“Should my fellow Canadian soldiers continue to bleed and die in Afghanistan on a mission that not one of our political parties is willing to fight – let alone lose – an election over?”
“Should my fellow Canadian soldiers continue to bleed and die in Afghanistan on a mission that not one of our political parties is willing to fight – let alone lose – an election over?”
There are some fantastic points made in that post.
I believe the soldier feels despondent and who can blame him? He is far away from his home and all he gets for his sacrifices are doubts and even condescension. Yes, war is a bloody business and we should not shy away from the hard facts. Likewise, we should be proud of the successes and inroads made thanks to the thoughtfulness and selflessness of some truly fantastic people.
Further, promises have been made, promises Canada cannot afford to break if it wishes prominence on the world stage (a mercenary view, I know).
And this paragraph from the post couldn’t be said better:
“Not only does this line of complaint reek of the callousness, stinginess, and arrogance that has characterized wealthy western nations’ relations with developing nations over the years, it’s also astoundingly short-sighted. We’ve tried ignoring Afghanistan, and it became a haven for our enemies. If protecting our most vital national interest – namely the physical security of the Canadian people – isn’t worth our investment, then what precisely is?”
Just my thoughts.
A few of my son’s young friends (early 20’s) are with the military, and to them it is not only about Afganistan, it is about propecting the freedoms we hold so dear, and to prevent our having to fight for them on our own soil. One of them said he wished that more Canadians understood that perspective, maybe they would be more supportive of their sacrifices. They truly beleive they are doing the right thing, how can we argue with that?
Thanks Cody, Kyle and Brad. Stay safe.
Amen brother. Those who wear the uniform do their duty as expected of them. Gripping and grumbling are allowed and indeed expected but the bottom line is to do their duty and serve. This is entirely different than say most politicians and those of the MSM who’s decisions (or in-decisions) and views are constantly changing as the polls or meme of the day.
My days of uniform are long past but I salute those who take up the colours for Canadians and Canada.
When any government sends our men and women to fight in a far off land it’s a bit late for any of them to express any opposition or second guess that decision.
Chretien committed troops without a vote in the House because he had a majority. A vote in the House may have resulted in the same outcome but it seems the right thing to do when it comes to sending soldiers off to war. It may also have put an end to dispute.
Just imagine fighting in the dangerous environment that is Afghanistan while politicians at home are wrangling over whether you should be there.
Shudder to think where we’d be today if our forefathers had the attitude of some of our politicians today.
and you can thank Turdeau for being where we are at.
I feel for our soldiers, and I see little point in continuing the Afghan mission.
When does it end? No one seems to have a good answer to that question. We have been there for years, and it is not unreasonable at this point to expect that our government would have some idea, some plan, some strategy, as to what the end game is.
The fact that the government cannot articulate how to wrap up the project suggests it will drag on forever.
It is not really a question of staying. We cannot, the Army is broken, exhausted and it must rest. We can keep the 1000 or so support troops but 2500 combat troops is no longer sustainable. That is the reality.
We should stay, but we can’t and we can thank Trudeau, Mulroney, Chretian, and nearly every other Prime minister since the Korean War.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j4c8RupRuQs
Some times words fail me.
TJ, those working in Afghanistan do have “some idea, some plan, some strategy, as to what the end game is.” Writ large, it’s called VICTORY. On a slightly more detailed level, the idea is to set the Afghans up to manage their own affairs as responsible members of the international community (esp. not a haven for terrorists) without us.
You can find the Government’s six priorities in Afghanistan at this website.
There’s a plan in place. What’s lacking is the political and popular will to see it through.
Fred,
You can blame others all you want, but it is more our fault for letting ourselves to be led down the garden path. I think we “conservatives” need to do a better job in defining ourselves and convincing others through reason why our path would be better.
And therefore, Kate, I salute you.
On this topic, I support the troops and their mission. My hope is that Afghanistan can be made a better place through our efforts. I wish the government and powers that be could do a better job explaining the mission to the cattle.
Good thing that there were not more of those that think like TJ in 1939. Turdeau just accelerated the emasculation of the military. We allowed him to do so. I salute the current serving members.
Non Nobis, Sed Patriae
Personally the hardest thing to swallow is the apathy of Canadians as a whole. Reviewing the attitudes of the civillian population in past wars, I know its nothing new, yet still, there it is.
