Now is the time at SDA when we juxtapose!
CBC Fruit Fly Guy, Aug.28 2009 – The number of sockeye returning from the ocean to the Fraser River this year is one of the lowest in the past 50 and follows two years of dangerously low returns. In fact, we have witnessed decades of decline for diverse sockeye populations from the Fraser Watershed, some of which are now on the brink of extinction.
Vancouver Sun, Aug.26th 2010 (link fixed) – Fishery officials estimated Tuesday that more than 25 million sockeye salmon will return to the Fraser River this year, the largest number since 1913.
h/t Peter M.
Larry says DDT isn’t very effective and that I should do some research on it. Like you did Larry? What, you read “Silent Spring” as part of your environmental justice studies curriculum?
I did read up on it bud. The death toll is climbing and the numbers are provable.
DDT can be effectively sprayed in tiny amounts and it is extremely effective. You may notice that there is no longer a threat of Malaria in most of the civilized world – because of DDT.
Larry, step and and be counted. You and your green friends don’t have the guts to say you support policy that murders a million a year so you throw out some BS denying it occurs and try to intimidate those raising such points into shutting up.
Greenies have murdered more people than the Nazis, and are fast approaching the commies (as if there is a difference).
So Larry, deny and ignore the truth all you want but in the end, those deaths will be laid at your
big green door.
Hey Kate! Glad you brought that up! Saw the conflicting reports myself! The “Suzukian Cult” has been know to fudge a few numbers from time to time.
I see the good warmista trotted out the global warming canard in his article. Except that it was a cooler ocean that helped the salmon thrive. If only he had left global warming out of the article…
I will not hold my breath for anyone to ask Suzuki,or any alarmist,for an explanation of why they were so wrong. They engage in this tripe continually. Throw mud,sometimes it sticks.
Will anyone be concerned about the census forms 4 years from now? Most likely not,but the liberal media has added another doubt to the undecided voter. They will never publicize their errors in any way close to the number of times that they spew their nonsense. It works,they know it.
We desperately need REAL news reporting in this country,and soon. The entrenched outlets are becoming worried because of Sun Media.
There are many examples of biased reporting in this country. The most recent,which I find very troubling,is the lack of curiousity over Judy Srgo’s possible mortgage fraud. She screws us out of $100G and no one is looking into it.
I wish I could rob a bank and avoid charges by paying some(or all,we don’t know) of the money back.
Q: Mr. Suzuki; since you have repeatedly claimed that politicians who disseminate false information should be charged and jailed, when will you be surrendering to police in the interests of fairness?
“There is current research into tree ring growth on the theory that good salmon years coincide with strong tree growth due to fish fertilization along riparian zones on the coast”
It would be the other way around…strong tree growth coincides with good salmon years. I’m sure there is some correlations, however there are much more influential factors in tree growth that would take precedence.
“Hey BTG, the headline in these BC waters parts last night was THE GREATEST SALMON RUN SINCE 1913 (courtesy the Province)
Please enlighten us about the 97 year salmon cycle talking point.”
Are you dull? There is a four year cycle…every four years there is a strong run…this strong run is VERY strong. No one has approached the subject of subpopulations…within the run there are subgroups, each spawning in a unique area. Some of these subpopulations remain at critical levels…which is WHY THERE ARE SUCH LARGE SWINGS IN POPULATION. If the total population consists mostly of only a few subpopulations, any changes to these subpopulations have a huge impact on the total number.
“Larry says DDT isn’t very effective and that I should do some research on it. Like you did Larry?”
It was ME who said that, you Larry. And yes, I’ve done some research on DDT.
“I did read up on it bud. The death toll is climbing and the numbers are provable.”
So you haven’t done any research…you ‘read up on it’…whatever that means. Clearly not much since you didn’t have anything to say about it.
“DDT can be effectively sprayed in tiny amounts and it is extremely effective. You may notice that there is no longer a threat of Malaria in most of the civilized world – because of DDT.”
Like I said, you’d have to constantly spray it, which is not an economical or logistically efficient way of control.
