According to the Globe & Mail, the noble savagelets defending themselves from an unconscious man did so while police stood by and did nothing;
Joe Gualtieri said that his brother survived only because the gang of youths who were hitting his unconscious brother’s head with a piece of wood – possibly an oak rail from the house – ran away when one of Sam’s sons shouted: “He’s dead, he’s dead.”
Mr. Gualtieri was attacked after a Thursday protest stopped construction at the Stirling South building development in Caledonia, southwest of Hamilton. The 90-unit subdivision, on eight hectares, is about one kilometre from the disputed Douglas Creek development, which has been occupied by protesters from the nearby Six Nations reserve since February, 2006.
In an interview shortly after Sam Gualtieri underwent an MRI in a Hamilton hospital yesterday, his brother said Mr. Gualtieri was attacked when he went back to see what was happening at the house.
Joe Gualtieri said Ontario Provincial Police officers on the site “stood there, and they did not intervene” until after the beating, when the attackers had fled.
[…]
The confederacy has adopted a policy of seeking development agreements with those building on the Haldimand Tract, a strip of land 9½ kilometres either side of the Grand River, and its lawyer Aaron Detlor has been in Caledonia negotiating with Mr. Kragten.
Haldimand Mayor Marie Traynor described the proposed development fee as “like the old-time Mafia, isn’t it? That’s what people have been telling me. That’s how they see it, and I have to agree. If you give me some money, I’ll leave you alone.”
Too little; too late.
Canadian citizens are now classed as “non-aboriginals”; strangers in our own land; persona non grata; abandoned by our leaders.
What is to be done?
…-
David Crombie to be federal liaison on Caledonia impasse (canoe news)
Throbbin: “First things first – no condoning the violence, if things went down Joe said they did. However, Joe said alot in the article, and I didn’t see much proof.”
In other words, if Sam “asked for it” in his own house, where his attackers had no right to be, it’s A O.K. with you.
Even if you don’t give a s**t about the law, you could have a little human decency and compassion. Pardon me while I wipe the puke off of my keyboard.
What does the “Warrior” gang have to do with Caledonia? Well, they’re there, flying their colours for the media and, according to some observers, pretty well running the show.
Once again, if someone decides to stand up for his rights, he is labeled a racist. Bad news, for ya pal, but I would react to any trespasser on my property. I have evicted many white squatters(the joy of being a landlord in the prison capital of Canada)with extreme prejudice, as the police do not involve themselves in landlord/tenant actions. If you threaten my livelihood, I threaten your well being. Sounds fair to me.
The fact that there are people who would make excuse for trespassing, breaking and entering, aggravated assault, and who knows what else, on the basis of race, is rather disgusting. The motto of the RCMP is “Maintain the right.” What’s the motto of the OPP, “We stand by and watch while thugs break laws.” ? McLiar is such a coward. It is a shame. Why are laws not being enforced? Obviously, for McLiar’s political reasons. The more important question is, why are people preparing to vote this bozo back in?
Throbbin, you have to keep up with events.
The land claims have been settled.
The Federal Government said the natives have no claim to that property. Period.
Lets assume for the sake of arguement that the person who got beat up has the deed to the property where the CRIME ocurred.
Lets see now:
He has a deed.
Natives have?????
Now if the Provincial Government are willing to pay the extortion, i guess its up to them. Im sure the citizens who pay the taxes will be interested to see their hard earned dollars at work.
So Throbbin, your preference is for the Canadian air force to go and blast the Caledonia occupiers back into the pre-stone age. That seems a bit violent to me.
My tangential musings are advocating biological warfare? Why don’t you start advocating a total ban on cruise ships as this is the primary means by which Norwalk virus seems to be spread now? Norwalk virus is of probably no interest to terrorists since it doesn’t kill people. As far as any legal consequences, the worst I can imagine happening to someone who did decide to perform the little stunt I mused about would be administration of a noxious substance. Of course, with your form of thinking the Lone Gunman episode where secretive US government agencies reprogram a planes flight computer to crash into the WTC was the signal for the 11/9/2001 events.
For those who are wondering why I tacked on the admittedly rather tangential Norwalk paragraph, it all has to do with multitasking errors as I was simultaneously trying to read a paper on neuropsychoimmunology and this thread. Somehow this triggered a memory of the profound neuropsychiatric effects of the Norwalk virus triggered interleukin/cytokine storm I had experienced a couple of years ago and elicited a strong desire to share this unique experience with others. Now, since my pager has just gone off, it’s time to get back to work.
