Well, I guess we’re all taking turns at evaluating the circumstances of the sad death of Tom Fox in Iraq (see here and here).
So here’s my take on it. My beef is with the Christian Peacemaker Teams. Not in that they sent people into a dangerous area resulting in a death. But in that for their insistence on using the label of “Christian”, they seem to be behaving in a distinctly un-Christian manner.
They seem to have confused “turn the other cheeck” with “turning a blind eye”. They can call themselves teams, or even peacemaking teams. But Christian? That’s a tough sell for me.
Ann Walsh skips right over the political “disconnect” of CPT’s own words describing their Iraqi “mission”. To concentrate only on “abuse” from “U.S. Forces” as they do is to conveniently omit abuse by other forces.
The wording they chose may be unfortunate or imcomplete, but it is undeniably “safer” for their crew and thus dishonest and not truly “faith-based”. It was a political expression. For that they are responsible of “nuancing” the Word of God.
Of course they were sincere. That goes without saying. Jesus was sincere when he “unpeacefully” took a scourge and by swinging it back and forth ran a bunch of money-changers and merchants out of the Lord’s house. Which pacifists don’t like to discuss.
Richard,
No you don’t. I suppose if you don’t believe in God, and you think trusting him in ‘stupid’ then I can see how you might interpret the statement “we should always trust in God” as leading to aimless wandering and passivity. Your interpretation of this statement, however, would not be correct. (And I notice you didn’t respond to any of my other points). Wisdom, discernment, trust in God’s direction, the ability to discern right from wrong are all God-given qualities which we as people have to use every day.
Not sure it’s been mentioned, but if you are talking theology and warfare it is important to remember that Jesus did not rebuke the soldier for being a soldier and did perform a miracle for him.
Also, the denial of G-d has been responsible for more deaths in history than any faith.
Ann, I didn’t respond to your other points because they didn’t warrant it. The question is simple. A suicide bomber does what he does through the courage of his convictions. Is he to be honored for that trait alone, yes or no?
Now, I understand that the phrase “He helps those who help themselves” is not a quote from the Bible. It’s a summary of the whole thing!
Further, if you’d like to match quotes from the bible where it is shown that God expects us to work, we’ll start with Gen 3:19 – “In the sweat of thy face shalt thou eat bread, till thou return unto the ground; for out of it wast thou taken: for dust thou [art], and unto dust shalt thou return.”
(Layman’s summary: If you’re going to eat (survive/live), you’re going to work for it and it’s going to be that way till the day you die.)
Being as well versed as you are, you can’t dispute that that selection tells us that if something needs to be done, that we have to work to make it so. That we are responsible as individuals. Having faith in one’s God does not preclude this requirement.
My assessment of your argument stands.
Show me where in the Bible Christ advocated killing, murder or physical violence, or suggested that we should act like we think we’re God in visiting judgement on our enemies by ending their lives.
Christ did uphold the Law, and sometimes that involves killing. There is a law against premeditated homocide and the penalty is death.
Matthew 5:18, “For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.”
Christ said to love our enemies. Do you love your children, if you have any? Do you correct them when they do wrong?
We should do the same to our enemies. That’s love (agapao).
Christ also said that a murderer (premeditated homocide) cannot have salvation.
1 John 3, “…ye know that no murderer hath eternal life abiding in him.”
Matthew 5:21, “Ye have heard that it was said by them of old time, Thou shalt not kill (phoneuo – criminal homocide); and whosoever shall kill (phoneuo – criminal homocide) shall be in danger of the judgment:”
Saddam and his crowd are murderers and need to be put to death to face the Judge and their victims. That’s God’s Law.
Richard,
Hmm, I don’t really see what you’re trying to accomplish with your quotation about work. Of course God wants us to work, individually and in groups, to advance his Kingdom “to do justice and to love mercy and to walk humbly with thy God” (to quote Micah). The importance and dignity of Work (God’s, ours, all work) are major themes in Scripture, as is the idea that people must trust in a wisdom more infallible than their own (an accessible wisdom which can be discerned through the scripture, through the teaching of faithful believers, teachers, theologians, saints and apostles).
I’m game for trading Biblical quotations with you if you like. Here’s a favorite of mine. Jesus endured the cross, we are told in scripture, because “He trusted the injustice of His suffering to Him who judges justly” (I Peter 2:23). If you’re a believer, then you trust that God knows better than you do — that was my point.
“My assessment of your argument stands.”
Which was what exactly?
And I stand by mine that yours is based on a false analogy. The Nazis had convictions. Of course they were and are unacceptable to moral people, regardless of their religion.
The point behind the “work” quote was to show that we have to take matters into our own hands and not wait for God to do them for us because he won’t. To use the biblical theme, we are required to predict that seeds, if planted, and tended, will grow into a crop. Hence, the phrase, “Reaping what you’ve sown”.
