[BCAA spokesman Trace Acres] said a Honda Civic hybrid cost only $290 more to operate over five years compared to its gas equivalent, whereas the Toyota Prius cost $1,718 more to operate than its gas equivalent, the Toyota Matrix. Over a five-year period, the cost to own and operate a Honda Insight was $38,326, a Toyota Prius cost $40,324 and the Honda Civic Hybrid cost $42,664.
Still, signs of progress. One model (out of 16 tested] has been found to produce actual cost savings over its gasoline powered equivalent!
The [Mercedes-Benz S400] cost $145,262 to buy and drive over five years, compared to the S450 gasoline model, which cost $150,622.
Because they sell it for less.
Now that this has come to their attention the Greenie Govs. will raise the taxes on gasoline even higher.
I am in the ‘Green’ industry, not because I believe the world is coming to an end, but for several other reasons. Some of the things that people get excited about make no sense at all. 12 – 20 year paybacks after incentives. In many cases, the equipment is only expected to last 5 – 10 years.
There are real solutions out there. Marrying them to the right construction technology is the key. If the ‘solution’ does not make sense in dollar terms, it’s not really a solution.
I’m sure the rare metals in the batteries all came from recycling too…
The advent of hybrid, is probably the worst thing to happen to the environment since the Dodge Charger 440 six pack running on leaded fuel. Not that I’m against a sexy big block muscle car or anything. Just saying.
Soooo, the only reason they buy hybrids is to starve the earth’s food producing plants even more. Meanies !!
Give a plant or a tree a huge today. Their food is carbon dioxide.
They are trying to survive on a diet of only 0.038% CO2.
If the meanies could, they would reduce it to, .. what? I hope not below 0.02% !! Because the poor plants would die. And so would we!
On the other hand, food producing greenhouses artificially raise CO2 concentrations many fold.
And in the past, our atmosphere has been many, many times higher in CO2 with absolutely no detrimental effects.
And …. oh, forget it. I know, I know. The $Billions and $Billions wasted on climate alarmism is not about the environment or economics. It is about the Ruling Elite;
http://spectator.org/archives/2010/07/16/americas-ruling-class-and-the/print
Cost difference between gas and hybrid versions=price of obtaining a green status symbol=stupidity tax
Only a completely accounting challenged person can buy new vehicles.
Hybrids are nothing but an identification badge for left wing pinkos who have drunk Al Gore’s KoolAid. It’s their version of a status symbol.
But there is hypocrisy behind this as always – I’ve seen many a hybrid parked in the garage of 5000 sq. foot homes.
Or take the Google boys who brag about driving hybrids – on their way to the airport to fly in their private jet.
Well there are days when I question my utility of a motorcycle—–limited cargo—-inclement weather….
Insurance is pricier than a car unless you are an old foggy like myself….initial capital cost is the major advantage—-fuel savings are overwhelmed by short life expensive tires…no kidding…..
Then there is the perception that a motorcycle in Canada is a warm weather recreation vehicle….or the vehicle of choice of a criminal element.
Diesel make economic sense with agricultural, but then most of this stuff is either high hours/year or has a service life of 30 years.
Diesel in a pickup is marginally economic and totally stupid in a car.
Diesel lawn and garden stuff—-limited to high hours such as golf course or municipalities.
This hybrid stuff is an impractical technology. Otherwise there would be hybred big-rigs…..
It just occured to me—-I shall google hybred motorcycles—-then diesel motorcycles—I do stuff like that………
There is I think about 23 kgs of rare earth elements in a battery car. China pretty much controls the market and they are showing signs they don’t want to play. Costs aren’t going down.
http://www.nytimes.com/2009/09/01/business/global/01minerals.html
Sasquatch says, “Diesel in a pickup is marginally economic and totally stupid in a car.”
I disagree! I bought a 17-year-old Mercedes diesel car seven years ago and it’s still my daily driver. I get 36 mpg on the highway and diesel is 10 cents per litre cheaper than regular gas where I live. I get close to 600 miles on a tankfull and generally fill up once per month. I’ve put 82,000 miles on a car with virtually no depreciation – take that Prius!