We are here because our government, and by extension, Canadians, sent us here. Further to that, many serving in Afghanistan have joined since 2002, with the express intent of serving in this theater. The out-pouring of suppurt is like nothing Canada has seen for decades, although in my mind the fact that its almost always centered around the return of the fallen seems a little off the mark.
We will mourn the fallen, but what of cheering for victory? Where is the heated debate about a winning strategy, among our politicians, or others? Where is that Churchill-ian spirit?
“You ask, what is our aim? I can answer in one word: It is victory, victory at all costs, victory in spite of all terror, victory, however long and hard the road may be…”
You might respond that the greatest generation was fighting for their very survival, while Afghanistan is a side-show. To that I would respond, why go at all unless you intend to win? Believe me when I say Canadian soldiers will take ANYTHING you can thrown at them, and see through what is required.
To get back on track here; about the apathy of Canadians. Few I’ve talked to are interested in the gritty details of what goes on here, and most only offer the vaguest of sentiments, “it must be rough”, that sort of thing. To paraphrase a great piece recently written by a British embed, ‘their (those at home) eyes glaze over after 2 minutes of hearing about the war, and they quickly change the subject’.
How many Canadians know what PRT or OMLT stand for, or care what those organizations do? Whats the difference between Zhari and Spin Boldak districts? Hell, how many Canadians could point out Khandahar province on an unmarked map?
The fact is, our society is largely apathetic about the whole thing, and this worries me greatly.
Screw you Ken. My uncle fought in WWII, and suffered terribly from it, and I was very proud of him, even as a young kid.
Our family lost dear friends who died in wars in Africa against communist pigs. And some who were injured to bits by land mines. I cannot begin to imagine the courage it took. I admired them for what they did.
So go to hell with your silly little extrapolation, pulled right of your rear, that my comment in some way suggests I would have been against the fight in WWII.
I will note too that having grown up in Africa and having seen how nasty unconventional warfare can be, my hunch is that Afghanistan will only ever be stable as long as there is a large permanent military presence there. As such it is not really a war per se, and the government should be honest with people as to what lies ahead.
“Forward! he cried from the rear, and the front rank died.”
I have a nephew(cpl.), a cousin(cpl.), a niece(left.) and her husband(capt.) who serve. My brother, sister and my aunt sleep much better when they are at home. In fact when my cousin returned from his latest mission, the first thing his mother did upon hearing that they had landed in Canada, was to go to bed and sleep for twelve hours!
My brother wishes his son would become a welder. He may yet as this will station him close to home. (BTW ladies he is thirty-seven, very handsome, intelligent, kind hearted and thanks to a two timing wife now single.) My niece loves the forces and plans a life long commintment. Her husband may or may not.
Canadian forces have been doing a lot of the heavy lifting, more than our share. Our allies, for the most part are tepid. I will give credit where credit is due. Thank-you to those brave men and women who share the risk, rather than opt for latrine guard duty. You know who you are and you have our deepest gratitude.
Many will say that our brave men and women are there because of duty and honor and you would not be wrong, but as many are there for the extra pay as well.
There is no plan for Afghanistan’s future and if one is not developed soon I see little point in remaining. My family will be overjoyed when the 2011 deadline is here.
I am sorry if this upsets a few of the posters here, but that is just the way we feel.
Damien,
I’ve neither read your hyperlink nor read the posts…
My answer, to the question is, …..NO NO NO NO !
Cheers
There is not a one of us who ever signed up with visions of great political leadership.
We all had our reasons for signing on the dotted line and taking that oath or making that affrimation. Chief amoung them was service. Not to the government of the day but to a country we knew we was something special. A country deserving of service and sacrifice.
Garry: How rational and mis-spelled.
Mark
Ottawa
Mark Ottawa…not THE MARK from OTTAWA ?? (did I spell marrk rong ??
I have always been a supporter of OUR TROOPS ANYWHERE! While not comparable..joined the BROCKVILLE RIFLES the summer I turned 16…
The question was…(actually 2 parts…
What was (were) the question(s) mark from (where?).
BTW Mark (?)…both answers are the same…
gawd furbid if Canadian involvement of any kind overseas hinged on commitment from ottawa.
ottawa is like a dipsy fickle blonde flake with the attention span of a butterfly.
on the other hand, I haven’t got a clear answer yet what a Canuckistan armed forces private is supposed to do if a high ranking officer orders them to commit a war crime.
disobey and get court marshalled and drummed out of the service or comply and wind up on the 11 o’clock news.
it’s already happened. don’t forget somalia and the airborne.
