University. A long-time reader writes;
I’m a 3rd year polisci/history major at the University of Victoria, and since Thursday, this has been the #1 issue here:
“UVic Students’ Society (UVSS) chairperson Tracy Ho broke a 6-6 deadlock at a Sept. 10 UVSS board meeting by voting that the military should be banned from the SUB.
“The motion was passed to clarify a policy amendment passed 10-1 by the last UVSS board of directors in April.That board amended the society’s policy on military issues to include, “The Society is opposed to the militarization of Canadian Society, and is unsupportive of a Canadian military establishment that violates international law and human rights.” […]
“The ban voted in on Sept. 10 means that the Canadian Armed Forces will be unable to attend the annual recruiting fair put on by UVic’s Career Services in the SUB every January. The Armed Forces attended last year’s recruiting fair.”Basically, a radical leftist anti-war organization with a membership around 20 decided to table a motion at the UVic student society meeting earlier this month to ban recruiters, and the UVSS board passed it, deciding we students are too “uninformed” to make our own decisions. The nearly 20,000 students at UVic have been painted with the same brush as these dozen or so wackos, and we’re not going to take it.
There has been massive outcry in response to the student union board’s decision. So far, it has resulted in the formation of a pro-recruiter facebook group numbering 271 in less than 48 hours, reactions from the Army.ca forums, another facebook group at the University of Toronto (if you can believe it) condemning UVic, and a massive stack of letters to the student newspaper. The facebook group founder is going to be speaking to The Zone 91.3fm radio station here in town, several organizers (myself included) will be passing out anti-UVSS flyers on campus, and the local media are being informed. Even students who are against the war have joined up with us because they recognize this for the blatant violation of democracy it is.
I’m just sending this to you to help dismiss the image of UVic students as a bunch of pinkos and hippies. The majority of students here want recruiters on campus, and we’re going to fight for our right to have them here at the upcoming student society meeting on monday. There is going to be massive attendance, as well as a major takedown of the radical lefties who have hijacked our democratic process.
I just submitted my application to the air force last week, so I’m not about to let this down.
The link above has to be read in its entirety to be believed.
(More – “Military ban an affront to free speech”.)
I’m not sure the student union is within their rights here. As I recall from when I used to go recruiting for accounting students, it is actually the University that sets up these recruitment fairs and invites the companies and organizations to come. The student union only has jurisdiction over the parts of the university that are considered student areas, as opposed to classrooms, lecture halls etc, Of course that was in Alberta, where things work much more sensibly.
Having said that, I now live on beautiful Vancouver Island, and I really hope that our local Victoria Times Colonist picks up the story. There is a big naval base at Esquimault (home of Canada’s Pacific fleet)and a smaller facility near Victoria airport. The military is very well respected in this area, as they are a large part of the economy.
How shameful was my first thought I read this article.
Post secondary education is such a privilege. Yet in places like Afghanistan many children, especially girls, are denied even basic education. Our soldiers are there (at UN request) to both fight the Taliban and thereby allow social development of the country. This includes building schools and allowing girls to get an education.
By so having a narrow-minded view and focusing solely on the combat role they have missed the other side of the equation. The establishment of social justice, human rights and gender equality.
To me it typifies the progressive stance. They do not care about people’s suffering or even their own stated goals of progressiveness. They only have agendas filled with arrogance, paranoia and envy. I think that activist of the past would be ashamed of the actions of their modern equivalent. They are just a generation of spoiled, entitled children like Avi Lewis that “spit on freedom” because they have never been truly oppressed.
“This is what the radical filth on the left do. They hijack commitees, create special interest groups to acquire taxpayer money, etc. all to foist their undemocratic will on the vast majority.”
Right. Because we’ve never heard of some fundamentalist group organizing a hijacking of some state education board to try to implement creationism, by way of one example.
All political operators operate this way. Rely on the fact that by-and-large most of your average, silent majority, just want to carry on with their day and do their own thing and not be bothered by politics and ideology, especially the politics and ideology of others but even of people who share their belief. Most people are a-political (which is not the same thing as not having a political opinion or belief).
Political activists take advantage of this. These silly kids have just demonstrated a quintessential rule of political activism.
Agreed Ted,
But wasn’t Darwinism implemented by political activism as well?
Correct, Ted. Amazing how often we agree these days, eh?