A side comment on this latest incident from Caledonia. Some may remember the (proto-separatist engendered) violence in Quebec in the mid- and late 1960s. I’m sure everyone knows of the incident that finally got the Canadian government sending in the troops with full War Measures authorization.
Watch for who’s doing the mother-henning with respect to Caledonia. If they’re Tories, then what appears to be native-coddling on their part isn’t. It’s “keep your noses as clean as you can. When the hammer strikes, they’re taking away all the troublemakers. Just let those people guiltmonger their way to domestic insurrection and confine yourself to avoiding them if you can.”
I can’t say that this position harmonizes with individual justice, but it isn’t as pro-native as it seems.
So Throbbin, four with sticks against one without is self defense in your universe? You’re an imbecile.
These are career criminals you’re pleading for. I suppose you’re used to that, being a Lefty and all.
Too many big words Loki. He won’t get it.
On the bright side, I’m VERY happy that Mr. Gualtieri is talking today. If he does remember the beating that’s even better.
It means he most likely doesn’t have a major brain injury. I was afraid he might have had one, given the prolonged unconsciousness reported.
Daniel M. Ryan – whoops, my apologies.
Zog – Did I say anything was A o.k.? Or are you trying to put words in my mouth?
The warriors are looked down upon by many, many First Nations communities. I have no doubt they are present in Caledonia now, but when this whole thing started they were nowhere to be seen, and only moved in when the cameras did. The local indians are are standing up for what they feel is justice – the warriors are there because that is what they do. They are not “running the show”, regardless of what you or “some observers” believe.
Kingstonlad – I don’t doubt for a second that you have evicted white folks from some property or other. The funny thing is, the indians in Caledonia are doing exactly what you would do in the same situation. That’s the irony, and you would see that if you thought about it a little bit.
Lee – I pay alot of attention to land claims discussions, thank you very much. I understand the Federal position quite well, even if it is flawed IMHO. The thing is, the Caledonians feel that the sale of land back in the day was not legitimate, that it was signed off by an illegitimate “chief” – someone who never had the power or the right to sell that land in the first place.
Sam has a deed, and the natives have…the Royal Proclamation, the Constitution, judicial convention, and as soon as the Conservatives are booted from power the United Nations Declaration on the Rights of Indigenous Peoples. Oh, and don’t try the “but a court has already ordered the protesters to be removed from that land” bit, because the judge who made that ruling didn’t have the power to do so, and that order was rescinded.
loki – I don’t have a clue where you got “So Throbbin, your preference is for the Canadian air force to go and blast the Caledonia occupiers back into the pre-stone age. That seems a bit violent to me.” Try Hooked on Phonics.
Geez, I go for dinner and get back and y’all are all uppity on me.
Nice try rube. This has been a Warrior deal from the start. Why do you think the US Border Patrol has been in on it? The local Six Nations have damn all to do with it and would like it to stop. I talk to people, this is what they tell me.
Personally I don’t like liars, Throbbin. People who lie in aid of organized crime I like even less. Go away.
The Phantom – I’m not sure, but if you are the same Phantom I have been reading about in the blogosphere lately, here’s a heads up between me and you; some people think you are kind of kooky. If you’re not the same Phantom of ill repute, my apologies.
“So Throbbin, four with sticks against one without is self defense in your universe? You’re an imbecile.”
[sarcams on] Yes, Phantom, I am an imbecile and that’s exactly how things work in my universe. [sarcasm off]
I think you missed the point of everything I have been saying. You and loki should get together sometime – I imagine you would be good friends.
The Phantom – most people are smart enough to know a lie when they see it. Check this out.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Caledonia_land_dispute
A warrior job from the start eh? You remind me of the neocons in the U.S. – they keep repeating the same lies over and over and over, in hopes of convincing themselves and others that it is true.
Wikipedia? Wow, you really told me!
Idiot.
Throbbin– The UN resolution states that natives are to be given thier traditional lands,resources etc. back. No gov’t in Canada will sign that. And if the NDP ever made a gov’t and did sign it ,are you prepared to move to the states?
No more talk.
SUE SUE SUE.
wallyj – the UNDRIP does not state that natives are to be given their traditional lands and resources back. All it does is recognize and protect the rights of Indigenous peoples, including the right to self-government, to FPIC (Free, Prior, and Informed Consent) in all matters dealing with the ceding of nationally enshrined rights and freedoms, and territorial ownership. Anyone who thinks it will be used to try and take Canada away from non-aboriginal Canadians is on kool-aid.
Also, successive Liberal governments have supported the UNDRIP, and until the Conservatives came into power, Canada was one of the UNDRIP’s strongest advocates within the UN.
