The things the CBC never told me;
As tens of thousands of Palestinians clambered back and forth between the Gaza strip and Egypt today, details emerged of the audacious operation that brought down a hated border wall and handed the Islamist group Hamas what might be its greatest propaganda coup.
Hamas, which took control of the coastal territory last June after a stand-off with Fatah, has denied that its men set off the explosions that brought down as much as two-thirds of the 12-km wall in the early hours. But a Hamas border guard interviewed by The Times at the border today admitted that the Islamist group was responsible and had been involved for months in slicing through the heavy metal wall using oxy-acetylene cutting torches.
That meant that when the explosive charges were set off in 17 different locations after midnight last night the 40ft wall came tumbling down, leaving it lying like a broken concertina down the middle of no-man’s land as an estimated 350,000 Gazans flooded into Egypt.
CBCpravda mentioned it a few years ago. this is when they looted thier own greenhouses.
http://www.cbc.ca/world/story/2005/09/13/Gaza_Egypt20050913.html
The real question in all of this is how does this benefit Egypt? What’s up?
it keeps 350000 extras from flooding your side of the border.
Now would be a good time to get that wall back up, as fast as possible.
Rumour has it that they crossed over to do a little grocery shopping and plan on returning to Gaza. Sort of like cross border shopping …Gaza style.
Hamas is a pariah organization in the eyes of all of the mid-east save Iran and perhaps Syria. were this to happen anywhere else this would be regarded as an act of war.
cal2 -and it is not just 35,000 extras, it is 35,000 peace loving Palestinians. 35,000 peace loving people that no Arab country wants – Jordan kicked them out, even though most of them are from Jordan. Saudi Arabia does not want them either. The wall is the only thing that has kept them out of Egypt. But, the EVIIL Israelis are condemned for having a wall. The Egyptian wall is rarely, if ever mentioned, expect for today.
I can’t understand why the evil Jooos would put up an apartheid wall on Egypt’s border?
I mean after all the Egyptians wouldn’t do it. Islam is the religion of peace and brotherhood.
Oh wait, it was so that the Palestinians would get food and supplies from their Muslim brothers. Crafty buggers aren’t they.
Maybe if the morons would stop shelling rockets into Israel, who sealed them off on their side for it, it’s what precipitated this, they could live like the rest of us in the civilized world and buy groceries from their neighbors without explosives.
And, don’t rush to blame Israel for this as Egypt agreed with the Israeli sanctions.
“Hamas appears to be applying pressure on Egypt, which has cooperated with Israel’s sanctions by keeping the Rafah border closed. By affecting public opinion in Egypt, scenes of privation in Gaza could force Egypt to ease the border closure, allowing the Hamas regime to relieve its isolation.”
http://www.jpost.com/servlet/Satellite?cid=1200572523339&pagename=JPost%2FJPArticle%2FShowFull
The Palestinians have got to be one of the most collectively dumb, failed societies on the face of the earth. How many times do you have to repeat the same failed policies before it dawns on you that it isn’t working? 60 years of stupidity ought to be enough.
What does it say about your people when your own brethren are trying to get rid of you and don’t want you in their country?
When even other arabs want nothing to do with you, you should probably evaluate your miserable lives.
The Egyptian wall has been reported on before, though not widely. And it certainly was not obsessed over in op-eds, blogs, UN white papers and resolutions, etc. like the “racist” and “xenophobic” Israeli version.
Actually, terrence, I don’t think that Jordan kicked the Palestinians out because they were never in Jordan in the first place.
And the reason that Jordan, Saudi Arabia and Egpyt doesn’t want them, apart from their ‘low caste’ status, is because they are not and never were, Jordanian, Saudi Arabians or Egyptian citizens. Israel would very much like the Palestinian people to be absorbed by these other nations; that would end any notion of a Palestinian state and Israel could then continue to settle all the lands of the West Bank immediately rather than incrementally.
Compare Egypt, Saudi Arabia, Jordan, with the US; it doesn’t want the Mexican lower class in its borders as illegals – even though the American left is chastizing the US, saying that the Mexicans ‘are all similar human beings, after all’. That, of course, is not the point.
The reason they broke down the Egyptian wall is because Israel had closed the Other Wall (to Israel) and the people in Gaza had no food, water, electricity.
What I’m puzzled about, is – was the Egyptian border patrol really unaware of months and months of deconstruction work being carried out against that wall? I quote: “months in slicing through the heavy metal wall using oxy-acetylene cutting torches”. The border patrol heard and saw nothing?
