…to come up with this comparison:
…
“There’s still a lot of people who regard at least Kim Il-sung as a god figure, even if they are less happy about Kim Jong-il and the new guy,” he [Canadian North Korea watcher and former Pyongyang resident Erich Weingartner] said.
In that, they’re not as silly as they may seem, according to Prof. [Paul] Evans [director of the Institute of Asian Research at the University of British Columbia]. “We’ve just gone through a Christmas season of virgin births and stars travelling across the sky,” he said…“That hyper-religiosity is built into the philosophy of the ruling elite in North Korea,” he said.
Do the North Korean people actually believe it?
“Do people in the West believe in transubstantiation?” Prof. Evans asked in reply. “Do they believe in the devil?”..
Of course you are a former reformed Christian Jon. Reformed Christians confuse the Qur’an and the Bible all the time. Just like they misread Leviticus 19:18 as excuse to never say something that may cause offense to someone else. Well Jon I’ve been preaching the Gospel for almost 30 years and I can’t think of a time when my preaching hasn’t ruffled someone’s feathers somewhere. I’ve been punched in the face. I’ve had people get up and walk out mid sermon. I’ve had entire churches rush the altar at the end of the sermon. I’ve seen rough tough men weeping like babies over something I just said. I’ve had phone calls from chagrined parishioners when I had no idea I was even touching a raw nerve. I had one man become a Christian after I told him, in no uncertain terms, that he was an inconsiderate slob. He remains a close friend of mine to this day. So when I tell you to pound sand, I mean it. Go pound sand. When you actually develop the intellectual curiosity to explore ALL your beliefs then get back to me. As it is you come across as an intellectual flyweight that lacks the capacity to send a coherent thought on a blog comment section. Confusing the Qur’an and the Bible. Snort. Holding up science as a source of truth and then pleading ignorance about science. Double Snort.
Surely, the learned professor knows that we believe in ONE virgin birth and ONE star traveling across the skies, ONCE! And, yes, some of us believe in transubstantiation, because we feel it was promised by the Divinity. And yes I believe in the devil, and in fact believe that it was him that made you act like a pompous ass!
Jon
“Incidentally Lori, if your bible has any truth you should be stoned to death for disagreeing with a man.”
Wives – no. Disobedient children – yes – although method isn’t specified. That’s Old Testament stuff and it can be freely ignored. New Testament trumps Old.
I don’t much care what anyone wants to believe, just so long as their beliefs don’t make them think they have some religious right to kill me if I don’t agree with their interpretation of God.
Correct me if I’m wrong, but there is only one modern religion that holds that ‘death to infidels’ belief. That should be a wake up call.
Actually North of 60 there are two modern religions that kill non-believers. Scientism as expressed on Marxism is the hands down winner in body count.
North of 60, well said and if I may add to your first sentence “force me to join their religion or brand me an enemy of the people and work me to death in a labour camp”.
Joe, exactly.
Those who say God is incapable of taking on human form (virgin birth) also say humans evolved from lifeless matter that itself spontaneously appeared.
Well, the G & M can elevate relativism to an art form…but it still comes down to this: which Kingdom would you rather live in – one ruled by Christ or Kim?
I agree that more people have been killed by governments professing atheism, however communism/Marxism/atheism isn’t a religion normally defined as
a set of beliefs concerning the cause, nature, and purpose of the universe, especially when considered as the creation of a superhuman agency or agencies
In fact, atheism is quite the antithesis of religion.
@Walterf:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Miller%E2%80%93Urey_experiment
Isn’t the internet amazing.
Well North of 60 in my mind the set of one beliefs one has is one’s religion. In Scientism for instance the ‘scientist’ is the priest/clergy. Instead of consulting the entrails of a chicken or holy writ, ‘studies’ are consulted and the interpretation of those studies is not to be questioned. Thus a ‘scientist’ is the secular arbiter of truth in ways no Christian clergyman has been viewed since the dark ages.
Powerfactor, thanks, and here’s another URL in return:
http://www.answersingenesis.org/articles/tj/v18/n2/abiogenesis
Happy New Year!
Most of that is valid, but completely misses the point. The Miller-Urey experiment never claims to be a thorough proof of exactly how life originated on earth. It only attempts to, and IMO succeeds in, demonstrating that chemical abiogenesis is possible.
I have never heard of an atheist who claims to know the origin of life. What’s wrong with not knowing? Humanity is still in its infancy, there is much more to discover.
