63 Replies to “Baby Boomers”

  1. Sickeningly stupid, even by Moslem standards, and a great rebuke to the Religion of Peace crowd: afraid it just ain’t so, guys.
    Redundant wallop: most religions don’t sanction/sanctify mass murder, either, so take that all you Islam-Is-A-Great-World-Religion people. It just has a lot of fellow travellers who need to be deprogrammed before they start passing out Kool Aid.

  3. Is the post title original? If it is, I want to congratulate you on an absolutely world class word play title! It’s completely Fark-worthy!

  4. I know it might sound tired and maybe a little simplistic to ask this, but can we just wipe them off the planet and turn their deserts into glass and be done with it?

  5. These children have been subjected to a psycological brainwash by their (Islamic) parents, teachers and governments. To kill a Jew is good. to kill a Christian is good.
    HOWEVER the Godless Left in Canada have with great success convinced many Canadians that Christianity is Bad , Israel is bad , Palestine terrorists are good , Islam is a religion of peace etc. It is the same brainwash strategy used on Canadians by Canadians . Who is teaching your children today ? Be carefull Canada.

  6. STL:
    may I put that question to the unquestioning bushists out there: how many of YOU would be perfectly willing to shoot these brainwashed kids and any others like them? lots to choose from !!! best stock up on ammunitions and dont forget to put your cammo gear on !!!
    c’mon oh republicanist righties, be honest, how many of YOU would be willing to personally step forward and kill these two kids????
    talk the talk, walk the walk …..

  7. To robertbollocks:
    I’ll shoot anyone who comes at me with a bomb strapped to his arse. You don’t get a free pass because you’re Moslem larvae.

  9. New York Times Ignores Indoctrination Of Palestinian Youth
    Jewish Press
    Excerpt:
    At the university level, the problem is also systemic. For example, as the Washington Times reported on March 5:
    Al-Quds University last month held a weeklong celebration honoring Yahya Ayyash, the Hamas leader known as “the shahid [martyr] engineer.” He is credited with creating the first suicide belts in the mid-1990s and training the next generation of suicide bomb makers. The opening event, as reported by a Palestinian newspaper and found in the PMW report, included a speech by university administrator Yusuf Dhiyab, “who discussed shahids and the mark that the shahids left on the history of the Palestinian nation and how they succeeded in uniting the nation.”
    And who can forget the infamous exhibit at An-Najah University in 2001 – the very same university which produced several students whom Erlanger interviewed for the article – celebrating violence against Israelis with a reenactment of a suicide bombing in a pizzeria that killed 15 Israeli civilians (mostly women and children)? …-
    http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/1801209/posts

  10. This is the sickest freaking thing I have seen in a long time. The question back to RobertBollock in not would you Kill these kids, the question should be what parent in their right mind raise their children to become suicide bombers, I challenge you Robert to look at your own children or grandchildren if you have any, or a niece or a nephew and serious contemplate you encouraging them to strap explosives around their torso and killing themselves to make a political statement. Then come back and tell me you approve.

  11. OTOH: I saw a documentary last night supposedly centered on addressing the innaccuracies in the protocols of the elders of zion…this interested me because this is a soviet based document that has circulated from the turn of the 20th century. I was ready for a truthful and frank, intellectual treatment of the issue… instead what I got was an ADL propanda flick which went on a Mikey Moore-styled witch hunt throughout other ethnic groups in America finding the slightest derogation of Isreal to be “anti-semitic resurgence”.
    It was sickeningly openly manipulative spin which I found to be more over the top than any of the propaganda American Islmaist orgs have propagated.
    Frankly, the political spin is so thick on the whole Islmaist-Zionist agendas issue that I can’t really take sides any more…it all seems to be a desparate attempt to involve you in taking a side in an ancient death struggle between 2 intolerant and paranoid militant cultures that will not end until they have eradicated each other.
    I just want to make sure this degenerate ethnic infighting does not play out in my country.

  12. My question to the left leaners is how do you stop this mentality?
    Can anyone offer a positive solution?

  13. WLMackenzie – you are right. The indoctrination goes on, on both sides. To even claim that Israeli children are not taught to dislike, hate and wish for the death and disappearance of the ‘arabs’ is naive. It’s on both sides – akin to the Catholic and Protestant hatreds in Ireland.
    The only solution, in my mind, is a two-state agreement. Israel rejects this in fact, occupies and settles the Palestinian land – and the Palestinian side is now being used by Islamic fascists.
    Islamic fascism and the Israel-Palestinian situation have nothing to do with each other, but Islamic fascism has taken over the Palestinian side in the last few years (not for the benefit of Palestine about which they don’t give a damn). This has worsened the situation.

  14. WL & ET: I’m calling you both on your BS.
    The movie shown in this post is of state sponsored annihilatory brainwashing of kids, period. Unless you are saying something that foul exists in Israel, you’re both blathering.

