As a follow-up to this posting about the Costco Controversy in Bellingham, Washington, Roy Green will be starting off his radio show this weekend discussing the issue.
Guests will include three women from Bellingham, including the Canadian wife of SDA commenter, Brian. The discussion will focus in on the issue at hand, but will also likely touch upon Canada’s immigration policy, asking an important question: How long after an immigrant moves to Canada should they be expected to adopt our generally accepted standards of politeness, personal space, and courtesy?
Another important question, which was raised by several SDA commenters, is this: Why are so many Canadians flooding down to the U.S. to buy milk and gas? Here are some recent prices that reveal the answer:
NW Wash Costco Gas: $1.02/litre ($3.86/gallon) – – SW BC Costco Gas: $1.33/litre –> 30% more expensive
NW Wash Costco Milk: $2.50/gallon – – SW BC Costco Milk: $4.45/gallon –> 78% more expensive
There is more at issue than just the volume of Canadians heading to the city. The notion of striving to act like a good ambassador while in another country seems to have been discarded in favour of rushing for good deals (think Black Friday). Here’s but one example.
You can listen live beginning at 11:05am PT (2:05pm ET) here. You can also participate in the discussion by calling 1-877-399-9898 or you can e-mail Roy Green ahead of time with your thoughts & questions.
Update: Those who missed the discussion can listen to it here.
In my opinion Canadians are just as bad as those they point fingers at when it comes to politeness and courtesy, and sometimes worse.
I have to say I pretty much get PO’d every time I hear some politician or media type spew out the stereotypical rhetoric of how Canadians are, or how they are supposed to be.
We as Canadians are no different than any other human being and are a product of our environment. In our little village upon the Alberta prairies we have all sorts of Canadians, ranging from polite and considerate to a$$holes and moochers.
Expecting Canadians to leave our borders wearing the magic cloak of “The Nice and Polite Canadian” is a naive expectation and an impossible feat.
My guess, Mr. Garbage Bag Guy is an NDP voter. The Stupid is strong with them.
The BIG question to ask is why Canadians pay so much for dairy – particularly cheese, milk and butter.
When that question is brought into the open and discussed and acted upon, we Canuks will start down the path to paying the true cost of out consumable goods. The key is to sever the hidden hand of supply management in the supply chain – hidden tax, subsidy, price fixing.
Hint- the legislation doing this is almost as old as the law which made the CWB wheat monopoly and the beneficiary is Quebec dairy producers
As to the question: “How long after an immigrant moves to Canada should they be expected to adopt our generally accepted standards of politeness, personal space, and courtesy?”
My guess would be immediately after the third Canadian gets right up in their face about it. Which could take a really long time, as most Canadians seem to have a profound unwillingness to call strangers on their cr@p. We prefer to whinge about it behind their backs because we’re ‘fraidy cats.
Knacker, you make an excellent point. In fact, in the Facebook group that started all of this, many Canadians have argued that the bad behaviour of their fellow citizens in Bellingham is justified because there are “Ugly Americans” out there! Huh?!?
That’s like saying that it’s perfectly fine to steal because there are thieves out there.
I’m far from perfect but when I travel to other countries I am VERY cognizant of the fact that I *AM* a representative of my country. In the same way that I don’t appreciate unruly visitors coming to Canada, I fully believe that it’s my duty to act in an exemplary fashion when abroad.
Do I expect other Canadians to accord themselves similarly? You bet. But I’m not so naive to think that it consistently happens.
Wait until you hear the stories from the ladies about so-called “Green” Vancouverites buying shoes in Bellingham, immediately wearing them, and then leaving the shoe boxes and their old shoes pretty much anywhere they damn please. Imagine walking to your nearby shopping mall and having garbage strewn all over the place, knowing fully well it’s mostly by “visitors”.
Yet the moment a respectful Bellingham resident “dares” say anything about any of this, they’re immediately deemed to be Xenophobic, Racist, and/or anti-Canadian. We truly have some real nit-wits with sub-par IQs in our midst, folks.
Phantom, so true, so true. The next time I meet a white liberal who defends such poor behaviour of immigrants, I’m going to ask him/her whether 1 year or 3 years, or 10 years is sufficient before we have even the smallest expectations of them.
What I should really do is get one of my Asian or South Asian friends (most of whom were born here) to then come up to the person and say, “Why do you have such low expectations of people who look like me? Do you think I’m less civilized than you?!” OMG that would make for a great scene in a movie!
