Statement by Lieutenant-General W.J. Natynczyk, Vice Chief of the Defence Staff;
“Media reporting of a specific example of an individual detained by Afghan Authorities are inaccurate. These reports suggest that the Canadian Forces (CF) transferred an Afghan captured by the CF, that this individual was subsequently abused, and that this was known at the time.
To be clear, the circumstances of this incident do not support such conclusions.
The incident took place in the Zangabad area in the course of an operation in June 2006. The CF members came upon the individual and questioned him but at no time did they capture him. From their questions, the CF members concluded that there was no need to detain the individual as he was of no value or threat to them. Subsequently, the local Afghan National Police (ANP) arrested him.
Sometime later CF members visited the local ANP station where the Afghan had been taken. At that time they noticed injuries that had not been present previously. A medical examination assessed the individual as having minor injuries.
As the result of what they observed the CF members were hesitant to leave the Afghan with the local ANP, took custody of him, and arranged for him to be transferred to a different ANP detachment.
Nothing in the circumstances described can lead to a conclusion that the individual was tortured and that CF members were aware of such torture. As the circumstances above indicate, this individual was not processed by the CF as a detainee; he was arrested by the ANP. The level of abuse evident in this case appeared relatively minor but enough to cause CF members to take concrete steps to ensure the safety and welfare of the individual as they are trained to do.
Finally, as Colonel Noonan’s affidavit indicates, there were no specific complaints received from CF members, humanitarian agencies, detainees or former detainees to the CF or CEFCOM regarding the treatment of detainees transferred to Afghan authorities by Canada.”
h/t Maz2, in the comments
For those who ‘concede’ that Harper and the CPC did not handle the ‘faux detainee torture’ accusations…are you basing that conclusion on so called ‘reports’ from MSM?
I watched HoC proceedings on CPAC…the media reports did not match the goings on the HoC.
eg. Our local birdcage liner described the CPC as ‘in shambles’ over the issue. In fact they were cool and calm and the Libs were hollering and screaming. Jennings was embarrassing.
(I’m sorry I didn’t see McKay’s assertive response)
And CTV’s handling of the Shane Doan affair was typical. Fifer of course bashed Harper.No surprise there.
Not really off topic…a few retail outlets locally have booths giving away free TO Star’s…
they weren’t going fast.
“But — Harper’s team have botched this thing from the beginning…”
Posted by: yadayada at May 5, 2007 11:43 AM
Talking about my own post, am I shamrock?
“Only an idiot doesn’t know term bandied about the left like marxist candy. Funny how your complicity crap doesn’t need direct evidence.”
What the hell is that supposed to mean? Stop ranting and provide proof: who has said that Canadian soldiers ARE war criminals?
Rather than admit ignorance, Harper says “I can understand that the leader of the Opposition and members of his party feel for Taliban prisoners. I just wish occasionally they’d show the same passion for Canadian soldiers.” That’s right out of the George W. Bush, “You’re either with us or, you’re with the terrorists” play book.
Iberia: provide direct evidence of Canadians participating in abuse of prisoners, war crimes, torture. Otherwise, STFU.
“Typical right wingers: refusing to take responsibility for the mess that they created. Don’t hide behind the troops, you LOSERS!!”
Taken from your post.
You’re such a hypocrite, with your blind bobblehead adherance to your loony lefty friends, accusing others of being dogmatic.
You slam away, time and again, defending anything left, then demand proof to any counterargument. That’s any old Lib trick that doesn’t work anymore. I will challenge your garbage everytime.
Put your money where your mouth is and tell us you want an election, since Stephen Harper, the big fat meanie, is such a bad leader.
You need to spend some time in a room with a Taliban “freedom fighter.”
shamrock:
Show me where I ever wrote that Canadian soldiers ARE committing war crimes. Show me where any opposition member said that Canadian soldiers ARE committing war crimes.
This whole issue is about what policies the Canadian government has in order to prevent the possibility of being charged with a war crime. When asked, O’Connor didn’t have an answer so he made one up. He is incompetent and he should be fired. Day brought forward his own misinformation about prison guards, etc., so the same goes for him. Dear Fat Leader can’t admit that his government doesn’t know what it is doing, so he and his sycophants are trying to spin this into an attack on the soldiers. Pathetic.
And if you ask me, the media has been much too soft on the Harper gang’s failings on this issue.
SDA scooped CP, Canadian Press, aka MSM.
Seriously, it’s the start of the MSM flurry of …; prob’ly the only.
…-
Defence Department issues clarification on Afghan prisoner abuse testimony
OTTAWA (CP) – The Canadian Forces has released more details about an incident in which soldiers in Afghanistan intervened to save a civilian who was being abused.
Reports of the June 2006 incident, taken from court transcripts, caused an uproar in the Commons on Friday.
Lt.-Gen. Walter Natynczyk, the Vice-Chief of the Defence Staff, said Saturday that the way the incident has been portrayed is inaccurate. […]
In a statement released late Saturday, Natynczyk said there was no indication of torture.