In the ‘civilized world’, by which I assume you mean America, they drained most of the swamps…and mosquitoes a few times a year at predictable times.
“Greenies have murdered more people than the Nazis, and are fast approaching the commies”
One of the stupidest things I’ve ever read…you’ve been reading the BS Peter Schwartz writes haven’t you? The guy spouts about things he does not understand.
Is anyone actually listening to this BTJ?
Not one shred of evidence. Not one.
The only time BJT comes out of the Muslim rants is to criticize commenter’s and defend moonbats.
Did I say 25 million? … I meant 30 million.
http://tinyurl.com/2fyxnk9
What predictions look like when “experts” don’t have a clue and that knowledge is fed into computer models.
http://tinyurl.com/2fhd6f2
Your free prediction for next year – 4.543 million to 31.865 million … because accuracy is important.
No one has approached the subject of subpopulations…within the run there are subgroups, each spawning in a unique area.
I’ll be brave and approach the subject.
I think the bears in the unique areas the sockeye salmon spawn in should be eliminated, thereby insuring the contined viability of these subgroups of sockeye salmon.
8^D
Not bad oz >
Much better than the BTJ assertion that hordes of bucktoothed Chinese communists are prowling the banks of the Fraser River “over fishing it”.
To begin with Vancouverite Chinese are mostly from Hong Kong. BTJ is probably Warren Katskilla in disguise, coming in to bash good immigrant Canadian Chinese.
Here’s another laugh:
“There’s a huge number of fish,” said fisherman Phil Eidsvik. ….Eidsvik, who is also spokesman for the B.C. Fisheries Survival Coalition, said his only worry is that too many fish will be allowed to spawn, causing mass deaths as fish fight to reach their spawning grounds. As salmon have a four-year life cycle, this could in turn jeopardize the 2014 fishing season.
See, there’s always a reason to panic! Too many fish will in turn cause fish deaths.
Knight99:
Hi sweetie…boy do you know how to flirt!
“Not one shred of evidence. Not one.”
Except for that article of course. But there will never be evidence if you ignore everything. You are what we, the next generation, call a ‘hater’.
“I think the bears in the unique areas the sockeye salmon spawn in should be eliminated, thereby insuring the contined viability of these subgroups of sockeye salmon.”
Bears don’t work like salmon, you get rid of the bears in one area and others move in immediately.
“Much better than the BTJ assertion that hordes of bucktoothed Chinese communists are prowling the banks of the Fraser River “over fishing it”.”
What the hell are you talking about. Chinese people IN CHINA over reported their catch numbers, so dramatically that once the actual numbers were used global catch had been decreasing, rather than increasing. But hey, if you want to defend dirty Commie practices, go right ahead big boy.
“We analysed a unique dataset of scientific trawls made from 1977 to 1989 and from 1997 to 2002, at depths from 800 to 4800m. Over this time, overall fish abundance fell significantly at all depths from 800 to 2500m, considerably deeper than the maximum depth of commercial fishing (approx. 1600m). Changes in abundance were significantly larger in species whose ranges fell at least partly within fished depths and did not appear to be consistent with any natural factors such as changes in fluxes from the surface or the abundance of potential prey. If the observed decreases in abundance are due to fishing, then its effects now extend into the lower bathyal zone, resulting in declines in areas that have been previously thought to be unaffected. A possible mechanism is impacts on the shallow parts of the ranges of fish species, resulting in declines in abundance in the lower parts of their ranges. This unexpected phenomenon has important consequences for fisheries and marine reserve management, as this would indicate that the impacts of fisheries can be transmitted into deep offshore areas that are neither routinely monitored nor considered as part of the managed fishery areas.”
