58 Replies to “Civilians Die As Military Invades Extremist Enclave”

  1. glasnost – try salim mansur. He’s a Muslim, writes for the Toronto Sun; he’s a professor of political science at UWO. How do I know he’s moderate? Read his columns. Oh, and he and I have met and talked several times over coffee.
    What about Tarek Fatah – he denounces the radicals quite openly.
    Irshad Manji; Aayan Hirsi Ali.
    Google their names and you’ll find out more. there are others of course; I won’t give their names, but the ones I’ve mentioned are often making public statements.
    Try the blog: Muslims against sharia. There’s an article by Farid Ghadry (Reform party of syria) on why Hamas must be destroyed.
    The president of Muslims against Sharia is Khalim Massoud (see Front Page dot com). There’s an interesting inteview with Massoud in FrontPageMag dot com, Nov 13, 2007, called ‘Muslims Against Sharia’. Google it and you’ll find it quite informative. For example, he says:
    “Islam in its present form is incompatible with modern society, that’s why it needs to be reformed. The first step is to abandon the doctrine of Islamic supremacy and remove passages from religious texts that could be interpreted (or misinterpreted) as calls to violence. We believe it is possible. Muslims, just as all other people, are human beings. If Christians could abandon the Inquisition, Muslims can abandon Jihad. Taking violence out of Islam is not the same as taking Islam out of Islam. It is a historical fact that major religions like Christianity and Judaism have undergone reformations on more than one occasion. Islamic reformation is no different. ”
    There are others writing in academic journals writing on specific actions of interpretation and openly declaring that the texts are, and must be, open to interpretive change and reform, to make Islam compatible with modern society.
    I hope this information can be of use to you.

  2. ET, thank you for pointing me to Muslims who are apparently willing to break the code and become “moderate Muslims”. I look forward to investigating the links you provided.
    What has really grabbed my attention today however, is the reaction of the SDA poster “new” who seems to have risen to a challenge to denounce Muslims who do bad things. This, of course, assumes that “new” is actually a Muslim.

  5. Irshad Manji a “moderate Muslima”?
    Islam means submission. A Muslim is One Who Submits. Irshad Manji does not submit.
    Kudos to Irshad Manji for trying to destroy Islam, though.
    When has Salim Mansur ever renounced the passages of the Koran that practicing Muslims like Osama bin Laden use to justify Jihad and acts of terror against the Kafir?
    Never.

  6. ET,
    “There’s an interesting inteview with Massoud in FrontPageMag dot com, Nov 13, 2007, called ‘Muslims Against Sharia’. Google it and you’ll find it quite informative. For example, he says:”
    “Islam in its present form is incompatible with modern society”
    – ET (posted later on this thread)
    “You (irwin daisy) reject any and all Muslim immigration which sets up a clear judgment that you view ALL Muslims as unfit to live within a democratic society.”
    – ET (earlier on another thread)
    It’s good you’ve finally come around to reading ‘Muslims against Sharia’ which I suggested you read about a year and a half ago. However, ET, your posts are quite revealing, wouldn’t you say?
    Perhaps your rigid and narrow view may be opening up? Maybe you might become open to actual debate based on the facts?
    On the other hand, you could be slipping into hypocrisy on top of your prejudice.
    We’ll see. A change in approach would be nice and informative for all involved. No shrillness needed, or falsifying what people actually say.
    This has not been happening in a petrie dish, observed from the 30,000 foot level. The Islamic ideology has been rudely interrupting peoples lives.
    In 270,000,000 cases, snuffing them out. Now it is within our borders.
    I give those Muslims who are actively attempting to reform Islam, respect and support. However, there are far too few of them. And what they are largely saying is to get rid of Mohammad, the Hadiths and much of the Quran. Which I don’t think is going to happen. And which is the key difference vis a vis Christian reform.

