We get letters…
It occurs to me this is something you might want to investigate. [Saskatoon based Deepcorp] is proposing to build a geothermal generating plant in the far southeast corner of Sask., beyond Estevan. Supposedly the principals in this deal have an agreement in place with Sask Power to designate it as a “hydroelectric” facility, thus permitting a 40-year electricity supply contract, and a price several cents per kWh above the wholesale price of power from coal plants.
Apparently, exploratory drilling for gas/oil has disclosed the presence of a large volume of hot water (118C) in a formation just above the basement rock. They propose to pump this hot water to surface, use it as a heat source for turbines using a low-boiling point working fluid, and returning the now-cooled water to a disposal well in a higher formation. The proposal calls for a 5 mW pilot plant, growing ultimately to 500 mW.
Calling it a “hydro” plant does not make it so, even if Sask Power goes along with the deception, and further, that we both know schemes of this nature would never even be considered if the AGW fraud with its spurious demands for “carbon-free” power were not being peddled by the usual suspects. Also, I have serious doubts that they will ever get their pilot plant up and running. I foresee several potential problems:
1. The water will lose heat as it comes up the wellbore, and will arrive at
less than the formation temperature, so less heat to be exploited.
2. Low-temperature heat engines are inherently inefficient.
3. The source water is probably laden with dissolved salts. It’s fossil
ocean after all. As temperature and pressure are reduced as it comes up the
wellbore, some of those salts may precipitate out, and clog the wellbore or
the tubing. And the hot saline water will be exceedingly corrosive to the
tubing and well casing, and pumps.
4. It’s also quite possible that the hot water will deplete fairly quickly,
and if the formation has good permeability, it will soon be replaced by
cooler water from updip in the formation, again reducing the possible heat
recoverable.
Maybe there will be something on Sask Power’s Web site? I don’t think there is anything actually crooked going on here. But mis-designating this proposal as a “hydro” project stinks to high Heaven. Otherwise, it’s just another pie-in-the-sky wish-project, seeking to capitalize on the carbon scam, and the Wall government should not be touching it.
By the way, it just occurred to me that the way this deal is structured, the
company could run a completely worthless generating plant, buy coal power
from the power plants near Estevan, and resell it at a profit to Sask Power.
Not that I’m accusing them of planning this, but temptation might overtake
them if they had endless trouble with their project.
Hope you found the above interesting.
Emphasis mine. Why the hell an energy rich province would use stuff that works to subsidize stuff that doesn’t, all at the expense of SaskPower customers is anyone’s guess, but it’s the type of scheme known to get previous provincial governments in deep, deep trouble. But when it comes to politicians meddling in the private sector, there’s no such thing as a “lesson learned”, I suppose.
Any and all feedback on this is welcome.
Kate, I’ve worked on wells at that depth. The salt is typically 220,000 ppm or more. I’ve pumped fresh water down to clean the salt build-up in order to pull pipe on these wells. These wells are TROUBLE. You are also correct about the cooling factor as it reaches surface. High maintenance to be sure. I can’t see these wells creating enough heat to generate the power needed to offset operating costs. I’m no engineer, but 28 years of oil well servicing tell me this is not cost effective.
If this deal is in fact ‘in the works’ it demonstrates the one thing all Canadians have in common: the ability to elect shameless, brainless politicians who have no care or concern about the future of their region/province/country.
Good luck out there.
One has to wonder how things would have played out in McGuinty’s Ontario if someone/anyone would have ‘investigated’ the waste of time and taxpayer money going into windmills.
If this project is viable why does it require favourable pricing, or it just another green scam based on unproven theories. Put the effort into cleaning up the emissions of proven technologies with abundant resources.
At the outset this sounds like a typical green tech scam to plunder the public purse. The thing that pegged the needle on my old BS detector’s analogue meter was that large government subsidy is required. Any viable capital project should have no problem getting vencap.
As for the technology, anyone who is familiar with the petro industry and geo-tech knows that geo-thermal activity is quite common in deeper wells and yes, it is usually too cool for any practical by the time it surfaces out of the bore hole, often bearing sulphur and other noxious compounds. Low temp steam turbines are inherently inefficient. So the out put of such a project would be of marginal advantage to the local grid draw.
