…the actual implementation reflects somebody with the experience of two years in the Senate, who had never navigated outside of academia and Chicago tit-for-tat politics. So Mubarak is/is not a dictator, must leave now/yesterday/sometime soon as he serves as sort of a figurative leader/a critical transition player/a suspicious counter-revolutionary inasmuch as the U.S. must lay down conditions/advise only/respect Egyptian prerogatives, as private conversations with Egyptians are spilled to the press, Obama suggests the Cairo desire for freedom somehow channels his own support, and Biden, Clinton, and Obama contradict one another hourly.
Indeed: “Leon Panetta told us Mubarak was going. The perky newscasters kept telling us that Mubarak was going. President Obama (head left: utter a cliché; slowly pan right, emit another cliché) thought that too.” […] In a way, Hosni Mubarak is acting far more democratically then the protestors demanding his ouster. There is an election scheduled in Egypt for September. The democratic solution counsels patience: let the process unfold. Have the election. There is a difference, in short between what Plato called ochlocracy, i.e., mob rule, and democracy. It’s not at all clear that the cheerleaders for the Egyptian demonstrators have taken that distinction to heart.
Update: Mubarak has handed over power to the military and left Cairo. (The fine print).
Related: All is quiet in Iran. Speaking of Iran – “Interestingly, the Shah of Iran was also forced out on February 11. Let’s hope this isn’t an omen.”
here it is again on the hated cbc:
http://www.cbc.ca/world/story/2011/02/11/egypt-mubarak-future.html
why is this carefully prepared crow still uneaten?
February 11 Events in History
2010 A European Union summit discusses the possibility of bailing out Greece’s economy
2009 Morgan Tsvangirai becomes Prime Minister of Zimbabwe after agreeing to share power with President Robert Mugabe
2006 Dick Cheney accidentally shoots friend in a hunting accident
1993 Janet Reno selected by Clinton as U.S. Attorney General
1990 Nelson Mandela, a political prisoner for 27 years, freed in South Africa
1987 Philippines constitution goes into effect
1987 U.S. performs nuclear test at Nevada Test Site
1986 Activist Anatoly Scharansky released by U.S.S.R., leaves country
1986 Iran begins Fajr-8 offensive against Iraq
1985 Jordan king Hussein and PLO leader Arafat sign accord
1979 Iran’s premier Bakhtiar resigns, Ayatollah Khomeini seizes power
1978 China lifts a ban on Aristotle, Shakespeare, and Dickens
1975 Margaret Thatcher defeats Edward Heath for Conservative leadership
1971 U.S., U.K., U.S.S.R., others sign Seabed Treaty outlawing nuclear weapons
1968 Israeli-Jordan border fight
1964 Greek and Turks begin fighting in Limassol, Cyprus
1963 CIA Domestic Operations Division created
1961 Trial of Adolf Eichmann begins in Jerusalem
1953 President Eisenhower refuses clemency appeal for Rosenberg couple
1953 Russia breaks diplomatic relations with Israel
1945 Yalta agreement signed by FDR, Churchill and Stalin
1943 Transport nr 47 departs with French Jews to Nazi-Germany
1941 Lieutenant-general Erwin Rommel arrives in Tripoli
1861 President-elect Lincoln takes train from Springfield Illinois to Washington D.C. [The high-speed train of its day!]
1861 U.S. House unanimously passes resolution guaranteeing noninterference with slavery in any state
1808 Anthracite coal 1st burned as fuel, experiment
1790 Society of Friends petitions Congress for abolition of slavery
1766 Stamp Act declared unconstitutional in Virginia
1543 Battle at Wayna Daga: Ethiopian/Portuguese troops beat Moslem army
1543 Karel/Henry VIII sign anti-French covenant
1531 Henry VIII recognized as supreme head of Church in England
The guy is scary in his guile or his ignorance. I’m going with guile myself.
Posted by: Speedy at February 11, 2011 1:42 PM
Me, too, Speedy. Put me in the guile camp. Probably the most hilarious observation I heard from the punk was that “the Muslim Brotherhood” don’t have the support of the “majority of the Egyptian people”. This marxist punk has gotta know that the vanguard is usually a very tiny percentage of the people. I may have the number wrong but according to the Black Book of Communism which I read 2-3 years back, there were only about 2500 Bolsheviks.