Why did they compare the Prius to the Matrix? The Prius is slightly larger and heavier. They could have compared the Camry and the Camry Hybrid, which are basically the same cars except for the drivetrain. The gas Camry uses 7.7L/100 km; the Hybrid uses 5.7. The Hybrid costs $6,000 more than the gas model if you compare list prices. But since there’s a $3,000 incentive on the Hybrid, and only $1,000 on the gas model, the difference is only $4,000 (+tax, of course). If you’re driving 20,000 miles a year (32,000 km) – which is only 55 miles a day, so any one with a 27 mile commute and a few vacation trips will easily rack that up – you get a payback in 6 years IF gas stays at $1/L. If gas goes up to say $1.50/L, you get a payback in just over 4 years.
Also note that the 7.7L figure for the gas model is a combined figure; if you drive mostly in the city, the figure is much higher, whereas the Hybrid’s consumption is the same, city or highway. And in Toronto, driving on the highway in rush hour is pretty much stop and go. So, using the gas model’s 9.0L (and that’s the base model; the more expensive versions are even worse), even if gas stays at $1/L you still get a payback in just under four years; if the price goes up, it’s even faster.
It doesn’t make sense for someone in Saskatchewan with a ten minute commute to get a hybrid. But for people in the GTA who have to sit idling in our interminable traffic, they can make economic sense, especially if gas prices rise. Also, the comment that cars only last five years is ridiculous; the average age of cars has been going up for the last ten years, and is now almost 8 years. Cars are much better made now than they were 20 years ago, and there’s not really a need to trade up every three years.
So, if you believe gas prices will go up, you drive a fair amount, and you’re in a big city with terrible traffic, hybrids can make economic sense. If none of those conditions apply, don’t buy one.
Awake Deniers!
No one gets rich if science and common sense are applied to “green”.
C’mon. Give it up, Gore and Suzuki could use more homes and cars and chartered air travel.
Or you could drop ten grand on a Hyundai Accent and get 50 mpg on regular pump gas.
Oh Gore!
Won’t you buy me
A Mercedes-Benz?
My friends all drive guzzlers,
I must make amends!
A Prius costs big dollars
But since I follow the trends,
Oh Gore, won’t you buy a me
A cheap hybrid Benz?
Heater, an essential thing in Canada – does it require the gas engine to start even if the battery is charged?
Black Mamba Now that brought a smile.
But at the end of five years, your hybrid may well need a new 8000 dollar battery bank, while your regular gas car will need just another oil change. Factor that in okay?
When I see a prius or some other hybrid, I think that the driver is a frightened do-gooder sheep who thinks he is saving the planet for us ingrates.
Childish? To say the least.
Where do the dead batteries go?
Fools and their money are soon parted …but not soon enough.
Re: Fools and their money –
Next time you chat with your urban liberal friends, remind them of the fact that the Afghan war will rage on because we need Lithium for carbon foot print reduction (Green cars).
Yes that’s right, the “capitalist imperialism” that invaded 3rd world nations for oil wealth now is on raiding parties for Lithium to make batteries for green cars, iPads, ipods, Iphones and other DC cell driven counter AGW products.
Capitalist imperialism rages on so urban yuppies can have their climate friendly green, text messaging and social E-group toys.
http://www.nytimes.com/2010/06/14/world/asia/14minerals.html
http://www.scientificamerican.com/article.cfm?id=lithium-air-electric-car-battery
Hey, it’s all about feeling good about environmentalism, right? Let the fools part with their money.
With five in my clan, I’ll drive my 3.5L V6 Honda Odyssey, thank you very much.
sasquatch
I remember when Propane was the savior. Trudeau even gave money to have the systems almost paid for by other Canadians of course. To install the conversion in the late 70s during that man made oil crisis like this one. Who says history does not repeat itself? Electric died to fast to be useful with batteries a small disaster waiting to happen. Than natural gas ended up with whiskey dick. Now its Diesel. Another fantasy bites the dust. Nothing wrong with going as green as you can profitably. Its when you force others to be as well. Not only that, but ignoring the realities of the fact we will be on an oil eating society for a while. That a transition period is inevitable as it was from horse to engine.