Slightly off topic but I think most soldiers don’t give a shite about the politics. I think they serve for the soldier next to them that they depend on and in turn are dependent on them. At the link you will see a real babe. Once you are past that read the item.
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1210676/Hero-medic-shrapnel-ignores-pain-help-save-SEVEN-fellow-soldiers.html
Saving Pashtun women from Pashtun men is a noble idea, but can the army do it? My experience with muslim women is they are complicit in subjugating, perhaps not themselves, but certainly the other women in their society. I’m all for whacking douchebags, but can we save these women by killing men some of them admire?
(Disclaimer, I support the war mostly because I want to go, not because I think douchebagistan is worth the effort. I can’t effectively save the kids in East Africa either.)
To the point of the post…
Our civilian leaders are a disgrace when it comes to the matter. Words do not suffice.
Relevant post at “The Torch”:
“Afstan and Canadian political attitudes”
Mark
Ottawa
Yeah well I recall when the obamanite of the 60’s were protesting in the steets about the poor abused freedom fighters which were in reality foreign invaders…..those protestors grew up and dominate the schools, the media and the US Government.
For many years me and mine were ridiculed for seeing “Reds under the beds” then in the early 90’s the Berlin Wall was destroyed and we had access to the KGB files and guess what—there really were “Reds under the beds”…..who now operate the MSM and suppressed this inconvenient truth.
The Taliban never fought any Russians but invaded Afghanistan from Pakistan after the Russians left.
Pakistan is a 3rd world hell hole little more prosperous than Afghanistan….compared to the economic success of India….
When we buy ME oil we are financing our own enemies…..build nuclear power and “Drill Baby Drill….”….Oh yeah round up the ecofreaks and put them to work in the bush cutting pulp wood.
No Canadian should fight and die to preserve Islamic Extremism Light. “Freedom and justice for all” should be a cornerstone of any government our country undertakes to defend.
The Afghan government is slipping back into the familar oppressive patterns with “Peace in our lifetime” deals with Talibani warlords being signed in places where Canadian blood mixed with roadside dust.
I can’t support a war that wins nothing for common citizen. Afghans need something worth fighting and dying for too – a Constitution guaranteeing rights and freedoms is the shining beacon that would point to where we will find victory and give our terrible sacrifice meaning. Anything less is a shifting sand dune in the wind of a persistent and brutal enemy.
Our presence in Afghanistan is pointless now. We need to get out ASAP. This is now Obama’s war and he has stated that he doesn’t believe in Victory. Since the Jihadis won’t settle for a tie, we will eventually cut and run.
Remember this old Roman saying.
“After a thousand mile journey you are about to engage your enemy in war.
Q:What is the one thing you must be certain of?
That the journey was your enemy’s.
That point too, may be why we can’t win.
The insurgents will never stop coming, there is no shortage of them …. like the Terminator, “That’s all they do”. They have no other life.
The British couldn’t win the American revolution because the Americans did what the Taliban do, they hide among the population and shoot from trees and caves at the line of red coats marching along the road.
Forget it and you will repeat it.
This view ignores comprehensive opinion polls conducted by the Asia Foundation over the past few years consistently showing a clear majority of Afghans support the international mission in their country
Comprehensive opinion polls?
A majority of Afghans?
Please.
A majority of Afghans are Pashtuns, a majority of Afghans live in walled Hamlets with no electricity or phone service, a majority of Afghans couldn’t possibly have been asked or replied.
No this isn’t like Canadians responding to a European Germany invading bordering European nations in WWII.
This is Canada responding to it’s NATO commitment.
Canada responded to it’s NATO commitment in the Balkans and that wasn’t a good thing.
When this war in Afghanistan is over for Canada it isn’t going to look like what the end of the war in Europe.
What is victory in Afghanistan supposed to look like?
Afghanistan is an Islamic Republic.
Afghanistan isn’t going to look any different or be any different when Canada leaves than when Canada entered.
There are more terrorist training camps in Pakistan than there ever were in Afghanistan.
Being involved in NORAD and the Tripartite Treaty with the U.S. and the U.K. are enough to serve Canada’s interests.
