Jeff McMahan, professor of philosophy at Rutgers University…
Our own form of predation is of course more refined than those of other meat-eaters, who must capture their prey and tear it apart as it struggles to escape. We instead employ professionals to breed our prey in captivity and prepare their bodies for us behind a veil of propriety, so that our sensibilities are spared the recognition that we too are predators, red in tooth if not in claw (though some of us, for reasons I have never understood, do go to the trouble to paint their vestigial claws a sanguinary hue). The reality behind the veil is, however, far worse than that in the natural world. Our factory farms, which supply most of the meat and eggs consumed in developed societies, inflict a lifetime of misery and torment on our prey, in contrast to the relatively brief agonies endured by the victims of predators in the wild. From the moral perspective, there is nothing that can plausibly be said in defense of this practice. To be entitled to regard ourselves as civilized, we must, like Isaiah’s morally reformed lion, eat straw like the ox, or at least the moral equivalent of straw.
But ought we to go further?
I won’t spoil the surprise by quoting further.
(h/t Black Mamba)
The man’s not a heretic, he’s an idiot. Personally I like my philosphers rather well done, to make sure the excess fat has dripped out. The human equivalent to chicken wings, thre is spare pickin’s from those bones. All rope, no soap.
Yes, yes, it’s best to end suffering by ending the suffering, yet he dosen’t want to play God. Solid logic don’t you think?
Read the whole thing… my conclusion is he likes to hear himself talk more than anything. This is what happens when you’re locked in the ivory tower far too long.
NJ tax dollars at work.
Hope Christie has: ” Fire incompetent university profs. ” high up on his to do list.
Wow,I couldn’t get through the whole article.If this is meant to stimulate a debate,fine,however if it is written to inform,this man is out to lunch,hopefully a fat,juicy,sorrowful burger accompanied by a plate of happy potatoes.
In the end, he came full circle.
And they printed this on dead trees. The trees suffered under the axe and saw. And then were mocked by this drivel printed on their pulped and dried fibres.
I can still hear the screaming.
The screaming trees!
Oh, the humanity.
Scratch a Leftist, Discover another Eco-Terrorist!
Alfred North Whitehead once observed that the European philosophical tradition “consists of a series of footnotes to Plato.” I wonder to whom Jeff McMahan would be a footnote. Paris Hilton, perhaps?
How can anyone write such a long article about meat and not mention bacon even once?
I once had a job as a park nature interpeter. My supervisor foisted a Philosophy mjaor on me as my co-worker. This asshole couldn’t tell a Wren from a Song Sparrow, but by golly she considered herself my superior in every way you can think of.
My opinion of anyone who studies philosophy as anything other than a horrified look at the undue weight people give their own mere opinion hasn’t changed since: they are all self-important navel-gazing dickwads.
He started with ..I’m nuts, I’ll get fired, then hung.
He presented his case.
Lots of mumbo jumbo, malarky and gobbledegook.
He shot down all the arguments he knows he will face.
He ended with ..I’m nuts, I’ll get fired, then hung.
My assessment..
He really is nuts.!
“If this is meant to stimulate a debate, fine, however if it is written to inform,this man is out to lunch..”
yeah, this essay sounds more like the cliched paradoxes typically put forward as discussion in 1st year university classes. This NY Times essay is a recycled homework assignment for his class.
I say put him in the lion’s den and see how the lion feels about the learned professors suggestion that the lions give up predation.
The prophet Daniel seemed to fare well, let’s see how the professor holds up. Oh a little weak in your faith professor or lacking B12 vitamins?
Be fruitful and multiply; fill the earth and subdue it; have dominion over the fish of the sea, over the birds of the air, and over every living thing that moves on the earth.” (Genesis 1:26, 28)
Which is why when we visit the butcher shop we give the animals we consume a mercifully quick death…
The professor also completely neglects predator prey cycles in nature which would necessarily allow the unsustainable growth in herbivore population. I can see it now, buffalo by the millions return to overrun the plains and the Plains Indians return to their former lifestyle…
Besides I don’t like to chase my BBQ steaks so I let the butcher do it for me. Its called specialization, so would the learned professor please return to the Paleolithic age where his DNA will be naturally selected for termination due to lack of B12.