ET,
Prior to 1967 Jordan didn’t exist. Transjordan did. And it encompassed the west bank. The majority in what is left of Transjordan, now Jordan, are palestinian.
Prior to 1967 the gaza strip was part of Egypt and their people Egyptian.
Your facts are false.
“Pharoah! Let my people go!”
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this is so heartwarming… the egyptians welcomed their
palestinian brothers with open wallets, er… arms…
“Egyptian shopkeepers swiftly raised prices of milk,
taxi rides and cigarettes, but that did not deter the
Gazans, for many of whom it was their first trip out of
the territory.”
*
The Arabs will always pay lip service to the Palestinians but the last thing they want is them actually relocating in their countries.
I wondered about this wall as well. How is it, that this is the first, the majority of us have heard about it?
I mean the mean ol joos decided to build a wall and it is all over the news, Eygpt builds one and we don’t hear about it until someone blows a hole in it?
Jim,
The simple answer is that the newswires are staffed by Arab stringers employed by western anti-Semites. They haven’t made an issue out of Egypt’s wall because they can’t blame the Jews for it. Israel’s wall can be. Thus, we hear 2 years worth of Jew hatred and not a peep about Egypt.
warwick – prior to 1967, we can consider the Ottoman rule of the entire area, the British rule of the area, the 1948 UN split of the area into two states – and try without success to define who is ‘original citizenship’.
My point is that to claim that Jordan should accept the Palestinians because ‘they are really Jordanians’ is false. Or Egyptians. They were living in an area ruled by the Ottomans and the British, and even, officially, the area was called Palestine. But the name isn’t relevant.
The reality is, that Palestinians were legally living in the area – owning land and farms, paying taxes, etc. Then there was the movement in the 19th century and in the early 20th c. for a Jewish state, with its UN approval in 1948.
Any reasons given for Israeli ‘rights’ to the land which include axioms such as ‘God gave us the land’ or “we were here first’, are, I hope, rationally unacceptable to most people. After all, these are the same arguments used by the Caledonian natives and we don’t, legally, accept those arguments.
I’m not sure what you expect the people who were already living there to do when the UN declares that the land you live in, is now defined as X-country, and when the govt of this new land makes it quite clear that, due to your religion, you are no longer welcome as a citizen.
What I would expect as a ‘just solution’ would be to give these people very fair compensation for their farms and homes, and, follow the UN outlined plan for their own state.
Instead – no compensation, and occupation and continual settling of their lands.
As to people’s surprise for the Palestinian hostility, I confess to my own surprise why anyone would expect them NOT to be hostile. In the beginning, I would think the hostility would have a direct cause. Loss of farms, loss of homes, loss of income, fears, status as refugee, etc.
But, over time – and it’s now so many years that the original refugees are now grandparents and great grandparents, the anger will have transformed into a purely irrational hatred of any and all Israelis. Causes, by now, are no longer needed for hatred to exist; it’s purely irrational. You’ll find the same irrational hatred among Israeli extremists. So, what’s the solution? Certainly, telling the Palestinians to ‘stop hating us’ is ridiculous. The anger is now too deep. Equally, telling many settlers that the land is not theirs by ‘god’s right’ is useless; that’s what they believe.
I think that Israel, as a political state, has to acknowledge that the Palestinian people are ‘there’; they aren’t going to go away; they aren’t going to be absorbed by any other state. They were in the now-Israel lands before and they are now in the occupied areas. That means, for Israel, to negotiate a large financial settlement as compensation, and, get out of the West Bank, remove all settlements.
Israel won’t want to do that; the West Bank is fertile, and above all, it has access to the important commodity in the ME – water.
But I don’t see any other solution.
ET, I usually agree with most of what you write here SDA; however, I don’t recall you messing up facts as you did at January 23, 2008 12:49 PM : “Actually, terrence, I don’t think that Jordan kicked the Palestinians out because they were never in Jordan in the first place.”
A quick Google search of “Jordan” and “Palestinians” gives 552,000 entries. Many of these clearly support my and Warwick’s comment. Palestinians were part of Jordan from its inception.
Here is a quote from one of the many sources:
https://www.cia.gov/library/publications/the-world-factbook/geos/jo.html#Intro
“Following World War I and the dissolution of the Ottoman Empire, the UK received a mandate to govern much of the Middle East. Britain separated out a semi-autonomous region of Transjordan from Palestine in the early 1920s, and the area gained its independence in 1946; it adopted the name of Jordan in 1950. The country’s long-time ruler was King HUSSEIN (1953-99). A pragmatic leader, he successfully navigated competing pressures from the major powers (US, USSR, and UK), various Arab states, Israel, and a large internal Palestinian population, despite several wars and coup attempts.”
