…to come up with this comparison:
…
“There’s still a lot of people who regard at least Kim Il-sung as a god figure, even if they are less happy about Kim Jong-il and the new guy,” he [Canadian North Korea watcher and former Pyongyang resident Erich Weingartner] said.
In that, they’re not as silly as they may seem, according to Prof. [Paul] Evans [director of the Institute of Asian Research at the University of British Columbia]. “We’ve just gone through a Christmas season of virgin births and stars travelling across the sky,” he said…“That hyper-religiosity is built into the philosophy of the ruling elite in North Korea,” he said.
Do the North Korean people actually believe it?
“Do people in the West believe in transubstantiation?” Prof. Evans asked in reply. “Do they believe in the devil?”..
Actually, I think he makes a good point. Polls have shown about 2/3 of Canadians believe in angels and half in ghosts.
Most human beings are highly irrational, whether here or in North Korea. And if voters in the West keep voting themselves goodies at the expense of future generations we will be a lot more like North Korea quite soon.
I would venture the North Koreans do not have a choice whether or not they should worship the Kim’s.
What goodies chip? Please do tell.
What an assinine comparison by the Globe and Mail. Do Governments in the West enforce virgin births as official State policy? Do they send you to prison or a re-education camp if you don’t worship the Pope?
Although, Lefties like David Suzuki have stated that they would like to send people to prison for not uncritically embracing Suzuki’s global warming science — Suzuki requires obedient religious-like faith, otherwise punishable by imprisonment.
If the G&B were honest they would compare Western environmental fanatics with the god-like dictators of North Korea. Or for an even better theological comparision, how about dictatorial Islamo-fascist theocracies, and the “72 virgins” waiting to reward their murderous Jihadist suicide bomber enforcers? How about comparing that to the innocuous Western belief in the Virgin Mary?
What occurs with Western religion in reference to blind faith vis a vis places such N. Korea and elsewhere is not a valid comparison, it is rather a stark contrast.
The only comparison I can see is that in North Korea, you have the Father, the Son and the Soon-to-be-Toast.
So we’re just as feeble minded and suspicious as the North Koreans! We’re all the same then. Let us allow the elites to rule cuz’ we’re not worthy.
I was expecting something about worshiping a man as a god in the west, beyond all evidence that he is not even an extraordinary man. Here in the west we do that even though we get to pick our leaders. Obama can do no wrong in the eyes of his supporters. In Korea, they will be imprisoned for saying otherwise about their leader.
Now when did any of these Kim’s say anything that could match the message of Christ? Even the best of the humanist messages from history only contains parts of what Christ said. Is there anything even close to humanism in the leaders of Korea?
(Guess my original comment got filtered out — borderline profanity. Revised version):
What an idiotic comparison by the Globe and Mail. Do Governments in the West enforce virgin births as official State policy? Do they send you to prison or a re-education camp if you don’t worship the Pope?
Although, Lefties like David Suzuki have stated that they would like to send people to prison for not uncritically embracing Suzuki’s global warming science — Suzuki requires obedient religious-like faith, otherwise punishable by imprisonment.
If the G&B were honest they would compare Western environmental fanatics with the god-like dictators of North Korea. Or for an even better theological comparision, how about dictatorial Islamo-fascist theocracies, and the “72 virgins” waiting to reward their murderous Jihadist suicide bomber enforcers? How about comparing that to the innocuous Western belief in the Virgin Mary?
What occurs with Western religion in reference to blind faith vis a vis places such N. Korea and elsewhere is not a valid comparison, it is rather a stark contrast.
hiccup…humans of all faiths have inflicted problems since the Garden of Eden. I always say get your eyes off the christians, and look at Christ.
The comparison of 2 ‘icons’ reveals the shallowness of Evans and his dependence on revisionist history.
There is no comparison between the loving, humble Christ,(whose miracles are well documented) and a creepy self absorbed dictator with blood on his hands.
Typical of G&M not to challenge the shallow statement.
“‘Do people in the West believe in transubstantiation?’ Prof. Evans asked in reply. ‘Do they believe in the devil?'”
Lost on the learned professor is the fact that, unlike in the Democratic People’s Republic of Korea, people in the West can choose what they wish to believe or not.
