Mansoor Ijaz and Andrew C. McCarthy debate.
(link fixed – sorry!)
37 Replies to “Can Islam Reform Itself?”
Broken Link…
McCarthy and Ijaz both contribute to National Review Online but I don’t see anything there that’s a debate between just the 2 of them. A general ghougle search is no help either. Have to wate for Kate.
Muslims will not respect our laws unless they fear them. The laws in democratic countries are child play compared to Islamic laws. Muslims don’t want democracy and they scorn freedom.
They should be treated in accordance to Islamic laws. This is not possible in democratic countries. We can’t behead the detractors like in Saudi Arabia , or hang them like in Iran. We can’t torture people or flog them. But we can round them up and send them to Islamic countries where they will be dealt with in accordance to the laws that they so much uphold.
Islamic terrorism is not common crime but an act of war. Jihad is war. For the Jihadi it is a war. We must also accept it as such. Home grown Muslim militants must be treated, not just as enemy combatants but as traitors. There is a cartoon / message that fits here, you should see. http://www.faithfreedom.org/oped/sina60219p6.htm
This is not cruelty but compassion. If Muslims fear us, they will become good citizens and behave. This benefits both them and us. If on the other hand weakness is shown, they become emboldened, more lives will be lost, more terrorist attacks will take place and eventually they may suffer much more dire consequences.
There is a limit to people’s patience. If nothing is done and people rise, things won’t be very pretty and wet and dry will burn together. We must become tough now, before it’s too late.
I may not be the author of the above, but the words and idea are the same as mine. TG http://www.faithfreedom.org/oped/sina60219p6.htm
The question isn’t whether Islam can reform itself. the question is, do we have the resolve to defend ourselves against it.
Compare the outrage over the cartoons and the silence over 9/11. The excuse I have heard about 9/11 is that the Western Muslims haven’t got the numbers to give a proper outrage over what happened.
Here is a cute video cartoon that puts things in perspective………..enjoy: http://tinyurl.com/fcspw
If they can’t reform themselves and live like rational adults – then the West must at least smash their capability to harm Westerners. Muslims are quite content to kill each other with suicide bombings at their holy places and that sort of thing, and that’s fine. The West must simply make sure that these fanatics don’t get their hands on nuclear weapons. Especially since they are totally unwilling to look themselves in the mirror.
infidel:
I’ve got no problem in letting them kill each other. That sounds callous, but then we can’t fight everyones battle for the. If the moderates truly want peace they should at least shout for it. But I hear very little condemnation from them. Nevertheless keeping the nukes away from them doesn’t stop them from running planes into the side of buildings or snipers or bombing buildings etc.
respectfully
Mark
Well, I read the “debate” and must say that Mansoor can stickhandle better than Gretzky in his prime. If the Koran cannot be interpreted because it is the direct words of Allah then his argument about keeping up with the times is a bogus smoke screen. He can’t have it both ways. The fact that very few “regular” muslims do not denounce what the nutcases are doing to the religion is still disturbing.
Amen
It’s the culture stupid!
Religion plays a very small part in the behavior of many followers of the koran, just as the writings in the old testament are ignored by most christians. But when you get a mixture of medieval people with money � anything can, and does, happen!
Try these little gems for size:
a) When I burn a bull on the altar as a sacrifice, I know it creates a pleasing odour for the Lord (Lev.1:9). The problem is my neighbors. They claim the odour is not pleasing to them. Should I smite them?
b) I would like to sell my daughter into slavery, as sanctioned in Exodus 21:7. In this day and age, what do you think would be a fair price for her?
c) I know that I am allowed no contact with a woman while she is in her period of menstrual uncleanliness (Lev.15:19-24). The problem is, how do I tell? I have tried asking, but most women take offence.
d) Lev. 25:44 states that I may indeed possess slaves, both male and female, provided they are purchased from neighboring nations. A friend of mine claims that they can be black but not white. Can anyone clarify this for me? Why can’t I own whites?
e) I have a neighbor who insists on working on the Sabbath. Exodus 35:2 clearly states he should be put to death. Am I morally obligated to kill him myself?
f) A friend of mine feels that even the though of eating shellfish is an Abomination (Lev. 11:10), it is a lesser abomination than homosexuality. I don’t agree. I’m convinced it is an abomination that is quite serious and must be stopped throughout Canada. How can we settle this?
g) Lev. 21:20 states that I may not approach the altar of God if I have a defect in my sight. I have to admit that I wear reading glasses. Does my vision have to be 20/20, or is there some wiggle room here?
h) Most of my male friends get their hair trimmed, including the hair around their temples, even though this is expressly forbidden by Lev. 19:27. How should they die?
i) I know from Lev. 11:6-8 that touching the skin of a dead pig makes me unclean, but may I still partake of pork if I use a knife and fork? May I do the same thing when holding a football, or will playing football and touching the pigskin ball make me perpetually unclean in a way that cannot be undone?
j) My neighbor has a very nice garden. He violates Lev. 19:19 by planting two different crops in the same field, as does his wife by wearing garments made of two different kinds of threads(cotton/polyester blend). He also tends to curse and blaspheme a lot. Is it really necessary that we go to the trouble of getting the whole street together to stone them? (Lev. 24:10-16) Couldn’t we just burn them to death at a private affair like we do with people who sleep with their in-laws? (Lev. 20:14)
Is it just me, or does Andrew McCarthy seem a bit beligerant?