Further, who said, “that Jordan should accept the Palestinians because ‘they are really Jordanians’ is false”? I did not say that; but now that you mention it, Palestinians are as much Jordanian as other Jordanian is – many of them were in what is now called Jordan when Jordan became a country.
The best piece of Bush’s ME policy was taking the Palistinians off of center stage. He destroyed their international political cache finally. Now reduced to living and looking like the Arab answer to A Clockwork Orange, they can finally cannabalize themselves between Hamas and Fatah for all of the world to see.
ET – Israel has also been supplying basic humanitarian aid to them. Maybe it’s time for the Saudis to airlift them stuff and for the Palistinians get their arms dealers to add cartons of cigarettes with the shipments.
Not wanting to gang up on you ET …. but that is the single most uninformed piece of revisionist rubbish that I’ve ever seen you post.
Good God!
ET,
They can take their “compensation” from the Jewish land taken from those expelled from Arab states.
In addition, most of the Palestinians (who invented their association with the name after 1967) either left by choice (due to scaremongering by other Arabs) or were bought out for cash. The Jews didn’t have that choice.
Yes, there were both arab and jewish people living there pre-48. That was because it was re-developed from wasteland by returning jews in the 19th century and Arabs flocked to make use of the opportunities provided to them by Jewish enginuity and work.
The idea of a two state solution was accepted by Isreal but rejected by Arabs. Between 48 and 67 the land that is now called the west bank was Transjordan. This is fact. It was a country with boarders. Ditto with Gaza as part of the country of Egypt. Fact.
Now Jordan doesn’t want them back even though they are the same people as them. There is no jordanian “people” just a set of arbitrary boarders. The people are the same from lebanon, jordan, syria, etc. They’re all Arabs. Their chosen nationalities are not set, are not static and are not based on language, culture, race or any other criteria (the bedoin of Saudi Arabia is different though.) They aren’t even as differentiated as Europeans which at least have different languages and cultures. Prior to their leaders politicizing their cause, the idea of palestinian nationality didn’t exist.
Now due to several generation of institutionalized hate propaganda, the people of that region are completely wrecked. The Jews didn’t wreck them, the Arabs – their own people – wrecked them.
Now – unlike in 48 – they couldn’t run a paper route much less a nation-state.
If the Palestinians would quit lobbing bombs at Israel and cutting holes in fences and destroying the Gaza think what they could accomplish with that energy.
Regarding the West Bank being fertile – big parts of Israel are NOW fertile. Prior to the EEEVIIIL Joooos “occupying” Israel, these places were non-fertile deserts that grew very little, if anything. Now, many of them are extremely productive, and these areas are exclusively “occupied” by the EEEVIIIL Joooos.
The Palestinians in Gaza are good at rocket and suicide attacks, but when it comes to supplying basic human necessities, they rely on the EEEVIIIL Joooos and the Egyptians. When the EEEVIIIL Joooos gave the Gaza strip to the Palestinians, they turned over a number of extremely successful greenhouse complexes and offered to train the Palestinians in running them. The EEEVIIIL Joooos were getting millions of dollars profit a year from these complexes, as well as supplying Israel and Europe with fresh fruit and vegetables. The “oppressed” Palestinians turned down the offer and dismantled the greenhouses; they could use the metal in war operations.
http://www.take-a-pen.org/english/Fences.htm
Pics and details of apartheid fences around the world – but non-Jooooish ones that seem to fly under the Left’s radar:
Mexico and the USA
North and South Korea
North Cyprus/South Cyprus
Northern Ireland
Hoek van Holland, Netherlands
India and Pakistan
Spain and Morocco
Saudi Arabia and Yemen
Botswana and Zimbabwe
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“et phones home… to claim that Jordan should accept the Palestinians because
‘they are really Jordanians’ is false.”
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geez… that didn’t stop them from trying to take over jordan, did it?
so… master military stategists that they are… the palestinians commenced
“operation kick myself in the balls”.
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“In mid-June 1971, after three tense months during which the sides made efforts to fortify their positions by political means, Jordan embarked on the final campaign against the Palestinians. The Jordanian army, which for almost 10 months had been pushing the Palestinian organizations out of the major cities, used large forces to expel them from the mountainous regions of the cities of Jerash and Ajloun, in the north of the kingdom, where about 3,000 armed Palestinians were located.”
“The members of Fatah declared that they preferred to die in battle rather than surrender to the Jordanian dictates. After four days of battle, the Jordanian army overcame the last pockets of resistance.”