Dippy Lefty skulls full of mush students can’t pull their dippy stunts without MY money, nor can dippy creationists. Two sides of the same coin that came out of MY pocket.
Tax cut now please.
I read a comment by one of our US ambaasadors. He said when you want people to respect you, you take a man in uniform. It changes the reception to one of respect. Perhaps that is what the left resents.
Ian in NS, forgive me because it was a long time ago but I seem to recall that engineers were known to have tipped back a few beverages on occasion along with hiring Lady Godiva to ride through the square and other such meaningfull events. G*d, I miss those days… but yeah, I do remember the Albaniaqn Students Club and such putting up information tables, complete with red table cloths. Always manned by art history or basketweaving majors who never seemed to graduate and leave.
The most anoying thing was student union fees were manditory and a waste of good beer money. A group I was with once tried to rent facilities at a student union building. Didn’t take long to figure these politician wanna bes didn’t know their ass from a hole in the ground.
Irwin: “But wasn’t Darwinism implemented by political activism as well?
At the risk of pulling this thread off-topic, I don’t think so. I think communities were a little outraged when they saw things like teachers being fired, fined or jailed for teaching the current science and decided to elect different boards, plus in the US the Supreme Court opining that teaching creationism was teaching religion and therefore had no place in the classroom. For better or worse, evolution was brought into the classroom by different means.
Ted:
Now that you mentioned it, would you care to explore the topic of the theory of evolution?
We’ll keep it strictly on the plane of scientific fact.
Let me start by asking you several questions, which, in the spirit of an intelligent debate, I’m sure you’ll be glad to answer.
1) What scientific degree did Charles Darwin earn and from what institution? Whose ideas did Darwin steal and what was the original title of his book?
2) Name me one (1) species which evolved into another species.
3) Given subsequent studies of genetics and DNA mapping, what would happen when DNA is manipulated in a laboratory setting?
4) When Darwin mentions race, would humanity fit that definition? Is there such a thing as a master race?
5) What are your views on eugenics, where the concept of natural selection has been fast-tracked by giving human beings in a position of power over other a license to speed along nature?
6) When Karl Marx wrote Das Kapital, did you know he was so inspired by Darwin’s writings that he asked Darwin to write the forewood for his book? Can human beings be ‘evolved’ through social engineering? That’s the premise.
7) Given that scientists have an ability to measure red-shift of stars, how does that jive with the Big Bang theory?
I think that it is more than just some silly kids. Look at their progressive role models at the federal level. Members of the LPC joining a parade in Montreal in which Hezbollah’s flags were proudly waved. NDP’s Jack Layton wanting to negotiate with the Taliban after they kidnapped, killed and ransomed the South Korean hostages. Those are but a two examples among many. The problems and unsavory alliances are throughout the progressive movement not a few isolated incidents.
That would be pulling things too off-topic, SYF, and I’ve got to head into meetings for a busy afternoon.
As a general comment, I don’t feel I need to defend any specific theory of evolution or cosmological origin to say that creationism (i.e. the 6 literal days version, not the “evolution was the tool chosen by god to “create” the universe version) is religion and not science.
And that will always be my objection to creationism being taught as truth or science to my kids or anyone else’s.
Ted:
Can’t understand the notion that six days of creation are six literal earth days either.
Do you object equally to the teaching of flawed or unproveable science or even the teaching of theories as truth?
Examples: Evolution, Big Bang, Global Warming?
If those science as politics fairy tale concepts are taught in schools, as they are today, would it not be in the interest of of a well-rounded education to teach the beauty of creation?
How many of these stupid students have draft dodgers in their geneology. Cowards.
they will all die defensless.
Set you free,
It appears that you have set your brain free. Evolution is taught because it is a hypothesis that has yet to be proven wrong. That’s how science works. Like Van Mises said “The fortunate aspect of the truth is that it works, no matter how inconvenient that is for others”
You don’t know God created the earth… you believe it. Belief does not equal knowledge. Yikes!
Set you free, with all due respect, there’s science and then there’s religion. Global warming, socialism and all manner of other pseudo/junk science counts as religion for the purposes of this discussion.
Don’t take this the wrong way, but I’d prefer you teach your religious beliefs to your kids with -your- money. Not public money, aka MY money.