Read up on it.
Isn’t it great to know pissants like throbbin can be safely ignored?
Of course in spite of The UN or whatever other B.S. is spewed around, what it all boils down to is that the Natives just want more money.
The 15 Billion that is spent at present is not enough to keep the chiefs and their cronies in the manner to which they have becone accustomed.
The native leadership cares not a whit about their people or the living conditions on the reserves.
None of the land claims which have been settled or in progress will matter at all until the money is going to the individuals and not the leaders.
Phantom,
You’re shouting into a dry well. Read Throbbin’s last few posts carefully and you’ll realize that he’s not merely an addled sympathizer but probably an accessory to criminal activity – a really nasty and disgusting piece of work who you wouldn’t want to turn your back on.
I’m an old man, and I find it ironic that I was actively campaigning for native equality almost 60 years ago. No regrets – there were gross injustices that had to be addressed but, the takeover of the Six Nations by organized crime
has got to be addressed too. Pity that there is no longer any rule of law in Ontario or that problem would have been resolved long ago.
As far as I know, it is against the law for a police officer to stand by and watch a crime being committed without intervening. The police officers involved are accessories to attempted murder.
I know, firsthand, on a number of occasions, that natives get away with assault and robberies. The RCMP have gotten to the point where they don’t even bother with them at all. They’ll ask them if they ‘did it,’ and when they reply “no”, the case is closed. I know it is frustrating for the police when they arrest these people for crimes committed, and the courts just throw them back out onto the streets. It isn’t any wonder the police don’t bother with them….it is a bloody waste of their time. Mind you, to stand about and do nothing while a crime is being committed in front of you is way over the top of being useless.
Throbbin
I do business out on that six nations reserve frequently and have witnessed many things. Illicit drugs of all kind are sold everywhere, and it’s no secret to anyone out there. Do you think this should be dealt with by the police?
CBC is down playing Mr. Gualtieri’s injuries Quote “He was hospitalized with a broken nose and bruises.”
The man was in a coma, he was almost killed and they write it up like a kindergarten recess fight.
The OPP is right now in the process of making significant chenges. Specifly as a result of their own missteps in Caledonia.
They’re changing their uniforms from blue to yellow…
“How do we know those young folks didn’t go to his house to politely remind Sam that they are protesting, and respectfully ask him to leave?
Respectfully ask him to leave HIS house, so they could protest his owning it?
“How do we know they didn’t go over for afternoon tea?”
‘Cause they beat him. Or at least, I don’t beat up people with whom I am having afternoon tea, and I will not subject the natives who did this to the soft racism of low expectations and assume that this is normal behaviour for them.
Are the natives of Caledonia trying to start a race war? This type of behavior only widens a the gap between the natives and the rest of Canada.
The latest news to flood the feel good wells spring of Ontraio politically correct insantiy is that the Six nations Chief has “apologised” to the builder…so every thing is out right now. A canonised minority has admitted fallibility.
The savagelets are still hiding in the Six nations community, the six nations refuse to surrender them to authorities for trial and a clan mother was quoted as saying “aw just kids. ya know how it is” in dismissing the violence of their fanatically radicalized youth.
The more I see this crap go on without police action, the more I’m convinced that there has to be a military solution to Six Nations reserve organized crime and tribal criminality….. a martial law presence should be imposed on the reserves because the province and the band council have allowed it to go lawless and refuse to enforce the rule of law in this territory putting both Canadians and Natives at risk of injury from renegades.
It’s time the law and civil peace were re established on these reserves and to do so our leaders have to give law enforcement a clear shoot to kill policy if they are fired upon or attacked by criminal elements on reserves.
No Bob H., the natives of Caledonia sadly are not trying to start anything. Visiting thugs from New York are.
Important distinction to keep remembering.
Zog, you’re right of course. Trolls are trolls.
Throbbin, invocation of UNDRIP, could have the effect of paralyzing government, as virtually any issue could be interpreted as requiring native input (consent?). Remember, 102% of BC is subject to native land claims. This is very significant, and the fact the the Canadian Charter of Rights doesn’t protect natives right now is unacceptable. Using the UN to reinforce that is therefore also unacceptable.
Good afternoon all,
Lee – I fail to see how the UNDRIP has anything to do with the natives wanting more money. Did Canadians want the Charter of Rights and Freedoms so they could ask for more money?
I agree with you to some degree about (some) Chiefs and their seeming apathy towards the conditions in their communities. I fight my own battles within my people and our governance to the same effect. However, that fight is our fight, not yours. And using that kind of rationale or reasoning to say that the UNDRIP is bad is like me saying to you that the Charter of Rights and Freedoms is bad because of ADSCAM.