(Still, all that hokey “hyper-religiosity” built into the North Korean cult of personality does create doctrinal inconsistencies within the dogma of atheist Stalinism and juche. But then, I doubt any member of the Worker’s Party of Korea is much likely to bring that up for discussion anytime soon.)
For belch.
I don’t see Christians strapping bombs around themselves and self-immolating, while taking innocents with them.
You want to find an evil reigion, look at the present day Muzzies. If you want to live in the past, like leftists do, then continue. You are predictable.
The Norks are arguably one of the most repressive regimes on the planet. Anyone who doesn’t recognize that, from the easily available facts is ignorant, stupid, and dangerous.
No challenge of the shallow comparative statement and an automatically accepted pronouncement of superiority over the majority of inhabitants of the planet since history was first recorded.
Ah yes, all these simple people that know in their very core, that there is a God. That very belief that is taken as proof of the superiority of a small ideological fraction of the people and sufficient reason that this majority should be subjected to what ever is necessary to support this small ideological fraction.
Throughout all history, these statements that ridicule the religious beliefs of all of the known major leaders would have resulted in the immediate severing of the head from the body and a stream of urine directed at the body.
Is it fear that I hear on the part of this small ideological fraction as the worm turns.
Activist atheists are always itching to make those comparisons. UFO’s are another line they enjoy drawing.
They never evaluate the fundamental worth of Christianity on a sophisticated level when posing these strawman arguments.
The discourse is always at a level of “How did Noah get all those animals on a boat?”
First of all all humans are innately religious. Religion at its core is simply what you believe. An atheist is just as religious as a Christian or Muslim or Hindu or Buddhist or Animist or….. Believing what I believe does not in itself prove its superiority or its inferiority to what someone else believes. Rather what proves its superiority or inferiority is the fruits that it bears. Atheism as expressed in Marxism has a definite fruit that is unpalatable to a Christian but not necessarily a Muslim. The fruit of the neo-pagans as expressed in Naziism again was unpalatable to Christians but not necessarily to Muslims or Marxists. The fruits of animism as expressed in the African tribal conflicts is not palatable to Christians, Muslims or Marxists. It seems that the fruits of Christianity is largely palatable to all yet strangely enough the tree (belief system) that bears the Christian fruit is not.
The discourse is always at a level of “How did Noah get all those animals on a boat?”
Because at it’s core, that’s what belief in any sky god comes down to. One superstition is as silly as the next, regardless
The sophistication of the evaluation of the fundamental worth of your particular superstition.
Looks like its cluebat time again.
You want dangerous, talk to an atheist. Atheists killed more people in the Twentieth Century alone than all the other religions of the world managed in the previous three.
And please, never mind the philosophy crap ok? Lets compare body counts.
Atheist commies, 100 million and counting, which includes the unknown number currently being starved/murdered/otherwise offed in Norkland to make room for Kim Il Dumber-er the new fat kid/”leader”.
Even the Mooselems can’t match numbers like that. The only thing that comes close is the Black Death in the 14th Century, which killed half of Europe but didn’t beat the total number Mr. Marx’s ATHEIST disciples pulled off.
So I invite all the Christianity/religion haters to go get them selves a big steaming cup of shut the f- up and go read some f-ing history.
Phil
Sure dude believing a whole Universe came about from nothing, is real rational. Making dead matter your God (Nature) is logical. How did life start again from inanimate Matter?? Yup. I suppose you even believe in the perfectibility of mankind.
These days being an Atheist just means your smarter than the rest of the herd , right? You don’t even have to read the bible or look into archeology.
Because you just know your right, & everyone else is wrong. Gotcha. An absolute belief in nothing, the inverse of believing in God.
For those faithful who want to be able to answer for themselves the question,
“How did Noah get all those animals on a boat?”.
@ The Phantom and Revnant Dream, hear, hear.
If someone wants to believe in nothing let them do so as long as they do not try to ram it down other people’s by force.
“the perfectibility of mankind.” Like the new Soviet man.
Posted by Mark at December 31, 2011 11:14 AM
The final statement was a question: “Do they believe in the devil?”
That’s an interesting question to ask second. The first is: Do you believe in a God? Most people have a belief system of some kind.