NO.
St. P
a) Invite them over for a BBQ
b) Depends on her boobies
c) Not gonna touch this one…
d) Whites will sue you
e) I think so
f) Eat a homosexual shellfish
g) Approved by Lenscrafters
h) Pull out their nosehairs one by one
i) Chopsticks are OK. Spraying the football with Pam negates the pig grunge
j) C’mon, everybody likes a good stoning!
YES!
Er, was responding to me no dhimmi…
Reformation. Don’t you have to embrace the Greeks and The Age of Enlightenment first?
Martin Luther didn’t come forward in a vaccum.
The chances of a Muslim reformation is zero.
Luther wasn’t dealing with jihad, polygamy, dhimmitude, the 72 virgin fantasy, female circumcision, cartoon rage, theocracy and the rest of Islamic dogmnatic lunacy.
Ain’t going to happen.
I know in a supposed time of crisis,we are supposed to have an open mind. We are to engage in debate.We must be seen as being tolerant..
Well,i for one don’t buy it. You cannot reform that which resists change.There will be no reformation from within as long as the mere site of an uncovered female head will get one killed.
The time for reason is long past.To all” moderate” muslims,(and i really use that term loosely,for they are just different coloured smarties from the same box..) just duck and get out of the way..
Hit the baddies and hit them hard.Damage their ability to wage war in any meaningful fashion.Make them fear you as the ender of their days.Play dirty,and remember to twist the bayonet in the ribs after you thrust.
You want to play at war? we excel at that game.Give it,and give it HARD,and just possibly they will run out of virgins ala the cartoon..
Islam teaches that those who do not convert to Islam will be converted via force. Mohammad converted via war and murder. Behind is armies were either new Muslims or corpses without heads. This is historic fact. In order to use the New Testiment Bible to justify murder and war, one has to stretch the bible completely out of context; on the other hand, in order to use the Koran to justify peaceful coexistance with other religions, one has to stretch the Koran completely out of context. So no, Islam cannot be reformed. Peaceful Muslims are heretics. Peaceful Muslims were always subjugated Muslims. Peaceful Muslims were always secular Muslims who practices a form of diluted Islam that was more akin to the occasional church goer, than to anyone who is a serious believer. Peaceful Muslims have always existed under strong dictatorship, where their faith was controlled. Peaceful Muslims exist where their Mosques and Mullahs and Imams feared the secular state. When in control, Islam always becomes crude, violent, and unbelievabley intolerant. {ie: Saudi police forcing girls to burn to death in a girl’s school, because they couldn’t exit with their Jihabs which had already been consumed in the flames.} March 2006 finds Islamic law and code on the rise in more and more nations. Those who cherish freedom, liberty, and a secular tolerant society had better wake up. Ironically, tolerance means being “intolerant” of some things.
St. Peter,
Thanks for the post. I very much enjoyed the humour. Its quite seldom that I see any jocularity here amounst the dour conservatives! Makes me believe maybe you aren’t all gun totin’ maniacs!
“Can Islam reform itself?”
Good question they seem to be nearly 600 years behind Christian church reformation and the subsequent social reformers that followed employing reformed religious values into a political philosophy which distilled Christian fairness, social justice and the dignity of the common individual into law and governance….contrary to the bloated rhetoric of nihilist-leftist dogma and muslim fanaticism, western culture’s laws and governmental democratic models are the result of the western philosophers and jurists who integrated the reformed Judeo-Christian ethic into law and governing institutions.
Not that I’m any student of Islam or even aware of it’s church’s development, but outside of the Aga Khan, I’m unaware of Islam producing any religious reformers like Matin Luther, or Calvin or Knox who rejected the theocratic rule and civil intolerance of the church of Rome…..and where are the faithful social institutional evolutionists like Coke, Blackstone and Locke in the Muslim culture?
I’m afraid that we have a global faith run by 10th century religious cultists steeped in social and theological despotism, which is now aggresively at odds with the dominant global culture that embraces a secular civil ethic based in reformed religious ethics. Tolerance tolerating intolerance. It is nothing less than a clash of cultures which is unreconcilable by any other solution than Islam engaging in 500 years of religious, philosphical and cultural evolution in a very short period of time ( about as long as the western culture’s tolerance goes)
Moderate Islam has to step up to the plate and take leadership from the antiquated fanatics….Western culture should encourage and support the moderates….if this does not produce moderation of Islm’a more base instincts we will find ourselves in a protracted global conflict of cultures which will remove a lot of the civil freedoms both cultures enjoy in peace time.