I’d be ok with school vouchers as a short term replacement for a tax cut, but a major tax cut is the best solution. Private property is supposed to include money, y’know.
Tamara; As a former grad from UVic, I, too, am about to cancel my donation to the alumni, for the same reasons as you.
I graduated in 1974 but UVic was already assuming the smug, ultra left,greenie, Godless, elitism that has today finally taken off the veil and revealed itself to the rest of Canada for what it really is; a mean, small, elitist nest of puffins and puffin followers..hiding their offal from view.
“Rule Britania” was a ‘lost cause’ just loosing the last of it’s luster (and respect) when I was at UVic. The anti military mindset of the socialist elitest group was alraedy manifesting itself as an alternative – this lack of respect , by the ‘commoners’, for soldiers and sailors, is not new in Victoria. The ‘old’ establishment types said nothing against the AF in public but they told the press what to say! Victoria does not like to be percieved as part of anything that glorifies the individual unless that individual is from their own rank. Many WWII vets had aquired an education and prestige after the war and the big guns in Victoria didn’t like that – the ‘commoners’ acting ‘uppity’ did not sit well in the craw of these ‘entitled’ ‘old’ families.
Victoria is a beautiful city, “more British than Britain”; the people who settled in this lovely city were mostly ‘aristocratic wanna be’s’ in the old British tradition; thus the mindset was to scorn the ‘colonials’ (which most of them were colonials, themselves – but trying to hide it!) Victoria aquired a thin vinear of ‘aristocratic pretensions’ by adopting a society of eggagerated old Briish institutions and mannerisms.
The exaggerated attempt of these ‘old’ families to assume aristocratic pretensions and thus isolate themselves from ‘commoners’ was beginning to wear pretty thin when I arrived in Victoria (WWII had changed the ‘respect’ Canadians had had for the British tradition) Things had to change so the ‘old guard’ armed themselves with the agenda of most leftoids – ‘we will run the capitalists doing the nasty work (like working for a living in the oil fields) right off their (undeserved) position on the power ladder by taxing them to poverty’.
This is now the (adopted)the mindset of most of the population in Victoria – these people squawk that they are the ‘entitled’, they make a pastime out of ridiculing the ‘clodhoppers’ in the interior as fools to be fleeced. The working people, who move to Victoria, are not ever invited to be a member of the ultra rich inner circle, the group that want to maintain power and control of that city. The inner group are not rag tag Bolshevik types that bludgeon, rape, and rob following a red rag; these are lethal, bland, and very rich and they have no intention of ever joining the ‘rabble’ – they do, however, support the rabble indirectly, the rabble, like the Student Union reps, are ‘useful idiots’. The ‘useful idiots’ want to be part of that charmed inner circle so they adopt an air of smug self importance and assume that they are a part of the ‘elite’ of Victoria! Sad and pathetic.
The University is funded by the ‘inner circle’ so the university spouts the views dictated to them.
I was in the dept of History and Classical Studies and my professors were old at the time. I did not know how the ‘elitist totalitarian’ lefto mindset had slithered into the university until I took a sociology course for easy credits. I was astonished! I attended that class only four times because it was a squawking, shouting session of left wing dogma (a waste of time) – which I happened to know after taking the History of Russia – I just recycled Lenin and Stalin and got a B+. I did not think it was a serious course, at the time; that is, I did not think that anyone believed anything the prof or the books in that course said …my History profs certainly did not approve of the Bolsheviks – most of the profs I had were WWI or WWII vets! I think many people were just like me, they thought the rag tag Bolsheviks were a joke. Now, as we see here, we were as blind as the Russians were in 1918 …let us pray that it is not too late for us!
Jon:
I teach my children that the first person who name-calls loses the debate.
I’ll give you a free one if you answer me two questions.
1) How has creationism been proven wrong?
2) What scientific evidence has ever been uncovered that one species transform into another species?
Science, before Darwin, had to meet a strict standard to be taught as proveable fact.
The methdology of political control through convincing the populace of junk science is now being propogated in its latest apparition, Global Warming.
Species-to-species evolution is impossible and therefore the underlying premise of the original theory has irrefutably been proven wrong.
Susequent studies of genetics and DNA mapping have shown the impossibility of such a event ever happening.
The question would be, since there’s no underlying scientific value to the theory … who benefits from the confusion it creates?