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Hey kids, book your hotel rooms early: looks like the Joooo hate fest known as Durban II is a go:
A government official has told The Canadian Press the so-called Durban II conference has turned into a “gong show” with Libya elected to chair the gathering, Cuba appointed vice-chair and rapporteur, and anti-Israel rhetoric building.
The official, speaking on condition of anonymity, says the 2001 World Conference Against Racism in Durban was a fiasco as Arab and Muslim countries ganged up in their criticisms of Israel.
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“terrence says… when it comes to supplying basic human necessities”
let’s not overlook that the pals are masters of media propaganda.
witness the “horrific blockade” of fuel oil that has provoked a
“supposed humanitarian crisis”… the fact is, that 70% of the pals
electricity comes through transmission lines unaffected by the
very blockade of fuel that they are screaming about.
transmitted from where, you ask?
that’d be israel.
the msm doesn’t care about unsexy details like that.
genius.
*
It was probably due to a cock-up by the Hamas translators that were working on the Reagan Archives.
“Mr. Gorbachev, tear down this wall!”
Similar result though:
“Rafah became a huge Middle Eastern bazaar. Thousands of people were herding back cows, sheep and even camels from Egypt into the Gaza strip. Others brought back motorbikes while many women lugged back cans of olive oil and men could be seen weighed down with jerry-cans full of fuel….Moneychangers flocked to the border”
terrence – because part of Transjordan became defined as Jordan does not mean, logically, that All who lived in the rest of Transjordan are now ‘Jordanians’. That would be similar to saying that because part of Europe became defined as Belgium, all who lived in Europe are now Belgians. I hope you can see how illogical such a conclusion is.
warwick – I totally disagree with you. Tit for tat arguments (well, the Arab lands then expelled the Jews) won’t solve the problem.
I also disagree that the name Palestine was invented post 1967; as you know, it’s a very old name, and the people who lived there were indeed defined as Palestinian. What name would you prefer that they call themselves?
I also strongly disagree with you that they left voluntarily or were compensated. You are probably aware of the various Israeli laws including the ‘cultivation of waste lands ordinance of 1949, ’emergency land requisition of 1949′ ‘absentee property law of 1950, the land acquisition law of 1953…and so on.
I think your suggestion that the reason people were living there prior to 1948 was solely due to Jewish land development is totally without foundation. No, the land was not a ‘wasteland’ before; it never was.
It was always a populated area from ancient times; the type of farming there was always Subsistence Farming and transhumance, which is a type of peasant farming in low rainfall areas. It can support a population in the hundred thousands.
The European settlers brought the technology and tools from a Rainfall Agricultural system – a very different agriculture requiring, in the ME, irrigation techniques (since the rainfall is inadequate). It can support a larger population but requires industrial style technology for irrigation – which was, by the time of the 20thc, available.
Your opinion that the land was empty and a wasteland before the Jews arrived is, I maintain, totally without foundation.
I also disagree with you that Israel accepted a two-state solution. It never did and still, officially, doesn’t, though many Israeli people want exactly that. I am hoping that you don’t bring up the Oslo accord as an example of a ‘two-state’ solution, because it wasn’t.
Your opinion that the people are ‘all the same’ because ‘they are all Arabs’ is also, I maintain, superficial. After all, one can say the same about Europe – why have different countries in Europe? They are ‘all Caucasians’. Why have separate USA and Canada? Humph. We are ‘all Caucasian’. We both speak English. Humph.
No, what you are profoundly ignoring is that a common identity, such as ‘arab’ isn’t definitive of a nation, just as a common identity of ‘caucasian’ isn’t definitive of a nation. People form societies based on local identities, which are formed out of long term associations with the local ecology, the long term history of living in that ecology economically and socially.
These identities are not ‘set’, and are not ‘static’ but are historically evolving. The fact that Belgians speak French in one part of that nation, doesn’t mean that they would consider themselves properly part of France. Same with Quebec.
There’s no such thing as ‘race’ by the way.
Yes, the idea of Palestinian nationality didn’t exist until about 1948. The idea of Israeli nationality didn’t exist until then either. At one time, the idea of Canadian nationality didn’t exist either. So?
terrence – I don’t think that silly terminology like ‘the evil Joos’ accomplishes anything. With regard to the West Bank, please see my comments above. Again, the area wasn’t a wasteland. What you do understand is the nature of different types of ecological adaptation. A major problem in the ME, of course, is water. Before introducing industrial technology, which was developed in Europe, with its rainfall ecology, you could only have a basic horticulture and transhumance in that area. This is a simple peasant agriculture that provides quite well for a medium size population. And it’s usually found in areas with water problems. But to call it a wasteland shows an ignorance of reality.