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2677247/
More:
“A major mid-1980s shift in ecological structure of significant portions of the Southern Ocean was partially due to the serial depletion of fish by intensive industrial fishing, rather than solely to climate factors as previously hypothesized. Over a brief period (1969–1973), several finfish stocks were on average reduced to http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1111/j.1467-2979.2008.00293.x/abstract
These sustainable harvests were not achieved. In the late 1980s, the Canadian government introduced drastic cuts in the Northern cod total allowable catches (TACs). The drastic TAC cuts were not enough. In 1992, the Canadian authorities felt compelled to impose a temporary 2-yr harvest moratorium on Northern cod. The authorities were horrified to find that the resource continued to decline after the moratorium had been imposed. The harvest moratorium still remains in place (in 1996) and has ceased to be temporary. It is now indefinite. To compound the misery, the Canadian authorities have had to impose harvest moratoria on several neighboring groundfish stocks.
http://www.esajournals.org/doi/full/10.1890/1051-0761(1998)8%5BS72%3AITPPIF%5D2.0.CO%3B2
Now why don’t some of you try doing your own research for a change. It’s not hard…you can even start with google, just use google SCHOLAR. It’s completely unrealistic to expect someone on a blog to provide you with all the information you need, especially considering the space limitations. Before you decide to type your nonsense, go do some reading.
BJT>
What the hell are you going on about now? I said proof! You claim I have a crush on you, as you are obviously gay. But you provide no proof. Not very bright in the lighting section around here lately.
Salmon, yea their cool I eat them from time to time myself.
Bears don’t work like salmon, you get rid of the bears in one area and others move in immediately.
Says you.
At least you see the bears as the threat to the salmon that they are, I take that as a surrender from you on that point.
I say if you let the hunters set up on the salmon runs the bears will be decimated instead of the salmon.
(like shooting fish in a barrel only the fish get to live and the bears get to go in the barrel)
You Lefties need to learn to think outside of the box, or at least think independently instead of getting your talking points dictated from above.
BTJ – “Pesticide laced nets/drapes covering windows and over beds are MUCH more effective.”
No they aren’t. When a thin solution of DDT was sprayed on the walls, malaria deaths in Africa plumetted. When DDT was banned the death toll reverted to what it had been before. Nets were the supposed solution offered by appologists for the ban. The people affected tried them, they would try anything they thought might work, yet the death toll remained high. A woman from Sudan (refugee) told us that her greatest fear as a mother was malaria. Now that DDT has been re-introduced to some of those areas the death toll is dropping again.
The stuff has got to be the least harmful (and most effective) pesticide ever developed, and you want it banned. I percieve two truths from this. You’re totally ruled by ideology, and since it won’t affect you, you couldn’t care less about Africans.
I recall the discussions about the abysmal sockeye return last year. Global warming seemed to be blamed more than anything else. Now with a record run it isn’t even mentioned.
wendy.g,
Although I have lived in the lower mainland for 20+ years, I can say that I know about the same as you do about salmon. I do know that Phil Eidsvik, who ran as a conservative MP, and John Cummins (who is a conservative MP) have a “clue” about the fisheries here … I don’t believe either want to see the end of the sockeye runs.
From what I understand (regarding this run), it is much like screaming fire in a theatre. If there are 5 people, no problem … all get out, if 500? none might get out. Only about a million spawners (according to Cummins) are needed – go to 3 or 4 for a margin of error … all the rest are a problem.
John Cummins says that Alaska has a clue – the DFO doesn’t. Based on the predictions, measures taken, and the outcomes it shows that John Cummins is correct (and by proxy, Eidsvik).
Me? … what do I think? How do you manage something that you know nothing about after spending billions of dollars? I am a slight bit curious about a grey whale chasing herring in False Creek and about 300 dolphins chasing herrings in the Howe Sound earlier in the year, might have been (in a small way) foreshadowing this salmon run.
“I said proof!”
Well you’re going to have to be a little more specific their chief…I gave you proof that populations of large fish have been on a steady decline..but apparently that’s not what that little mind of yours want to be spoon fed.
“You claim I have a crush on you… But you provide no proof”
You follow me around like a lost puppy, always teasing, trying to get under my skin…if that’s not flirting I don’t know what is. Flattering, really.
“Says you.”