Hans-Christian Georg Rupprecht, Commander in Chief
1st Saint Nicolaas Army
Army Group “True North”
Once again, Shakespeare said it first, and said it best, in the Chicken of Venice –
Hath not a Chicken eyes? Hath not a Chicken feet, organs,
dimensions, senses, affections, passions; fed with
the same food, hurt with the same weapons, subject
to the same diseases, heal’d by the same means,
warm’d and cool’d by the same winter and summer
as a Human is? If you prick us, do we not bleed?
I apologize Kate, maybe I’m going to spoil the surprise for some who read the entire article. I did not bother after seeing it’s length and was not going to comment.
However, after jumping to the end to look at some of the comments, I read the last paragraph.
This old hippie wants the end of all carnivorous species. So that the world can be run by the rabbits? I never did look at any of the comments.
I’ll be sure to return to the NYT next week to read about the unconscionable treatment of the grass known as wheat and it’s distant cousin the rice plant, by evil man.
On second thought, maybe I shouldn’t have called the author an old hippie, even if he is one. Universities have always had lots of guys like him in them. They throw around crackpot ideas and every once in a while something great happens. That’s why universities are called ivory towers isn’t it? What’s bad is that the NYT thinks that this particular idea is one of the great ones.
Which is, I guess, the point of your post (give me enough time and I usually figure it out).
A thousand sheep are afraid of one wolf. One wolf is not afraid of a thousand sheep. For over a century the progressives have attempted to end the divisions between humans. The divide between that professor and myself is an unbridgeable chasm.
The problem is not that he’s a philosopher.
It’s that he’s an ethicist, and more specifically the sort that happily takes on stupid assumptions and parades them for attention.
His logic isn’t faulty, particularly – it’s the assumptions he’s using to fuel it that are wrong.
rebarbarian:
Of course the learned professor forgot:
“An army of sheep, led by a lion, is better than an army of lions, led by a sheep.”
Alexander the Great
Hans-Christian Georg Rupprecht, Commander in Chief
1st Saint Nicolaas Army
Army Group “True North”
Meat – it’s what’s for dinner. Deal with it.
Can’t believe I read the whole thing. It is my day off and I haven’t motivated myself enough yet to do the BS medical reports I dread doing which is why I clicked on this link. There should be a DANGER, ETHICIST warning before such articles so that they can be safely skipped. There’s something profoundly unethical about those people who label themselves “ethicists” and perhaps this one can facilitate his own extinction to spare us further arguments of this type.
Andy has the last line there from Chicken of Venice wrong. It should be:
If you pluck us, do we not bleed?
I am more than willing to propose that we begin serving soylent green in restaurants, to deal with the overabundance of idiots in the world. He can be the first person on the menu.
Yer supposed to pluck em after ya kill em 😉
sigivald at 5:01 PM – His logic isn’t faulty, particularly – it’s the assumptions he’s using to fuel it that are wrong.
“Contradictions do not exist. Whenever you think you are facing a contradiction, check your premises. You will find that one of them is wrong.”
Ayn Rand
Sigivald said: “His logic isn’t faulty, particularly – it’s the assumptions he’s using to fuel it that are wrong.”
Verily.
In the computer biz they have a saying, “garbage in, garbage out.”
If that guy is an ethicist and philosopher then I’m Napoleon, the Emperor of France. His assumptions are so abysmally bad a high-school class could demolish it in five minutes. Two minutes for a grade school class, they’re less polluted with PC foolishness.
I wonder if this goof has heard of the concept “measurement”?
Did this guy recently overdose on Disney movies?