Our friend Tom Fox, having the same predictive ability as the rest of us, ignored the possible results of his actions and got dead because of it. You and the other apologists above are claiming that he was acting on his faith and it’s my assertion that faith is meaningless and negated when an individual is acting foolish.
Picture our friend Tom consiously seeking out some railway tracks. When he finds them, he stands in between them and waits for a train. When the train comes, he starts to pray: “God will save me, God will save me”. After Tom dies his horrible death at the hands of the train, you folks get on the message boards and proclaim what a good Christian he was because he was acting on faith. That he should be honored by that fact alone.
No, he was acting on stupidity.
God gave us the tools to avoid standing on the train tracks to begin with. Tom ignored them. He didn’t help himself first.
That’s the whole point Anne…
Richard,
So you answer my objection that your earlier argument was based on a false analogy with another false analogy?
BTW, I already made a point about an earlier poster’s comparison of Tom Fox to someone playing in a freeway. I don’t need to make it again — go read it for yourself, if you have the inclination.
Comfort yourself with the idea that Tom Fox was “stupid” and his faith “meaningless” if you like. Luckily your judgment is not the one that matters in this case.
Ok Anne, lets make this a little simpler for you. Answer me this: Is the story about the Christians and Lions a false anology? If not, tell me please, did the Christians go looking for the Lions or were they brought together through circumstances beyond their control?
The CPT is out looking for the Lions luv…
The CPT is out looking for the Lions luv…
And completely ignoring the Tigers, Crocs and Hyenas. What good do you suppose this does?
Where are the CPT active besides Iraq and Israel, that is, where the “bad guys” are Americans or Jews? The CPT seem to be “useful idiots” as the Soviets used to describe Westerners who would shill for the enemy and basically promote an anti-American, anti-capitalism agenda. Does the CPT operate in the Sudan where Arab Muslims are slaughtering black Muslims, Christians, and Animists? Does the CPT do anything for Falon Gong in Communist China? What about North Korea? The Americans are a force for good in the world and the CPT just don’t seem to see it that way. I feel bad for Tom Fox that he was murdered, but it sort of reminds of Daniel Pearl. No matter how much you sympathize with enemies of civilations, no matter if you don’t go synagogue or fast on Yom Kippur, they still see you just as an American or a Jew. There is no escape.
God gave us the tools to avoid standing on the train tracks to begin with. Tom ignored them. He didn’t help himself first.
That’s right. Ann Walsh’s argument is the same as satan’s twisting of scripture.
Matthew 4:5-6, “Then the devil taketh him up into the holy city, and setteth him on a pinnacle of the temple, And saith unto him, If thou be the Son of God, cast thyself down: for it is written, He shall give his angels charge concerning thee: and in their hands they shall bear thee up, lest at any time thou dash thy foot against a stone.”
This is a twisted quote from Psalms 91:11-12. He omitted “to keep Thee in all Thy ways” and added “at any time”.
Jesus’ answer;
Matthew 4:7, “Jesus said unto him, It is written again, Thou shalt not tempt the Lord thy God.”
Ann should learn the meaning of love (agape). It’s written;
2 John 1:6, “And this is love, that we walk after his commandments.”
His commandments, not our own.
I read it twice before I caught it. “Unless Christians are as willing to die for peace as soldiers are willing to die for war” is to cast a broad aspersion against men and women of uniform. A soldiers’ duty is to go in harms’ way and die, if need be, for peace. In democratic nations such as ours (and a nearby republic), the duty of a soldier is solely to end conflicts started by others. Hitler started WW2, we ended it. The Russians started the Cold War. We ended it. Saddam Hussein started the conflict in Iraq. The Americans and British ended it. The Russians started the mess in Afghanistan. We are trying to end it. I’ll concede a modest oversimplification for brevity, but that’s it in a nutshell. I also stand by my point that if you go into a post-war zone, and seek out those who commit atrocities in the hope that they will somehow set aside their war of hatred because you offer to pray with them, your prospects of being part of the future gene pool are limited. The American led invasion of Iraq cost some 25,000 civilian lives, roughly 3 months work by the Hussein regime. The insurgents have killed between 30,000 and 70,000 Iraqis, yet the CPT still clings to the genuinely stupid conceit that the soldiers are the bad guys. D’ya suppose they figger the US Justice dept. prosecuted John Gotti ’cause he was an Italian, or maybe a Catholic, too? Were the Allied soldiers who dumped German families out into the street in search of Nazis, or even just a place to sleep guilty of atrocities? In the waning days of WW2, there was a lot of unpleasantness that went on in Germany. Some of it lasted for the duration of the post-war occupation and there were no suicide bombers to contend with. The “de-insurgency” of Iraq will have many parallels to the de-Nazification of Germany. Get used to it.