Occam, thanks for the Dairy Boards link. I just passed it onto Roy Green. Perhaps those ridiculous anti-competition entities could be next on the chopping block?! Vancouverites have already clearly cast their vote … with their feet … heading south!
Seattle Times: Canadians crowd Costco, stores near border — but not everyone minds
Having lived extensively on both sides of the border (and always near it), I don’t think it’s that big a deal.
Does it shatter the myth that Canadian tourists are universally celebrated for being “nicer” than any others, especially those loud Americans?
Or is it the Americans’ fault they don’t recognize niceness when they see it?
I notice on I-5 that the B.C. plates tend to sit in the passing lane below the speed limit (illegal in Washington State) but then Washington State drivers are notorious for that as well. Besides, that’s a driving habit picked up by Vancouverites on #99 and Highway #1 – if you stay in the right lane you’re often stuck there.
Some jerk called a family member rude names in the Abbotsford Costco parking lot a few years ago simply because she emerged from a car with U.S. plates on it. Maybe it’s something about Costco – but I doubt it.
Visit any city anywhere with a large tourist influx and you’ll hear locals complaining, even though the tourists are boosting the economy.
This tempest too will pass.
Robert; Canuks have been going south for dairy so long they call us cheese heads down there. Dairy is the number one item Canuks see as a bargain in US supermarkets and the reason is we do not pay the true price of our dairy.
Dairy is the most exploited consumer commodity in Canada (next to fuel) with 2 separate supply control/management regimes at the federal and provincial levels.
This is why raw milk farmers see the sledge hammer of state force come down on them – even their small commerce outside the supply chain management cabal represents a threat to the cosy sinecure of those who run and profit from these commodity price fixing rackets.
Several things to deal with.
First, is the high cost of goods in Canada. Everything from gas to books to food. That includes dairy. Quebec is, by ‘law’, the prime source of dairy products in Canada; it has a near monopoly. Dairy production is third in importance in Canadian food production, and 82% are located in Quebec and Ontario, with only 13% allowed in the West.
With supply management (provincial and federal) a system of quotas has been set up, and for a farmer to invest in a farm, and be eligible for quotas, is very expensive. It’s comparable to a government supported ‘cartel’ for producing milk products. Quebec, despite its population being half that of Ontario, is ‘allowed’ to produce the most milk, over 3 billion litres of milk while Ontario has about 2.5 billion per year.
Then, there is the Asian culture, which lacks the privacy and spatial distances of Western culture. Go to a hospital in Asia, where visitors quite readily move from bed to bed, observing all the treatments. Privacy doesn’t exist.
In stores, it’s whoever pushes through first who gets served.
Our Western sense of individualism as dominant over community is an alien concept!
But, above all, it’s the prices that are a major factor.
Gasoline in a green garbage bag huh? Now there’s a Darwin Award candidate if ever I saw one. Somebody should have slapped him in the head the moment he stuck the nozzle in the first bag. I used to pump gas as a kid at my dad’s business and have lots of stories about unauthorized containers but that really takes the cake.
Brian, some have suggested that there was a jerry can inside the garbage bag. The person who took the photograph said there was not. Also, if you look carefully at the photo, there appears to be a streak of dark liquid on the ground below it, perhaps from earlier spillage?
I’ll never forget the case of a woman here in BC who brought onto a plane a large bottle of corrosive liquid (for cleaning, I suppose). She put it up top and it started leaking down on a passenger beneath.
Most people tend to give those they encounter in life the benefit of the doubt that they are reasonably intelligent and reasonably polite. The older I get though, the more I think we’re living in an Idiocracy. And I’m not just talking about those who vote NDP! 🙂
Personal space was mentioned in the post. That’s one of my biggest peeves. In my experience many immigrants to Canada from Asia have absolutely no clue whatsoever about personal space. They can be incredibly rude and pushy, shoving in front of you at the first opportunity.
When one of those buses carrying Chinese tourists shows up at our farm in the summer we literally cringe. Indeed we may ban them in the future as we are sick and tired of their poor behaviour and complete lack of understanding of politeness, personal space and manners.
I call BS on the gas in a bag thing.
First, you fill a garbage bag half full of any liquid, and the weight would probably tear the bag. My guess is that he was filling something in the bag, and the bag was used to keep his trunk clean.
Come on, no-one is that stupid! Right? Right?