I realize that the Charter may not be the best example to use to illustrate my point on this forum, but you see what I’m getting at.
Zog – yeah Zog, thats exactly what I am, because you know me so well and can make that judgement. And yeah, people REALLY believe you when you say that 6 nations has been “taken over” by organized crime.
Joanne – don’t make blanket statements like “natives get away with assaults and robberies” – they don’t serve natives or you very well. Would agree to the statement “all police officers are corrupt” because a few cops have been found to be corrupt? Where I come from, “natives” don’t get away with those things, because it’s usually “native” cops arresting them.
Seen a bit – I see elicit drugs sold in ever aboriginal community I have been to (just like I have seen a drug trade in every non-aboriginal community I have been to as well). Aside from my stance on the decriminalization of weed, yes, I would strongly agree and encourage a major crackdown on drugs in aboriginal communities.
Tungsten – in perfect accordance to their understanding of what “self-government” means, and their firm belief that the tract of land is dispute belongs to them, the indians down there have asked that any development along the Haldimand (sp?) tract be pre-approved by their development corporation – much like any other development would require approval from some level of governnance anywhere else in Canada.
Non-compliance with the law of the land has consequences. I’m still not condoning the actions of the kids in this matter, like you wish I would, but Sam and Joe were well aware of what was expected of them if they had any plans to continue developing the region. See kingstonlad’s previous statements on the matter, and think about that for a minute.
Bob H – be careful about using language like “race war”. It makes you sound radical and crazy. I have yet to hear any indian – in Caledonia or elsewhere – use that term.
WL Mackenzie Redux – wow, tough talk. I’m pretty sure Kate is getting a little nervous about your musings on violent confrontation like she did with other commenters in the other thread on this issue.
While you’re busy imposing Marshal law, you and Kate can re-open residential schooling, and maybe even make sure those crazy savages are given a good dose of Christianity too.
The Phantom – aw, nevermind. I guess you have proven all those other bloggers right. I see why.
Shamrock – sorry I missed you there.
The UNDRIP will not have any paralyzing effect on the Canadian government, with the possible exception of INAC, which most Canadians – aboriginal and non-aboriginal alike – despise anyways.
IMHO – the only things FPIC would be necessary for is activities that affect aboriginals on or around their land (as defined by treaties, land claims, or future claims to land). This would also apply to their traditional knowledge, and it’s uses outside of their culture. (Another reason for the speedy resolution of land claims agreements, from both perspectives).
The Charter does protect native individual rights, just like any other Canadian. The UNDRIP is a declaration on collective rights.
I wouldn’t count on what the CPoC is telling Canadians – they’re full of shit – so you should read the actual declaration yourself.
Here we go again. How often are we going to have this pointing to giraffes outside the window? Land claims, Charter of Rights, UNDRIP, irrelevant in this issue. Distractions from the core issue. What about the law?
We have a regime in Ontario that has allowed blatent crimes against private property, and blant violent crimes against persons to take place, and performed its duty to protect person and property by the lawful use of its police forces. Period.
There is no rationalizing this.
Throbbin, this is not about aboriginals. It is about crime.
If the Ontario government will not perform its duty, and allows this lawlessness to continue, then I agree with WLM, bring in the Armed forces, with live ammunition, and put this down, once and for all. Again, use the force necessary to do so, no more and no less.
This has to stop. Now.
“…in perfect accordance to their understanding of what “self-government” means…”
I don’t believe you are suggesting that the natives’ concept of self governance includes giving thugs permission to beat up lawful owners – you must mean that the natives accept that they have longstanding legal rights to be met and are content to resolve their issues in a calm and civilized manner that would not involve say, occupation of disputed lands, blockades on or ripping up public roads with backhoes, or burning cars or beating news cameramen or any individual in dispute with their attempt to peacefully reclaim what is theirs.
You will no doubt be able to point out this representative organization of self-governance, and show that it has a historically derived authority and current acceptance among Six Nations natives at least equivalent to a minority government. As I am unsure of its place in our provincial or federal ‘constitutional’ structures of government, I welcome having that defined as well.
And lastly, the natives are willing to accept any Supreme Court decision on the matter, including one that rules against their interests, right?
The troll vomits:”WL Mackenzie Redux – wow, tough talk. I’m pretty sure Kate is getting a little nervous about your musings on violent confrontation like she did with other commenters in the other thread on this issue.”
I know it’s pointless trying to educate you puss heads but here goes;
1) I do not advocate violence except in defense of the rule of law and in self defense against criminal attack….both are legally and morally justified.