Says anybody who knows anything about bears and has half a brain…they can smell odors from a miles away, they are big eating machines, they are scavengers and hunters…all they do is move around trying to find food…they know where other bears are and they know where food is.
“At least you see the bears as the threat to the salmon that they are, I take that as a surrender from you on that point.”
I wouldn’t expect anything more from you, you don’t display a very high capacity for rational thinking. Only an ignoramus would think that bears come anywhere near the number of salmon humans consume. What you’re suggesting can be likened to the suggestion that the Afghanistan war alone is responsible for the US’s deficit.
“No they aren’t. When a thin solution of DDT was sprayed on the walls, malaria deaths in Africa plumetted”
You didn’t prove that pesticides (such as DDT, a PESTICIDE) laced screens/drapes aren’t more effective, in fact you partly proved my point. That a thin layer of pesticide on barriers in the home is more effective than spraying large areas.
“You’re totally ruled by ideology, and since it won’t affect you, you couldn’t care less about Africans.”
No, I just recognize that DDT isn’t the only pesticide out there, and that there are more effective methods than flying over areas in a plane and spraying pesticide all over the place.
∞² at August 28, 2010 1:40 AM
Hmm, well, my husband grew up on the Adams River, and remembers the salmon running so the river was solid, fish to fish across the river. Didn’t seem to hurt then. I’m just saying…
…they know where other bears are and they know where food is.
The hunters are where the food is, or did you forget the point of discussion was the ability to shoot them at the salmon runs?
They come to the salmon runs and they get shot.
The salmon are the bait and the hunters are protecting the salmon.
Grizzly bears are solitary, most bears other than black bears are.
Grizzlies are what eat the salmon, they have territories of 90 square miles.
They only come together for the salmon, you low watt eastern twat.
Yes, humans eat more salmon than bears.
But the bears eat the spawning salmon at the runs which keeps them from reproducing at the nadir of their life cycle, try to keep up will you?
-“No one has approached the subject of subpopulations…within the run there are subgroups, each spawning in a unique area.”
~BTJ
What does “each” and “unique” mean?
Pretty specific when talking about salmon subgroups, eh?
If true, then if should be easy to target the bears on those “unique” runs and shoot them as they come to kill the spawning salmon.
You shoot one group of bears, if another comes, if they come, you shoot them too.
Really, you picture that these powerful eating machines with the great noses should number in the hundreds at the salmon runs, eh?
Hunters would come from all over the world for the opportunity to shoot legendary top tier predators.
Good for the economy and more salmon will survive so people can eat them in tasty sandwiches.
It’s win-win!
~C:o)
wendy.g: Adams River Salmon Run is a tourist attraction – an amazing sight to behold – literally a river of fish – can not even see the bottom of the river – the water is crystal clear in that river – it’s not a large river either.
wendy.g,
Hubby watched the 1913 run?
“The hunters are where the food is, or did you forget the point of discussion was the ability to shoot them at the salmon runs?
They come to the salmon runs and they get shot.
The salmon are the bait and the hunters are protecting the salmon.”
And your point is? Are there hunters along every mile of the river 24/7?
“Grizzly bears are solitary, most bears other than black bears are.
Grizzlies are what eat the salmon, they have territories of 90 square miles.
They only come together for the salmon, you low watt eastern twat.”
And where did I say otherwise? You are trying to argue that killing the bears along rivers where the salmon subpopulation is low will somehow affect the salmon. I said other bears will just move in right away. Try to keep up. Cool insult, I’m crushed.
“Yes, humans eat more salmon than bears.
But the bears eat the spawning salmon at the runs which keeps them from reproducing at the nadir of their life cycle, try to keep up will you?”
I hope you have a good excuse, like a past brain injury, or a birth defect. Eating salmon AT ANY STAGE keeps them from reproducing!! Most die after they spawn…so really the only salmon you can kill is one that hasn’t spawned. If someone dies when they’re 6 or when they’re 20, if they haven’t had a kid, they still die before reproducing. Get it? It’s the sort of thing that a 9 year old child would be expected to understand.
“What does “each” and “unique” mean?’
