Telegraph- Heat pumps could bring the German economy to its knees
Governments keep making the same mistake, of backing ‘winners’ long before they’ve proven themselves in the market
Telegraph- Heat pumps could bring the German economy to its knees
Governments keep making the same mistake, of backing ‘winners’ long before they’ve proven themselves in the market
Big governmental subsidies, then the crash. Like Solyndra, etc. Almost sound like scams. Even the government isn’t stupid enough to fall for the same scams over and over, unless of course some connected people profit from it in exchange for campaign donations. It also helps to have rent-a-mobs immune for arrest that happen to push the government green agenda. Or ministers that used to work for them.
“Even the government isn’t stupid enough to fall for the same scams over and over”. Pardon?
Sigh, when it comes to losses, it’s a twofer. All the resources that were squandered on rubbish could have gone into expanding and hardening infrastructure.
It’s just so absurd. The American consumer is addicted to innovation. They would jump at the chance to acquire technology that was more efficient and voluntarily reduce their pollution or carbon footprint but it has to work, the benefits have to outweigh the costs.
“…but it has to work, the benefits have to outweigh the costs.”
___________________________________________
Wise words right there. I cannot think of one thing (where government was deeply involved) that actually worked and the benefits outweighed the costs. There need to be repercussions to government on poor decision making (just as there are in the private sector). One might rebuff this comment by saying “well, then, if you put repercussions on poor decision making in government, they won’t pursue innovation and improvement.”
HOORAY!!!! HUZZAHHHHH!!! That’s the job of the private sector provided the government doesn’t hinder them with regulations, restrictions and guideline rules.
Government has no business meddling in business. Period.
Good thing Canada would never do anything foolish like this.
What’s particularly annoying to an old fart like me is that I am old-enough to remember when solar panels and heat-pumps were all the rage in the late 1970’s-early 1980’s. Pushed for the same reason as today … to wean us off our “addiction to fossil fuels”. But a funny thing happened along the way. The Free Marketplace rejected that crap as inferior to Nat. Gas. and higher efficiency designs … up to 97% efficient furnaces. And the solar panels simply degraded and got torn off with the next re-roofing job.
But some “green” innovations were EMBRACED by the Free Marketplace: such as tankless, gas-fired, water heaters that are also up to 97% efficient and provide instantaneous hot water. The Free Market also embraced “Engineered Lumber” which is quite literally made from the scrap material swept off the floors of sawmills. OSB plywood, Tji-engineered joists, PSL (parallel strand lumber), and LVL (vertically laminated beams). And closed-cell foam insulation is making inroads into becoming ‘standard’ insulation.
The Free Market chooses winners and losers based on how well the products fit the need. Government mandates are pure Communism. Pure waste.
In Europe, where they have real electricity, instead of the suzy-homemaker 15 amp 120v stuff we use here, you can get electrically fired tankless heaters.
In Germany, many homes have 10 000 watt circuits instead of our piddly 1800.
Vevor sells 1440 watt 8-gallon heaters, takes about 20 minutes to warm up the tank from room temp to 110 F, that work on 120v.
In Canada, where we have real gas instead of Russian gas, my tankless gas water heater kicks the shit out of electric.
I have a “Navien” 95% efficient Nat. Gas. Tankless … and it’s the shit!! The bomb!! It even has an internal circulation pump that operates my recirc. line … and it’s a “smart” device that LEARNS when we need hot water in the morning/evening … and starts up the recirc. pump when we need it.
I don’t want to do any advertising here … but I cannot say enough GOOD about this brand/model …
https://www.navieninc.com/residential/tankless-water-heaters#npe2-condensing-2021
Many places don’t have gas. Many places are stuck with electricity, even for heat. Of course, since you aren’t, well its ok then, let the poor plebes suffer.
Also, thanks to the USA, much of Europe can’t even have Russian gas.
Oh we can’t depend on Russian pipe gas. We need LNG. The Nordstream was sabotaged by a Ukrainian group, though.
If you multiplied 15 * 120 you would get 1800 watts. I have 400 A into my home. That’s about 48 kilowatts. Plus a 4,000 litre propane tank. What do the Europeans have that we don’t have? I have a welding machine in every bedroom.
But do you have any 220v cattle prods wired up next to your bed?
“What do the Europeans have that we don’t have?”
Tankless electric hot water heaters that you can just plug into your bathroom socket, for starters.
Electric kettles that’ll boil water faster than anything here.
The ability to plug in a 5kW heater anywhere in your home.
My 120v electric kettle is … as my son says … a game changer. Can’t even imagine that thing at 220v … so long as my coffee doesn’t burn 🙂
5kW needs 20A at 240V.
The usual wall plugs allow 10A or 16A. A three phase 16A / 400V is a rarer installation.
Sing along – Cascade 40, Cascade 40, water heater, water heater.
The gov’t should just butt out of the market.
That being said, a properly configured and installed heat pump will significantly reduce heating bills, and works as a central air conditioner in the summer.