The rest of your post is too juvenile to respond to.
Hamas’ seizure of Northern Sinai from Egypt sends Washington, Jerusalem and Cairo into tense consultations
Senior military sources told DEBKAfile that the strategic feat achieved by Hamas Tuesday night, in capturing a section of Sinai from Egyptian forces, is irreversible. Egyptian president Hosni Mubarak, US secretary of state Condoleezza Rice and Israeli prime minister Ehud Olmert held tense talks on the crisis Wednesday night, Jan. 23.
By demolishing the 10-km concrete barrier dividing the Gaza Strip from Egyptian Sinai, Hamas, backed by 200,000 Palestinians who surged across Wednesday, has acquired a new stronghold outside Israel’s military reach. US and Israeli intelligence sources report that Hamas laid the ground for its coup and timed it deliberately for the opening Wednesday of the Palestinian National Congress in Damascus. This event was organized by Tehran and Damascus to counter the US-promoted Annapolis conference and discredit Mahmoud Abbas’ diplomatic track with Israel under the US aegis…
Related:
The Palestinian fundamentalist group ruling the Gaza Strip has plans for building on its successes in seizing control of the Egyptian border…Hamas agitators are inciting Egyptian opposition parties, led by their parent Muslim Brotherhood, to stage a mass anti-government protest this coming weekend.
You are really not having a good day, ET. Perhaps you should go out and get some fresh air. And, maybe you should try to READ and UNDERSTAND the comments before you emotionally over react to them (“react” is the word; you do NOT respond and deal with content).
In short, what you wrote at January 23, 2008 2:51 PM is really too juvenile to respond to.
“Tit for tat arguments (well, the Arab lands then expelled the Jews) won’t solve the problem.”
But destroying Israel will then?
Tit for tat my ass. Arab Israelis have full citizenship rights not available to Arabs in any other ME country. Jews in Arab countries have no rights.
Arabs didn’t have to leave as illustrated by the FACT that many did not and are thus “persecuted” with rights not enjoyed by those that did leave.
Israel took in all those Jews who were expelled from Arab states and gave them full rights. That is the reason they don’t need compensation. They’ve moved on. If Arab states had treated those who left Israel in the same way, they wouldn’t be in squalor now.
There will be two states when Arabs want to prosper more than they want to murder Jews and destroy everything within reach. That includes supplying their own economy and resources and not relying on the Jews they’re trying to kill to provide it for them.
As for Europe, re-read my post. I believe I stated clearly that language and culture are differentiated in Europe in a way that doesn’t exist in the area of Lebanon, Syria, Jordan and the West Bank. The Arabs in this area have common culture, common language, common history. They are one people with more than one territory. A difference in the ME would be Arab vs Persian. They have different language, culture and history. Even the Bedouin nomads are different from the rest of the Arabs. But an Arab from Jordan and an Arab from Lebanon and an Arab from the West Bank share a 800 years of history, a language and a culture.
And using Belgium isn’t the best example. They’re on the brink of spitting up for the reasons I stated – language and culture.
ET, an offer of financial compensation, as well as an offer of citizenship, could go a long way. In such arrangements, as in business, one wants finality – a full and final release. Compensation, citizenship in exchange for that finality, and an oath of loyalty.
ET, I agree with your analysis.
The problem is, those with the political agenda to use the Palestinian people would think nothing of killing the first few takers to make examples of them.
I suppose to be Palestinian is to live largely in fear, and mostly notably not from the Israelis. What a dreadful way to exist.
So it’s “racist” and “illegal” for Israel to build a wall to keep out insane, hateful extremists who plan to blow themselves up amongst many Israelis…
But when Egypt does it, it’s a “right”?
See, Leftist anti-Israel hateful bigot extremists? This is discrimination and hate directed at Israel. See? How can you not? Are you bloody insane?
Double standards… it’s as if the Most Superior Grand High Moonbat of the Far Left has deemed it an imperative, sort of like Taqiyaa is for the Islamic supremacist-imperialists…
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“canadian sentinel asks… But when Egypt does it, it’s a “right”?”
of course it is… you conservative brute!
it’s like rappers sh!tting all over their ho’s… or using the “n” word.
you just apply a little of that moonbat “cultural context”…
and everybody’s cool.
*
When it comes to Israel, ET you do come up with a lot of rubbish. Fact: there never was a Palestinian nationality. Fact: in 1948/49 the label Palestinian was given to the Jews not the Arabs. It was only much later that Arafat appropriated the term for the Arabs.