Wow, tough words..that second one is a real doozy…two syllables. Each refers to the subpopulations within the entire Fraser river sockeye salmon population. A subpopulation is a group of fish that were born in the same spawning grounds, and so they return there…unique from the rest of the subpopulations/whole population.
“Pretty specific when talking about salmon subgroups, eh?”
Ya, glossing over details doesn’t exactly encourage intelligent discussion.
“If true, then if should be easy to target the bears on those “unique” runs and shoot them as they come to kill the spawning salmon.
You shoot one group of bears, if another comes, if they come, you shoot them too.”
Wow…so what, we pay a bunch of ‘hunter’s’ to live by the river the entire spawning season and just shoot bears 24/7? Now for sure, this is 100% the stupidest suggestion I’ve heard to date on this site..and that’s saying a lot.
I hope to Christ you’re just having a laugh, joking around, otherwise I’ve lost a little more faith in the ability of my fellow human beings to rationalize.
BTJ >
Follow you around? You are a strange puppy, considering my posts have been first.
Not sure what your issue is with my posts, you wanted some attention, I’ve complied. Unfortunatly you have nothing to say of any value so people respond in kind.
It was a little impressive seeing you get off your lazy butt for this post and actually “try” and sound intelligent. That must have hurt reading all those wikipedia links on Salmon. He he.
Sorry for the private chuckle, we don’t want to derail your efforts, you may be taken seriously one day with enough practice, and be liked, which is something to strive for . Trust me.
“You are a strange puppy, considering my posts have been first.”
your posts are solely concerned with me and often don’t even approach the thread’s issue…common…I see right through it, you big tease.
“be liked, which is something to strive for . Trust me.”
Hmmm…sounds like somebody has a thing for the collective too…you’re a promiscuous one. You sound like a grade 1 teacher…teaching the students to just get along with everyone, just accept the collective as your way through life.
Now, do you have anything specific to say about my post? Any statement or link you’d like to discuss/debate? Or are you just interested in flirting away, making silly remarks and giggling like a school girl about it?
My university class had a course which consists of taking a real, existing mining project and preparing a pre-feasibility for it. Our project was at a historically high producing underground gold property. During the site reconnaissance we talked with a number of the old-timers that had worked in the area years before (at the local bar, natch).
Late in the evening, one of the old-timers snorted into his beer “these environmentalists don’t know what they’re talking about. A cyanide pond let loose in the 30’s, killed everything in the river for the next 5 years. It took 30 years before the runs recovered, now you couldn’t find a trace of it if you looked for it. Nature is strong. A lot stronger than those city folks will ever be.”
Anecdotal, yes. Stories like this are why I listen to those who are older and smarter than me. Funny thing, those who are smarter than me (by my way of looking at things) and never those who say that they’re smarter than me. They tend to be the ones who know what they’re talking about because they’ve lived it, not studied it.
Well I am on my way to my favorite fraser bar in about an hour or so.
This is the best chance to catch sockeye in years.
No opeanings last year for sporties,and just 4 days the year before.
Most bars with easy access are a gong show but that is as much fun as the fishing.Shoulder to shoulder and tangled lines,to much fun.
I see they have updated the run size again to over 30 million.this should allow us to reap the benifits for at least a couple of more weeks.
Two per day per person.
tight lines all
PGSSweeny,
Envy that. Just took a short vacation around the Clearwater area a month ago. Caught a beautiful Bull Trout around +15 Lbs. Great fishing, pricey for 8 day out of Provence license for 2 was +$80.00 but definetly worth it at the end of the day.
Stream/ river fishing with single barbless hook was a little over the top though.
Yes beautiful area around Clearwater.
My yearly liscense for fresh water was $57. including salmon tag.It is extra for stealhead and other species but if you fish it is worth it.
Single barbless everywhere in B.C. even in the saltwater, you lose some fish but proper hook setting holds up .Sockeye fishing definatly is not sporting though,almost a snag fishery,using super long leaders and hauling your fish onto the beach.They sure are the best salmon to eat though.