It is the first time the military has provided this kind of clarification about the controvery involving detainees. …-
http://cnews.canoe.ca/CNEWS/War_Terror/2007/05/05/4156764-cp.html
No Iberia, they’re not quite that stupid. They got their press friends to say it for them. I’m still waiting for your evidence of Canadian military complicity in war crimes, mistreatement and torture.
Now you want Cdns to believe “whole issue is about what policies the Canadian government has in order to prevent the possibility of being charged with a war crime.” God, are you that naive. Why has this come up now; wouldn’t when the LIBERALS wrote the policy have been a better time to review its shortcomings. After all, this is supposed to be about protecting the soldiers. Yeah right. You and opposoweanies just want a head on a wall to curry cheap votes.
We’re supposed to get out of Afghanistan NLT 09, but apparently they can’t be trusted to handle criminals (Oh, God, where is my link).
Get this straight, you don’t speak for soldiers. Look forward to next election when that Libs explain – “we were just looking out for the troops.” Sorry, Libs now tied into moonbat “can’t we just give peace a chance” dipper types on this issue. Have fun with it. Liberia, just curious, do you want election now?
On CTV website:
”DND issues clarification on Afghan abuse story
Updated Sat. May. 5 2007 7:45 PM ET
Canadian Press
…. It was initially suggested the man had been captured by Canadian soldiers. (right, suggested without fact, by the media)
But Natynczyk said that’s not the case and the individual had simply been questioned by soldiers in the village of Zangabad, 50 kilometres southwest of Kandahar.
The incident was used as illustration by Opposition parties (promted by MSM, I’d say) that Canadian soldiers had handed prisoners over to abusive Afghan authorities, contrary to assurances by the Conservative government that no such incident had taken place…” (and PMSH was called a liar, if I remember correctly)
Opposition parties need to click the clues:
1. Noonan was the Government’s witness.
2. PMSH maintained the ‘no torture’ story, after Noonan testimony.
Libs, if PMSH stands up in the House and won’t budge….check your sources.
Read the statement posted by kate, then read CTV web report.They still want to spin it with “well… yeah…but…what about the other 30 that (media and lefties) claim were tortured”…(my paraphrasing)
“They got their press friends to say it for them.”
Provide some proof.
“I’m still waiting for your evidence of Canadian military complicity in war crimes, mistreatement and torture.”
shamrock, WTF is your problem? I ask you AGAIN: show me where I wrote that Canadian soldiers ARE complicit in war crimes.
“Why has this come up now?”
Oh, I don’t know…perhaps it’s because O’Connor was asked about it and he lied, then Day lied and now Harper is trying to deflect attention from these lies by calling anyone who ask questions a “traitor.”
I never said that I speak for the soldiers, but then again, you don’t speak for them either, so what’s your point?
Oh, and I could care less if there is an election called now. We’ll just end up with another minority government.
Exile: My bad…the protagonist in this torture farse was not “Bryant” but “Michael Byers” a former card carying commie from UBC’s Poli-sci cesspool now attached to the BC Dippers .
Everyone: He’s not “Iberia” he’s “lberia”, that is to say Lavrenty Beria, the Soviet secret police chief and mass murderer:
http://www.spartacus.schoolnet.co.uk/RUSberia.htm
Heinrich Himmler’s evil twin. And this malignant person thinks it amusing to sign himself thus. I still await his signing as “hhimmmler”.
Mark
Ottawa
WL Mackenzie Redux: More on Prof. Byers:
toyoufromfailinghands.blogspot.com/2007/05/i-guess-context-doesnt-matter-anymore.html
transmontanus.blogspot.com/2007/05/another-take-on-alibi-room-afstan.html
toyoufromfailinghands.blogspot.com/2007/02/afstan-poop-from-professor-bilge-from.html
Mark
Ottawa
Are you happy now, Mark?
Seems to me that when you’re in a war, if you support the enemy, take their side in argument and defend their statements, that does make you one of them and to call a spade a spade or an enemy and enemy, is just telling it like it is.
Harper says “I can understand that the leader of the Opposition and members of his party feel for Taliban prisoners. I just wish occasionally they’d show the same passion for Canadian soldiers.” That’s right out of the George W. Bush, “You’re either with us or, you’re with the terrorists” play book.
Strange Brew
The media is so fair and balanced they voted to economically harm Israel.
“on 13 April as the UK’s National Union of Journalists (NUJ) voted at its annual meeting for a boycott of Israeli goods as part of a protest against last year’s Lebanon war.”
http://www.honestreporting.com/articles/45884734/critiques/UK_Journalists_Union_Votes_to_Boycott_Israel.asp
I would be curious to hear a legal opinion from someone with the proper expertise on the following questions.
Afganistan is a sovereign country with a legitimate government duely recognized by the international community. Afganistan has the same internal legal powers of control and process that any other country exercises over its citizens and the full and unfettered right to protect itself from individual foreign invaders. Of course subject to any International treaties Afganistan has signed.