Oh yeah every 10 years since the 70’s we’ve been just a few years away from Fusion power. Yet another dream.
JMO
Thanks Speedy 🙂
When the concept of ‘TCO’ called, KevinB was not at home.
“Or you could drop ten grand on a Hyundai Accent and get 50 mpg on regular pump gas.”
Hell ya…my wife has one, picked up a barely driven 2007 in the US for around 3000, gets amazing gas mileage and is fun to drive.
“Sasquatch says, “Diesel in a pickup is marginally economic and totally stupid in a car.”
I disagree! ”
I second your disagreement…it was a brainless comment.
It’s high time for electric vehicles period. Electic vehicles eliminates virtually all maintenance costs associated with the combustion engine. Tesla makes some pretty impressive models..the roadster goes 0-60 in 3.7 seconds with 245 miles per charge…the model S goes 0-60 in 5.6 seconds with 300 miles per charge.
Aviator
I was amortizing by new price.
Those Ford Diesel imports were a similar bargoon…I know at least one associate who acquired such a beast and when the vehicle body collapsed over top then found a newer gaser—-drove it until it died then did the switchero. He had some grief from the emmisions tribe but….he was handy…
Where does the heater get it’s heat?
“Sasquatch says, “Diesel in a pickup is marginally economic and totally stupid in a car.”
Partly true. Diesel in a pickup is good if you use it in an industrial application where you put on lots of mileage per year, such as logging. For the average person there’s no savings advantage to diesel in something big like an F300.
However the Volkswagon Jetta diesel gets great mileage (I’ve heard 50+ mpg from friends who have them) and is likely to produce a savings over the lifetime of the car.
BTJ – “It’s high time for electric vehicles period. Electic vehicles eliminates virtually all maintenance costs associated with the combustion engine. Tesla makes some pretty impressive models..the roadster goes 0-60 in 3.7 seconds with 245 miles per charge…the model S goes 0-60 in 5.6 seconds with 300 miles per charge.”
Tesla is a nice little testosterone booster sports car for mid-life crisis men, but it costs around $125,000 and the company still can’t make money at that price. It’s totally useless as a practical form of transportation for the average person. Electric cars are all well and fine for limited urban driving but if you want to do more than that you need a second vehicle. Not a cost savings that way. I wouldn’t mind having one but that’s an expense I can’t justify. Someday the electric car might come into its own, but not yet. Besides, where you going to get all the extra electricity? Wind farms (bird cuisinarts) everywhere? Solar farms covering vast acreages? Damn all the remaining rivers and creeks? Nuclear plants in every city and town? That must be taken into consideration.
At the present time, gasoline/diesel is still the most practical fuel.
“Electric cars are all well and fine for limited urban driving but if you want to do more than that you need a second vehicle”
The tesla model S gets 300 miles to the charge…how many people do you know need to drive more than 300 miles at a time?
” Someday the electric car might come into its own, but not yet.”
Sure, with oil and gas in bed with government, receiving huge subsidies, etc. It should have been here by now if not for outside barriers.
” Besides, where you going to get all the extra electricity? Wind farms (bird cuisinarts) everywhere? Solar farms covering vast acreages? Damn all the remaining rivers and creeks? Nuclear plants in every city and town?”
How about all of the above? Wind farms where they make sense, solar where it makes sense, nuclear needs to be expanded and there are lots of rivers with potential for energy production without much impact to the natural system.
“Quem Deus vult perdire prius dementat”–Euripides
[The Prius makes crazy he whom God would destroy.]