IF this is more than just a rumor, your scam detectors should be setting off danger sirens. With electricity at peak process, there is no e-energy production project which would have trouble getting private capital.
Y’all gots too much moola to throw around
RedFord turned down $10M for oil-by-rail-to-Alaska study.
Amazing what happens when the well dries up.
“One has to wonder how things would have played out in McGuinty’s Ontario if someone/anyone would have ‘investigated’ the waste of time and taxpayer money going into windmills….”
Well, it’s not like the information wasn’t out there.
Ontario’s Conservatives could have, and should have, sounded the alarms on all this environmental/AGW bullshit years ago. But, frightened to death by the Toronto press, not only did they not speak out, but many of them raised their hands and voted along with McDinky’s jellyfish.
Now that the province is a smoking hulk, in rushes Tiger Tim with a fire-hose, saying that if he is elected Premier, he’ll mothball The Dildo’s Green Energy Act.
No this is a real problem of beaucracy being stuck with any push back.. I would say spineless. The people at Saskpower know for a fact that they have a real and present problem with base load capacity. Talking with one plant manager after the new year, it was stated that they were only a couple of incandescent bulbs from going brown out around Christmas. But they do not push back. Wall needs to grow a pair, slap up 2 new coal fired plants asap or we will Cali in no time. Stop capitulating to the green fascists and get on with progress for christ sakes!!!!!!! On a related note I have seen several green energy companies (wind mostly) cancel MOU’s and pull out of Sask, maybe hopeful signs of changing times.
Reil
You nailed it Jamie…more like a garden hose.
“I don’t think there is anything actually crooked going on here. But mis-designating this proposal as a “hydro” project stinks to high Heaven..”
Follow the money. Friends of someone in a high place politically are about to benefit from this scam. This is no different than windmills or solar panels,the builders of said projects are always well connected politically.
Some skepticism of the current government and all it’s high ranking members is in order here. We had the same BS with Gordon Campbell and his forcing BC Hydro to contract with private power companies,now we pay about 20% more for electric power.
Don’t trust any political Party to “do the right thing” when it comes to subsidizing friends with taxpayers money,you’ll almost always be disappointed.
Assuming that the plant comes to fruition at the full 500 mW capacity, with an annualized load factor (on account of its inherent technological weakness as described above) of 40%, EACH one cent of the contracted price per kWh over the wholesale price from the coal plants will cost the customers of Sask Power $17,500,000 per year versus what they would have paid by being supplied by coal.
The present value of this annual amount (assuming a 40-year supply contract and a 7% p.a. risk-adjusted cost of capital) is $291,964,424 — this means that for EACH one cent per kWh contracted price over the wholesale price of coal-generated electricity, the customers of Sask Power would be $292 million dollars poorer today than they would be if the power were to be supplied by coal. This would be accomplished through the utility bill, which would be the mechanism by which the transfer of wealth from the customers to the owner(s) of the plant would occur.
To determine the full financial impact, multiply all of the numbers above by the TOTAL NUMBER of the (unspecified) “several cents above the wholesale price of power from coal plants.”
I hope that bit of analysis helps.
The Ontario comments above from bluetech and Jamie MacMaster are entirely correct — and when the project is declared redundant in a few years’ time (assuming it’s a take-or-pay, no-cut contract — the contract terms are important considerations that should also be investigated), the customers of Sask Power can then be introduced to the concept of the Debt Retirement Charge — which, if it’s anything like the Ontario Hydro Debt Retirement Charge, will be positioned as a temporary measure that is scheduled to last, at current rates of pay down, for, oh, another 40 years or so. Note: the Ontario Hydro Debt Retirement Charge includes the above-market-price portion of the Non-Utility Generation (NUG) contracts from the David Peterson and Bob Rae days — damn, those names again!
If it needs government assistance in the form of subsidies or tax breaks or preferential pricing it is not viable. If this was such a good deal the people proposing this geothermal generation wouldn’t need the province’s taxpayers to help bankroll their venture because private investors would be opening up their coffers. Business must be left to succeed or fail on their own merits to protect the treasury.