  16. Funny ET and WLMackenzie I don’t ever remember seeing a video where Israeli parents send their children off to blow up Palestinians. In my view Israel and the Jews have given so much to our world, scientists, doctors (I have 2), musicians and business leaders, what have the middle eastern countries given the world, nothing. 80% of optical surgical equipment comes from Israel. Have you ever bought a product from Syria, Iran or Saudi Arabia.
    If Israel disappeared tomorrow would the stupid Palestinians stop killing each other, not a chance.
    The northern Ireland Catholics and Protestants stopped the IRA and the Protestant paramilitary groups from killing when the whole society, particularly the women, were sick of it. The Arab’s religion and culture glorifies butchery and death. If it wasn’t for the oil, which one day will be gone, no one would give a damn for the whole middle east. The civilized world moved on from these thugs squatting in the sand centuries ago.

  17. There was a documentary; “60 Minutes” done a few years ago that pictured muslim youth being taught the same garbage in schools in the US. When I was a youth I remember school friends who went to religious schools on the weekend. There was no separate religious school. They didn’t seem to suffer.
    I have been told that there are large elaborate Mosques being built in Canada with Saudi money that are backed by the radical Whabbi sect. There is one outside of Edmonton. Any truth to this?

  18. greenmamba and david hand – No, it isn’t bullshit. Both sides indoctrinate their children to hate each other. That’s a fact – and the behaviour of the settlers to the local Palestinian farmers is just as filled with hatred as the opposite. There are orthodox rabbis calling for the annihilation of all arabs – the hatred exists on both sides.
    The fact that Islamism has never, since its inception, produced a single scientific or technological idea is also valid; I’ve been saying that for some time. But that is completely different from this concept of personal animosity.
    The fact that Islam rejects the individual, rejects reason, rejects questioning, means that it has no capacity for science, for technology, for adaptative techniques. That’s a basic flaw; that makes it parasitic on western culture – which moved out of the rejection of reason and the individual about 800 years ago. Islam is still stuck in a medieval mindset. But this has nothing to do with that personal animosity between peoples. It’s a serious problem within Islam and both Islam and the West have to acknowledge this. The West has to reject the Islamic refusal to modernize and accept individual freedom.
    Islam is indeed a tribal sociopolitical mode based around a pastoral nomadic and migratory economy which requires a large migratory land base. My own view is that it developed as a social response to Christianity – which was an agricultural or settling social mode, not tribal and mobile, and was expanding in the ME. This expansion moved into old tribal lands; the Christian agricultural mode encouraged peoples to live together (love thy neighbour). The Islamic sociopolitical system developed to prevent the agricultural takeover of their lands by the settling of many collaborative towns. So, Islam is indeed a militant, warrior culture.
    It has to acknowledge this contextual nature of its origins – and – grow out of it. Modernize. This is very difficult to do, as Islam specifically rejects reason!!!
    But the Palestinian-Israel land occupation situation has NOTHING to do with Islam, Islamism, Islamic fascism and Judaism. Nothing. It’s about land, self-government and having an economy. The fact that in the last ten years this situation has been sabotaged by Iran and Al Qaeda moving into with their fascism is different from the land situation. As I’ve said, most Arabs look down on the Palestinians as ignorant peasants –
    So, I’ll maintain my opinion.

  19. ET: There are orthodox rabbis calling for the annihilation of all arabs
    That’s possible but it’s not state-sponsored. Equating the two is the problem. (I’d be interested to see the proof of it by the way.)
    But the Palestinian-Israel land occupation situation has NOTHING to do with Islam, Islamism, Islamic fascism and Judaism. Nothing. How interesting. It seems strange then that after WWI land was carved up to create various Arab states with little ado until it came to the issue of putting a Jewish territory in a tiny area.
    ET you’re mostly very smart but on this issue, you make no sense.

  20. This is repugnant and disgusting beyond description.
    Show me the same hate indoctrination by any person in any culture, I will give that equal condemnation.
    Do not overlook one major problem with this type of indoctrination – its nearly irreversibile. Suppose Israel today capitulates and a peace treaty is signed?
    How do you put this indoctrination genie back into the bottle? That’s not peace. That’s merely a halt to overt hostilities.
    To pursue this kind of indoctrination reveals that there is no sincere intention of pursuing peace. I have the same criticism of the settlements in the lands captured in 1967. As far as I am concerned the settlers take the risk that they either lose their homes and businesses by abandoning them, or become residents of a new regime.
    If you want peace, you must act as though it is possible.

  21. Agree, shaken, ‘if you want peace you must act as though it is possible’. And the occupation, the settlements, the settler behaviour towards the local Palestinian farmers etc – all reveal that there is no concept of the peace of a two-state solution.
    As for indoctrination, greenmamba, check out Ha’aretz Daily and Peace Now for various statements of what’s going on. The indoctrination is on both sides. It’s social indoctrination; Palestine doesn’t have a state.
    And I’ll repeat that the Israeli-Palestinian land base situation has nothing to do with Islam. It’s a sociopolitical not a religious problem. Again, in the last decade, the Palestinian fight has been sabotaged by the Islamic fascists – but Islamic fascism has a different origin – and a different solution. Getting a Palestinian state at last will not stop Islamic fascism.
    As for the settlers, the fact that they are willing to settle on land set aside for the Palestinians means that they clearly show no intention of a two-state solution.
    Indoctrination is indeed almost irreversible. I always told my students that it takes at least three generations to change a social structure. The old generation, indoctrinated, have to die out; the current generation, indoctrinated but faced with the new must make decisions; it is only the new generation who can be free of the old ideology.