It isn’t over yet but it is hard to see what he could have done differently.
Posted by: gray at February 11, 2011 3:15 PM
That’s easy. He should have spoken positively about US ally Mubarak, said that he had contributed greatly to the relative stability of the ME by keeping the cold peace with Israel BUT that he should consider not running again in September (having ruled for 30 years); that a decent transition period is needed to develop good opposition options; that at all costs, the Egytian people should attenuate their enthusiasm and not allow militant Islam to hijack the revolt as it did in Iran in 1979, which Islamic takeover had not been what the people really wanted or expected.
Robert of Ottawa nails it. This is Jimmy Carter redux. Carter rated countries based on their human rights record, not on their strategic place in the world of geopolitics. The result was an Iran that became much more oppressive than it was under the Shah. The US was perceived as weak and the Muzzies wrere emboldened by that. I fear Egypt will follow in like manner.
Obama should have declared days ago that the country of Egypt is not ready for an election, and that the military should adminster the country until things settle down.
Sorry to see such a po-faced reaction around here to a really wonderful departure from things as usual. The non-violent projection of power and, in particular, the prominence of women activists send the usual stereotypes to the remainder bin.
Call it the Muslim Sisterhood.
// In a way, Hosni Mubarak is acting far more democratically then the protesters demanding his ouster. There is an election scheduled in Egypt for September. The democratic solution counsels patience: let the process unfold. Have the election. There is a difference, in short, between what Plato called ochlocracy, i.e., mob rule, and democracy. It’s not at all clear that the cheerleaders for the Egyptian demonstrators have taken that distinction to heart. //
Civil protest is a part of any society with democratic politics. As for Plato, he counselled this –
// The principle thing is that no one, man or woman, should ever be without an officer set over him, and that none should get the mental habit of taking any step, whether in earnest or in jest, on his individual responsibility. In peace as in war he must live always with his eyes on his superior officer … In a word, we must train the mind not to even consider acting as an invidual or know how to do it.” (Laws, 942ab) //
Love that “In a way”
I don’t have a good feeling about this freedom in the streets “victory.” I don’t know what’s next, but whatever it is, I’m not convinced it’s democracy.
“A really wonderful departure from things as usual…in particular, the prominence of women activists sends the usual stereotypes to the remainder bin.”
Do you mean the prominence of these women in western media like the CBC/CNN, where reporters go out of their way to find and air the opinions of these women, or the prominence of such women in *Egypt*? There’s a world of difference between what you and – despite your assertion – most people here think, and what’s actually happening in the corridors of power in Egypt, including the army.
Your “Muslim Sisterhood” link is just a photo of a woman – I was really looking forward to something more – and the “remainder bin” comment is more than just premature, it’s pollyanna-ish, kinda’ akin to “war is over if you want it.”
Time will tell just how prominent “women activists” are in the government that “replaces” (*wink-wink*) Mubarek.
Over 90% of Egyptian women have been subjected to clitorectomies. I guess you could even say a part of their anatomy put in the remainder bin. There’s your Muslim sisterhood.
I think, a lot of this ME uproar can be traced back to the invasion of Iraq.. George Bush , may in fact have gotten what he wanted with the democratization of the Middle East. The invasion of Iraq, probably opened the area up to images of Western culture.,and far more people in that area than before, saw what they didn’t have, and decided they wanted more. Unintended consequences, for sure. This situation can go off in all directions, but you will never be able to unscramble those eggs that “W” stirred up.. In my humble opinion, high fives for “W”.
batb @ 9:53, you are right to have a bad feeling about “victory” for democracy and the joy on the street in Cairo. The track record for these types of revolutions enabling a democracy is not good. Petrograd in 1917 and Tehran in 1979 come to mind.
The events of the last week could be just as earth shattering as either of those events I mentioned above.
As in Russia 1917, there may well be factors that many are ignoring such as a food issue.
http://www.nationalpost.com/news/world/Rain+Saskatchewan+revolution+Egypt+soaring+food+prices+helped+topple/4268892/story.html
Wow Kate you’ve outdone yourself. You’re seriously suggesting that Egypt’s protesters should wait for another rigged election because democracy requires ‘time and patience’. You are so full of crap. Were you calling for ‘time and patience’ when the Iranian protesters took to the street in 2009?