Canada should get out of Afghanistan and out of NATO.
sarge here this oz fellow is makin too much sense it is time for the kate-ites to descend upon his neck with glee screaching like winged monkey. to be in nato fighting in afganistan for th unical pipline and to secure the gateway to central asia is to lay bare the fact that canada is the united states butt boy and the traitor kate here to help seal canadas fate by gettin the nuttiest rabble of the land to help canada into the final fall into slavery
Oz, feel free to read the methodology of the survey. 543 field interviewers went out and asked questions of 6593 Afghans in all 34 provinces of the country. It’s as good a look at Afghan attitudes as you’re going to get, and a fair sight better than some of the polls you’ll see in Canada – especially when it comes to sample size.
A clear majority of Afghans want us there. It’s an open question as to how much that matters – to either us or to the insurgents.
The soldier’s question is legitimate. The military may be following the orders of the Government of Canada, but if the politicians would change their point of view on the war just to win an election, then they are playing with the lives of the men and women in the military and that is B.S.
It’s as good a look at Afghan attitudes as you’re going to get, and a fair sight better than some of the polls you’ll see in Canada – especially when it comes to sample size.
A clear majority of Afghans want us there.
~Damian
I claim BS.
The methodology that they claim matters not an iota.
It’s a war.
The people who issued the survey conquered the country in 2 weeks.
What are the Afghans going to say to their conquerors, “No! you filthy infidel Kaffirs suck donkey and we want you sons of pigs and monkeys to leave immediately!”???
Sure, our governments would totally tell us if the majority of Afghans said that and then they’d just pull the troops out and go home.
Right? Right?
NOT.
Why?
Because then our occupation of Afghanistan would be stripped of any moral fig-leaf that our governments have for continuing to be there.
What does matter is the fact that the Northern Alliance had only 5% of Afghanistan before NATO invaded, and that the popular Taliban had 95%.
NATO put the Northern Alliance in government there.
If the Northern Alliance were popular they wouldn’t need us to put them in power.
When NATO invaded Afghanistan, every Afghan household was armed to the teeth and the Afghan masses are just as good at fighting as the Taliban are, if they are armed as well, and they have the advantage of knowing who is Taliban and who isn’t.
What matters is that NATO claimed genocide by the Serbs in the Balkans and there wasn’t any and isn’t any evidence of it to this day.
What matters is that Gulf War I, led by NATO, had voters in NATO nations incensed at Saddam’s Republican Guard invading Kuwait and ripping the babies out of incubators in Kuwait City and it is now known to have never happened.
The amount of our tax money Canada gives Communist China annually in aid is a State Secret and you think the government of any NATO nation involved in Afghanistan is going to tell us we aren’t wanted there if we aren’t?
It wasn’t “the Surge” that was the beginning of success in Iraq.
The Iraqi people, the masses, got tired of the bloody violent Islamic fanatics in their midst and started to ID their enemy to the “Coalition” in Iraq and take up the fight themselves, whether they were in the Iraqi government forces or not.
The Afghans haven’t turned on the bloody Muslim fanatics in their midst.
That is the surest plainest real sign of support for the Taliban that anyone is going to get.
In Che’ Guevara’s book “Guerrilla Warfare”, he stated that the guerrilla must have popular support of the masses, that “the masses are the sea in which the guerrilla swims”.
That is the number one rule of guerrilla warfare, if the guerrilla has lost popular support, the war is over for the insurgents.
When the Taliban loses support of the Afghan population they will be finished, not a moment before, regardless of any bogus propaganda poll you have credulous faith in.
It’s a war of attrition because we don’t know who the enemy is and they still have the support of the people.
Nations like Canada can’t afford to fight wars of attrition unless it is for our own defence, which the Afghan War isn’t.
Two years ago, in 2007, a top ranking British NATO General said that we had until October of that year to vastly improve the quality of life for the average Afghan, buy their support off if you will, or the war would be unwinnable.
Joanne,
Being that a huge proportion of the Generals in HQ are now more politicized that ever before in our history (Generals McKenzie and Hillier would agree, I think), would that have any bearing on your thoughts?
I believe the situation, in Afghanistan, will certainly be an election issue….
History…you gotta love it. Once upon a time there was a great civilization called the Roman empire. After that there was the dark ages. What caused that mighty civilization to collapse and fade away? What caused that long period of decay and ignorance? The Romans just pooped out.
Methinks folks now are pooping out. I fervently thank those who are not pooping out.
I love history.
The Roman Empire fell because they gave citizenship to anyone who joined the Legions.