The problem in the Muslim world is that the extremists are taking over the hearts and minds of more and more of the citizens. They have designed their own “final solution” to the problems of their countries.
The question for the western world is this: how do we defend ourselves against this obvious agression without letting the extremists in our own culture take over the agenda?
If some people posting here beleive that there is no way the Muslim religion can reform itself what then is their answer? Is it to convert or kill all Muslims? Is that not as extreme a position as the terrorists? Have the terrorists not won the war already if we become just like them?
Mansoor was overly gracious and open in his debating because he was scoring zero points and on the defense, it made Andy look somewhat aggressive because he was scoring with slam dunks with his crotch in the face of the flatfooted but very sportsman-like Mansoor.
Mansoor was argueing against the direct words of his own GOD and Andy.
Mansoor got his ass kicked, but maintained his gentlemanly tact , he deserves sympathy Andy deserves the belt and a high five.
I think McCarthy won the debate, but I think Mansoor had an important point to make, which maybe didn’t come through clearly. What I got from his arguments was this:
“Can Islam reform itself? Not if we insist that it can’t.”
If we insist that Islam cannot reform itself, then our conflict is essentially with Islam itself. If we want to give the moderates a chance, then the best chance we can give them is to support and encourage any efforts toward reform, rather than condemning those efforts as weak or hopeless.
Agree with above post – This is the wrong question
The better question is:
Does our government have the intenstinal fortutude/will to revise/change our laws/enforcement of our laws so that we don’t have to be concerned about what Islam does/doesn’t do in Canada. The best defence is offence – but we arn’t used to playing this type of game. Ontario is learning with the passing of Bill 27.
The SCC ruling on the kirpin is just another nail in the whatever!!!!
Why would the Islamists reform, they seem to be winning?
One of the Islamists will drop a dirty bomb or a suitcase full of nuclear shit into the Great Lakes.
When that happens the left will accelerate their debateing.
Some other people who actually drink from the Great Lakes will want to respond with a nuclear strike to make sure our “Islamic reform debating points” get through, without another tolerant westerner being sniped from a mosque.
Chrianity passed through periods in its history that were cruel and inhumane. Change took centuries. Tolerance to coexist with other religions took centuries to evolve, and much pain to write into law and enshrine into constitutions. Secularism is a Western tradition that cost blood, intellectual energy that was tremendous, and it all took time.
Like several posters have said above, Islam has not had this historic chance. The matter is not one of fault, but of simple fact. Can Islam adapt and change? One would hope so, but let’s keep in mind that Christians who modified Christianity always wore the mantel of heretics first, and paid the price of heretics.
Expecting 1.5 Billion people to move a 1400 year old dogma into the modern era is a nice, quaint, caring, wishful thought. Some have even asked, “If some people posting here beleive that there is no way the Muslim religion can reform itself what then is their answer?” I ask, how do you move a 1400 year old dogma, that is funded by billions of oil dollars and manned by millions of fanatics, into the modern era?
Like many pompus over paid professorial pundits, Andrew and Monsoor take inordiante time [ as lawyers do ], and space to make points yet miss the crux of the argument.
Influence. Muslims, reserved and secretive by nature will be swayed by influence.
The silent majority will tend to group behind the winning trend.
If we get weak kneed in Afghanistan and Iraq and pull out, they will see the trend and follow in step with the Jihadists.
If Afghanistan and Iraq begin to stabelize, they will embrace moderartion and lean towards democracy and peace.
Let’s do the latter. 220 million in Indonnesia not to mention millions of Muslims in Afica and Aisia are watching. TG
Well said TG: Speak Peace… carry a big stick!
This debate was a wonderful example of how dialogue should work: open, rigorous, and civilized.
Can Islam be reformed?
Maybe. It is much less conductive to reform than christianity.
The christian reformation/enlightenment tooks centuries and was a very bloody thing.
But on the other hand, Islam now has an example to follow, if they choose to do so.
The best we can do is to defend ourselves from the radicals, encourage and support the moderates wherever possible, lead by example, and explain the virtues of our own system as best we can.
I believe, in the end, that people will choose freedom and elightenment.
…but until they do, we’ll have to keep our guns loaded.
“Can Islam Reform Itself?”
The answer is clear. In the English language, yes.
In Arab language and culture, the answer is a resounding ‘No!’
Islam: The Religion of the Sword. +
thursday, march 02, 2006
116 Beheadings in the Name of Islam
An Al Qaeda terrorist captured in Iraq has confessed to carrying out 116 beheadings: Suspected Kidnapper Arrested in Baghdad. (Hat tip: Rusty Shackleford.)