  22. ET, do you disagree that the Islamic indoctrination in all that hatred, supremacism, imperialism and glorification of death… is not provoked, that it actually has its deepest roots within the verses of the Koran? That Islam itself, via these verses, is the root of the Islamic hatred?
    And do you disagree that the Israelis needn’t “indoctrinate” their children to feel the way they do towards the Muzis? Really… what’s wrong with telling one’s kids that a certain group of people who’s hellbent on wiping out one’s entire people are a bunch of monsters?
    Isn’t it true that whatever “hatred” Israelis might justifiably feel towards a cult of folks who continuously kill and promise to kill their people simply for being Jewish or Israeli or non-Muslim is a result of the Muzis’ hatred of and atrocities commited against them?

  23. And why should Israel pursue a two-state solution if the other “state” will only be founded upon the concept of Islamic supremacism and of “pushing Israel into the sea” and “killing all Jews, wherever, whenever…”?
    Trust me, ET, you’re very intelligent and write extremely well, but I cannot agree with all of your positions on the MidEast thing. But disagreement isn’t necessarily a bad thing, unless one’s a Fundamentalist Muslim or a leftist or a climate change alarmist, as we well know. 😉

  24. These types of videos are coupled with Documentaries I have rented on DVD and they were
    staged acts of violence in Gaza , in fact there was a fake ambulance, fake Hospital, fake Doctors and fake blood .
    We in the West are being fed lies , and the Jack Layton’s in Canada have been fooled to get in bed with the Islamofacsists that are in the guise of the “Peace” protesters , plus , Canadians are having their Tax dollars stolen from them and given to the CBC that would never
    dare offend the Jihadists or suicide bombers for fear of becoming a Theo van Gogh victim of Sharia law .
    The NoWar website claims Females are worse off in Afgan now then when the Taliban controlled the nation, and they had the nerve to infer that Muslims and Arabs aren’t worth our soldiers blood and we should get out and let the Taliban come back to power.

  25. Canadian sentinel – you are, I suggest, confusing two different situations.
    I maintain that the Palestinian hatred of the Israelis is due to the take-over of their land, eg homes, farms, to which they as individuals had legal title, without compensation; and the generation long occuption of the other lands set aside for their own state; and the illegal settlements of this land.
    This has nothing to do with any religion. I find it astonishing- I repeat – astonishing, that anyone could conclude that such actions by israel as I’ve outlined should result in anything other than intense anger and resentment from the Palestinians. Of course they want to ‘wipe them out’; their homes and farms are gone without compensation, their allotted lands are settled by others and they aren’t allowed near those lands – and they can’t get Israel to recognize the right of a Palestinian state. What do you expect other than anger?
    The Islamic religion has nothing to do with the occupation, the settlements etc. I, for example, am not going to state that the Jewish religion has anything to do with the occupation either, even though it is within their religion that they claim all the land. I’m sure you know that the Jewish religion claims all the land, and the settlers keep repeating this as the basis of their ‘right to settle’.
    It is a sociopolitical situation and requires a sociopolitical solution – two states.
    Most certainly, the Islamic religion is a tribal and warrior religion. I’ve already outlined my analysis of why I think it emerged and operates as such. However, the Koran, in my view, rambles; it advocates both peace and war. The Islamic nations could, for example, have warred against the British in the ME (as Christians). Saudi Arabia, a rigid Islamic nation, could refuse to allow Christians in its territory – but- it relies heavily on non-Muslims to work in the oil industry. My point is that the Islamic nations are not automatically fighting against other religions.
    But, Islam is not the same as Islamic fascism and I think you are making an error in merging the two. Islamic fascism is a dangerous offshoot of Islam – beginning about 60 years ago. Lawrence Wright’s book The Looming Tower is an excellent outline of the growth of Al Qaeda fascism.
    So, I disagree with your view that the Israeli hatred towards the Palestinians is only a reaction to Palestinian anger. It isn’t such a one-way street; the Palestinians are angry because of their loss of homes and farms, and the illegal settlements. Why shouldn’t they be angry?
    Again – it is a serious error in my view to think that this situation and Islamic fascism have anything to do with the other.

  26. Has anyone by chance seen if this video has been independently verified for source and for accuracy of content?
    jewsagainstzionism.com/

  27. You’re not answering ET. You get your anti-Israel info from Israeli sources because it’s an open society and very liberal. The state of Israel does not practice the preaching of hate. Mainstream Israel* does not use indoctrination like that of the Palestinians and yes, I know they don’t have a state. They do however have administrative systems, paid for by the west that DO OFFICIALLY INDOCTRINATE. Europe in particular has stood by and let it happen.
    *I have childhood friends that moved to Israel & if there was official indoctrination they would tell me.
    You also ignored my 2nd point which is essentially that the Arabs at large ONLY got concerned when Jews were to get a territory. Your terminology seems to back up what I said.
    You also seemed to agree with WLM’s reference to ancient death struggle between 2 intolerant and paranoid militant cultures… I don’t see this description fitting Judaism too well either from the religious perspective nor the actual fact that Judaism has spawned both Christianity and Islam both of which have certainly thrived (and indulged in much Jew killing). Your comment on this might be instructive.