What’s worse is those who KNOW FOR A FACT that it was created by the Judeo-Christian God described in 3000 year-old religions texts written by various bronze age scholars. What if we were content with that fact that lighting is caused by Zeus/Thor/(insert supernatural phenomenon)? Or content with the FACT that diseases are caused by demons? It makes sense, right? Diseases are bad, demons are bad, so they must be correlated, right?
Religion is mankind’s solution to its instinctive fear of death. That’s all there is to it.
I know anyone that reads this (if anyone even does) will only reaffirm their conclusion that atheists are irrational or ignorant or just hate God, but I don’t even care. Had to get it off my chest, regardless of my inability to put thoughts into words. Happy new years.
Jon
Science is just a method of investigation through trial & error ,not a religion. It was developed in , wait for it, only Christian Europe!!! Just like our hospitals, Education, Universities. Slavery was abolished by a Christian. Not by Agnostics nor Governments.By the way try to prove Jesus didn’t rise from the dead. A warning though. All who try, strike out. Its just to well documented. As is the book of Acts.
Read some history buddy. Look up Pascals wager for a start. Look at archeology. The fact 200 cultures have the same flood story. Investigation before condemnation. Isn’t that what your talking about?
In the efforts to prove or disprove the existence of a higher being, we’ve overlooked the CANKOR useful idiots’ attempts at moral/cultural equivalence. I don’t remember Christ asking His followers to put entire families in concentration camps the way the Kims have but I do know that Christians risk their lives trying to help North Koreans.
By they way, ignoramuses who call the Higher Being “sky god” or the like or just cannot bring themselves to spell “Christians” through either a literacy or theological fault, way to shoot your horse before he gets out of the gate.
Happy new year, everyone.
In the efforts to prove or disprove the existence of a higher being, we’ve overlooked the CANKOR useful idiots’ attempts at moral/cultural equivalence. I don’t remember Christ asking His followers to put entire families in concentration camps the way the Kims have but I do know that Christians risk their lives trying to help North Koreans.
By they way, ignoramuses who call the Higher Being “sky god” or the like or just cannot bring themselves to spell “Christians” through either a literacy or theological fault, way to shoot your horse before he gets out of the gate.
Happy new year, everyone.
He’s not evil; N. Korea is not FUBAR, merely mi-interpreted.
Phantom, I am atheist and have killed no one. However, I am also not a totalitarian socialist.
True, Robert. My guns have killed less people that Teddy Kennedy’s car, too.
Just saying that your chosen religion has some dark history that -some- people like to pretend isn’t there.
Thing I love about the Santa Claus/Tooth Fairy crowd at the Globe and Mail is they think they can separate the Kim Godhood cult from the totalitarian terror state of North Korea, as if the one didn’t support and reinforce the other. Begging the question much?
Powerfactor, keep looking for the model that fits observations.
What if we had been content with Darwin’s assumption that the cell is a simple, rather uninteresting blob?
A Biblical creation and a massive global flood fit a lot of geological observations better then other ideas out there.
@DanBC, an atmosphere with a different ratio of C14 isotopes would make your carbon clock misleading.
I don’t remember Christ asking His followers to put entire families in concentration camps….
But I seem to recall followers of christ the sky god putting entire families in death camps. Gott Mit Uns.
try to prove Jesus didn’t rise from the dead.
Try to prove Joe Smith didn’t dig up golden plates which he translated into the book of Mormon by speaking into his hat.
Prove Mit Romney’s underpants aren’t magical.
Phil, as I said, you shot your horse before he got out of the gate with the “sky god”/”don’t-know-the-basics-of-English-grammar-which-is-why-I-can’t-capitalise-Christ-even-though-it’s-a-proper-name” garbage. All that does is emphasise the weakness of the Nazi argument you attempted to make.
Atheists just don’t try.
Phil the Nazis weren’t Christian. They were closest being neo pagan with delusions of being Nietzschean supermen. A dear friend of mine was almost shot by the Nazis when he wouldn’t join them. His reason for not joining was because he was Christian.
As for your other silliness: It is impossible to prove a negative. However it seems possible to prove a positive. In that light may I make a proposal, why don’t you prove that something came from nothing for no reason. It is the only possibility left to an atheist. Get back to me with your proof ok?
I make no claim that “something came from nothing for no reason.” You’re the one making claims. The onus is on “believers” to provide proof.