My answer would be utopian/socialist political philosophers.
How has creationism been proven wrong?
How has the idea that Moses was a robot from the planet Skyron been proven wrong?
If the students union had to raise their own funds, instead of being funded by compulsory student contributions, it’s not likely that they would be able to get into this type of mischief.
I remember a table that was set up at McEwen Hall (SUB) at U of C many years ago. It was manned with earnest students who demanded that Zimbabwe be freed. It sounded serious so I asked them who the hell Zimbabwe was.
“It is the country currently known as Rhodesia and the black majority is living under the repression of the white minority”
Wish I could ask them how their project turned out.
Phantom:
Would you agree, then, that evolution should not be taught in schools?
Science, I submit, should be about proveable facts.
All other conjectures belong in a philosophy class … or even better, political science, of which evolution forms a very solid foundation.
When the predicted “Big One” hits the West coast and the Canadian Military comes in with relief aid and emergency water filtration systems, I hope they make a big detour around the University of Victoria. I wouldn’t want to see “war criminals” helping out these ungrateful leftards.
Set you free, no. I do not agree.
Evolution, like it or not, is a measurable, verifiable process just like erosion or the germ theory of disease. You can do it in a test tube, you can measure its effects on species over the short term, you can see it work long term in the fossil record. You can see the effects at the macro level in anatomy and the micro level in cellular chemistry. You can even do it with computer programs.
Anybody tells you different is selling you a bill of goods. Creationism is the Global Warming of Christianity. I’ve got a BA in Anthropology and a MA in PT, I’ve done my homework on this one.
Any person or group seeking to teach Creationism as fact in a public school, or stop evolution being taught, I view as being no different from the little creep socialists at UVic. Maybe you mean well, but you’re trying to push your social agenda with my money. I don’t like that.
Social engineering is always wrong in a free country, and only leads to strife. Doesn’t matter who’s doing the engineering or what their motives are, good, bad or indifferent.
Tax cut. Now please.
Phantom:
Changes occur within sub-species, that’s a scientific fact.
Human beings are much taller on average than they were even a couple of generations ago.
Yet, the original basic premise that because changes occur in sub-species, then species can transform into other species is a total fraud.
But evolution and creationism are two different things.
Proveable sub-species evolution happened after creation.
There had to be a starting point and even a point beyond a starting point. Go back, back, back through all evolution and ask yourself … can something be created out of nothing?
If it could, then alchemy would be a legitimate science.
BTW. Did anybody pay for your education? Who was it and what choice did they have?
To be fair to students at UVic, student elections rarely have anything to do national or international politics. When the debate centers around which student clubs get funding or how many parties will be supported by the union, it’s a little hard to gauge the candidates’ positions on foreign policy issues.
Btw, for the benefit of “set you free”, evolution from one species to another happens all the time at the microbial level. Pathogens mutate, develop new vectors of transmission and new immunities, eventually becoming genetically quite distinct from their predecessors. We don’t see it at the multicellular level because the time scales are too long. Evolution is fact. The devil is in the details.
Pathogens mutate, develop new vectors of transmission and new immunities, eventually becoming genetically quite distinct from their predecessors.
Micro changes through the use of information already contained in the organism is not evolution.
SYF – I cannot comprehend how anyone can reject evolutionary theory. Not gonna get into an argument. Suffice it to say that evolution is not in conflict with Christian belief.
Most of us Catholic are quite comfortable with Darwinian theories.
Evolution, like it or not, is a measurable, verifiable process…you can see it work long term in the fossil record.
Only by subjectively interpreting fossils using the theory of evolution as proof. The subjective interpretation of fossils, in turn, is used to “prove” the theory of evilution.
Circular reasoning.
Set you free: If its any of your business, I paid for my BA tuition myself, and my Mum popped for my MA. She could have told me to push off, but being a nice mum she went ahead.
First one to call names loses, remember?
The details of your belief system are not really at issue. Its yours, and you are welcome to it. Feel free to do as you will.
Just not with my money, eh?
//Jon:
Yes my friend.
//I teach my children that the first person who name-calls loses the debate.
Then you’re a bad debate coach.
//I’ll give you a free one if you answer me two questions.
Thanks mate.
//1) How has creationism been proven wrong?