  28. ET, I’m sorry, but you don’t understand.
    A history lesson…
    Judea and Samaria are legally Israeli land. It isn’t “Palestinian” land. No. In fact, before Israel won these territories in the war of 1967 in which it was attacked, these lands belonged to the Egyptians and the Jordanians, not to the “Palestinians”. The land was captured by Israel in a proper war, which entails that it’s Israeli land, period, notwithstanding what anyone says.
    All Islamic attacks on Israel are rooted in Islam. I’m surprised you don’t know this.
    I recommend further research. Over time.
    To begin, I recommend you read the following:
    http://www.jewishworldreview.com/cols/horowitz041002.asp

  29. I can tell that a lot of intelligent folks don’t understand the reality of the MidEast, Islam, Judaism, Israel, etc…
    Historical research is a must. One needs to absorb the truth like a sponge… keep reading, reading, reading historical information. It isn’t that hard if one wants to learn. Didn’t take me long at all.

  30. I posted another comment, with a very good link that explains the situation re. Israel and the Muslims residing in the area commonly referred to as “Palestine”.
    The point is that “Gaza” (Samaria) and the “West Bank” (Judea) are actually legally Israeli land, won in the war of 1967 from the previous owners, Egypt and Jordan. There is no “Palestine”, nor has there ever been, in fact.
    That link… I hope it’s released from moderation, to which stuff sometimes gets diverted…

  31. The Canadian Sentinel: the problem with historical research is that there are different versions and one can believe according to one’s predisposition. I believe the key is to apply some common sense based on what is happening today, to assist with determining the true history.
    I also use what I call historical induction. It assumes that if a certain society or political system is going in a particular direction it will keep doing that unless a specific event changes things. For that reason I see no peace on the horizon from the Arab side.

  32. ET, can you give an example of Jews indoctrinating their children into hatred of Palestinians? I thought that stabbings, kidnappings, suicide bombings and mortar/katyusha shelling by Hamas has indoctrinated more Jews of all ages into hating terrorism, than any ‘establishment’ ever could.

  33. well, greenmamab, I consider that I’m answering you, and I’m bringing up other issues which you don’t seem aware of; for example, that indoctrination comes via various official sources. In Israel it can come from the rabbis – and remember, Israel is a theocratic democracy; it has an official religion and it wishes its citizens to be, in the majority, members of that religion.
    Your second point doesn’t make sense – that the Arab states only got concerned when Jews were to get a territory’. Naturally, why would they be concerned before? The Palestinians owned and lived on their farms – there was no problem.
    The statement of ‘two intolerant and paranoid militant cultures’ certainly fits the current situation but that’s a contextual situation, and unrelated to their religions and ethnicity.
    I don’t agree that Judaism spawned Christianity and Islam. I consider that all three religions are, as are all religions, social and conceptual ideologies, created by humans for humans. I’m an atheist, so I look at the economic, social, political infrastructure of ‘how and why’ did a religion appear.
    Judaism is the oldest, and developed, I feel, within a tribal small scale peasant economy, with a certain amount of migration (goats, sheep) and small settlements. It is tribal in that it is socially and economically organized by kin-membership. The fact that kinship is defined matrilinally (by the mother’s side) suggests that a good part of the economy was garden produce. It is a ‘no-growth’ economy. It doesn’t seek to expand or convert.
    Christianity is completely different. It developed, I suggest as a result of the Roman settlements, irrigation technologies, roads, fresh water supplies, market towns etc – All of these Roman developments enabled the settling of more land and enabled the growth of populations. This expanding population and agriculturalism required a different social order than the small, kin based, no-growth Judaic mode. Christianity is NOT tribal – very important. You become a member by choice not by blood. A vital change.
    And, it specifically rejects the isolationism of tribes and tribal land ownership, for the concept of the Market economy – which requires acceptance and love of others, neighbourliness, compassion etc…all to prevent the old tribal wars and enable an expanding population to get along. So, Christianity is a result of the Roman technology, which enabled increased populations, a settled village based agriculture, market interactions and required peaceful collaboration.
    Islam, as I said, developed as a result of the expansion of the Christian agricultural base. It, unlike Christianity, is tribal. You are born into the religion or, convert by force. And you cannot leave. I suggest that it developed within what is called a pastoral nomadic economy. All the rules of Islam reveal such an economy – I won’t go into them all, but the patriarchy, the isolation of women, the subordination of women – all show a migratory male-based economy based around the herding of large animals (camels, goats, sheep) and very little reliance on settled planted crops.
    I suggest what happened is that the Christian religion plus Roman technology enabled a huge population and agricultural growth in the ME, with everyone settling, getting along more or less, interacting – and moving into the land base of the pastoral nomads.
    So- Islam developed as a reaction to this agricultural expansion. Islam is very clear – that it will fight the occupation of its lands, will fight, will insist on conversion, and no-one must convert to Christianity etc etc. This is a reaction from a people whose economic mode and land base was disappaering – and rather than become agriculturalists – they set up islam to retain their old economic mode.
    It’s a reactionary, militant sociopolitical religious mode, gathering its peoples into an army. No-one is allowed to think, to debate, you all obey orders from the top.
    That’s my view of the three dev’t of those three religions.
    I am not using ‘anti-Israel’ data; I’m using data. Period. The fact that this data criticizes Israeli behaviour is not equivalent to being anti-Israel.
    Your anecdotal evidence from your friends is, as I’m sure you know, insufficient evidence of lack of authoritative indoctrination.