They were taught the Rome ways of war but were not assimilated into Roman culture.
That included people who hated the Romans like the Visigoths and the Vandals who eventually sacked Rome in 410 and again in 455AD.
Fast forward to 2001AD.
The Western civilizations are filling up with people who hate Western civilization but
are allowed to immigrate and become citizens.
Our soldiers, as invaders and as advisers, are teaching the militaries of these nations the Western way of war.
Are the troops in Afghanistan protecting us?
No.
They can’t protect us from our own governments who import immigrants from nations of people who hate us.
We aren’t assimilating immigrants anymore, we’re accommodating invaders who reject our culture and way of life and are building enclaves of their own failed cultures here in Canada.
It has been projected that Canada’s economy will lose 250,000 jobs this year.
The Canadian government’s immigration target is 300,000 new people and it is expected that Canada will get 265,000+ new immigrants, many of them from nations that hate our way of life and want to supplant it with their failed culture.
When the Taliban loses support of the Afghan population they will be finished, not a moment before, regardless of any bogus propaganda poll you have credulous faith in.
Oz, your cynicism is misplaced here. The fieldwork was done by Afghans, no matter who paid for the study. The fact that half those polled in the most volatile southwest region of the survey (the five most violent provinces, including Helmand, Kandahar, and Uruzgan) expressed opposition to the NATO/ISAF presence shows they weren’t afraid to talk. As far as a supposed conspiracy to tell us only the good news is concerned, why then would the polling data over the last three years be allowed to show a declining trend in popular support for both the Afghan government and foreign forces in the country, as it has?
Claim BS all you like: unlike you, I’m backing up my claims with some evidence.
I’m not saying the insurgency isn’t without support: it has the Pashtun majority in the country split right down the middle. And that’s certainly enough to sustain the Taliban right now.
But how much support is required to perpetuate an insurgency? Half the population? A third, a quarter, a tenth? Since when does a militant and fanatic minority have the right to rule? Especially when that rule has proven to threaten our security in N. America?
We tried ignoring Afghanistan. It didn’t work out very well. Now we’re trying another way. Sometimes the choices you have aren’t between good and bad, they’re between bad and worse. I say leaving Afghanistan to continue to fail is the worse option.
I’ll put aside the argument of the method of your study.
It’s irrelevant.
The people of Afghanistan don’t even know what a poll is.
Afghanistan doesn’t have any infrastructure to speak of and isn’t even a real country or nation, it’s just a place on a map.
It’s a wasteland of a hub where the surrounding nations have declined, over thousands of years, to extend their rule because the place isn’t worth the effort.
Someone should tell the Taliban that they’re going about winning this thing the wrong way.
Damian thinks that all they have to do to win is convince some pollsters that the majority of Afghan people want the IFOR to leave and NATO will just pack up and go home.
Especially when that rule has proven to threaten our security in N. America?
~Damian
The people of Muslim nations aren’t a threat to us when they stay in their own 3rd world toilets and do whatever they want.
They are only a threat when our government lets them come over here.
Our soldiers over there aren’t making us safe.
I say let Afghanistan continue to fail because, as an Islamic Republic, they are set up to fail.
The lie that Islam is a religion of peace is the epitome and the starting point of failure.
Do you, Damian, comprehend what it means for Afghanistan to be an Islamic Republic?
It means that all of the laws not only are based on the Koran, but that imams or ayatollahs are writing them, applying them, and judging them in the courts.
All the schools are going to be religious schools, madrasas, whether we insist that girls go there or not, and one day all the seats in the Afghan parliament are going to be filled with Taliban types, if not the Taliban itself, so pretending otherwise is foolish because Afghanistan and Iraq are Islamic Republics, just like Iran.
Oz,
Well said! All your posts carry excellent, thought-out comments. Still figuring out if Damian understands that Islam is a way of life…not a religion as he continues to apply western/democratic thought (to your ‘misplaced cynicism’) that this “poll” has any bearing on overall reality and part of any solution to this quagmire.
I support the troops (where-ever they are) and realize that, on the whole (I believe), they feel they are there for a good reason. Anyone who picks up a rifle and puts his a** in the front trenches and in harm’s way has to be respected and supported!! But it is what they do. It is time to pull out, waste no more soldiers lives and let this backward culture quit using us as suckers. Our candy-assed politicians should be issued kit and choppered into a “hot LZ”. They would be outta there quicker than you could say “boob rae”.
Later.