Everything is cheaper in the US. Flights, gas, food, booze, cars, you name it. In Canada we have a socialist view with regards to businesses – they exist only to provide revenue to our bloated government.
Dateline 2012, Regina, SK:
(1) A visitor, with Washigton State tags on her car, is given the finger and screeched at for being a f-ing American.
(2) Same visitor, wearing a shirt with “Maine” on the front, is called a f-ing American by 2 cyclists while walking in a park.
It was never true, and only a facet of Canadian smug, moral superiority, that they are “nicer” than Americans. Couldn’t be “falser”.
Nick, could you expand on your last comment. What did you mean by “it was never true”?
Also, did you witness this yourself or hear it from the offended party directly or is the account more secondhand.
Most interested to know.
Occam @ 11:40 and 12:05 has it:
Supply management, often in the interest of Quebec industries, and to the detriment of everyone else, is a main driver of higher prices in Canada.
Canadians have been paying over $5 gal. for gas for years. Gouging.
I agree with Knacker about the myth of Canadians being nicer than Americans. In fact I have found more often more polite services in most places south of the border than at home here in BC. Of course there are exceptions, but we do not have a monopoly on niceness.
As for the economic side ET nailed it perfectly.
When I saw the story on TV, you would think it was filmed in India as the shoppers were everything but caucasian. Manners are not a prerequisite to immigration.
The BC carbon tax is 6.7 c/l, 7.7 c/l diesel, and translink takes 17c/l.
No joke, the unelected transportation bureaucracy takes that much.
So there’s a large portion, almost 24 cents per litre, 1.08 per C gallon, of BC government tax.
Thank you BC politicians, thank you very much. And remember, we have a very likely NDP government coming, thanks to a Dummy for a current premier, and a corrupt idiot previous to her.
Robert @ 12:40:
I don’t actually have access to “forever”, but my experience, and that of lots of friends, is that Americans are at least as nice, polite, courteous, helpful and friendly as the best Canadians.
The f-ing American incidents were reported to me directly by the reliable offended party. I not infrequently hear similar, although perhaps more polite, sentiments expressed by Canadians towards Americans.
The cross-border shopping/smuggling is far more effective at curtailing state power than any vote. Depriving revenue to a fascist system in Canada by taking from a heavily subsidized one in America. Red on red by proxy.
I find Canadian border services/security to be somewhat more professional and polite than their America counterparts.
If you were to put gasoline in a garbage bag, wouldn’t the gasoline just eat through the bag after a little while?
Thanks, Nick. You know, the other day I was arguing with a Kumbaya Canadian about a statement I had made online, namely that in MY conversations with literally thousands of Canadians, there’s a lot of anti-American feelings in many of them. Let me be clear: I’m not talking about feelings toward American governments, I specifically mean towards American citizens.
She said that such anti-American vitriol couldn’t possibly exist in the larger population. I think it does.
Now, if you want to break things down further, it would be most interesting for pollsters to conduct intensive surveys with people, correlating their views about Americans with their political leanings. I have little doubt that most of those who vote NDP and many who vote Liberal would not have many favourable views of Americans. Or of Israelis. Or of conservatives.
But such findings would not fit into the narrative the CBC and most others in the Media Party want to portray that Canadian Leftists are all about Hope & Love & Understanding. The reality is, as has been illustrated endlessly here on SDA, that the most ardent Leftists wake up every morning feeling hatred towards those who disagree with them.
Alain, agreed, and as you suggest ET has it right.
Robert, I suspect that your musings about a poll conducted among Canadians about their views on Americans would be accurate. At least that is my experience among Liberal acquaintances in the Niagara area.
Robert W., in support of your argument here re anti-Americanism. If you want an exciting afternoon some time, try driving from Hamilton to Toronto with an American license plate on your vehicle. Lots of people cutting you off and giving you the finger.
Usually they just cut you off.
a case of race, culture ? Just asking is all
Phantom, I could say that I’m shocked, but I’m not. As a Canadian, what bugs me the most about such atrocious behaviour of our fellow citizens is the passive-aggressive nature of it.
This isn’t altogether different than the Leftard trolls who come here on SDA, make a statement, and then when the incongruity of their words is pointed out to them, they insist that they were taken out of context. Such pathetic fools.
LAS – could you substantiate your opinion that the Canadian government is fascist?