  34. Then come back and tell me you approve. ”
    well laddie, dont see anywhere I expressed approval of this. but that wouldnt be the 20th time righties choose to make unsupported claims about me.
    on the other hand it is the final conclusive widely available proof of what Prime Minister Golda Meir said, no peace in the ME as long as arabs hate Jews more than they love their own children.

  35. ET, what are your views on why the Israel/Palestine issue is embraced as a rallying cause by Islamofascism? Why bother? Doesn’t the Koran and Allah’s provide reason and justification enough? Why add a cloaking layer that obscures, rather than clarifies?
    I have no knowledge of indoctrination in Israel, so I cannot comment. However, I will say that the settlements on the lands captured in 1967 is not the wisest action, as it is demonstrates a permanence rather than making it overt that return of these lands is bargainable.
    I belief there is great value in dissecting the logic behind Islamofascism’s usurping of the Palestinian cause, and, I look forward to your comment on same, ET.

  36. shaken – there’s a nice article in today’s Ha’aretz on Future Vision; vs dividing and ruling, explaining how Israel is dealing with the Palestinians by a ‘divide and rule’ tactic, dealing with the 1 million Israeli Arabs in one way (there are restrictions on what they can do); the 1.5 million in Gaza, presumed to be governed by Hamas; the 2 million in the West Bank, presumed to be governed by Fatah – but settlements are going on at rapid speed in the West Bank, the 1/4 million in East. Jerusalem. The point is, to prevent a unification of these balkanized groups.
    As for indoctrination, it goes on in the settlements all the time – enabling the settlers to justify their settlements, their destruction of the neighbouring farms of local Palestinians etc.
    I think that the Israeli-Palestinian land ownership war has been cynically taken over by the Islamic fascists because it acts as a cover for terrorist violence. Terrorism is a vital aspect of Islamic fascism. Again, the book by Lawrence Wright is very good, but also books on fascism which show the utopian and therefore irrational and emotionalism of fascism.
    At any rate, I think that Islamic fascism is a result of the introduction of an industrial economy into the ME after both world wars – along with the utter inability of Islam, as a sociopolitical and econmic mode, to adapt to industrialism. This conflict between the reality and demands of an industrial economy along with the inability of Islam to enable and operate within industrialism – has led to Islamic fascism.
    Islamic fascism is a ‘last ditch’ retreat, a refusal to change, an insistence that ‘we must all stay as we were’. And ‘as we were’ is defined as a non-industrial, tribal, medieval holistic society. A society that completely rejects reason, thinking, questioning – and therefore science. That completely rejects the individual and therfore, rejects freedom of speech and action. A society that considers that ‘at one time in the past’ we were pure and good. It focuses on an Essential Purity of the Past. That’s its fascist utopianism. It desires to set up the society so that this goodness, this purity will somehow be expressed and the profane changes introduced by industrialism..will disappear.
    Fascism is an expression of a society that requires change but it considers this change denigrating – and redefines its past as Pure and Noble and seeks to go back.
    As I said, Islam got itself into this mess because it had originally set up its religious and cognitive identity to disable reason and thought. It prevented itself, right there, from any capacity to change.
    The West went through this crisis in the years from 1200 to 1500. But Islam not only set up its religion denying reason..rather similar to the christianity of the 1200s..but, after the wars, it moved into military dictatorships. These dictatorships were empowered by oil. So, unlike hte reformation in the west, the people in the ME could not rebel. Not against those military dictators.
    So- you had the ME states moving into industrialism. Industrialism requies a middle class, who have power, who can vote, who can govern, who have economic power. In the ME, it retained tribalism. No middle class. Only a dominant tribe and the rest of the population on state welfare so to speak. Then, this population moved from rural to urban. But, still, they had no political or economic power. This tribalism, keeping the people out of power by force – exploded.
    It ought to have ‘imploded’ within civil wars in the ME, to topple the military dictators. But, it couldn’t because they were too strong. So, the rage against this lack of economic and political power went outside. it exploded into fascism, which gives the people a sense of power that ‘at one time’ they were pure and noble and good.
    NOTICE – this purity, nobleness and goodness was NOT taken from them by the West or the Evil US or imperialism. This power-that- is purity was taken from them by their own tribal leaders, that tribal infrastructure, that refusal to set up democracy. The ME exploded into fascism because of the lack of democracy – which would empower a middle class. And Islam, as a religion would have to reform.
    So- none of this has anything to do with Israel and Palestine, but is all about the industrialism of the ME and yet, the refusal to change the political mode from a tribal to a civic mode, the refusal to develop a middle class, the refusal to empower the people in the ME wihtin their own nations.