Wedding cars
http://www.google.ca/#hl=en&rlz=1R2ADSA_enCA361&q=wedding+luxury+car+rental+canada&aq=&aqi=&aql=&oq=&gs_rfai=&fp=333998ada31231ec
http://www.google.ca/#hl=en&source=hp&q=beautiful+wedding+ceremonies&rlz=1R2ADSA_enCA361&aq=1&aqi=g5g-m1&aql=&oq=beautiful+wedding+cer&gs_rfai=&fp=333998ada31231ec
http://www.google.ca/#hl=en&rlz=1R2ADSA_enCA361&q=beautiful+iraninan+wedding+ceremonies&aq=&aqi=&aql=&oq=&gs_rfai=&fp=333998ada31231ec
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KAXuD3TYy0k
http://www.google.ca/#hl=en&rlz=1R2ADSA_enCA361&q=beautiful+muslim+wedding+ceremonies&aq=&aqi=&aql=&oq=&gs_rfai=&fp=333998ada31231ec
I don’t think you can even begin to compare a Prius to a Matrix.
“But at the end of five years, your hybrid may well need a new 8000 dollar battery bank, while your regular gas car will need just another oil change. Factor that in okay?”
There are many factors, not just those. My grandpa owns one of the first prius’ sold in Manitoba. I think it is a 2001 model. He hasn’t had a single problem with it other than the small battery died on him one time.
The battery bank is still fine, and it sure doesn’t cost anywhere near $8000. If you really want to factor in everything, factor in brakes where a regular car gets about 50,000 kms on brakes, a Prius can go 5X as far easily, due to the regenerative braking.
Starters and alternators? A Prius doesn’t have them. It uses one of the two electric motors (that generally don’t wear out) for those functions.
Depreciation should also be factored in, as well as any tax breaks from the government.
bjt said: “…Wind farms where they make sense, solar where it makes sense…”
Solar doesn’t make sense in Sun Valley Arizona. The only place it does make sense is in orbit. Wind power makes sense if you want to pump water, its completely worthless as a method for generating electricity -except- for remote locations as a battery charger. There will be no more nuclear capacity built until a massive revolution kills off or disempowers all the tree huggers and NIMBYs keeping everything in court forever.
The Tesla is a Lotus with all the good stuff ripped out and heavy batteries shoved in, created for wealthy Hollyweird types with more money than brains. The regular dinosaur fuel Lotus can eat the Tesla version for lunch.
The Tesla gets 300 miles per charge… when the batteries are new. Not so much as they age and have to be replaced.
Electric cars move pollution from the car exhaust pipe to the smoke stack of the coal generating station, plus they add massive inefficiency.
Buy a Smart Car. It’ll cost ‘way more than its worth, but you’ll feel all moral and superior while you risk your life on the highway. Doubt you’ll be able to save the price difference between that and a used Camry in gas, but feeling superior is its own reward.
Until you pull out in front of a UPS van, anyway. But our wonderful OHIP program will stitch you back together so its all good.
Electric cars do nothing more than move the location of the fuel burn from the car to the power plant.
The only viable “renewable” power generation system is hydro and we have about tapped out all the reasonable sources in the western world. You want electric cars to be viable and pollution free then Canada alone needs about 30 to 35 nuclear plants and a rebuilt and much more robust power grid. And that does not even begin to cover the battery issues.
It does not matter what it costs …. it makes you a better person than every one who does not drive one.
The Tesla recharger is 2K, if you plug in to 110 instead of 220 it takes 4 times as long to charge. Some places have the chargers and do a pretty good business because you ain’t going anywhere soon.
Prius is the new Volvo for the academic class, to the detriment of the Swedish economy. Though maybe they have room in their huge garages for both.
BTJ – a ‘river with energy production’ and no effect on the natural environment? Don’t you know that rivers, all by themselves, don’t create energy. It requires a massive reconstruction of the natural environment, a flooding, a clear-cutting – to divert the river and create a dam.
How many people drive 300 miles at one time? A lot of people drive 480 km. That’s the distance between Toronto and Ottawa. Some people do that once a week.
And – all that these electric cars do, is switch the energy domain from the individual car to the Energy-Plant.
I want a Hummer with a miniature nuclear power plant under the hood, to save the environment of course.
That would be a status symbol even the Gore monster could appreciate.
“Diesel in a pickup is marginally economic and totally stupid in a car.”