Martin, I have read several hundred comments from the Facebook group so have a pretty good idea of what has been going on in Bellingham. But let’s await the first hand accounts of the 3 women on-air in 20 minutes. I don’t know if Roy will go there because you’re playing with fire, namely the “R” word.
But, being as considerate & understanding as possible, let’s concede that people who move to Canada from India and China and other countries in Asia have a completely different view of personal space, cutting in front of others, etc. Fine, that’s the environment they came from. BUT over a period of time, shouldn’t THEY be expected to CONFORM to the generally accepted standards here?
If a Caucasian person from Europe moves to Canada and acts rudely in front of a Canadian, at the very least they’ll get an “Excuse Me!” But if someone who moves from Asia does exactly the same thing in front of a Canadian, very likely nothing will be said. The failure to say anything in the latter case is racist … or more precisely, is the end result of the Environment of Politically Correct Fear that Leftists have instilled in our nation. 🙁
Et-I was specifically referring the Supply Management system, but elements of fascism are alive and well in many western governments. Drug prohibition and namely economic corporatism (bailouts like TARP) come to mind.
Plan of correction; Price of Milk; goodbye Quebec;
Price of gasoline; use ALL gasoline taxes for transportation.
Cutting off other cars and pushing ones way into both lines with automobiles and humans; enact license to carry handgun laws; 🙂 Cheers;
LAS, could you explain how Supply Management is fascist.
Your phrase of ‘elements of fascism are alive and well in many western governments’ is too vague to be of any evidentiary use.
Equally, how is drug prohibition a definition of a fascist government?
And what is ‘economic corporatism’?
And how is TARP a definition of a fascist government?
I think you need to define ‘fascism’, otherwise it’s an empty and subjective adjective that you seem to use to refer to government programs that you, personally, don’t like.
Robert W. said: “As a Canadian, what bugs me the most about such atrocious behaviour of our fellow citizens is the passive-aggressive nature of it.”
Oh yeah. I think the truth of things is that its the Americans who are nicer generally, certainly more approachable. Canadians are -polite-, which isn’t the same thing at all.
We’ve all been fed anti-American propaganda from the cradle in this country, and you really doesn’t appreciate how much a part of our discourse it is until you live in the USA for a year or two. Then you find out that pretty much everything you hear and read about the USA is a total -lie-.
Which shows up on the QEW as p3ckerheads cutting you off and giving you the finger because you have a US plate. Traveling in the USA with a Canadian plate, nobody looks at you twice.
Propaganda works.
Fascism’s economic heart is corporatism, whereby private property is not socialized but the government regulates how it is used and who can use it. Think of it as cynical outsourced socialism, where the heavy hand of government has been subcontracted to favoured players in the private sector. The public and private spheres are muddled. Supply management fits this to a T.
The War on Drugs is less about fascism specifically and more about authoritarianism generally. Fascism usually likes a police state and the war on drugs is an essential component of that.
Robert, you did an excellent job on the show. It was a privilege to listen.
Thanks, Bruce. I did my best!
The whole notion of acting as a Canadian Ambassador while traveling seems to have escaped the notion of some of our fellow residents. That saddens me more than a little. 🙁
Bruce, agreed.
Robert, you did a great job.
Supply management is not facist. It is what 60% of Canadians want the government telling them who can do what.
A lot of Canadian’s have an ingrained anti American jelousy in them. “You don’t want American health-care do you.”
LAS, could you provide the references for your definition of fascism? I, quite frankly, reject your definition.
The basic component of fascism is that it is a kin-based (ancestral links) collectivist ideology based around a view of the nation as a genetic, organic entity, all of whose citizens express this basic common identity. You ignore this vital factor.
Corporatism means a collectivism of people into homogeneous identity blocs – which can be tribal, ethnic, professional, economic – and is hardly unique to fascism! You’ll find it in almost any societal system, and that includes capitalism, communism, and democracies. It’s ancient and basic to mankind.
Governments in all societies establish rules by which businesses operate; these include various bylaws, rules of production and manufacturing, rules of trade, etc. Nothing unique to fascism.
Favoured players is not indicative of any type of governance but of corruption and corruption is found always and everywhere.
Your views on drugs are opposite to mine, and therefore, we have little to discuss.
To define fascism as ‘liking a police state’ is an inadequate definition, for that is also valid for communism.
I’d suggest Roger Eatwell’s book on Fascism, or Robert Patton. Both good sources.