  37. ET: Your anecdotal evidence from your friends, that was an adjunct to my main point but these people had kids in school there. They are not racist people and I would know if their kids were taught in such a fashion as the kids in that movie. YOU ARE THE ONE CLAIMING EQUIVALENCE.
    Based on your views of Islamic sociology ET, I fail to understand your concern for the Palestinians. You remind me a bit of Noam Chomsky here. I saw a movie of a debate wherein the moderator suggested that the 2 sides (him and Dershowitz) try and forget history and focus on solutions. Chomsky has such a pickle-on about Israel he could not do that and ended up, in my view making a complete fool of himself. The point is you seem to have an obsession with blaming Israel, even after pointing out the flaws with Muslim society. Do you not think that some of Israel’s behaviour is engendered by these flaws?
    My solution is for the entire West to tell the Arabs on Israel, to get over it and accept it and for Egypt and Jordan to take care of the Palestinians. The world has to live with the Middle East Muslims – they have oil and hence, money to obtain nukes. If they can be made to accept a modern democracy in their midst, there is hope. If not and Israel goes, we’re next.

  38. Israel includes Muslims as ministers in their government, as well as many Muslims and Arab Druze as citizens. I don’t think the Palestinian ‘government’ or any Islamic government, for that matter, does the same. In fact it is illegal for a Jew to enter Saudi Arabia.
    I do not believe Israeli’s teach their children to hate near as much as Palestinians do – who are in fact inculcated in hate as part of their school system curriculum.
    However, having said that, the Jewish Talmud is full of hate, perhaps as much as the Quran. For example:
    Baba Mezi’a 114b “R. Simeon b. Yohai said: The graves of Gentiles do not defile, for it is written, And ye my flock, the flock of my pastures, are men; only ye are designated ‘men’.” (only Jews are human)
    Sanhedrin 57a “For murder, whether of a Cuthean by a Cuthean, or of an Israelite by a Cuthean, punishment is incurred; but of a Cuthean by an Israelite, there is no death penalty”
    Sanhedrin 58b. If a heathen (gentile) hits a Jew, the gentile must be killed.
    Sanhedrin 57a . When a Jew murders a gentile (“Cuthean”), there will be no death penalty. What a Jew steals from a gentile he may keep.
    Yebamoth 98a. All gentile children are animals.
    Abodah Zarah 36b. Gentile girls are in a state of niddah (filth) from birth.
    Abodah Zarah 22a-22b . Gentiles prefer sex with cows.
    Etc. etc. etc.
    So, indeed, those Rabbi’s (and parents) who recite and teach certain verses from the Talmud do indoctrinate in hate and bigotry, as much as any Imam.

  39. “protocols of the elders of zion…this interested me because this is a soviet based document that has circulated from the turn of the 20th century. ”
    Well, no as a matter of fact it was most likely produced by the Okhrana, the Russian secret police under the Tsar. It was popularized by people opposed to the revolution in Russia. (Many revolutionary leaders were Jewish.)

  40. It appears the Muslims have been and continue to be the architects of their own demise.
    Humanity has evolved centuries beyond the tenets of Mohamed and our Biblical times.
    Western Democracies based on Judeo-Christian principles have adapted their doctrine to reflect
    that evolution.
    No culture can survive on extreme hatred and
    mistreatment of it’s own people.
    Treating Muslim women as faceless beings covered in cloth is one example. Other atrocities perpetrated on women are unthinkable in civilization.
    If the world were to follow the Ten Commandments,
    within modern day reason, we would have a much
    more peaceful world.

  41. ‘OkhranKa’ for that matter. Security Bureau of Tzar’s Police. I heard rumors of that, but never any hard evidence. Every mention of the origin of the POEOZ in the Okhranka was from the Soviet sources. But I am not an expert.

  42. greenmamba – I don’t blieve that I have an obsession with blaming Israel. I’ve presented both sides as flawed.
    In my view, Israel’s errors were to take over the land without compensation (after all the homes and farms were legally owned by Palestinians); then, to occupy the land set aside for the Palestinians, and to settle that land, as well as refusing to acknowledge, ever, a Palestinian state.
    The ME Arab states, in my view, were never interested in the Palestinians, considering them illiterate peasants and above all, did not want to see a Palestinian state – because it would be a democracy. They were/are utterly opposed to an ARAB democracy in their midst. Now, with Iraq set up as a democracy, that reason is no longer viable.
    BUT, the problem is that the Israeli-Palestinian situation has now been completely smothered by Islamic fascism which has taken over that situation and obscured it.
    What is important, as you note, is the development of democracy in the ME, which has moved in via Iraq rather than via Palestine. BUT, will Israel allow a Palestinian state? It’s current ‘divide into balkanized areas’ isn’t conducive to that.
    No, I disagree with you that the Palestinians are a problem for Jordan and Egypt. The fact remains, they were living there for hundreds of years, had villages, farms, homes – and just as we made treaties with our indigeneous peoples – compensation ought to have been paid. And, a Palestinian state allowed. Palestinians are not, despite your wish that they be – Jordanians or Egyptians. Just as we who are living here in Canada, even if our grandparents came from Europe, are no longer Europeans and are not the responsibility of Europe.
    Thank you irwin daisy, for your quotes. The point is, the settlers and many of the religious right, consider that ‘god gave us the land’ – a nondebatable statement – and this incites many militant actions by the settlers against the local Palestinians.
    I think that the Islamic fascist takeover, led by Iran with its own imperialist ambitions in the ME, is extremely harmful to any appearnce of a Palestinian state. After all, it’s the Islamic fascists who are using this situation – which has NOTHING to do with Islam – as a catalyst for terrorism. They are not helping Palestine; but again, my point is they dont’ give a damn about Palestianians anyway.
    As for Chomsky, no, sorry – I’m not like him, and I’ll just have to pass off that attempted insult. The only thing I accept about Chomsky is his linguistic theory of transformative grammer – which I’ve always liked very much. The rest is nonsense.