My total natural gas bill last year for home heating, a gas stove for cooking and hot water was $1200 which of course includes delivery, the carbon tax and HST so the actual cost of the gas that I consumed was substantially less. You won’t find me falling for a sales pitch to spend many thousands of dollars to reduce my consumption. The payback will be decades if at all.
BTW, 2 story, 1600 sq ft and 4 bedrooms, finished basment
Depending on size of home, and usage, it can be as low as 4-5 years.
One guy I know said 4 years, using oil and electricity, the other 5, heating with propane.
But whatever, you can do whatever you like.
The payback is only if they are heavily subsidized, i.e you a your neighbours taxes. Give someone with a high efficiency furnace the same subsidy,and the payback is never. Add that to imbecilic net zero policies which will triple the cost of electricity going forward, and ration it.
BS.
Neither of my buds who use them were subsidized.
Bottom line: You get more heat per watt of electricity from a heat pump than an electric heater.
The pump is good but I use it more for cooling. Not a game changer for bills.
There’s no payback with heat pumps. This guy obviously either sells them or works for someone who does. They suck. I know from first hand experience. Most of the ones people are buying are single room units. The in-laws live in PEI which was the testing ground for this government subsidized garbage and they have 4 in their home, last count. Still need to run an oil furnace. And I know what you are going to say: but muh industrial sized heat pump can heat and cool your entire home!!! Yeah, it’s possible, but guess what… no payback EVER. Heat pumps are for one thing: Politicians who invest in corporations that make heat pumps, then initiating these programs and watching their shares go 10x. It’s the only point.
You can beat a $100 a month system, that already works? Present your numbers.
Energy prices are very uncertain though, and subject to government’s taxes/subsidy.
The problem is most of the companies installing it won’t do all the required testing and calculations, and will just sell you the heat pump that your sq ft requires.
Caveat Emptor.
Those people are paying the “stupid tax.”
People should learn to do the research and math themselves.
The fact that most people can barely chew bubblegum and walk at the same time doesn’t mean the product is useless.
Agree with Kenji but would add another flaw in the planners thinking, the error is “one size fits all.” I can see some life styles and environments in which, say an EV, makes sense, such as a congested urban environment or one where inversions can occur. OTOH, on the great plains, they’d be a liability.
Consider also the appliances and fixtures that consume less water. In some environments they are useful but not all. Consumers should have a choice.
I read an anecdote recently describing the efforts of one lady to have her 1980s dishwasher rebuilt. I was so jealous.
I bought a Maytag washer and dryer secondhand about 40 years ago for 100 bucks and they are still working like champs. The modern stuff is expensive and nowhere near as reliable.
Completely agreed. And if a heat pump works well for yeahwell… then I am happy for him. Me? Give me my 97% efficient, clean, green, Nat. Gas.
I think my dishwasher is from the 70s. It’s all point to point wiring and the dishes always come our clean. The only issue is the know doesn’t always go to the next stage so you have to turn it manually.
Many politicians have little experience with either commerce or technology. Like naive investors, they are easily duped by “the next big thing.”
The garden path.. If a product has true value.. It doesn’t need subsidies and creepy Ad campaigns.. Can I get a witness?.. Apparently not because word of mouth is not working.. Why?, I assume its because its not as good as stand alone air conditioners / heaters…
If the deal is good.. You could set up a tent in a empty field and word of mouth will bring the customers to you.. If its not good you can pretend to help old people?.. Caramel colored single moms? :).. Suck them in with some free caulking / energy assessment.. Doesn’t seem genuine..
” Caramel colored single moms? :).. Suck them in with some free caulking ”
OR Suck them in with some free cocking:-))))
A heat pump is nothing more than a bidirectional air conditioner. It is a big compressor powered by a big electric motor, and it is most efficient when sized for 80% of the annual heating load and running near continuously.
In other words, heat pumps are only economical when electricity is reliable and cheap. Europe, and especially Germany, has done everything in its power, in obedience to the green madness of the climate psychos, to make electricity unreliable and expensive. How do I know this? Because exactly the same thing happened in Ontario under Dalton McGuinty and Kathleen Wynne – heat pumps were a good idea, and then leftist cretins made electricity unaffordable. And the morons are carrying on even now, with electric vehicle mandates increasing the grid load while insistence upon unreliable supply from wind and solar is making the grid ever more shaky.
Physics can’t be fooled. The reckoning is not far off.
Physics can’t be fooled.
You get more heat per watt of electrical energy out of a heat pump, even at -15C, than you do out of an electrical heater.
Physics will not be fooled. Combust fuel in a power plant. Some energy lost in heat escape. Turn heat energy into kinetic energy via turbines. Energy lost in that process. Turbines convert kinetic energy to electrical energy. Energy lost. Transmit electricity from plan to house. Energy lost in transmission and transformation. Convert electricity back to heat, energy lost.
Or
Burn the fuel in your furnace, and use the heat, as heat. Much more efficient.
It all boils down to dollars/btu of heat energy.