Ford Prefect, I assume that your 60% figure comes from those who didn’t vote for the Tories?
I do see your point but I think we also have a situation of people not knowing what policies they’re voting for and the MSM effectively demonizing anyone who “dares” to think conservative policies are better.
Furthermore, any strong Liberal or NDP supporter who buys ANYTHING in America – EVER – is a hypocrite, by definition.
Thanks Robert, for inviting me on the show. I also feel like I am an ambassador when I travel, and I want to be a good guest and represent my country well.
And I do want to thank Canadians for shopping down here. The vast majority of Canadians I have met (especially my wife and her family!) have been very nice, whether it be when I travel there or when I meet them here.
FYI, there is a good chance that Costco will build a bigger and better store here in the next few years, so there will be plenty of milk and gas for all, and shorter lines and calmer nerves.
Brian, I would just like to say that we enjoy coming to Bellingham to shop almost annually when we come to visit our children in Chilliwack. The staff in the stores and people are friendly.
Rober, “Furthermore, any strong Liberal or NDP supporter who buys ANYTHING in America – EVER – is a hypocrite, by definition.”
The anti-Americanism is rampant in the Niagara area, but that does not stop them from shopping in Buffalo, NY or taking a flight out of the airport there.
LAS, gasoline won’t “eat through” a polyethylene garbage bag any more than it will “eat through” a polyethylene jerry can or vehicle fuel tank.
But garbage bags are not manufactured to be liquid-tight, and the seams may leak.
Anyone other than a Libertarian would know this.
Was just thinking that Phantom, steady diet from cbc and our LSM media which has been anti-American for so long it’s ‘a natural default’ position of many unthinking, but “nice” Canadians.
We like to give courtesy nods to American truckers – they know how to drive.
Et you’re definitions are inaccurate. What you call fascism is really ethnic nationalism-which is a fave of fascist regimes like the Hungarian government. And corporatism is all about crony capitalism.
good segment by Roy, and Robert, you were gracious and dignified by calling on Canadians to be ambassadors while in another country, and that goes for recent immigrants travelling, too.
I have not been influenced for decades with the sneer, “American-style …..” I don’t have a problem with Americans, in fact quite the opposite, and taken as a group, they stack up well to us.
These “Canadians” are mostly from Surrey where many of the businesses do not even have sign-age in English. And are the same immigrants I used to run into well shopping at Extra Foods who would block the isles and refuse to move pretending they could not speak English. Learning common Canadian curtsy should be a requirement for all new immigrants.
Oh my friend was waiting to go through to the US when a E Asian forced his way in front using the bus lane, causing a bus driver to be very angry, the US border agents waved the Que jumper in for a full vehicle and personal inspection. Paybacks a bitch.
LAS – just because you say my definitions are incorrect doesn’t make them so. I’ve asked you to provide your references and so far, you haven’t provided any. I’m afraid I can’t accept just your own opinions; you need some references, for these terms are not subjective but analytic.
Could you provide some evidence that the Hungarian government is fascist? To my knowledge it is a parliamentary democracy. So far, you have labelled the Canadian and US governments as fascist as well. I’d appreciate some evidence.
Again, fascism is a collectivist authoritarian ideology based around the idea of the nation as an organic entity, an absolute with an element of divine right with its own historic life, and dominant over the individual who is an organic part of this nation. You can read this in the references I cited. Try reading Mussolini’s outline as well.
Your definition of corporatism is also inaccurate; it is not just another term for ‘crony capitalism’.
Definition of CORPORATISM (Merriam Webster). See also the Enc. Brittanica.
“the organization of a society into industrial and professional corporations serving as organs of political representation and exercising control over persons and activities within their jurisdiction”.
This has nothing to do with fascism or capitalism but is found in any and all societies, whether the ancient guilds, modern unions, professional associations, etc.
The point is, the individual is embedded within the association. Certainly, this locking of the individual into identity blocs was an aspect of Mussolini’s fascism, but it was also a factor in the medieval era, and exists in our modern era of trade unions and professional associations.
Crony capitalism is quite a different factor. This is a state of economic affairs where economic success is linked to political relations. It’s hardly unique to capitalism but is and has been found in every single economic mode (apart from hunting and gathering) and throughout all of man’s history. It’s called corruption and is found everywhere.
I suggest that you do some research on your terms.
Courtesy is the cornerstone of civilization.
Apply it.