It is allegorical, it is not devised from observation but from belief. If I were to say that Jesus was from Mars, what evidence would you have to prove me wrong.
//2) What scientific evidence has ever been uncovered that one species transform into another species?
I’m pretty sure that the Lucy skeleton of the great african rift valley is widely considered by scientist to be a human predecessor. Otherwise, how about bacteria which is now penicillin resistant?
//Science, before Darwin, had to meet a strict standard to be taught as proveable fact.
Aristotle was science before darwin… so was the catholic church… what’s your point? Things evolve from the past… pardon the pun.
//The methdology of political control through convincing the populace of junk science is now being propogated in its latest apparition, Global Warming.
Global warming is a religion similar to Christianity. In the beginning… there was a perfect world… then eve ate the apple and adam invented the internal combustion engine. Now we are going to face a horrible hell on earth if we don’t repent our evil ways. I think global warming is rediculous (I used to keep a blog at ecocon.blogspot.com arguing against global warming and the kyoto protocol).
//Species-to-species evolution is impossible and therefore the underlying premise of the original theory has irrefutably been proven wrong.
What is impossible? Prove it without using the wold belief and I will concede that maybe Creationism is truth. First theories are almost always wrong. Einstein was wrong, but people had to prove him wrong. Assuming evolution theory would be perfect even 100 years after it was introduced is naive.
//Susequent studies of genetics and DNA mapping have shown the impossibility of such a event ever happening.
Prove it… show me.
//The question would be, since there’s no underlying scientific value to the theory … who benefits from the confusion it creates?
I think this question is null until you can actually show me studies that have disproved that evolution takes place.
Let me just leave you with a quote from Bill Hicks: “Isn’t it strange that the people who believe in creationism always look less evolved?”
Ol Hoss, I’m not going to have this argument. You’ve got to read Darwin’s book, then do a bunch of searches on how genetic drift occurs and how its measured, population dynamics and all manner of crap like that. I’ve got 8 years in on this stuff, I wrote a paper on it when I was a kid that got published even, and it bores me now. Old news. Rather work on my truck, thanks.
Evolution is a theory based on observations. Lots and lots of observations. People see it work every day, just like gravity. That’s all.
Einsteinian relativity is a theory too. Christians don’t get bent out of shape about E=MC^2 which is a much more radical idea than Darwin’s. Real live Creation of Something out of Nothing, and they do it in particle accelerators all the time. Or quantum theory. You go small enough, there’s no “there” there, and guys are measuring this fact every day. Your car depends on it if you run a Hall Effect crank sensor! Christians don’t see a problem with this spooky stuff.
Mention evolution though, everybody goes bananas. Just makes me tired, you want the truth. Feels like arguing about gun control with a liberal, but without the bad language.
ol hoss – Yes, it is. You look at the DNA of two similar species’, they are very similar. It takes only small changes at the genetic level to go from chimp to man. There is no other explanation for why there are hundreds of different species’ of ants, for example.
Ummmmmmm….wonder if these “academic wizards” realize,that under ANY system except democracy,they would be the first executed or sent of to gulags for “re-education”?? I say send them all to Iran,and let them preach freedom for the Jews/gays/adualterss/esses. See how long they last. A country without a military??? Are they completely gonzoo???
83 posts and one person actually did something another one is contemplating to do something, the rest of you are lamenting about the situation or discussing evolution versus creation (not that there is anything wrong with that in general, just not on this thread).
What I am trying to say is this: The current situation with the left dictating their terms in all aspects of our daily life is our own (conservatives) fault. We discuss, we debate, but when it comes down to action we are to busy making a living, raising our kids etc. we don’t take action; we don’t have time for politics. We talk a lot and do nothing. Have any of you called UVic to protest or ask for their stand on the matter?
It takes only small changes at the genetic level to go from chimp to man.
Yeah, about 80 million changes, and counting…
Man having 50% similair DNA to bananas doesn’t make man part banana. Although evilutionists are mainly comprised of fruits and nuts.
May I humbly propose a new law of nature:
The probability of any discussion taking place in the Canadian blogosphere in the year 2007 turning into a slam against Christians approaches one GET SOME NEW MATERIAL YOU DECLINE OF WESTERN CIVILIZATION ENABLING ATHEIST LOSERS!!!!!
I would honestly think the UViC kids would be best deployed into Iran and the DPRK. They would de-militarize , and the UViC kids can do the world some real darn good!