  8. I-P : solution for both parties
    STOP acting barbarian
    civilized — Shunning!!
    …
    civilize
    to bring out of a savage, uneducated, or rude state; make civil; elevate in social and private life; enlighten; refine: Rome civilized the barbarians.
    civ⋅i⋅lized 
    –adjective 1. having an advanced or humane culture, society, etc.
    2. polite; well-bred; refined.
    3. of or pertaining to civilized people: The civilized world must fight ignorance.
    4. easy to manage or control; well organized or ordered: The car is quiet and civilized, even in sharp turns.
    …
    Shunning
    Shunning means those whom we used to call brothers and sisters we would now pass in the market or street without acknowledging.
    shun means expel from a community or group; ostracize; ostracise; cast out; blackball
    …
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shunning
    Purposes
    Shunning can be broken down into behaviours and practices that seek to accomplish either or both of two primary goals.
    To modify the behaviour of a member. This approach seeks to influence, encourage, or coerce normative behaviours from members, and may seek to dissuade, provide disincentives for, or to compel avoidance of certain behaviours. Shunning may include disassociating the member by other members of the community who are in good standing. It may include more antagonistic psychological behaviours (described below). This approach may be seen as either corrective or punitive (or both) by the group membership or leadership, and may also be intended as a deterrent.
    To remove or limit the influence of a member (or former member) over other members in a community. This approach may seek to isolate, to discredit, or otherwise dis-empower such a member, often in the context of actions or positions advocated by that member. For groups with defined membership criteria, especially based on key behaviours or ideological precepts, this approach may be seen as limiting damage to the community or its leadership. This is often paired with some form of excommunication.
    Some less often practiced variants may seek to:
    Remove a specific member from general external influence to provide an ideological or psychological buffer against external views or behaviour. The amount can vary from severing ties to opponents of the group up to and including severing all non-group-affiliated intercourse.
    Shunning is usually approved of (if sometimes with regret) by the group engaging in the shunning, and usually highly disapproved of by the target of the shunning, resulting in a polarization of views. Those subject to the practice respond differently, usually depending both on the circumstances of the event, and the nature of the practices being applied. Extreme forms of shunning have damaged some individuals’ psychological and relational health. Extreme responses to the practice have developed, mostly around anti-shunning advocacy; such advocates highlight the detrimental effects of many of such behaviors, and seek to limit the practice through pressure or law. Such groups often operate supportive organizations or institutions to help victims of shunning to recover from damaging effects, and sometimes to attack the organizations practicing shunning, as a part of their advocacy.
    …
    Shunning:
    ”A Part of the Faith of Jehovah’s Witnesses”
    (Watchtower 4/15/88, p. 29)
    by Gary Busselman
    shun – to keep away from; avoid scrupulously or consistently.
    (Webster’s New World Dictionary)
    – to keep clear of; avoid. (Funk and Wagnalls Standard Desk Dictionary)
    Why It Works
    Why would I be afraid of someone who threatened not to talk to me unless I behaved a certain way? Why would I punish someone by not talking to them? Why would people try and try to gain the acceptance of a group who would look right through them without speaking or even acknowledge them when they chance met? What are the rewards for the shunners? What are the rewards for the shunned?
    Why the threat of shunning helped to keep me “in line” is clearer to me today. I believe that very night we “freed” the woman with the broken car, but we further enslaved ourselves to the Watchtower. For two reasons:
    (1) We reinforced each other by participating in a crime. In order for me to accept my own (truly un-Christian) behavior I had to approve, reinforce, accept, and condone the behavior of all the other members of the group. Shunning gave me the illusion of power. The illusion of power to a powerless person is a drug.
    (2) The group members modeled for me what they were willing to do in keeping the commands of the WT. For a moment I put myself in that woman’s place, and I knew I didn’t want to be there. Raised by Witness parents and indoctrinated by the WT since age seven, all my real security was tied up with a Watchtower ribbon. The thought of leaving the group was unthinkable.
    Shunning means those whom we used to call brothers and sisters we would now pass in the market or street without acknowledging. I was on spiritual high ground (a sort of religious “high”). While alone I was less bold when a shunning opportunity would arise, If it was a private situation, however, I might feel somewhat uncomfortable and maybe even make eye contact and nod.
    shunning can be used for abuse..
    Real or threatened, physical, mental, emotional, and verbal abuse is their power over members and often former members. Fear, guilt, shame, hatred, and later resentment and anger kept me with them selling Watchtowers on dirty street corners next to the bums, and from house to house.
    Shunning is probably the ultimate rejection of me as a person and maybe the cruelest mental, emotional, and psychological form of abuse. The results of the shunning by Jehovah’s Witnesses done to me was substantial pain and suffering … but only as long as lowed it to continue.
    Shunning is a Drug…
    …and drug users need enablers. I’ve noticed a few things about abusers of people and things. A person who abuses other humans does it for a reason. It is the same as any addiction to a substance or behavior. The addict gets something out of it, a “reward.” I have done research on the subject of addiction and have reached some interesting conclusions.
    Addicts need a drug , abusers need a victim. Shunners are playing a mind game and they need a playmate who will follow the rules. Shunning is their drug. Abusers need help to carry out their abuse. They need enablers (victims). Without their victims they can not continue to abuse. Watchtower rules for shunning must be followed by both shunner and VICTIM or shunning doesn’t work! Shunning is a show. To best work it needs an arena to be played in, and an audience.
    Recognizing My Responsibility
    I have a duty to myself, who I love, and to my many loved ones and real friends to protect myself and them from abuse and abusers.
    We are obligated to protect ourselves, even from parents. There is a limit on the extent to which we honor or obey them. To honor means to provide food, clothing, and shelter to them if asked, to avoid reprimands, be civil in conversation, and accommodate parents in requests made. To honor parents does not mean to make myself a target for their abuse of any kind. Emotional abuse hurts just as bad as physical abuse even though the scars are not on the outside.
    http://www.freeminds.org/buss/shunning.htm

Proudly powered by WordPress & Skyrocket Themes

MENU

Navigation