When you ask: Do you believe there is a devil? The answers become very odd, as I see it. Yes there is a God but no there is not a devil. Seeing as most of the people I talk to are Bible inspired, it’s interesting that cherry picking God out of it and ignoring evil is done. Wonder why that is?
Ho hum all the cool kids are atheists these days . At least Nietche understood what he was rejecting. The decline of Christianity in a culture built on it’s moral and spiritual values would be a disaster. And he was right.
Patsplace said: “Seeing as most of the people I talk to are Bible inspired, it’s interesting that cherry picking God out of it and ignoring evil is done. Wonder why that is?”
I won’t speak for others, but for me its because blaming the Devil lets people off the hook. -People- do evil, and they do it by choice. Postulating a tempter lets you blame that guy. Which is sucky. You did it, you wear it.
“The Devil made me do it.” Flip Wilson, philosopher.
Except, dream, I don’t proclaim to believe in anything. I’m agnostic on most things. But Santa Claus, the Tooth Fairy and Jesus H Christ I’m certain are all silly superstition.
There is room here for everyone to be correct.
Yes, many North Koreans believe in Kim’s divine nature just as many Egyptians, Romans, Chinese, Persians, and Europeans believed in the divine nature or providential selection of their leaders.
No, many North Koreans do not believe it in the same way that many Christians celebrate Easter even though they have a hard time believing anybody rose from the dead. The deep spirituality has given way to cultural acceptance of popular mythos. The North Koreans know much of the propaganda is BS because the hunger in their bellies tells them the harvest reports are phony. But doubt isn’t enough to start a revolution, especially when every pair of eyes and ears is an instrument of the state’s secret police and no one has guns.
A well-educated Chinese woman I know had the poetry of Chairman Mao on her wall. Who knows whether Mao wrote it or if he had a ghost writer? She likes the poem and respects Mao enough to display it even though she now lives in America and has probably learned about the Cultural Revolution by now.
We don’t know if Abe Lincoln was really born in a log cabin. We don’t know if he was really honest. We know he suspended habeus corpus. We know he abolished free banking. We know he helped destroy states rights. We know he presided over the bloodiest war in US history. But we don’t mind spending our pennies and five dollar bills. We don’t mind having his image carved into stone.
After the fall of the Soviet Union, many Lenin statues came down. Saddam statues came down. Mao and Che statues remain. Who knows what will happen to the Kims? They will always have their admirers.
One thing for sure, if people start destroying Kim memorabilia, I’m going to start collecting it just like I saved pieces of the Berlin Wall. There’s no better tribute to capitalism than the commercial success of communist relics.
You did it, you wear it.
Yup, until you’re forgiven. Until then, you’re dead.
Dream,
You made a strawman and attacked it.
Science is conducted by identifying an issue, creating a hypothesis and testing that hypothesis for veracity. It’s not fact if the hypothesis cannot be proven to be true.
Religion is conducted by identifying an issue and creating a hypothesis that is not tested, but assumed to be true.
Can you not see how one increases the sum of human knowledge and the other allows bigotry based on “tradition”?
The difference between them was bridged by most of western civilization during the enlightenment… it’d be nice if you joined us.
Which is why Jean Chretien is Jon’s hero ’cause JC said “No, a proof is a proof. What kind of a proof? It’s a proof. A proof is a proof, and when you have a good proof, it’s because it’s proven.”
Joe,
Again with the strawmen. If there’s a problem with my reasoning attack that.
How can something be true (in any sense) if it can not be shown to exist (or behave) in that way?
In debates like this usually the burden of proof is on the person making the ludicrous claims… like the existence of God, or that Global Warming is happening and is man made.
““Do people in the West believe in transubstantiation?” Prof. Evans asked in reply. “Do they believe in the devil?”..”
Do people believe that their ancestors were scum floating on the surface of a pond?
Blackbeard,
As much as I believe that my ancestors 200 years ago were on average 3 inches shorter.
I really wish The Believers could understand the magnitude of geological time.