BAGHDAD, Iraq – Iraqi security forces have arrested a suspect in the 2004 kidnapping and beheading of a Japanese backpacker, officials said Thursday.
The Interior Ministry identified the suspect as Hussein Fahmi, a 28-year-old al-Qaida in Iraq operative arrested over two months ago in western Baghdad. Fahmi confessed to carrying out 116 beheadings, including that of 24-year-old Japanese backpacker Shosei Koda, ministry official Maj. Raid al-Mafraji said.
Fahmi, who is of Egyptian and Palestinian descent, was captured by the Interior Ministry�s counterinsurgency Wolf Brigade after a tip from local residents, al-Mafraji said. �We managed to arrest three other terrorists with him and seized a huge amount of weapons,� he said.
Japan�s chief Cabinet secretary, Shinzo Abe, said Tokyo had not yet received confirmation from Iraqi authorities of the arrest.
Koda was killed by militants in October 2004 after Japan refused to bow to their demands and pull its troops out of Iraq. His decapitated body was found wrapped in an American flag in a Baghdad street.
Al-Qaida in Iraq, led by the country�s most wanted terrorist Abu Musab al-Zarqawi, claimed responsibility for the kidnapping and beheading in a Web posting that included a gruesome video of the killing. +
via LGF
Islam is the focal point of a far more dangerous force, that of anti-modernism. This includes the radical environmental movements, anti-Western Mugabe types, and others. They are convinced that our society is “too” modern, that is the reason for poverty, and rather than modernize Africa etc, we must destroy the rich economies. Kyoto is part of this (unwittingly), so is the UN. If we let radical Islamism to flourish, it is only a matter of time before these groups cooperate and cause worldwide havoc. BTW, I have started reading Michael Crichton’s “State of Fear” and get the impression that is where his argument is heading too. One line of the book is very instructive. Drake argues it is OK to lie about increasing glaciers around Iceland, because the radical environmentalists have “truth” on their side, so it’s OK to lie, because big business baddies are lying too. Sound familiar?
“Kyoto is part of this (unwittingly)”
Not so. Kyoto is the bastard-child of Maurice Strong, mentor of ex-PM PM, Jr., and his co-conspirators. Check these sites/sources: +
Maurice Strong
Kyoto Protocol compiled by un-elected global bureaucrats … Maurice Strong: A Dr. Evil-style strategist. Owner of a 200000-acre New Age Zen colony. … http://www.taxtyranny.ca/images/HTML/Maurice-Strong/article1.html – 11k – Cached – Similar pages
The Kyoto Connection to Earth Worship
The architect of the Kyoto Protocol.” It is an eye-opener, especially the strong ties to the powers in Canadian politics. For example: Maurice Strong gave … http://www.fathersforlife.org/culture/kyoto_connection.htm – 30k – Cached – Similar pages
ESR | December 24, 2001 | Maurice Strong: Godfather of the …
While unknown to the general public, the name “Maurice Strong” elicits … Strong advocates ratification of the Kyoto treaty to stop the impending crisis. … http://www.enterstageright.com/archive/articles/1201/1201strong.htm – 32k – Cached – Similar pages
Maurice Strong coal power and Kyoto
Kyoto, environmental movement, Maurice Strong, apartment hunting in Beijing, environmental consultant, China’s burgeoning pollution, deforestation, … http://www.canadafreepress.com/2003/main012703.htm – 27k – Cached – Similar pages
Entity behind Kyoto conned public
Entity behind Kyoto conned public, maurice Strong, Earth Council, Villas del Caribe, Costa Rica, oil for food, carbon credits, kyoto, Power, Kyoto Kickback … http://www.canadafreepress.com/2005/cover042105.htm – 32k – +
Makes me believe maybe you aren’t all gun totin’ maniacs!
So what if we are? What would a chickensh*t leftist do about it? http://coldfury.com/index.php?p=5071
Abu Musab Al Zarqawi we know to be a dangerous Al-Qaida terrorist leader.
Sayyid Muqtada Al-Sadr is another, but supposedly a dangerous agent and terrorist leader supported by Iran.
Are these wealthy guys dressed all in black driving around with weapons in expensive cars from Syria or Iran or both?
There is supposed to be a warrant out for his arrest via official Al – Iraqiya TV.
This according to: http://healingiraq.blogspot.com/
I forget the Iraq blogsite now, but they made reference to Al-Sadr as a nasty who would make Saddam look like an alter boy.
It’s odd how things progress. At one time the USA joined with Saddam against Iran and Khomanie.
Now, after the Sunni are subdued somewhat, we find that Iran is supporting the Shiite majority and if things get too far out of balance that way, we will have more of a problem to deal with.
Are you getting a similar picture here? TG
How can a “religion” with capital punishment for apotasy be reformed? This is a chicken-egg problem of existential proportions.
Maz2 strong is one of the most evil leftie bastards this country ever produced.