Many people using propane will still see a significant saving using a heat pump, if it is installed correctly.
If the dollars per BTU ever favour electricity for heating over home combustion, it is due to distortions in the marketplace caused by government.
3 little words:
Economies of scale.
In Ontario, where I live, you still save money with a heat pump even if you heat with propane, and electricity here is through the roof.
Electrical heaters are always 100% efficient.
Peter, you do not understand how heat pumps work. They run from 5x as efficient as electricity when it’s warmer out to about 2x at -30c for the newer ones.
I’d like to see the promised efficiency. Useless at -15c. Maybe reinvesting to a new device would help, but I can’t trust it.
Besides, hot air is a horrible form of heating.
Something running on electricity runs 5 X as efficient as electricity? You’re right, I don’t understand that, but neither does Einstein, so at least I am in good company.
Which is precisely why no one (in Ontario at least) heats with electricity. Being more efficient than electric heating is no selling feature, which is why gas is the norm in places where gas is available and oil (being preplaced by propane) is the norm where gas isn’t available.
Lots of people use electricity to heat in Ontario.
If the capital cost of the plant cannot be paid back with profit before the end of the service life then it is un-economic. While heat pumps do indeed work (physics) they are not economic. The cost of the equipment does not save enough money over their life time to make it worth it. In some cases it doesn’t save any money at all.
In a very cold climate you need a large and complex (costly) heat pump to be able to heat your house. Plus a backup direct heat system and an air to air heat exchanger. As outside air gets colder at a certain point you are better off just turning off the heat pump and using the electricity to directly heat your house. Burning natural gas uses much cheaper, simpler, and reliable equipment.
So you only save money 80% of the time, in say central Ontario or Quebec.
Its still a saving, and properly done, for most family-sized homes, will pay for itself long long before the equipment itself fails, provided it is properly installed.
Heat pumps, when properly installed, work.
Most large building use them, but they have real engineers to figure them out.
I’ve seen some pretty neat energy (and therefore cost) saving working in HVAC way back in the 2010s.
One neat one was a big, slowly rotating spiral that you would blow the warm exhaust air through, and also pull the incoming fresh air through to recoup some of the heat in winter, and dump some of the heat in the incoming air in summer. I never go the chance to see the temp. gradient in summer, but in winter it would warm up -20 deg. C air to +8. That adds up to a lot of money saved.
By the same token, you can get more heat per watt of electricity used from a heat pump than an electrical heater, some units working down to about -15C.
People who can’t do math are a big problem.
Heat pumps work, and if you pay for, say, a central air conditioning system, the difference in price for a heat pump instead will pay for itself very quickly, probably less than 3 years, with no subsidies.
A heat pump not only gives more heat per watt of electricity, but also works as central air conditioning.
They are excellent products, but you clowns think that they must be junk, because muh subsidies.
Its a good thing you guys don’t get to make decisions for big buildings, people would probably start dying from CO2 buildup.
No, we know anything government touches is expensive, wasteful and unreliable. Government does nothing cheaply or well. It is unwieldy because of it’s size, and absolutely horrible because it is made up of lazy, stupid, unimaginative people who never think, only emote because thinking is hard.
The fact that the gov’t is useless doesn’t change the fact that heat pumps work.
Using a heat pump as central air conditioning isn’t a selling feature in climates where central air isn’t a thing because it’s just not that hot. Places like Germany and most of Canada.
I live in NS, and you need A/C never, but plenty of heat.
Some small parts of Canada get pretty hot in summer and cold in winter.
Like Calgary, and the Quebec-Windsor corridor.
In fact, most of the people in Canada could profit by using as heat pump, but yeah, I guess it doesn’t get very hot in Edmonton, and doesn’t get very cold in Vancouver.
“Governments keep making the same mistake…”
No, they don’t. It is not a mistake. It is a -grift-. They’re stealing the money.
I changed out the massive Flame Master furnace about 15 years ago and replaced it with a Carrier unit that was about 1/3 the size of the old one. At the time, the new unit was billed as a “high mid efficient” at 88%. It was half the price of a 96% model. Doing the math at the time, break-even would be in about 25 years, so it wasn’t worth the extra cash to save maybe 10 bucks a month. I called the local sheet metal company to come and check it out last fall. He advised me to NEVER change it out telling me parts are plentiful and reasonably priced and mine still has a nice even blue flame throughout the burner and no multistage or fancy electronics. I think I made the right choice. This summer we had central A/C added and wondered why we waited so many years to do this! Admittedly I don’t know a whole lot about heat pumps, but here in balmy Alberta where we had -45° temperatures for the last few winters, I don’t think they would fair too well. And don’t get me started on geothermal heating. If you gifted your house with geothermal to your grandkids, they would never break even on the cost (compared to a conventional gas fired furnace). Much of what I see in my work (residential and commercial design) is technology for the sake of technology and definitely not for any cost benifit.
So when will Al Gore Leonardo DiCaprio and the rest of the Global Warming/Climate Change Screwballs going to start Flapping their arms to get around?