So, kinyobe, as you said. Who gives a shite what you say?
And yeah, Joe, many Nazis were christians. As were the Ustasha, etc…..
As I said, Phil, atheists just don’t try. What next? Will you threaten to take your toys and stamp off home? Then turn around and say everyone hates me? Who is the pillar of reason, Phil? Someone with throwaway lines like “Who gives a shite what you say?” and will not capitalise a proper name because it belongs to a being he doesn’t like (you can’t hate something if it isn’t real, by the way)? Just childish.
I see you are limited in your mental skills Phil so I will spell it out really slowly.
We exist.
How did we come to exist?
Christians say that Eternal(beyond time),Omnipotent (all powerful), Omniscient (infinitely wise and knowing), Omnipresent (everything is in Him) Yahweh (I AM) created the universe and all that we see out of Himself.
Atheists say that Yahweh doesn’t exist.
If Yahweh doesn’t exist then how do we exist?
Science says the universe began with the “big bang”. Intelligent people then ask what caused the big bang? Science says that nothing caused the big bang it just happened. What just happened we ask? Why something came from nothing for no reason happened, science says. Oh OK then either small minds like Phil are incapable of understanding the contradictions of their own position or they are just too intellectually lazy to dig a little deeper. I suspect intellectual laziness.
That’s your proof, Joe? Where did your yahweh come from?
You do have reading difficulties don’t you Phil. What part of “Eternal(beyond time)” Don’t you understand.
No Joe, you don’t understand. What you have is not proof, but blind faith…faith being belief without evidence or to put it another way, superstition, with no more or less credibility than any of the other hundreds of gods or magical beliefs.
Don’t even try to reason with the troll.
Wrong again there Phil. My faith isn’t blind nor is it even up for discussion. What we are discussing is the believability of two world views. The Christian world view of Yahweh creating out of Himself all that exists in our world or the ‘scientific’ world view of something coming from nothing for no reason.
When I look at the world I don’t see a whole bunch of something coming from nothing. I see even less of something coming from nothing for no reason. In the world I inhabit I see complexity beyond complexity working in a harmony that is indescribable. As a former engineer I marvel at the brilliance of the designs I see every day. As a former engineer I am all too familiar with the law of unintended consequence. I change this part of a design to meet that criterion and the whole design is rendered useless. Again as a former engineer I am amazed at the timing involved in the creation of life. If these events (more than one) don’t happen at just instance, life doesn’t exist.
When I take into account all that I see and all that I understand I ask myself, “Did this all come from nothing for no reason?” “Could this have come from nothing for no reason?” The conclusion I draw is NO. Something doesn’t come from Nothing. Brilliant design does not happen without Reason. Every event has a cause. The big bang is no exception.
What we are discussing is the believability of two world views.
Two world views of your construction.
This something from nothing nonsense is your strawman. You’re making the claim about the nature of reality. Again, the onus is on you to provide proof. Magical thinking in the form of eternal/beyond time doesn’t cut it.
Every event has a cause. I would suggest your yahweh god is an event. What caused that?
Don’t even try to reason with the troll.
Better get back to the public trough, comrade, or you may lose your place.
Phil do you even know what a straw man argument is? I highly doubt it or you would have never used it in this context. However since you have brought it up please illuminate us here. What straw man argument have I brought up? Did I misquote several astrophysicists I saw on Science channel a few months back when they described the Big Bang theory as ‘Something from Nothing’? Did I misinterpret all the (neo)Darwinists out there who claim that evolution is a blind occurrence meaning one without direction or planning? Just because you don’t understand what modern science is telling the gullible doesn’t mean that I am erecting a straw man argument when I correctly interpret their statements for you.
Proof? What is proof? Would a knock on your door and a visit from someone claiming to be G-d be proof? Would a loud booming voice from a thicket be proof? Would G-d have to become man to provide that proof? Would G-d have to pick up a concrete baton and twirl it in air, and then return said baton to the ground safely where it then bursts into a bouquet of roses be proof? Would it only be proof if G-d appeared and said he was G-d and that his baton twirling was offered as proof? Would G-d have to agree to a series of TV interviews where he answers all and any questions be proof? Would G-d have to eliminate all wars, cure all diseases and punish all the wicket before we agree that is proof? With proof will everyone then submit to his authority? Would anyone decide not to submit to his authority? Would those deniers be punished? Would that need to punish deniers be proof that G-d was not really a G-d?
Please explain what would be acceptable proof?