Western Canadian: Maurice Strong, indeed: EVIL is the word. Keeping his head below the parapet lately tho I notice.
Broken Link…
McCarthy and Ijaz both contribute to National Review Online but I don’t see anything there that’s a debate between just the 2 of them. A general ghougle search is no help either. Have to wate for Kate.
Muslims will not respect our laws unless they fear them. The laws in democratic countries are child play compared to Islamic laws. Muslims don’t want democracy and they scorn freedom.
They should be treated in accordance to Islamic laws. This is not possible in democratic countries. We can’t behead the detractors like in Saudi Arabia , or hang them like in Iran. We can’t torture people or flog them. But we can round them up and send them to Islamic countries where they will be dealt with in accordance to the laws that they so much uphold.
Islamic terrorism is not common crime but an act of war. Jihad is war. For the Jihadi it is a war. We must also accept it as such. Home grown Muslim militants must be treated, not just as enemy combatants but as traitors.
There is a cartoon / message that fits here, you should see.
http://www.faithfreedom.org/oped/sina60219p6.htm
This is not cruelty but compassion. If Muslims fear us, they will become good citizens and behave. This benefits both them and us. If on the other hand weakness is shown, they become emboldened, more lives will be lost, more terrorist attacks will take place and eventually they may suffer much more dire consequences.
There is a limit to people’s patience. If nothing is done and people rise, things won’t be very pretty and wet and dry will burn together. We must become tough now, before it’s too late.
I may not be the author of the above, but the words and idea are the same as mine. TG
http://www.faithfreedom.org/oped/sina60219p6.htm
The question isn’t whether Islam can reform itself. the question is, do we have the resolve to defend ourselves against it.
Compare the outrage over the cartoons and the silence over 9/11. The excuse I have heard about 9/11 is that the Western Muslims haven’t got the numbers to give a proper outrage over what happened.
Here is a cute video cartoon that puts things in perspective………..enjoy:
http://tinyurl.com/fcspw
If they can’t reform themselves and live like rational adults – then the West must at least smash their capability to harm Westerners. Muslims are quite content to kill each other with suicide bombings at their holy places and that sort of thing, and that’s fine. The West must simply make sure that these fanatics don’t get their hands on nuclear weapons. Especially since they are totally unwilling to look themselves in the mirror.
infidel:
I’ve got no problem in letting them kill each other. That sounds callous, but then we can’t fight everyones battle for the. If the moderates truly want peace they should at least shout for it. But I hear very little condemnation from them. Nevertheless keeping the nukes away from them doesn’t stop them from running planes into the side of buildings or snipers or bombing buildings etc.
respectfully
Mark
Well, I read the “debate” and must say that Mansoor can stickhandle better than Gretzky in his prime. If the Koran cannot be interpreted because it is the direct words of Allah then his argument about keeping up with the times is a bogus smoke screen. He can’t have it both ways. The fact that very few “regular” muslims do not denounce what the nutcases are doing to the religion is still disturbing.
Amen
It’s the culture stupid!
Religion plays a very small part in the behavior of many followers of the koran, just as the writings in the old testament are ignored by most christians. But when you get a mixture of medieval people with money � anything can, and does, happen!
Try these little gems for size:
a) When I burn a bull on the altar as a sacrifice, I know it creates a pleasing odour for the Lord (Lev.1:9). The problem is my neighbors. They claim the odour is not pleasing to them. Should I smite them?
b) I would like to sell my daughter into slavery, as sanctioned in Exodus 21:7. In this day and age, what do you think would be a fair price for her?
c) I know that I am allowed no contact with a woman while she is in her period of menstrual uncleanliness (Lev.15:19-24). The problem is, how do I tell? I have tried asking, but most women take offence.
d) Lev. 25:44 states that I may indeed possess slaves, both male and female, provided they are purchased from neighboring nations. A friend of mine claims that they can be black but not white. Can anyone clarify this for me? Why can’t I own whites?
e) I have a neighbor who insists on working on the Sabbath. Exodus 35:2 clearly states he should be put to death. Am I morally obligated to kill him myself?
f) A friend of mine feels that even the though of eating shellfish is an Abomination (Lev. 11:10), it is a lesser abomination than homosexuality. I don’t agree. I’m convinced it is an abomination that is quite serious and must be stopped throughout Canada. How can we settle this?
g) Lev. 21:20 states that I may not approach the altar of God if I have a defect in my sight. I have to admit that I wear reading glasses. Does my vision have to be 20/20, or is there some wiggle room here?
h) Most of my male friends get their hair trimmed, including the hair around their temples, even though this is expressly forbidden by Lev. 19:27. How should they die?
i) I know from Lev. 11:6-8 that touching the skin of a dead pig makes me unclean, but may I still partake of pork if I use a knife and fork? May I do the same thing when holding a football, or will playing football and touching the pigskin ball make me perpetually unclean in a way that cannot be undone?
j) My neighbor has a very nice garden. He violates Lev. 19:19 by planting two different crops in the same field, as does his wife by wearing garments made of two different kinds of threads(cotton/polyester blend). He also tends to curse and blaspheme a lot. Is it really necessary that we go to the trouble of getting the whole street together to stone them? (Lev. 24:10-16) Couldn’t we just burn them to death at a private affair like we do with people who sleep with their in-laws? (Lev. 20:14)
Is it just me, or does Andrew McCarthy seem a bit beligerant?