I thought that Saskatchewan has about 1/5 of the Bakken formation within it’s borders? Why not start up an oil fired generation station? Yes, you might need a new refinery but North American refining capacity is limited so a new refinery would have a ready market on both sides of the border for gasoline and diesel.
Coal fired generation is definitely an option as well. With the new EPA regulations in the USA shutting down many generators it’s a buyer’s market for coal and a seller’s market for electricity, thought Saskatchewan is far from where the brownouts will occur.
“price several cents per kWh above the wholesale price of power from coal plants” –
Several Cents – where do I sign up! Here in Ontario: “Coal-fired generation facilities produce power at a cost of only 4 cents per kilowatt hour versus 44.3 cents per KWH for solar energy and approximately 19 cents per KWH for wind generated. Ontario also committed to paying
as much as 80 cents a KWH for some small-scale solar projects”.
http://sarniaconstructionassociation.ca/ontarios-future-a-reality-check/
Unpossible! I was told by Ezra and folks here that Brad Wall was the Great Western Hope and that he had single-handedly changed Saskatchewan from backwater to pinnacle!
Meanwhile, out here in Eco Greenie Land, the Opposition has data from BC Hydro that all those Run of River eco generation plants will $Cost ratepayers $1 Billion over the next four years.
Why?
Those old Feed in Tariffs, just like Dulton’s Ontario, that guarantees the Operators of the Save the Planet from evil Co2 Run of River planst have guaranteed payment contracts at hugely inflated prices and they get firts priority at feeding the grid.
What’s a $billion lost dollars to the economy? Wouldn’t buy any Healthcare, or Public Eduction or fix some dangerous parts of worn out highways.
Because there is always an Opportunity Cost to being a morally superior Greenie.
The story
http://www.vancouversun.com/mobile/news/vancouver/projects+billion+dollar+loss+Hydro/7917408/story.html
So called “clean energy” today is what snake oil was to the wild west. The salesmen in white suits, high hats and a wagon to preach and promise from is the visual. Today with their hybrid cars, hemp shirts and Birkenstocks made from reconstitute pop bottles – modern snake oil salesmen are selling the ultimate green sham to Governments. Backed by their media buddies for the appearance of public pressure, and a small (very) vocal minority of professional citizens to passionately take up the newsletters and blogs with their new, green religion.
No wonder politicians think this was a good deal. They are bookended on either side by lies, and stupidity.
The idea is perfectly reasonable one if it’s engineered correctly, but it sure isn’t worth subsidising, and the motivator shouldn’t be some politician wanting a photo-op.
SaskPower has a history of dabbling in new technology and partnerships – Sunbridge wind towers, co-generation facilities, Shand Power Station is zero effluent plant designed to heat a greenhouse and built Estevan’s man made sewage wetlands to use as a raw water source, etc. So it wouldn’t surprise me if they were interested in a novel idea but an agreement for a 5MW prototype is small potatoes and a 500 MW would be a major purchase agreement for our relatively small energy market. I doubt it’ll ever be developed to that point.
Generally, SaskPower knows when to pull back from the edge of insanity. They were considering coal gasification about 10 years ago but had the sense to walk away when the estimated cost ballooned from 1 billion to 2 billion dollars. Right now they are heavily invested in clean coal conversion at BDPS (I think it’s going to be a money pit) and adding another large combined cycle natgas unit in Saskatoon. Natgas has provided most of the new generation and is a reliable technology at an affordable price. Frankly I cannot how another 500 MWs of expensive energy will necessary.
Political interference is possible but risky considering how unforgiving Sask voters are when they spot political corruption. Then again, does anyone know if SaskPower executives are getting advice from Ontario energy consultants who have fled that province before being tarred and feathered?
A related article regarding SaskPower’s descent to lunacy;
http://quixoteslaststand.com/2013/02/05/answer-to-power-needs-isnt-blowin-in-the-wind/
To answer Kate’s question, the theocracy of CAGW has unleashed rent seeking levels not seen since the military industrial complex. The energy IQ of the average politician reflects near total innumeracy. Among virtually all other commercial and industrial enterprises, government should not be involved in energy. If insisted upon, their only involvement should be limited to a utility board and preferably at a lower level of government.
Any gov’t in Sask that wants to dabble in private industry with their corporate pals and don’t immediately shout out the word, “POTATOES”, is in dire need of a spanking.