I’ll chip in for the plane tickets…
Did I read this right, did a person just accuse the CF and myself indirectly of committing War Crimes.
Will you people please refer to the post topic before commenting? If you want to debate evolution vs creationism, take it to email
UVic banned an organization, not an individual. It’s democracy in action, get over it.
For cripse sakes, stop giving these fools credibility. They’re children playing childish games. On the day of 9/11/01, they were playing hop-scotch and trading Yugioh cards in the elementary school cafeteria.
It’s just too bad that the adults involved allow these unqualified novices to be deluded into thinking that because they read the power points presentation from chapter 1 and part of chapter 2, that they are now ready to perform the heart surgery.
Actually Albatros, they accused the CF of committing war crimes, I as a member of the CF who has served in Afghanistan have now indirectly been libeled. If I was to say that all Liberals were thief’s and you were a card carrying member of the liberals would you not be just a we bit concerned that I had libeled you.
Sorry Kate! You turn your back for one minute and there’s the kids jumping on the furniture. ~:D
Kate,
I’m sorry. I just really like science, although your politics are good too.
“I would honestly think the UViC kids would be best deployed into Iran and the DPRK. They would de-militarize , and the UViC kids can do the world some real darn good!”
I wouldn’t do it. In no time they will be sitting in some advisory council, advising how to undermine Canadian infidels from within.
Incredible how easily liberals forget that it was indeed the liberals who sent us to Afghanistan. We’re not war mongerers; we don’t get to choose where or when we go…we just go. It’s the politicians who decide. If you qualify banning recruiters from the SUB with alleged offences against the Geneva convention or human rights violations then you clearly must ban ANY politically affiliated organization as they are or have ties to the ones who sent us to do these alleged acts in the first place.
Logical ?…isn’t it ??
UVic has more than their fare share of those suffering from Leftist Mental Disorder.
I hope the other students vote these clowns out at the earliest opportunity.
My apologies to real clowns.
djinbc is right. You folks could actually be part of the solution if you were sending your concerns the the U. of Vic. I sent the following message to:
scarlson@uvic.ca
chanclr@uvic.ca
plaliber@uvic.ca
gmanager@uvss.uvic.ca
martlet@uvic.ca
ombuddy@uvic.ca
academics@uvss.uvic.ca
chair@uvss.uvic.ca
edit@martlet.ca
These e-addresses are all ‘movers and shakers’ on the U.of Vic campus – including the Chancellor and the Ombudsman. I’d ask others to use these and send your objection as well
Editor, The Martlett
Dear Editor;
What a disappointment in seeing the proud traditions of the University of Victoria subverted and stained by a few radical students with an anti-military agenda. Whatever happened to free and open debate? What has happened to critical thinking skills? Why are these students, but a handful of the student body, allowed to subjugate other students to their own ideology?
Something is very, very wrong at U. of Vic. Canada’s military men and women follow a proud tradition of supporting liberty and democracy for others, while callow and naive students work to subvert both liberty and democracy on campus. What is wrong with these people? Why do they insist that their beliefs are paramount and that our military poses such a danger to young Canadians that they must be silenced? Tim Fournier accuses Canadian Forces members of ‘war crimes’ with no evidence and without trial, something he would not do were it a student accused of theft or plagarism. Director-at-large Christine Comrie said it was important to ban the military from recruiting because some students are ignorant about the issues. This would lead one to believe that Ms. Comrie is herself an expert on international affairs and military issues, while other adults are unable to comprehend the complexities of their world. How condescending is that?
The University of Victoria should overide this decision which as shown by the need for a tie-breaking vote, is clearly contentious. Perhaps some day, with a little seasoning of experience and historical insight, these anti-western, anti-capitalist, anti-American and anti-democratic students will understand why Canada needs a military and why we are in their debt.
*** *****
Nanaimo, B.C.
Perhaps this professor of military history would have something to say:
http://www.canada.com/victoriatimescolonist/news/story.html?id=6ab31490-fea2-411f-9e51-d41061179be0&k=49802
John West:
“EVERY COUNTRY HAS A MILITARY … THEIR OWN OR SOMEONE ELSE’S”
I believe that quote is from Winston Churchill.
But I STILL agree with you… and him.
Carry on …..