NO.
St. P
a) Invite them over for a BBQ
b) Depends on her boobies
c) Not gonna touch this one…
d) Whites will sue you
e) I think so
f) Eat a homosexual shellfish
g) Approved by Lenscrafters
h) Pull out their nosehairs one by one
i) Chopsticks are OK. Spraying the football with Pam negates the pig grunge
j) C’mon, everybody likes a good stoning!
YES!
Er, was responding to me no dhimmi…
Reformation. Don’t you have to embrace the Greeks and The Age of Enlightenment first?
Martin Luther didn’t come forward in a vaccum.
The chances of a Muslim reformation is zero.
Luther wasn’t dealing with jihad, polygamy, dhimmitude, the 72 virgin fantasy, female circumcision, cartoon rage, theocracy and the rest of Islamic dogmnatic lunacy.
Ain’t going to happen.
I know in a supposed time of crisis,we are supposed to have an open mind. We are to engage in debate.We must be seen as being tolerant..
Well,i for one don’t buy it. You cannot reform that which resists change.There will be no reformation from within as long as the mere site of an uncovered female head will get one killed.
The time for reason is long past.To all” moderate” muslims,(and i really use that term loosely,for they are just different coloured smarties from the same box..) just duck and get out of the way..
Hit the baddies and hit them hard.Damage their ability to wage war in any meaningful fashion.Make them fear you as the ender of their days.Play dirty,and remember to twist the bayonet in the ribs after you thrust.
You want to play at war? we excel at that game.Give it,and give it HARD,and just possibly they will run out of virgins ala the cartoon..
Islam teaches that those who do not convert to Islam will be converted via force. Mohammad converted via war and murder. Behind is armies were either new Muslims or corpses without heads. This is historic fact. In order to use the New Testiment Bible to justify murder and war, one has to stretch the bible completely out of context; on the other hand, in order to use the Koran to justify peaceful coexistance with other religions, one has to stretch the Koran completely out of context. So no, Islam cannot be reformed. Peaceful Muslims are heretics. Peaceful Muslims were always subjugated Muslims. Peaceful Muslims were always secular Muslims who practices a form of diluted Islam that was more akin to the occasional church goer, than to anyone who is a serious believer. Peaceful Muslims have always existed under strong dictatorship, where their faith was controlled. Peaceful Muslims exist where their Mosques and Mullahs and Imams feared the secular state. When in control, Islam always becomes crude, violent, and unbelievabley intolerant. {ie: Saudi police forcing girls to burn to death in a girl’s school, because they couldn’t exit with their Jihabs which had already been consumed in the flames.} March 2006 finds Islamic law and code on the rise in more and more nations. Those who cherish freedom, liberty, and a secular tolerant society had better wake up. Ironically, tolerance means being “intolerant” of some things.
St. Peter,
Thanks for the post. I very much enjoyed the humour. Its quite seldom that I see any jocularity here amounst the dour conservatives! Makes me believe maybe you aren’t all gun totin’ maniacs!
“Can Islam reform itself?”
Good question they seem to be nearly 600 years behind Christian church reformation and the subsequent social reformers that followed employing reformed religious values into a political philosophy which distilled Christian fairness, social justice and the dignity of the common individual into law and governance….contrary to the bloated rhetoric of nihilist-leftist dogma and muslim fanaticism, western culture’s laws and governmental democratic models are the result of the western philosophers and jurists who integrated the reformed Judeo-Christian ethic into law and governing institutions.
Not that I’m any student of Islam or even aware of it’s church’s development, but outside of the Aga Khan, I’m unaware of Islam producing any religious reformers like Matin Luther, or Calvin or Knox who rejected the theocratic rule and civil intolerance of the church of Rome…..and where are the faithful social institutional evolutionists like Coke, Blackstone and Locke in the Muslim culture?
I’m afraid that we have a global faith run by 10th century religious cultists steeped in social and theological despotism, which is now aggresively at odds with the dominant global culture that embraces a secular civil ethic based in reformed religious ethics. Tolerance tolerating intolerance. It is nothing less than a clash of cultures which is unreconcilable by any other solution than Islam engaging in 500 years of religious, philosphical and cultural evolution in a very short period of time ( about as long as the western culture’s tolerance goes)
Moderate Islam has to step up to the plate and take leadership from the antiquated fanatics….Western culture should encourage and support the moderates….if this does not produce moderation of Islm’a more base instincts we will find ourselves in a protracted global conflict of cultures which will remove a lot of the civil freedoms both cultures enjoy in peace time.