Hard.
With a paddle.
With nails.
Do not know if this is true but just thinking about future increased demand for power I would think this would come from Saskatoon and places northern.
Dam the North Saskatchewan River about 45 to 50 miles north of Saskatoon for power generation and the spin off benifits of irrigation and recreation would be beyond calculation.
Insanity is repeating the same thing and expecting a different result….
Albert Einstein
This geo-thermal stuff was tried in California, same as wind in the Altomat Pass and didn’t work….the corrossive stuff coming up melted all the hardware.
As a hypothosis it makes sense…but it is as practical as trying to power NYC with a lightening strike.
You had that chance several years ago lance when the Wall was up for re-election. And you were foursquare behind him as I’m sure you will be in the future.
I’ve heard there’s some uranium in Saskatchewan.
and if a long term visionary could sell the dam on the North Saskatchewan River, at least it’d actually work. It’s too bad it wasn’t built during the Grant Devine government years, when jobs were scarce in Sask.
this was done in the u.s., california i think. it worked for a number of years and then there was a cooling and they shut down the plants. someone with more skill than me should be able to find out about it. there was also a tv program about this as well.
Heh, I was wondering if anyone would get the potato reference.
One concern, politics/appointed crown corporation managers, is that the President of SaskPower is not from the energy industry. He is from a telecommunications background and graduated from a very liberal Ontario university. I don’t know if this will change the direction of the company but it is something to keep tabs on. Ontario and other places have shown what goes wrong when green energy ideology takes precedence over good business decisions. It doesn’t take long to go from affordable energy to being trapped into decades of high energy contracts. I hope someone in the government is keeping consumers and energy-intensive business in mind.
Heh, not much has changed, SK is as backward as ever. Too many years of socialism to ever recover. Like Russia, pretty much ruined for good.
Not an altogether bad thing, it stands as a living example to everyone else. Maybe that’s why the motto, ‘living skies’, or some such idiocy.
Iceland is basically a volcano, and geothermal generation accounts for about 1/4 of total production. What are the chances that it’s gonna work for SK?
“By the way, it just occurred to me that the way this deal is structured, the
company could run a completely worthless generating plant, buy coal power
from the power plants near Estevan, and resell it at a profit to Sask Power.
Not that I’m accusing them of planning this, but temptation might overtake
them if they had endless trouble with their project.”
It took a couple years for the powers that be in Germany to figure out that at least one solar installation was putting ‘solar’ on the grid 24/7. They were running generators at night to get the subsidy if I recall correctly.
Everyone posting here should run for office, the world would be better for it. Such logical and astute observations versus the BS that goes on in our governments today.
Many of the idiots making these decisions to subsidize “green” technologies at the taxpayers’ expense are themselves indoctrinated based on what they were fed in school.
If it is viable it shouldn’t need subsidy. And probably doesn’t deserve a subsidy in terms of value to the system if it is in the Southeast of the province.
There was a time when most of the generation was in the South of Saskatchewan and most of the load was in the North. If that is still true then a MWatt is worth more to SaskPower in the North than in the South, because of transmission losses. I think that ended with the Meridian Co-gen. Before then a kWatt-hr deserved a premium of a couple cents if it was coming from north of Saskatoon.
It has been years since I was dealing with SaskPower. At the time they seemed pretty sensible, as far as one can be answering to political masters, that is.
Why are “conservative” govts. Fed and Prov. going “Looney”.
Maybe we have to elect a “Libertarian govt.” or are they about the same.
All this stuff is going to cost us all plenty expecially us seniors who rely on a token increase of pensions each year of $20 or so.
I have the perfect solution for making money with this hot water:
Use the water in a spa of some sort, like in Moose Jaw. Keep the lights in the spa burning with conventional power.
That is all.
Just think of the possibilities should a dam be built on the North. Water sports, irrigation,30 mile lake….cottage country!! Commerce commerce commerce…plus power!Green power. And as stated above…it works.
Why not just buy real hydro from Manitoba? Our stupid premier is running Bipole 3 West anyways. Conawapa is still in mothballs thanks to Boob Rae, I think you’ll get 1200 MW, more than enough.