// Do you mean the prominence of these women in western media like the CBC/CNN, //
I meant what I said. I didn’t mean that women will be running the country.
And the “muslim sisterhood” picture referred back to what I had just said.
Sorry if it disappointed you, but you didn’t make clear what “something more” you expected. If you want more examples of Egyptian women trying to change the place, try this profile of a woman who has worked 20 years to develop girls & womens soccer in Egypt
A WOMAN’S WORLD Sahar El-Hawary
// clitorectomies. […] a part of their anatomy put in the remainder bin. There’s your Muslim sisterhood. //
It didn’t stop them from asserting their rights against the Tyrant.
FGM was made illegal in 2007, but I don’t imagine that it had ben a big priority for Mubarak.
A man who could lecture as the father of the country, telling his children to go back to work.
He had given 60 years to Egypt. And all he has to show for it is a few tens of billions of dollars.
You’d think that a group which proclaims the right to overthrow tyrany would applaud this victory.
Ken (Kulak) @ 12:25: Your family, and anyone having lived under a volatile, totalitarian regime, know how swiftly all that appears to glitter and hold the promise of a better, freer, life can, overnight, turn to ashes and servitude.
If this uprising results in a true democracy for Egypt and its citizens, then hallelujah. I fear, however, that Mubarak’s leaving office with the military in charge will simply be a fresh opportunity for another dictator to come to power, perhaps less sympathetic to the West and Israel.
If this uprising becomes the opportunity for the Muslim Brotherhood to either take power or begin to infiltrate the new government on its way to taking power, it will be a Pyrrhic victory for the Egyptians.
So far the only thing that has happened is the military leader is gone long live the military. Other than changing the name on the president’s desk the power structure remains in tact. The point remains that Islam and democracy are incompatible. You might as well give a dog a pen and expect it to compose sonnets.
Melanie Phillips’s latest: “Everyone’s a neo-con now”.
“The reaction in Britain and America to the turmoil in Egypt has produced a number of astounding revelations.
“The first is that everyone in the bien-pensant world is now apparently a neo-con. You really do have to rub your eyes at this very hard.
“For the past seven years, western progressives have screamed without remission that George W Bush, Donald Rumsfeld and Uncle Tom Neo-Con and all were criminally out to lunch to pretend that democracy could ever come to Iraq through ousting a dictator.
“The neo-con article of faith, that the Arab or Islamic world could or should embrace democracy and human rights, was held up as an example of cultural imperialism, racist bigotry or insanity or all three.
“Yet when the Egyptian protesters called for regime change and free elections, those very same Bush-whackers excitedly hailed this brave new dawn of Islamic freedom . . .” Highly questionable.
http://www.melaniephillips.com/articles-new/?p=796
// Melanie Phillips’s latest //
“Mad Mel” they call her in Britain — on this side of the pond the Saturday Night Church Lady comes to mind.
Was there ever a person who could sound so vehement & forthright while including more weasel words than a used-car salesman.
e.g.
// In the thirties they were effectively created as a political force by the Nazi Party //
One can almost see her neurons firing in a barrage of verbigeration —
Muslim Brothers … fascists … extinction of human rights … fanatical Jew haters … Nazi Party.
Someone should explain to the good lady the difference between an invasion & a popular uprising.
She’s actually projecting her own contradiction on others, just in reverse.
She obviously hates this revolution.
Were you calling for ‘time and patience’ when the Iranian protesters took to the street in 2009?
~libertariansaresmarter
That’s just stupid.
The protesters were in the streets of Iran because Iran had just had an election and the opposition, whom those protesters represented, had just won that election.
President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad refused to step down.
It happened less than 2 years ago, you must have been hiding under some rock dealing with a hangover from your smartness pills to have missed the context of that piece of history.
You don’t know that Oz, no one does actually. They might have lost, but gotten more seats were it not for rigging and repression, just like for the opposition protesters in Egypt. Nice try at splitting hairs hypocrite.
An interesting post comparing the role of women in Iran 2009 & Egypt 2011.
Don’t be too smug beagle. Panetta was basing his statement on media reports.
Now doesn’t that just reek of professionalism?