I read it twice before I caught it. “Unless Christians are as willing to die for peace as soldiers are willing to die for war” is to cast a broad aspersion against men and women of uniform.
Good catch. That’s a dishonest statement intended to make the CPT look good. They know perfectly well no soldier dies for war.
No Christian would make such a statement.
Richard
In answer to your question about whether I hold the actions of a suicide bomber in the same regard as a Christian martyr. I did not answer because I will not speak for anyone other than those who act according to their Christian Faith. Let me explain more clearly. This event happened in Calgary a few years ago. A young Muslim man came into a Christian (denomination unimportant) Church wanting to speak to the church elder that interpreted dreams. The Christians in the church looked at each other rather bewildered because no one there interpreted dreams. The young man was quite insistant so a pastor took the young man aside and spoke to him. The muslim man immediately began to recount a recurring dream where he is running away from a great evil only to run into an endless wall that he can not get over or around. As he faced the wall in his dream he heard a voice saying, “I am the Truth the Way and the Life, no one can come to the Father except by Me.” The muslim left the Church a Christian. I do not hold up the actions of man as being honourable in themselves. The actions of man led and enabled by God fall into a different catagory altogether.
My point in all of this is not to extoll the virtues of pacifist Christianity. My point is not to extoll socialist Christianity. My point is to extoll the actions of God as He works in the lives and faiths of individuals who are called by His name and live for His purpose.
Anyone have a book of Nastrdamus(sp)prophesies. What does he say about all this, and when will it quit. Who will win. When and where will the next attack come.
The suicide bombers families were paid 25,000 after they completed their act. Some mothers encourage their sons to do this. Is it for the glory of allah, or most likely for the money. Money does strange things to people. Just follow the story re the T H roll up the rim contraversy. I just knew someone had watched to much CSI, and would demamd a DNA test to show they really drank from the cup. I hope when it gets to court the judge says the truck can’t be sold until the youngest turns 18, and neither can it be used. Serve both sets of parents right. The lawyers will be able to afford a very luxurious vacation.
Nora
You are most welcome and God Bless.
Al Qaeda. Well big Al did it! He trashes that “locked box” of US social security money with one big bang in New York. A lot of money was blown away on Iraq and other foreign areas. All this moving of mountains is heaping a mountain of debt on America. And America has fallen. Just as Communist Russia fell long before anyone really noticed. All hail the new power – China. China has the manufacturing power base and the world’s largest dam is about to go into business there. Military might has been kept under wraps for some time now but one can’t conceal a giant forever.
As for Iraq, billions have melted into the sands, never to be seen by US taxpayers ever again.
Incredible sums of money lost to foreign bank accounts. Poor America. Get used to that sound, for as American fate goes so goes Canada.
Canada has failed to protect itself from the revages to come. Corporations dominate Canada. Greedy corporations that demand more and give less by design. Poor Canada. You nhave failed to control your leaders. You do not have the best housing, education, or health care because you do not control manufacturing. How many successful independant farmers are there? Where are your tools made? Simply shuffling paper doesn’t put Canada in control of anything. You are now at the mercy of corporations and foreign powers.
But that isn’t entirely new to you, as over eighty percent of the stock market is controlled by less than three percent of the population.
I do not support the activities of these ‘Christian Peacemaker’ teams. They meddle in dangerous places.
I suppose they are shocked that ‘their side’ decided to murder Mr. Fox – I presume for being, merely, an American.
Given their Christianity I would suggest that, notwithstanding their (the teams) take on the matter, this makes Mr. Fox a martyr.
I do not support the activities of these ‘Christian Peacemaker’ teams. They meddle in dangerous places.
I suppose they are shocked that ‘their side’ decided to murder Mr. Fox – I presume for being, merely, an American.
Given their Christianity I would suggest that, notwithstanding their (the teams) take on the matter, this makes Mr. Fox a martyr.
Jonah.
How interesting. I see Tom Fox rooted out evil in the mid east and continues to root out evil right here and now. He seems to share a moment with the Danish cartoonists who rooted out evil in a similar fashion (I think he may have also done it without offending anyone’s religion). Did the cartoonist make the Darwinian awards? Is it not strange the same people that applauded the cartoonist’s provocative actions are the same one’s denouncing the value of Mr. Fox’s role in rooting out evil. It is only because Tom Fox followed the very example of the Christ he believed in that people are shocked and outraged. He probably made more headway in this war than Billions of dollars worth of military equipment.
Tom’s death was in no way vanity.
God ordered the Israelites to fight and KILL people. Obviously HE is not so against killing as so many suppose. When He orders it it is OK and when we are to protect our nation and other nations against evil it is OK.
So you cheek turners need to balance out your message a little.
That said we are to pray for our enemies and do good to them that hate us BUT when they are coming at us with explosive belts and trying to destroy themselves and others by all means protect yourself and your loved ones. You can’t love them and do good to them if your dead.