The problem in the Muslim world is that the extremists are taking over the hearts and minds of more and more of the citizens. They have designed their own “final solution” to the problems of their countries.
The question for the western world is this: how do we defend ourselves against this obvious agression without letting the extremists in our own culture take over the agenda?
If some people posting here beleive that there is no way the Muslim religion can reform itself what then is their answer? Is it to convert or kill all Muslims? Is that not as extreme a position as the terrorists? Have the terrorists not won the war already if we become just like them?
Mansoor was overly gracious and open in his debating because he was scoring zero points and on the defense, it made Andy look somewhat aggressive because he was scoring with slam dunks with his crotch in the face of the flatfooted but very sportsman-like Mansoor.
Mansoor was argueing against the direct words of his own GOD and Andy.
Mansoor got his ass kicked, but maintained his gentlemanly tact , he deserves sympathy Andy deserves the belt and a high five.
I think McCarthy won the debate, but I think Mansoor had an important point to make, which maybe didn’t come through clearly. What I got from his arguments was this:
“Can Islam reform itself? Not if we insist that it can’t.”
If we insist that Islam cannot reform itself, then our conflict is essentially with Islam itself. If we want to give the moderates a chance, then the best chance we can give them is to support and encourage any efforts toward reform, rather than condemning those efforts as weak or hopeless.
Agree with above post – This is the wrong question
The better question is:
Does our government have the intenstinal fortutude/will to revise/change our laws/enforcement of our laws so that we don’t have to be concerned about what Islam does/doesn’t do in Canada. The best defence is offence – but we arn’t used to playing this type of game. Ontario is learning with the passing of Bill 27.
The SCC ruling on the kirpin is just another nail in the whatever!!!!
Why would the Islamists reform, they seem to be winning?
One of the Islamists will drop a dirty bomb or a suitcase full of nuclear shit into the Great Lakes.
When that happens the left will accelerate their debateing.
Some other people who actually drink from the Great Lakes will want to respond with a nuclear strike to make sure our “Islamic reform debating points” get through, without another tolerant westerner being sniped from a mosque.
Chrianity passed through periods in its history that were cruel and inhumane. Change took centuries. Tolerance to coexist with other religions took centuries to evolve, and much pain to write into law and enshrine into constitutions. Secularism is a Western tradition that cost blood, intellectual energy that was tremendous, and it all took time.
Like several posters have said above, Islam has not had this historic chance. The matter is not one of fault, but of simple fact. Can Islam adapt and change? One would hope so, but let’s keep in mind that Christians who modified Christianity always wore the mantel of heretics first, and paid the price of heretics.
Expecting 1.5 Billion people to move a 1400 year old dogma into the modern era is a nice, quaint, caring, wishful thought. Some have even asked, “If some people posting here beleive that there is no way the Muslim religion can reform itself what then is their answer?” I ask, how do you move a 1400 year old dogma, that is funded by billions of oil dollars and manned by millions of fanatics, into the modern era?
Like many pompus over paid professorial pundits, Andrew and Monsoor take inordiante time [ as lawyers do ], and space to make points yet miss the crux of the argument.
Influence. Muslims, reserved and secretive by nature will be swayed by influence.
The silent majority will tend to group behind the winning trend.
If we get weak kneed in Afghanistan and Iraq and pull out, they will see the trend and follow in step with the Jihadists.
If Afghanistan and Iraq begin to stabelize, they will embrace moderartion and lean towards democracy and peace.
Let’s do the latter. 220 million in Indonnesia not to mention millions of Muslims in Afica and Aisia are watching. TG
Well said TG: Speak Peace… carry a big stick!
This debate was a wonderful example of how dialogue should work: open, rigorous, and civilized.
Can Islam be reformed?
Maybe. It is much less conductive to reform than christianity.
The christian reformation/enlightenment tooks centuries and was a very bloody thing.
But on the other hand, Islam now has an example to follow, if they choose to do so.
The best we can do is to defend ourselves from the radicals, encourage and support the moderates wherever possible, lead by example, and explain the virtues of our own system as best we can.
I believe, in the end, that people will choose freedom and elightenment.
…but until they do, we’ll have to keep our guns loaded.
“Can Islam Reform Itself?”
The answer is clear. In the English language, yes.
In Arab language and culture, the answer is a resounding ‘No!’
Islam: The Religion of the Sword. +
thursday, march 02, 2006
116 Beheadings in the Name of Islam
An Al Qaeda terrorist captured in Iraq has confessed to carrying out 116 beheadings: Suspected Kidnapper Arrested in Baghdad. (Hat tip: Rusty Shackleford.)
BAGHDAD, Iraq – Iraqi security forces have arrested a suspect in the 2004 kidnapping and beheading of a Japanese backpacker, officials said Thursday.