  43. Greenmamba @ 3:05-
    You’re correct. There’s differing accounts of history out there.
    Which is why it’s important to be very cerebral in one’s approach to historical fact research.
    And I wholly agree that there’ll be no peace as long as the Muzis continue to have the ability to kill Jews and attack Israel… or if Islam is reformed to eradicate the tenets which give rise to the hatred, supremacism, imperialism and murdering. But to reform Islam overnight? Impossible. It could literally take centuries. From this one has to draw one’s own conclusions.
    Ceasefires, peace talks, etc… all that is nothing more than a tool for Hamas, Fatah, Hezbollah, etc. to rearm and regroup… and resume attacking Israel. Because that is the raison d’etre of “Palestine” and the “Palestinians”. All the evidence available out there, esp. online, will prove it to the reasonable person. Once one has seen plenty of real-world evidence, there’ll be no doubt anymore. Add it all up, connect the dots, see the patterns… no doubt.
    Remember Oslo? Arafat was presented with an offer he couldn’t refuse, but he did refuse and started the Intifada. He refused because to accept the offer of the land for peace would anger Allah. Therefore he had to reject it. This is what ET hasn’t yet grasped. It is all about Islam. Islam is the root cause of the Middle East conflict as well as international terrorism/jihad by Muslims, including those acting alone. No amount of hairsplitting will ever change this very obvious reality.

  44. ET, very thought provoking comments from you today. Your response to my previous question espouses the notion that Islamofascism uses the Israel/Palestine conflict as a cover for terrorism.
    With the appropriate Koranic lens, terrorism is justified, so why the need for a cover? Cover from whom? ET, I’m not arguing with you, I really want to have your insight into this. In deference to Kate, maybe this is not the right venue. But I still would like to hear what you have to say.

  46. ET: I did not mention Chomsky to insult but to bring you to your senses.
    When you talk of the history, it is of course disputed. In any event, are you concerned specifically with post ’67 displacement of Palestinians or everything?
    Should the Jews evicted from Arab countries be factored into your fair solution or is that not important?
    Given that the Palestinian displacement occurred as a result of Arab aggression, should the aggressors not be held responsible in some measure?
    What I don’t hear from you is acknowledgement that:
    The “’67” borders are not militarily defensible, especially with more recent weapons developments
    The Arabs refused to make peace after ‘67
    These both factor heavily into the evolution of the current situation.
    You also discount that:
    Israel gave back the Sinai to Egypt – including oil wells
    Israel left Gaza (please don’t tell me it’s still a prison)
    Israel’s security barrier sets a limit on so-called “expansion”

  47. New poster, but I’ve been lurking for sometime – I know that what I am about to post has little to do with the original article, and I apologize for that. I think what those little children are being taught to believe is horrid.
    ET: While you make some valid points, your arguments about the connection between the various religions and the economic situations in which they developed is flawed.
    For starters, matrilineality is not an indicator of a society with a local/garden based economy. It is more often a way that a society copes with frequent bouts of being enslaved or conquered. There are far more low or no growth societies with the type of economy you described, both now and in the past, that are patrilineal.
    Christianity did not develop, as you suggest, because of roman technology and the settling of lands. Most of the agricultural innovations that allowed population growth during the medieval period had nothing to do with the Romans. Romans didn’t need time saving agricultural devices – they had copious numbers of slaves. On top of that, many roman innovations, such as pavement and irrigation techniques, were lost to Europe when the Germanic peoples conquered Italy. These didn’t resurface until the eleventh century, by which time the greater part of Europe had been Christianized.
    As for settlement being a factor in the development or spread of Christianity, again I disagree with you as most of Europe became Christian during the Migration Era, which was a period of steep population decline and unrest in Europe. The fact that Christianity was adopted (willingly or not) by many Germanic tribes after the fall of the Roman Empire but before any type of centralized government came into existence is evidence that Christianity does lend itself to the isolationism of a tribal mentality. It had to have been palatable to tribes and dictator type leaders or it would have died out with the Roman Empire.
    And what crisis exactly, do you think happened during the time period between 1200-1500 that denied reason or disabled thought in the west? That statement ignores the many philosophical theories and rediscoveries that made the scientific aspects of the renaissance possible. And the church didn’t stifle this thinking – it was responsible for teaching the monks and running the universities.
    I better cut myself off there and go do something more constructive than commenting – like eating chicken wings… yum.