As to the Arabs in Gaza being forced to tear down the wall due to Israel cutting off their electricity, guess what. It was Hamas that blew up the generator which provided them with electricity. No matter for the Jew haters it is all Israel’s fault.
terrence – I stand by my comments to you.
warwick – you know perfectly well that Arab citizens of Israel don’t have the same rights as Jewish citizens because some ‘rights’ are defined not by citizenship but by ethnicity. Some things are confined to those of the Jewish religion only, including land use, governed by the ILA (Israeli Land Administration 1960) and marriage rules as well as a great deal of social discrimination.
Again, your comments about ‘tit for tat’ are not relevant. Israel should make its decisions based, not on ‘tit for tat’ but on what it believes is just and fair. By the way, Jews in, of all places, Iran, do have rights.
I also disagree with your suggestion that the Palestinians didn’t ‘have’ to leave; I tend to believe the researchers who suggest that there was a long campaign by the early zionists during the British era and post WWII to get the Palestinians to leave. I don’t see how Israel could have defined itself as a Jewish state, ie, with a clear self-definition of itself within one particular religion, without excluding the current majority who were of a different religion.
Israel has a policy of taking in ANY person, from ANY country in the world (not simply the Arab nations), with immediate citizenship, if they are of the Jewish religion.
I disagree with you about the ‘arabs in Lebanon, Syria, Jordan’. They do not have a common culture and history. Language and culture do not emerge fully formed from the earth; the evolve over time and history. This evolution is directl linked to the local reality of the ecology, the economy that has adapted to that ecology, etc. You are ignoring this.
To use your way of thinking, the US and Canada should merge. Indeed, we even should merge with the UK and Australia and New Zealand. What you are ignoring is culture. It isn’t a ‘thing’ that exists in a static, fully formed-from-birth mode. It’s an ongoing, evolving reality.
The Belgian example wasn’t to suggest a split because of their language; after all, Canada could do the same if one were to agree with you. My point was that because half of the Belgians speak French does not mean that they have any wish to merge with France or that they consider themselves ‘the same as’ the French.
Therefore, Syrians do not consider themselves ‘the same as’ the Lebanese. Are you aware of their current anger against each other for Syria’s attempt to intrude on Lebanese affairs?
Nations and cultures don’t emerge fully formed from the earth; your opinions suggest that you think they do.
As for the Palestinians supplying their own economy etc – that would be accomplished if Israel would first acknowledge the right and existence of a Palestinian state. So far, they haven’t. This would mean they’d have to move their settlements out of the West Bank and end the occuption. This would include allowing the Palestinians access to water to irrigate their farms; currently, such water access is given only to the settlers. That includes road access, air access etc.
As for your argument that first the Palestinians would have to ‘stop hating Israel and bombing Israel’ – that’s a Catch 22. As long as Israel refuses to recognize a Palestinian state, maintains its 250 plus settlements in the West Bank, controls the water etc – well, the anger is going to continue. What puzzles me is why you think that these people shouldn’t be angry!
We certainly think that the Caledonia people should be angry at the natives who have moved in and claimed their land and houses. Why shouldn’t the Palestinians be angry?
shaken – thanks for your support but I’m a bit puzzled by your comments. You mention ‘citizenship’ and an ‘oath of loyalty’. Surely you don’t mean citizenship within Israel and loyalty to Israel? Israel doesn’t want the Palestinian population as citizens! There’s almost 4 million of them in total, and 6 million Israeli; Israel’s specific self-definition is a Jewish majority. The population growth in Gaza and the West Bank arabs is three times that of Israel – and if they became Israeli citizens, the Muslim population would outnumber the Jewish population.
Canadian Sentinel – who has said that it is ‘racist’ and ‘illegal’ for Israel to build a wall? I didn’t read those comments here. My criticism of their wall would refer only to those parts that extend the 1967 borders.
My criticism of Israel is that they must realistically recognize that the Palestinians are there; that no amount of wishing will make them disappear, and that a two-state solution is the only answer.
alain, what’s your point? At one time, there wasn’t an American nationality; or a Canadian nationality. So? Does that mean these two countries have no right, now, to exist as nations?
There never was a ‘Palestinian’ nation; there was a territory in the ME, which was called Palestine, which was ruled by the Byzantines and various other countries including Persia, Egypt, the Ottomans and the British. The British referred to the area as Palestine and its occupants as Palestinians. This definition did not refer only to Jewish people there.