The inclusion of of God into his demented ramblings was beyond odd. A doubt a true believer would seriously consider destroying an entire order of animals. Nor would anyone with any knowledge of ecology, biology, evolution…
All I can assume is that his editor was looking for a sacrificial lamb to increase internet traffic.
“I say put him in the lion’s den and see how the lion feels about the learned professors suggestion that the lions give up predation.”
The lions would eat this “straw man” alive.
The lion and the calf shall lie down together… but the calf won’t get much sleep.
~Woody Allen on Isaiah
When he says we ought to end carnivourism he can’t mean burgers too, can he?
vegetarian Old native word that means bad hunter.
At this time, after about ten minutes reflection (while I consumed mass quantities of fried unfertilized chicken embryos) it occurs to me that the good professor is an idiot for another reason.
Carnivores are not the source of all strife and bloodshed in nature.
Ungulates particularly are noted for beating the hell out of each other and anything else that wanders by during mating season. Other vegetarian species, both mammals and not, control encroachment on their grazing territory with violence and bloodshed.
Even single celled life forms have this protective reaction, and attack each other with chemical weapons, such as the penicillin mold attacking bacteria.
There is no excuse for the good professor to single out only carnivores and omnivores for eradication. Following the logic, he’d have to burn the Earth down to molten, radioactive, airless slag. Oh, and then nuke himself. From orbit. Gut bacteria, you know. Very tenacious.
Its the only way to be sure.
I think he has a point. This would justify our seal hunt, we wouldn’t have to worry about driving polar bears to extinction, and Greenpeace could park the anti whaling ships.
Don’t go! It’s a cookbook!!!
[Did I guess right?]
Well, that was definitely not worth the read.
Next…
absinthe enhanced
LOL. You are so right.
And then we should look at omnivores, among them at humans and particularly at the author of that article. I am certain that he will be first to give ua an example regarding extinction of omnivores. Preferably by committing a seppuku (known also as harakiri).
When I’d read just a couple of paragraphs by this “philosopher”, I was reminded of the movie “History of the World”. In it, there’s a priceless hilarious scene where ancient Greek philosopher Mel Brooks arrives in ancient Rome and, without gainful employment, goes to the Roman unemployment office. The bureaucrat on the other side of the counter was Roman unemployment clerk Bea Arthur.
She starts to question Brooks:
She “Occupation?”
He: “Philosopher”
She: “Oh, ‘B*llsh*t Artist’!”
He: “Well..” he shakes his head in tacit agreement
She: “Did you b*llsh*t last week?”
He: “No”
She: “Did you try to b*llsh*t last week?
That scene had me laughing til my stomach hurt. And now, for some reason, that Roman job classification “B*llsh*t Artist” reminds of “Professor” McMahon. Well, at least there’s evidence that “Professor” McMahon did try to b*llsh*t this week.
This essay is not to inform or indoctrinate…it’s sole purpose is to provide an income for the author….
Henry Higgens of Pygmalian had a more valid notion of what a philosopher should be.
This clown thinks he is Mary Poppins.
I am not usually exposed to children’s entertainment but I suspect that “Madagascar” is no more a kid’s movie than Orwell’s “animal Farm…is light entertainment for children.
“Shrek” also has a subliminal message as well…..a message unheeded….check the donkey in the WH.
Animals bred in captivity (save for the free range stuff etc) are “designed” to reach maturity and slaughter age quicker than those in the wild. Therefore, less fossil fuels are used to produce the food.
And Philosopher Pentti Linkola of Finland is even more wacko/dangerous – he wants to kill of the top predator – us !!
[ Finnish philosopher says oppressive and brutal government should exert “tireless control of citizens” in shocking insight into threat of eco-fascism movement – Linkola openly calls for Nazi-style mass extermination policies to “kill defectives”] Prison Planet
Al Gore and James Hansen agree.
Confirming the stupidity and self-loathing of NYT readers, the single most highly recommended comment(584 recommends) is from Tom, Boston:
“The most destructive carnivorous species in the world is the human. Perhaps their “controlled extinction” would be a good thing?”