Jon, if you can’t see or understand X it does not prove anything about X except that you can’t see or understand it. Ancient mankind didn’t have the technology to see or understand microscopic lifeforms but that didn’t mean that microscopic lifeforms didn’t exist during that time frame. You have nor encountered the Christian God therefore you assume that He doesn’t exist. I have encountered the Christian God and therefore I KNOW He does exist. I also know that His existence provides a much more suitable explanation for existence than Science’s “something from nothing for no reason” which is at the core of the big bang theory.
You see at its core science is faced with the dilemma of not being able to prove its most cherished tenets. Instead of admitting its inabilities science bulls ahead by trying to belittle any belief system that pokes holes in science’s ‘certainties’. Beginning with the ‘certainty’ that God doesn’t exist it then makes all kinds of silly assumptions that ‘prove’ that God doesn’t exist. Of course it can’t prove anything in that regard so it simply comes across as being as foolish as Jean Chretien’s little brain cramp.
Joe,
So your hypothesis is that a Christian God exists. What is your repeatable test that shows this? Can other people see this or just you? How different is this to me saying that Homeopathy works?
One doesn’t need to prove that anything “doesn’t exist” the burden of proof is always on the person making the ridiculous claim…
Prove to me that magic doesn’t exist.
Prove to me that Mohammad wasn’t the true prophet.
Essentially you’re saying that you believe that a Christian God exists without any proof.
Essentially I haven’t said anything about the Big Bang Theory (as I am not an astrophysicist)…. this seems to be another straw man.
IN ALLCAPS FOR UNDERSTANDING: SCIENCE WORKS ON PROVING WHAT IS, NOT DISPROVING WHAT MIGHT BE.
You’re essentially starting from the conclusion and extrapolating to the question.
I’m not sure if you noticed but science was turned upside down when we discovered a particle that moves faster than the speed of light. Scientists (real scientists) are not dogmatic, we are occasionally surprised and curious when things don’t fit our world view, and do our best to incorporate them into our codified system of understanding.
Please give me a single example of a Dogmatic Christian accepting anything that conflicted with their worldview.
Religion and politics. You will never sway a believer (or non) in either. If you believe, more power to you. If not, that is your choice but why try to beat on those that do. Waste of time and solves nothing. Happy New Year.
I’ll make a deal with you Jon when you can replicate the “something from nothing for no reason” as found in the Big Bang theory then we can have a rational discussion. Until then pound sand. “Since the burden of proof is always on the person making the ridiculous claim”, man up and start proving your ridiculous claims. Your world view is as silly to my mind as it would seem mine is to yours. You have no proof of your world view because as you say you have not explored it. I have proof of my world view both from personal experience and the witness of millions of people through out the millenia.
Belief in angels and ghosts makes you “irrational”? You’ve lived a sheltered life. Let’s hope you never look either an angel or a ghost square in the face.
Those who have may be wrong to believe in what they’ve seen, but they’re not at all irrational.
Joe:
Where did I claim anything about the big bang theory?
Strawman. Please educate yourself.
Also the scientific method is the only way to derive observable truths. Everything else is false. Happy new year, “pound sand” how unchristian of you.
Try to understand the significant and important differences between spirituality and the business of religion.
Psalm 14:1-3 The fool says in his heart, “There is no God.” They are corrupt, they do abominable deeds, there is none that does good. The LORD looks down from heaven upon the children of men, to see if there are any that act wisely, that seek after God. They have all gone astray, they are all alike corrupt; there is none that does good, no, not one.
There is more evidence for the existence of Jesus Christ than any other person in history. The same can not be said of the tooth fairy or santa clause because they are fairy tales meant for children; whereas, a person who within 3 short years, completely and radically changed the entire world in every dimension – including time, was an actual historical living breathing person whose existence is acknowledged by an abundance of historical and archeological records that are completely independent sources and have absolutely nothing to do with the new testament except to confirm the miracles recorded therein, prove beyond any reasonable doubt whatsoever that Jesus Christ existed. Now whether one believes he is/was the son of God is another matter, but the fact he existed is indisputable by any reasonable person.
Goes to show that some atheists, like liberals, simply memorize and parrot talking points without bothering to read history and apply sound critical thinking skills to discover truth or facts. Pity.
Oh so now Jon is also an expert on what is “Christian” and what isn’t. Wow. Not only that but he claims science answers all the questions but then claims complete ignorance on the scientific theory du jour on the beginnings of the universe.