The Interior Ministry identified the suspect as Hussein Fahmi, a 28-year-old al-Qaida in Iraq operative arrested over two months ago in western Baghdad. Fahmi confessed to carrying out 116 beheadings, including that of 24-year-old Japanese backpacker Shosei Koda, ministry official Maj. Raid al-Mafraji said.
Fahmi, who is of Egyptian and Palestinian descent, was captured by the Interior Ministry�s counterinsurgency Wolf Brigade after a tip from local residents, al-Mafraji said. �We managed to arrest three other terrorists with him and seized a huge amount of weapons,� he said.
Japan�s chief Cabinet secretary, Shinzo Abe, said Tokyo had not yet received confirmation from Iraqi authorities of the arrest.
Koda was killed by militants in October 2004 after Japan refused to bow to their demands and pull its troops out of Iraq. His decapitated body was found wrapped in an American flag in a Baghdad street.
Al-Qaida in Iraq, led by the country�s most wanted terrorist Abu Musab al-Zarqawi, claimed responsibility for the kidnapping and beheading in a Web posting that included a gruesome video of the killing. +
via LGF
Islam is the focal point of a far more dangerous force, that of anti-modernism. This includes the radical environmental movements, anti-Western Mugabe types, and others. They are convinced that our society is “too” modern, that is the reason for poverty, and rather than modernize Africa etc, we must destroy the rich economies. Kyoto is part of this (unwittingly), so is the UN. If we let radical Islamism to flourish, it is only a matter of time before these groups cooperate and cause worldwide havoc. BTW, I have started reading Michael Crichton’s “State of Fear” and get the impression that is where his argument is heading too. One line of the book is very instructive. Drake argues it is OK to lie about increasing glaciers around Iceland, because the radical environmentalists have “truth” on their side, so it’s OK to lie, because big business baddies are lying too. Sound familiar?
“Kyoto is part of this (unwittingly)”
Not so. Kyoto is the bastard-child of Maurice Strong, mentor of ex-PM PM, Jr., and his co-conspirators. Check these sites/sources: +
Maurice Strong
Kyoto Protocol compiled by un-elected global bureaucrats … Maurice Strong: A Dr. Evil-style strategist. Owner of a 200000-acre New Age Zen colony. …
http://www.taxtyranny.ca/images/HTML/Maurice-Strong/article1.html – 11k – Cached – Similar pages
The Kyoto Connection to Earth Worship
The architect of the Kyoto Protocol.” It is an eye-opener, especially the strong ties to the powers in Canadian politics. For example: Maurice Strong gave …
http://www.fathersforlife.org/culture/kyoto_connection.htm – 30k – Cached – Similar pages
ESR | December 24, 2001 | Maurice Strong: Godfather of the …
While unknown to the general public, the name “Maurice Strong” elicits … Strong advocates ratification of the Kyoto treaty to stop the impending crisis. …
http://www.enterstageright.com/archive/articles/1201/1201strong.htm – 32k – Cached – Similar pages
Maurice Strong coal power and Kyoto
Kyoto, environmental movement, Maurice Strong, apartment hunting in Beijing, environmental consultant, China’s burgeoning pollution, deforestation, …
http://www.canadafreepress.com/2003/main012703.htm – 27k – Cached – Similar pages
Entity behind Kyoto conned public
Entity behind Kyoto conned public, maurice Strong, Earth Council, Villas del Caribe, Costa Rica, oil for food, carbon credits, kyoto, Power, Kyoto Kickback …
http://www.canadafreepress.com/2005/cover042105.htm – 32k – +
Makes me believe maybe you aren’t all gun totin’ maniacs!
So what if we are? What would a chickensh*t leftist do about it?
http://coldfury.com/index.php?p=5071
Abu Musab Al Zarqawi we know to be a dangerous Al-Qaida terrorist leader.
Sayyid Muqtada Al-Sadr is another, but supposedly a dangerous agent and terrorist leader supported by Iran.
Are these wealthy guys dressed all in black driving around with weapons in expensive cars from Syria or Iran or both?
There is supposed to be a warrant out for his arrest via official Al – Iraqiya TV.
This according to:
http://healingiraq.blogspot.com/
I forget the Iraq blogsite now, but they made reference to Al-Sadr as a nasty who would make Saddam look like an alter boy.
It’s odd how things progress. At one time the USA joined with Saddam against Iran and Khomanie.
Now, after the Sunni are subdued somewhat, we find that Iran is supporting the Shiite majority and if things get too far out of balance that way, we will have more of a problem to deal with.
Are you getting a similar picture here? TG
How can a “religion” with capital punishment for apotasy be reformed? This is a chicken-egg problem of existential proportions.
Maz2 strong is one of the most evil leftie bastards this country ever produced.
Western Canadian: Maurice Strong, indeed: EVIL is the word. Keeping his head below the parapet lately tho I notice.