This fellow has caused me to coin a new oxymoron phrase:
An “educated moron”.
Sheesh
you’ll all have noticed as I did that ‘little socrates’ never once mentioned BACON in his absurd migraine inducing essay…
i know his type well…we all do i’m quite sure…
when his vision of society comes to the last ditch everything carnivorous is for the high jump EXCEPT bacon…..
so is this assh**e from Savannah Georgia like the last one ?
I think it was GK Chesterson who said something like:
“There is no idea so ridiculous and repugnant that some professor somewhere will not support it.”
“There is no idea so ridiculous and repugnant that some professor somewhere will not support it.”
How about animals for human consumption be genetically engineered with no nerve endings and brain dead! Zombie cows perhaps?
I would apply for a study grant, but I’m sure someone somewhere has already suggested such a brilliant scheme.
The freak is preoccupied with death…That may explain why Canadian policy is hell bent on correcting all the injustice of the past (like the Christmas Story) They may think a perfect Life is replaying the past in a ritual preparation for death… Good Luck
He & his greenies should take up the task of saving the Tasmanian Devil… The perfect recycler….It has been said the devil can sense (6th) weakness from ~50 Miles, and 10 devils could devour a greenie in 12 min…(each 40 pounds per HR) The greenie final solution only limited by the amount of devils saved
Phantom @6.49pm – indeed, why stop at carnivores? An insightful post
Precisely – once you start weeding the garden, where do you stop?
“Nuke from orbit” is a rather callous (no, diabolical) approach. Not much love in annihilation. Far better to be treated as worth the blood and effort to fix…somehow.
The “problem of evil”? Oh foolish theologians! Do you not read?! Matthew 13:29…
Intellectual troll engaging in mental masturbation. In public. Nothing more, nothing less.
Humans are not now nor have they ever been carnivores. We are omnivores we can eat anything.
Instead of exterminating all carnivores, perhaps we could start with parasites instead. Like, f’rinstance, philosophers? Nobody will miss them, I’m certain.
Sigivald @5:01pm and 002 @4:22pm, stay tuned. I’ll discuss your posts in a minute.
But first, surprisingly, I have to defend the Professor. He carefully chose sentient prey creatures as the focus of his concern — beings capable not only of experiencing pain, but also concomitant terror. Can we not agree that all talk of the poor viruses and such are beside the point?
Now, Sigivald, I can only agree with you in part. True, the Professor’s assumptions are lousy, but I must argue that his logic is also crap.
When a predator strikes, it is running a great risk. The Professor speaks of terror, agony and struggle. The struggle part is important. The predator can be seriously damaged by a stray horn or hoof. What can it do if its jaw is broken? Bad, probably fatal news. So the predator really wants the whole action completed as fast as possible. Yes, screams, growls, blood, all that, but only for seconds, rarely minutes.
Now consider: if the predator species are all removed, the prey will expand to the limit of the food source. But they’ll keep breeding. Starvation sets in.
Starvation has stages, and the mind-numbed final stage is a mercy. Prior to that most of the stages are remarkably agonizing: fierce intestinal cramps of course, but equally fierce musculature cramps as they shrink when the bones don’t. Same is true for the connective tissues, not only the tendons but also the ligaments, which harden and loose their resiliency. Bones weaken and can break easily. The skin where it stretches also hurts, and in sensitive to point pressure. Can’t stand comfortably, can’t sit comfortably, can’t lie down comfortably: there is no relief. And it lasts for weeks or months.
Rather have your throat ripped out in 30 seconds? Me too.
The Professor has not carried his logic to its inevitable conclusion. The Professor is a dolt.
But a word of comfort for you, 002. Have you not considered that there may be many fine biologists who share your (and my) love of bacon? And can you not take (vegetarian) heart in the thought that if nature gave us the egg plant, biologists will provide a bacon plant?