Not only is Jon ignorant about my worldview he is equally ignorant about his own! The truly sad part is that Jon is not unique amongst the adherents of the secular religion Scientism. They are not about to do any experiments to prove or disprove the theories of other worldviews, they are simply going to endorse their own theoriesand dismiss all others based on their own self perceived ‘intellectual superiority’.
It’s a real shame that people like you and your absurd theology keep sane people from voting for a party that wants lower taxes.
Lori, There’s far more proof of my existance than there is of Jesus. I’m not disputing such a person exists… more so that there was nothing important about him despite his success as a martyr. BTW Prometheus was a far cooler martyr.
It’s so frustrating that you equate science with belief. Science is the way, the light of the universe. Religion is an antiquated set of beliefs that require profound ignorance of the world around them.
Incidentally Lori, if your bible has any truth you should be stoned to death for disagreeing with a man.
“Incidentally Lori, if your bible has any truth you should be stoned to death for disagreeing with a man.”
Oh look Jon just gave us another brilliant display of his own ignorance.
Happy new year anyway …
Well said,”peterj”, just what I was going to say.
What a waste to end the last year ever, arguing about whether God exists.
Happy New Year,and as it’s the last one, be sure to run up your Visa and Mastercard to the max.
Jon – you are incorrect on both accounts. Nowhere in the Bible, old or new testament, does it say women can be stoned for disagreeing with a man – you’re confusing Christianity with Islam. You just confirmed the memorizing of talking points without checking facts for me.
As for evidence of your birth, your vital statistic records and any other records can simply be erased with a push of a keyboard button and poof voila – you don’t exist.
Conversely, your identity can be hijacked with the greatest of ease. If you think that proving you are who you say you are is a simple matter, I urge you to talk with victims of identity theft who have spent years, some unsuccessfully, trying to prove they are who they say they are and No they did not buy that boat, car, or house nor default on the payments for them.
Have you ever lost your wallet with all your identification? It can take months to get the documentation you need to re-issue your drivers license.
Please if you are going to argue about the Bible at least read the Book. Good points Lori & Joe. Happy New Year. Jon, Jesus is alive everyday in my life. And you?
Its when charismatic christians claim the earth is only 6,000 years old, that ruins their credibility and any objectivity they might have.
Heard it only a few weeks ago, before I could start asking them about radio/carbon dating, my wife changed the subject……
In regards to radiometric and carbon dating, there are serious limitations with both of these as well as other geological clocks.
http://www.specialtyinterests.net/carbon14.html
The Bible says the earth is older than 6,000 years old. Read the book Dan.
To everybody at SDA…have a happy and joyfully prosperous New Year. Stay safe.The idiots will be out in full force tonight.
And to Jon and Joe….try this from Kate..”Take your extended debates and/or flamewars to private email”.
Lori,
The limits of carbon dating are pretty insignificant compared to the limits of belief. Quick: Belief me into accepting Jesus. I bet you can’t. Re: Stoning, I assumed you were a child (based on your reading comprehension and argument quality) and Deuteronomy 21 18-21 applied.
A@C:
I can’t believe Jesus is alive in your life. For the rest of us, also those who understand what alive means, he’s been dead for about 1978 years… so that’s something. Christians often use words like know, believe, love, compassion and alive in a way that has nothing to do with what the words actually mean.
Joe:
I wish 2 wrongs made a right. Being called ignorant by you makes me feel like the smartest person in the world.
It’s a shame all of you haven’t done better at biblical scholarship.
Leviticus 19:18
Happy New Year, hopefully it is one of scholarship outside the realm of your comfort.
BTW I’m a reformed Christian who has lived enough to know that if the bible has any truth to it we’re all going to hell. Part of my reform was meeting people like you, the other meeting genuinely nice people who weren’t Christian and realizing the Revelation damns them to hell for not accepting the same Jesus that makes you so tiresome.
a@c
No argument here, but too many charismatic christians (family members too) believe the earth is only 6,000 years old, despite overwhelming, irrefutable scientific proof otherwise.
And THEY claim the bible says so. (where really it is a man’s interpretation of what a person thought, not necessarily God’s word.)