Total Bullfudge.
My diesel powered Toyota Utility Vehicle gets 25MPG US, and with biodiesel added to the diesel fuel the emissions are as clean as any new gasoline powered car.
The new VW Jetta automobile with a 140-horsepower TDI Clean Diesel engine and fuel economy of 4.6 l/100 km [52 MPG US]on the highway, makes the it one of the most fuel-efficient vehicles on the market. The energy savings payback is better than a hybrid, and the grams of pollution per kilometer is as good or less than most gasoline automobiles.
I remember when the taxis switched to propane. You always kept a few gallons of gas in the tank because if you ran out you’d have to go miles for a refill on propane. Most gutless fuel until you got it up into at least 2nd gear. What a waste of money.
ahhh, yah, if only
wish some in here would grow some technical savy
http://www.mdi.lu/english/
Bah
A fatal ‘accident’ occurred recently not very far away, the loser being a sardine can on wheels. But on the bright side, the mileage it got was probably fantastic!
What’s with these people who’d even venture out on a freeway or busy highway, with all the protection of a go-cart, all for the saving of a few bucks, or maybe more sadly, some perverted view that they’re really, really making a difference? It sure was worth it, huh?
Me, I’ll take my F-150, and should we have the misfortune somewhere to meet unexpectedly and decisively….I WIN!! (You lose).
‘Bah’- That dorkmobile, would never, ever be mistaken for a chickmobile!
Snagglepuss that fartin wonder is a chick magnet.
2 years ago I was seriously researching hybrids as where I live has lots of hills and it bothers me when all I do with the gravitational potential energy my vehicle has is to heat my brakes when going downhill.
What I found out is that current battery technology is just way too primitive for me to spend my money on now. If I had a couple of hundred thousand to spare I could buy a hybrid Escape for running around town in and a conventionally fueled Expedition for long trips.
The problem is energy density and until batteries have greater energy density than gasoline, they are impractical. Also, regenerative braking as it currently exists can only tap a fraction of the energy one gets coasting downhill due to the low maximum charge rates of the batteries. Maybe once ultracapacitors have energy storage capacity equivalent to a tank of gasoline they can soak up all that power one now wastes going downhill.
I was disappointed because my hobby is electronics and I tend to buy anything electronic that’s new. I’ve been thinking of electric cars for decades and I had to reluctantly decide that now just isn’t the time. Instead I bought a used Grand Cherokee for $3500 and it’s served me very well.
Black Mamba, now you’ve got Janice Joplin’s original song running through my head (too bad she’s no longer around to do your version). Just recalled that I saw her do Lord won’t you buy me a Mercedes Benz in Calgary in 1970. That was 40 years ago and suddenly I feel old.
Dana: A chick magnet maybe, for the likes of Lizzie May, but more likely a crow magnet. That I can see.
“How about all of the above? Wind farms where they make sense, solar where it makes sense, nuclear needs to be expanded and there are lots of rivers with potential for energy production without much impact to the natural system.”
Smart people have been saying that for the past 50 years or so. Unfortunately the ‘do it cheapest in the short term’ metric doesn’t always yield the best long term solutions for energy independence.
The amount of money that’s been wasted in Iraq and Afghanistan could have blanketed roofs all across America’s sun belt with enough PV solar to equal the energy of the mid east oil they need the military for to secure. The amount of Mid East oil imports also equals the amount of oil used by the US military.
There’s no lack of appropriate technology, what’s missing is the public will to make it happen. It’s always easier to whip-up wars to motivate people.
The range of the vehicle is only one part of the equation. How long does it take to recharge the battery is also important. If the battery is good for six hours and it takes six hours to recharge the battery an eight hour drive would take 14 hours.
In the busy food warehouses they use electric fork trucks and because it takes hours to recharge the batteries they have quick change batteries. The truck comes up to a small conveyor upon which the battery is rolled out of the truck, the truck is jumpered ahead a few feet and a fully charged battery is rolled into the truck. In a matter of minutes the fork truck has a refilled fuel tank.