I guess I rated Phil’s intellectual capacity too high. He doesn’t even know the difference between an Eternal Being and an event. Chuckle Chuckle Snort Guffaw.
An event is something that occured. An eternal being a figment of your imagination. No?
No.
For example a rock is a being. It exists.
A rock rolling down hill is an event. It occurs.
See the difference?
An Eternal Being is not a figment of my imagination. It is the only logical conclusion left on the table since something does not come from nothing. See why?
“Incidentally Lori, if your bible has any truth you should be stoned to death for disagreeing with a man.”
Posted by: Jon at December 31, 2011 6:16 PM
Jon, I’m pretty sure that’s not in there; not that it would matter if it were. For one thing, she’s disagreeing with you.
An Eternal Being is not a figment of my imagination. It is the only logical conclusion left on the table since something does not come from nothing.
an eternal being is something, no? Something does not come from nothing, right? Your words. Where did your magical eternal being come from? Really Joe, I don’t know if your statements are a sad commentary on believers, or a sad commentary on engineers.
Phil, in the beginning God created the heavens and the earth.
God created time, space and matter.
He exists with or without these. However, time, space and matter do not exist without God.
Walter, your belief in such nonsense don’t make it so.
@phil, again I ask, what would you accept as proof? Please define proof?
A Christian, Jew, Islamist, Buddhist, a Sikh, and a Hindu stand together in a room.
Who’s telling the facts?
Jason: You had better hope it’s the Jew and Christian.
Christians and Jews believe in the same one God who created the heavens and the earth, is personal, knowable, and loves his creation sacrificially. Eternal life is peace and joy where you eat, socialize and live – where God has prepared a home especially for you. He gives wisdom, love, guidance, and picks us up when we fall – he promises that “a bruised reed he will not break”, “beauty for ashes”, the “oil of joy for our mourning”, and by “his stripes we are healed” and that “He was bruised for OUR iniquities”.
Some Islamist’s, if obedient to the Qu’ran, would behead you for even asking such a question – all they offer you in eternity is 70 something virgins – I don’t think you even get to pick – not very creative, I can see the appeal for sex addict’s though.
Buddha did not claim to be god, nor did he claim to create the heavens or the earth. Buddhism is about accepting death, the only way in which you are eternal is through becoming part of the ocean or food for the animals.
Hindus believe in many many god’s traditionally 330 million of them. Reincarnation is eternal and not looked upon by Hindu’s as a positive necessarily, which is why a great many Hindu’s convert to Christianity – to escape the never ending cycle of reincarnation.
Sikhism is only 500 years old and was created by Guru Nanakis who rejected the rites and worshiping of all the demi gods in Hinduism. Sihks do believe in one god of creation. Their holy book, the Guru Granth Sahib, is compiled from the writings of Sikh Gurus, Hindus, and Muslims. Transmigration is a common theme in Sikhism. The soul travels through countless lifetimes in a perpetual cycle of birth and death.
Nice dodge there Jason. Now go do your own research.
A@c is quite right. The Bible doesn’t give anything like an age for the Earth. What it does give are a series of genealogies tracing the lineages of various figures, including Jesus, back to Adam. Since you can place these figures in history, you can reckon the time it must have taken to go though the preceding generations, and you come with something like 6,000 years.
Nowhere does the Bible tell us how long Adam lived before he fathered his children. He did that after he and Eve were cast out of Eden, in which he might have lived indefinitely long. And nowhere does the Bible say when Adam was created, except that it wasn’t on the sixth day of creation, when the first men were created, but sometime later.
So, if you believe Adam led a normal lifespan and was created immediately after creation, then creation was about 6,000 years ago. Problem is, you have no reason to believe that. The Bible doesn’t tell you so, and everything else tells you different.
As I said before, we’ve veered into a huge cosmological discussion when what we should have done is focussed on CANKOR’s absurd assertions that Christian belief/thought/images/ect are akin to those of an evil dynasty. We’ve seen this kind of equivalence in discussions concerning Islamofascism and it’s so stupid it doesn’t even merit parsing save for the fact that someone out there may buy that total pig crap. The cult of personality of the Kims- as with other atheist communist dictators- is necessary for the perpetually oppressed to believe that the one fat man running the country deserves to do so even though he lacks the charisma, logic, elected support or human feeling to appeal to his people. Giving to charity at the behest of an Israeli carpenter doesn’t even come close to the latter.