  48. canadian sentinel – I’ll continue to disagree with you. There are two basic conflicts in the ME. One is the Israel-Palestinian situation, which has nothing to do with Islam but with land tenure. The other is Islam as a sociopolitical ideology which is unable to deal with the economic nature of industrialism. Those are two very different situations and your merging of the two is, I suggest, inaccurate.
    As for Oslo, it was indeed an unacceptable offer. It was not a recognition or enabling of a Palestinian state. Not at all. All it did was permit municipal governance of a few towns. Got that? Municipal government by the Palestinians over a town. The land, the resources, the air, the water, the roads, the borders – were all considered within Israeli jurisdiction. It would be like saying ‘well, you can run Calgary as you see fit as a city, but the resources of Alberta, the water, the air, the etc..are none of your business.
    Naturally Arafat refused this offer of municipal governance. Israel was not recognizing and never has, a Palestinian state.
    But – remember that Arafat also didn’t want a Palestinian state, ie, a democratic Palestine. He’d lose the election; he’d lose power. So he too prevented such a state in the future.
    Shaken – I think ‘cover’ from the world. After all, to use the Koran as a ’cause’ to launch terrorist attacks against the US, UK, Indonesia, etc would receive a very different response from the world, than to launch these attacks and say ‘it’s all about our brothers in Palestine’.
    I think the world would strike back against such endeavours – while if you use ‘our brothers in Palestine’ – it makes the attacks seem our fault. Not the Koran’s fault or their imperialism.
    But I think that the rise of Islamic fascism is directly linked to the rise of industrialism in the ME and the total inability of the ME states, within Islam, to change from a tribal political mode to a civic or democratic political mode.
    Tribalism is two class; there’s an elite small upper class – and the rest. And these are hereditary. A civic mode is three class. And not hereditary, very mobile and flexible and encourages hard work and enterprise. The upper and lower are, using a Bell Curve, relatively small. The majority of the population ought to be middle class. This implies freedom of economic and political participation. A two class tribal system confines that participation only to the elite upper class.
    After the World Wars, the ME both moved into industrialism, and, its population increased exponentially. Beyond the organizational capacities of a tribal two class system. They required a three class system, but, repressed it. That’s why Islamic fascism developed – to try to ‘get back power’, since the majority of the population couldn’t have economic and political power – by going back into some idealistic past era of purity. If only…
    The only way out of this impasse, is democracy in the ME – which is why I so strongly support what the US is trying to do in Iraq and NATO and we Canadians, in Afghanistan. Enable democracy, enable a middle class. That’s the only way to defeat islamic fascism.
    And, the West has to reject multiculturalism, reject accomodation of group rights and insist on the development of a common civic society. Islam has to reform itself – Some people think it’s impossible, some people think it can. I think it can. After all, it’s man-made, so it can be man-unmade.
    As for the situation in Israel and Palestine, the takeover of this by the Islamic fascists has been disastrous for the Palestinians. Absolutely disastrous. How dare the Fascists use the Palestinian situation as a cover for their own agenda!? But they have – and they might just have destroyed any future for a Palestinian state.
    I’ve no idea what will happen. Certainly, Israel will refuse the one-state solution (only Israel), even if that one-state incorporates all those balkanized Arab Areas (West Bank, Gaza, etc) because Israel insists on a Jewish population majority.
    As long as the Islamic fascists control Hamas etc, and as long as Iran is busy interfering, then, Palestine can’t get its act together. And I don’t see how they could get a state anyway, made up of separate portions smack in the middle of another country.
    Even if – let’s be magicians here – if the mutual hatreds of a full two generations could magically disappear – then, what would the role of the Palestinians be? They can’t be Israeli because of the Jewish requirement. What good is a balkanized set of mini parcels of land? They are not and never were, Jordanians and Egyptians – and neither country wants to touch them anyway.
    So – I have no idea what the solution is. It is moving towards that ghetto style balkanized regions..but..that’s no good.

  49. I will remind eveyone of the rules. If you wish to engage in extended debates, take it to email. Generally, if you’ve posted three times in response to another commentor, it’s (past) time to go to email.

  50. daniella – I have never, ever, heard of such a definition of matrilineal. Never – and I’ve been in anthropology for 30 years. Matrilineal societies are more often found in garden-based economies, while patrilineal are found in economies that require hunting, or dealing with migratory animals, or, agriculture (as differentiated from horticulture).
    What does the emergence of the Christian religion, at or around 4 BC/AD have to do with the medieval period in Europe? My point is that it is an agricultural religion, based around encouraging peoples to settle, to get along with each other as neighbours and trade partners. All of this was a result of the expansion of population and contacts made possible by the Roman empire. This demographic change required a different ideology, one that merged people and encouraged collaboration – Christianity.
    As for Christianity’s expansion into Europe, this was a natural phenomenon of the increase in population and the rise of settlements as agriculture developed across that land base. Remember, the Church became a dominant economic and political agent in this era.
    I strongly disagree that Christianity operates within a tribal mentality. Absolutely not. Its basic axioms are collaboration, focus on neighbours, kindness, etc. That’s not isolationism. And, unlike tribalism, it is a religion of choice (baptism)not heredity.
    I don’t know what you are talking about with reference to ‘denial of reason and disabled thought’ in the west from 1200 to 1500. My point was that this was the era when the West fought the church for the right of the individual to think, question, explore. See Abelard’s famous ‘dubitando’ (I doubt) for which the church tried to get him as a heretic. It was a bloody battle over those years, when people fought the church for that right to think, to invent, to innovate. The church most certainly did stifle thought; that’s well documented, and the fight to separate not only church and state, but knowledge from the domain of the church – was hard fought..and finally won.

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