2) Six nations terrorists have openly stated they will shoot cops who are are rightfully enforcing the law on occupied land…they have stated they will shoot unarmed citizens who stray on occupied land…that constitutes “tough talk” too…as a matter of fact it advocates sedition, conspiracy, death threats, obstruction, and treason.
3) Restoring peace, civil justice and rule of law to reserves inundated with violent terrorists and gangsters is not only morally justified but a legal and constitutional imperative of government.
4) In contrast to spewing trolls, I do not advocate for the violent armed overthrow of elected legitimate governments like the trolls who Kate booted….and if you can’t see the difference ( which I’m sure you don’t) you are not civilly or intellectually conscious enough to be taken seriously.
Oh, and Throbbin:
There is NO negotiating with:
1) Illegitinate representives
2) Gangsters or Terrorists who use threats and intimidation as a bargaining tool
3) any faction who does not recognize the sovereignty of Canada or its Government
Personally I beleve it is apparent to anyone who has followed the internal polotics and forces at play in the Six Nations confederacy factional battles, that Six Nations is leaderless, undemocratic and run by 3 criminal factions which are at constant war with each other to get all the beans from their coercive shakedown schemes.
In short, there is no way to determing who has consentual nargaining power as legitimate representatives of all six nations people. Secondly, the omnipresent threat of extortive violence, AND the fanatical and belligerent revisionist perspective which pervades the direction of claims, nust be eliminated before any negotiating in good faith and mutual respect takes place.
So we are not even close to getting near the legitimate “negotiating stage” as long as the threat of intimidating coercion (native terrorism) and disrespect for Canadian authority ( not recognizing Canadian sovereignty) are in the negotiating room.
Negotiations are 2 way, so far only the Canadian state has come to the table in good faith.
Well kids, I’m just back from a visit to Cayuga Dragway (aka Toronto Motorsports park), drove through Caledonia twice.
All I noticed were a couple of “Call Out the ARMY!” signs, and a flag on almost every street light and telephone pole in town. Lots of them were the Red Ensign.
Oh, and lots of PC signs but no Liberal or NDP ones. Goes with the Red Ensign, eh?
Throbbin
“…the Caledonians feel that the sale of land back in the day was not legitimate, that it was signed off by an illegitimate “chief” – someone who never had the power or the right to sell that land in the first place…”
No, the feds have concluded that the “Plank Road” claim lacks any merit because of an agreement to sell signed by 47 chiefs, every single member of the only legitimate SN government on the Grand at the time.
But the feds have yet to produce any evidence of that.
g
Citing Kahentinetha Horn as an authority?!? Holy Moses, that’s really scraping the bottom of the barrel. I read through her amateurish prop’ piece (about the same intelectual level as some of the stuff that used to come out of Maoist China) and can only conclude that either a: She has finally “lost it” completely or, b: She thinks that her native readers are babbling idiots.
“…how do we know Sam didn’t initiate the violence? How do we know those young folks didn’t go to his house to politely remind Sam that they are protesting, and respectfully ask him to leave? How do we know they didn’t go over for afternoon tea?
Throbbin = troll; DO NOT FEED. Anybody who posts comments such as this without /sarc tags teeters on the edge of imbecility, and isn’t worth your keyboarding time. This individual is impervious to reason.
Mike at September 15, 2007 9:36 PM Mike, suing is of no use; they’ll merely fight us with our own tax dollars and surrender same if they lose.
If this incident went down as described, it is yet another dark day in the history of the OPP, and Julian Fantino should hang his head in shame before resigning. But not first before admitting he is carrying out the McGuinty Liberal government’s demands: that, too, needs public air time, and as much as possible before October 10th.
mhb23re
at gmail d0t calm
“But the feds have yet to produce any evidence of that.” An 18 page breif was tabled at the “negotiations” 7 months ago where the feds stated with references why the Mowhawk claims on surrended land are historically incorrect and not legally defensable in a claims court.
The thing that most people do not realize about the historic context and leagal process in which Haldimand gifted this tract of land to US based Mohawk loyalists is that he never gane them a deed for the land…that was held by the crown…the mowhawks were allowed to settle/farm “rent free/tax free” on this tract….but they chose to sell the land they did not use. All the tract blocks were sold through crown mortgage…all mortgages were lawfully discharged…where is the room for claim?
In a perfect world, it would be only leftards like Throbin who get their homes occupied, their heads bashed in and threatened with violence if they don’t pay up.
In this world, people who DON’T deserve it are victims of leftard policy.
If it was just leftards, I’d be encouraging the “natives.”