What is your point? Surely you can’t be saying that unless you, as a people, have a particular national name since time began, that you can’t form a nation! That would exclude just about every nation on this planet!
What I don’t see, on this thread, is any attempt to deal with the realities of the situation. The point is – these people are there. What is going to be done about them? Telling them to stop hating is useless. Strangely, I don’t see anyone saying that Israel must stop building settlements! But that isn’t the point. Since neither side’s population is going to disappear, then, the only solution that I can think of, is a two-state solution.
ET, with respect to your 2:51 comments, fundamentally you are correct. There are indeed great differences between the people we know as Palestinian and those we know today as Jordanians. Their ethnic background is entirely different. Palestine was largely a rural agricultural society. The Transjordan by contrast, what we now today call Jordan, was primarily Bedouin in its makeup, primarily nomadic and having very little in common with the Palestinians. Also remember that the addition of the West Bank to Jordan was a remnant of the 1948 war. The UN decreed that Palestine be partitioned into two states, one Zionist and the other Palestinian. However, there was no partition, there was a war between the Jewish settlers and the three surrounding Islamic nations, Syria, Transjordan and Egypt. The boundaries of the West Bank were established by the lines of the ceasefire in 1949 and have relatively little in common with the original UN demarcation line as consequences on the battlefield trumped decisions from the UN conference table. No Palestinian state was formed because the Arab states chose to resist the partition rather than agree to it. The West Bank and Gaza boundaries were simply the rump territories left in possession of the Jordanian and Egyptian armies, respectively. Historic note: Transjordan was the name given to the region by the British military occupation in 1919 as the region on the east side of the Jordan River. Administratively in the Ottoman Empire it, like Palestine and Lebanon, was part of Syria and hence high diverse. The seeming similarity of Arab peoples is an illusion. Winston Churchill illustrated it best in his description of Britain and the US; “Two peoples divided by a common language.”
This just goes to show that there is a pecking order amongst Arabs. Seems that the Palestinians are at the bottom of that pecking order.
So, the jews are not the only ones trying to keep them out of their territory. This just goes to show that the Palestinian issue is a red herring when it comes to the terrorists’ rational. Interesting. They are fenced in on the Egyption side and the Israel side. That leaves just themselves. Hum.
ET said, “terrence – I stand by my comments to you.” Big whoop, ET, big whoop! Your emotional diatribe was juvenile, and you know it (unless you are still over reacting emotionally; you really do not take criticism will do you).
You really should read and TRY to understand comments before you over react to them, ET (and you have done so with lots of them today, not just mine). Who knows, ET may actually learn something! Imagine that, someone teaching ET something. But, ET will NOT have that!
I suppose I must be a slow learner, for I should have known from past experience that you ET are incapable of dealing with facts – yes documented facts – when the topic is Israel.
What is not acceptable is the revising of history, the distortion and twisting of facts. Perhaps this is due to some kind of moral equivalence, I really have no idea. While you can use facts and logic in commenting on other topics, you have proven yourself once again incapable of informed debate on the subject of Israel. Rather sad comment on your part.
Melanie Phillips weighs in with a priceless blog posting: Hamas: 2, world: nil.
My criticism of Israel is that they must realistically recognize that the Palestinians are there; that no amount of wishing will make them disappear, and that a two-state solution is the only answer.
ET, you have it backwards. The problem has been not the Israelis rejecting a two state solution, but, time after time the Palistinians walking away from any accords that recognized Israel’s right to exist.
I don’t think that any group that by majority consent which fashions a government out of terrorists deserves a state. Statehood implies more than defined borders. You need to have respect for your neighbors, the ability to build an infrastructure, a civil society that doesn’t settle disputes internally and externally with murder and mayhem. 60 years of international aid, oh, and lots of money and services from Israel too, and what have they done with it? Nothing. There is no modern state to make out of that mess.
1.7 million Israelis are Arabs, 25% of the population. That they aren’t a problem there is telling. I presume most of them are grateful to be living in a civil society away from the perpetual thuggery and zero opportunities.
I agree entirely with Alain at January 23, 2008 5:41 PM, as far as it pertains to today’s post.
ET is often very informative, rational and intelligent, at least, on topics that do not relate to Israel. But she has come unhinged and hysterical in this post. ET’s over reaction may be an anti-Israel bias on her part. I don’t recall seeing her comments on other Israeli related posts (I don’t read everything on SDA).
Unfortunately, it is quite sad to see someone hit the emotional bottom, as ET has today. I used to think her comments were worth reading. That clearly does NOT apply to Israeli related items, if today’s post is indicative. Alain says it is characteristic of her; so it may well be true. Sad, if it is true.
