) monks. Looking at the map, one can see major universities across Europe, each one established originally as an Irish monastary, around the same time as all this ‘muslim science’ was going on.
Regarding the generalizations, let me pick on ET (unfairly) to illustrate my point.
ET, unequivocally, you have in the past referred to university professors and leftists or socialists in a general manner, saying that they have this or that trait. So my question: why is it okay to generalize about leftists and socialists and university professors, but it is not okay to generalize about muslims?
Is there some guideline out there that says its okay to generalize about political opponents and men and christians, but it is NOT okay to generalize about women and muslims? Seems rather hypocritical to me.
“Not all, but seemingly many given the lack of dissent,” could be added to the beginning of the word “muslims” and that should satisfy everyone’s concerns regarding generalizations. So, just for you folks, perhaps we should write “NABSMGTLOD Muslims” from now on.
“NABSMGTLOD Muslims are barbaric and tribal”. See how easy that is? And no one gets their knickers in a knot over generalizations.
For the record, I don’t like to read sweeping generalizations either, but I am astute enough to be able to recognize that most comments from reasonable commenters aren’t intended to apply to ALL muslims. Kathy, it IS a valid point that sweeping generalizations such as yours are used by our opponents to criticize and marginalize us…so IMHO it would be wise to be a bit more careful in your postings.
all muslims are. that fits, too freakin bad. find me one who will renounce islam.
eeyore- I think I’ve defined the academic world in non-general terms by removing the science disciplines from the ‘Set of Academic Faculty’ that I critique and confining it to the social sciences and humanities, and referred to this Set as ‘most of them’. This Set of academics, the Social Science and Humanities, DO have a variety of common attributes, which include a non-requirement for empirical validation of one’s opinions, and, following on that, a perspective that is isolated from accountability for opinions by that lack of empiricism and such protections as tenure.
As for defining ‘the left’ and ‘socialists’ in general terms – the people in these two sets are already ooperating within a common set of attributes. When one refers to the ‘left’, this doesn’t include anyone who does not have these attributes of ‘being a leftist’. Same with socialism. So, generalizations are valid. Admittedly, there are variations of ‘leftism’ and variations of ‘socialism’, but a basic common denominator still exists.
You can refer to ALL Muslims in general terms by finding the basic common denominator in their faith axioms (a belief in Allah, Mohammed, and the historical outline of the 7th c, and a few other axioms of prayer etc). But when you refer to other attributes such as literacy, spelling, emotional hysteria etc, I don’t think that these can be defined as basic common attributes found in the Set of All Muslims. They can be found outside this Set of All Muslims.
I guess Paul Revere should have said “The RADICAL British are coming.”
Wow. Just pure, unadulterated fucking racism. I’m ashamed that you people are Canadians.
Gee, BeingThere…. since when is Islam a “race”? I’m ashamed that you’re even allowed to access a computer with sheer unadulterated stupidity like that. Does that mean the muslims who burn churches and behead christians are racist as well? ‘Cause if Islam is a race, so is Christianity or Judaism
“Being There”…wasn’t that the movie starring Peter Sellers as Chance the Gardener, the simpleton who people thought was brilliant? Wow, what an appropriate handle you’ve used!
You are a simpleton, Being There. Firstly, Islam is not a “race”, therefore the statements in this thread CANNOT be racist. “Bigotted” would have been a better word.
Secondly, we are discussing (like adults, you should try that some time) the negative impact that Islam is having on the world and the mindset of the people who are Islamic. Sometimes, we have to talk about things that are true but distasteful. Talking about things that are true but distasteful is not bigotry…that’s honesty.
I will grant, however, that a very few of the comments border on bigotry. But when you have a huge number of muslims WHO SAY NOTHING WHEN ATROCITIES ARE CARRIED OUT BY ZEALOTS IN THE NAME OF THEIR RELIGION, then it is reasonable to say that they are bringing guilt onto themselves for not denouncing the atrocities…they are in essence, by their silence, giving silent support to the zealots. Ergo, extending the negative opinions that we have against muslim extremists to the muslims at large shouldn’t be an unreasonable thing to do.
Someone who calls themselves a Christian and commits terrible crimes, they are soundly criticized by Christians and the actions are denounced by the Christian representatives. Where are the voices of the muslim representatives? There are many video clips of the imams all over the world SUPPORTING the atrocities and inciting for MORE!
Muslims have brought the negativity down on themselves. Grow up and look around, Chance.
When you look for the positive, it just falls into your lap.
SCOTT SAID. . .
**Let’s have some examples of great Islamic science, art, thinking, anything other than a nifty IED, from the past 100 years.**
Posted by: ScottInRMH at January 20, 2008 3:24 AM
OLD WHITE GUY SAID. . .
**all muslims are. that fits, too freakin bad. find me one who will renounce islam.**
Posted by: old white guy at January 20, 2008 8:40 AM
[Not renounce, but reform.] . . ET?
http://reformislam.org/
OUR GOALS
=============
* to educate Muslims about dangers presented by Islamic religious texts and why Islam must be reformed
* to educate non-Muslims about the differences between moderate Muslims and Islamists (a.k.a. Islamic Religious Fanatics, Radical Muslims, Muslim Fundamentalists, Islamic Extremists or Islamofascists)
* to educate both Muslims and non-Muslims alike that Moderate Muslims are also targets of Islamic Terror
============== Muslims Against Sharia
Just discovered this, no thanks the the *Selectively Silent MSM*. = TG
I do not think one’s ability to write english has any bearing on anything.
true but her response to her constituent was written in Dutch. source document here.
http://www.hetvrijevolk.com/?pagina=5168&titel=Rotterdams_deelraadslid_Bouchra_Ismaili%3A_Jullie_zijn_hier_de_allochtonen_bekeer_je_tot_de_islam