Kate:“…Why the hell an energy rich province would use stuff that works to subsidize stuff that doesn’t, all at the expense of SaskPower customers … is anyone’s guess …”
One reason is that Sask (and all other provinces) and the Feds have taken deep gulps of the UN “sustainability” Kool-Aid. For example, for Saskatchewan to get federal gas tax kick-backs they’ve agreed to certain “sustainability” criteria.
See the “Canada-Saskatchewan Agreement on the transfer of federal gas tax revenues under the new deal for cities and communities”:
http://www.infrastructure.gc.ca/prog/agreements-ententes/gtf-fte/sk-eng.html#scheda
(See Schedule I in particular.)
My only qualm is that the water is not hot enough. Geothermal power stations work — NZ has had them all my life (Wairaki) and Iceland has them as well. But we bore into an active volcanic field.
And they pay their way — it means we only need to use Oil (expensive) at peak times of power and use hydroelectric and geothermal (cheap) the gas (still cheapish) most of the time.
But then, NZ has enough hydro to power an aluminum smelter. from the excess capacity.
Mary, it is the Joe Clark “progressive” CINO mentality combined with the apparatchiks in the bureaucracy.
JR @ 10:19 is onto something there in a big time way. Meanwhile they treat us like mushrooms and feed us you know what.
If it is viable it shouldn’t need subsidy.
…unless it’s the fossil fuel industry, then subsidies are OK. I don’t care, it makes my fossil fuel stock more profitable.
Keep giving us subsidies and we’ll continue to fleece you at the pumps. Pay us with subsidies or pay us with higher pump prices, in any case you WILL pay us. That’s how the game is rigged in our favor. The ‘house’ always wins.
This is the energy source of the future:
http://www.wbur.org/npr/170482802/are-mini-reactors-the-future-of-nuclear-power
It’s about a decade away from wide deployment, and will make most of the ‘green alternatives’ obsolete, especially wind power.
Sounds like an update of Mark Twain’s famous definition of a gold mine:
.
“A gold mine is a hole in the ground with a liar close by.”
The potatoe reference is a classic, as I once asked John Wright (former SaskPower Pres) whether he wanted his legacy to be wind power or potatoes. The look on his face was priceless. John Wright was also in finance departemnt of prov government during the big potatoe fiasco.
First, regarding commentators proposing the North Saskatchewan – it’s not a good idea. The power generated by a hydro system is a function of the head (the difference in water level before and after the dam). The river is not in a deep gorge, and in general Sask is pretty flat. It makes for lousy Hydro potential…
Second, regarding the Geothermal plan, salt in the water will be a big issue. Cooling as it rises, not so much – insulating the daylights out of a single well shaft isn’t that hard really – it’s just pretty pointless when drilling for oil. Your correspondent is correct on the inherent efficiency of low temperature heat engines. Finally, depletion of the hot water reservoir is not something I am qualified to comment on.
Sounds like an update of Mark Twain’s famous definition of a gold mine:
.
“A gold mine is a hole in the ground with a liar close by
yes and the board and management seems loaded with mining types.
usually this kind of thing came from the old vancouver (now venture ) exchange.
Joe (12:46 on 5 Feb) is correct — if it works, it won’t need a subsidy.
Load factors for working geothermal plants are usually 90%-plus. But I emphasize “working”. If there are salinity problems, they have to be engineered out of the way or that load factor will drop very fast. That has been done successfully in working geothermal plants in US, NZ, Iceland, Kenya, Turkey, Philippines…they do produce power.
The California plant alluded to further up (The Geysers) is still in operation.
Using heat from deep hydrocarbon wells is a concept right now, but to my knowledge not yet a reality.
Anon, depletion of the reservoir is usually not a major issue with the binary plants they’re talking about here. Formation water is reinjected down other wells so the aquifer doesn’t deplete much. The heat, however, does decline with time, because the plant is drawing it.
Sask Power is currently at the Dream Stage of geothermal. Only once they get to a feasibility study should anyone take this proposal seriously.
Why the idle all winters’ vehicle insurance is subsidized at the expense of other SGI customers is anyone’s guess.
Haha, phil complaining about government insurance.
Anyway, suppose it’s the same reason land taxes subsidize your kids education.