It occurred to me that this is not the real “ET”, but maybe someone is using her initials. But, the writing seems to be close to other stuff ET writes, so maybe it is her. Mores the pity!
I believe most of the Isreali Arabs are Christians. .
cgh – yes, the peoples are quite different. It is simply impossible to reduce people to a homogeneous type. That’s why I disagree with those on this thread who call them ‘all arabs’. You can’t reduce people to such a homogeneity. Even peoples who are seemingly of the same linguistic background, religion, ethnicity, will over time, establish strong different sociocultural identities. This is due to their local realities – the realities of their ecological environment and their local economy.
fiumara – yes, you are absolutely right, there is a ‘pecking order’ among the arabs. And among all peoples, after all. The Palestinians were indeed consider ‘ignorant and illiterate peasants’ by the other Arab nations. They were considered really, really low! They didn’t and don’t want them. The Islamic fascists, on the other hand, are using them as a front, as an excuse for their terrorism. In reality, the Islamic fascists don’t give a damn about the Palestinians.
terrence – nothing that I am writing is written in an emotional manner. And, most certainly not hysterical. There is no need to weep for me. I mean what I say – and I’m quite rational about my opinions.
The fact that I don’t agree with you, and others, on this topic, doesn’t mean that I am irrational. Or emotional. You are rejecting the very basis of free speech, which is, the right to dissent. And, this dissent doesn’t mean that ONE person is rational, and the other person is emotional/hysterical. Both can be rational. They can still disagree.
You haven’t provided me with any data that I can accept to change my view. What you are doing instead, is simply attacking me as an ’emotional’ and ‘hysteric’. How about just dealing with the issues?
Same with Alain – he’s just attacking me personally. How about the issues? Alain, I’ve asked you a number of questions and raised a number of issues. You don’t answer them; now, you are just declaring that I’m wrong. That’s hardly an argument.
penny – what Accords about recognizing Israel’s right to exist are you talking about? To my knowledge, the PLO (and Arafat, corrupt and evil man that he was) DID acknowledge Israel’s right to exist. But Israel does not acknowledge the right of a Palestinian state. So, what Accords are you talking about?
I don’t think that you can define the 4 million Palestinians as ‘all terrorists’. And, I don’t think that there is a preliminary status of behaviour, a check-list of all potential citizens, that can be carried out before ‘allowing them’ to become a nation.
Furthermore, I don’t think you are aware of the history of the area. It is very difficult to build a society when you are denied the basic economic infrastructure, such as land, water, regular transport to markets; when you are denied the rights to exercise political authority.
As for their current degeneration into internal ‘civil war’, that’s frankly to be expected. It happens in just about every collective that is a ‘group’ but without power to affect the lives of its population. The group turns on itself. That’s a psychological truism.
Again, no-one seems willing, or able, to take up the issues. The basic issues. The view here is that one must be totally on-side with Israel, and totally against the Evil Palestinians (who are also deemed not to have any valid existence). If you criticize Israel, as I do, the conclusion is that I am ’emotional’ or ‘hysterical’ or..whatever.
What about the issues? How does one deal with the reality of 4 million Palestinians who are not going to dissolve into the night, who are not going to be accepted as citizens of Israel?
You can, of course, continue to hate them, to declare that ‘until they ALL (4 million) behave, and until there is NO argument heard’…But that solves nothing other than one’s own erroneous morality.
What’s the solution? I think it has to be a two state solution. That means some very hard and difficult choices for Israel. It means getting out, completely out, of the West Bank. It means acknowledging Palestine as a state, not a set of municipalities. It means some form of financial compensation for lost lands, farms and homes. The first two, frankly, would be the most difficult.
On the Arab State side, it means that they too, must acknowledge Palestine as a nation. Heh. I wonder, I wonder, if they are really prepared to do that. That would be yet another democratic Muslim state in their midst. I wonder if Saudi Arabia, Iran, Syria – are prepared for that.
And the Islamic fascists? They have no more ‘front guy’ excuse of Palestine for their criminal attacks against the West. They won’t like that either.
Now- is anyone here prepared to debate these issues? Or is it just the usual dead-end mantra of – Love Israel and Hate Arabs?
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et once again phones home… hat would be accomplished if Israel would
first acknowledge the right and existence of a Palestinian state”
that’s a good one… you gonna try tell us about the israeli vow to wipe
palestinians off the map?
methinks your agenda is totally bass-ackwards… but hey, you’re obviously
not let facts get in the way of your martyrdom narrative.
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