Question 1 is can NATO (under a UN mandate) legally detain an Afgan national on Afganistans’ soil and refuse to hand that person over to the legitimate agents of that Afgan government upon request without engaging in the illegal detension (making a legitimate military capture into a civilian kidnapping) of that individual? Can the Geneva Conventions truly be appled by local NATO forces to an Afgan native captured on Afgan territory and in the legal control of their sovereign Afgan Governmental powers? – if there is systematic abuse ( and if Afganistan is signatory to the revelant treaties) surely it needs to be dealt with at a much more senior level i.e. the UN. If NATO were to remove Afgan Taliban or Afgan drug lords or ordinary Afgan criminals from Afganistan territory is this truly not an act of war against Afganistan? An outrage of international treaty and diplomacy?
My question 2 deals with individual foreign fighters captured in Afganistan. These folk by definition are engaged in an act of the most extreme criminal violence against the Afgan people and Government; does not the Afgan government have the legal precedence and priority in the holding and even execution of these invaders? Could a country like Canada lawfully either remove these folk from our ally Afganistan or sequester them on Afgan soil and refuse to hand them on to Afgan authorities on request? With no strings attached? Again with any treaty abuses needing to be dealt with at a much higher level than that available to even NATO Command in Brussels.
What legal precedents came out of Korea where Korean nationals were captured and held by UN Forces vis a vis Synmann Rhees’ government? (and where the control of captured communists was a major ongoing problem that involved hundreds of murders and tortures perpetrated by the Communists themselves against their more docile or POW rules obedient fellow prisoners; and the subsequent attempts by MP’s to reestablish order)
Or other UN actions where the military ( chapters 5 vs 7) operation was on the soil of a legitimate and competent member government?
I am quite curious about this because,
I am no expert.
Robert Albin
Calgary
Pat:
This is not about supporting the enemy; this is about making sure that our soldiers do not get into trouble for following orders from a government that seems to be having difficulty understanding international laws.
…yeah…’cuz those Taliban always respect all the international laws…so there…pfftt…
Our soldiers don’t need you,lberia to be looking out for them. I’d feel a whole lot better if you didn’t claim to be standing up for them.You kind of ‘concern’ is better ignored.
Iberia, Well if the Opps are saying the feds are inviolation of the Geneva Convention(GC), and they are worried that by being inviolation of the GC then they are therefore making the soldiers complicit, does that not mean they are therefore implying that the soldiers are not also inviolation of the GC. Either the Feds have violated the GC and the soldiers have therefore violated the GC or they haven’t. I believe the Nuremberg’s(SP) Trials have already established the fact that following an illegal order is not a defense. They cannot have it both ways here in my opinion.
I love international law. Yes Canada should follow it. Since the Taliban don’t wear recognizable uniforms, are mostly from Pakistan (mercs), violate all international laws in reguards to hostages, prisoners, attacks against non-combatants etc., why then we could hold them for trial, and if found guilty, we can shoot them. Sounds good to me!
Good thinking Iberia lets throw Paul Martin, Bill Graham in jail and await their trial for contravention of the Geneva Convention. The agreement was signed under their authority and every civil servant that briefed PMSH didn’t alert his incoming government that the agreement they had with the Afghans was likely in contravention of the Geneva Convention. I’m sure that Himelfarb will enjoy being on trial at the Hague. After all isn’t he the one who should have pointed out the flaws both to Martin and Harper?
reguards oops regards, spell check thought it was Finnish! I finish now!
Since all the armchair legal experts here feel that the Geneva Convention (or any other international law) doesn’t apply to Afghani detainees, I wonder why the Conservatives aren’t just going ahead with summary executions for all suspected Taliban captives?
Oh, I forgot…it’s the MSM that actually controls government policy.
Actually the Taliban never signed on to the Geneva convention, so it doesn’t apply to them. By the way, rule of law does apply. They are entitled to individual trials. If the courts find them guilty, then we can shoot them. There is legal precedent. But don’t lose heart lberia, you can still enroll in a good laws degree program, hustle your butt over to Afghanistan, and once there, defend them! That way, given your knowledge of the law, we could probably shoot them twice as quickly!
Actually the Taliban never signed on to the Geneva convention, so it doesn’t apply to them. By the way, rule of law does apply. They are entitled to individual trials. If the courts find them guilty, then we can shoot them. There is legal precedent. But don’t lose heart lberia, you can still enroll in a good laws degree program, hustle your butt over to Afghanistan, and once there, defend them! That way, given your knowledge of the law, we could probably shoot them twice as quickly!
Sorry for the double post. Slow uploading.
And speaking of laws:
Alexa (NDP) and Dawn Brown (NDP) have now stated on numerous occasions that our Charter applies to Afghanis. On Friday, Alexa stated that!
So why wasn’t the NDP pushing the rights of Afghani women, when the Taliban were beheading or stoning women because they didn’t follow 10 paces behind their men, or that these women were not escorted by their men, or that these women wore makeup?
So why wasn’t the NDP pushing the rights of Afghani females to get an education?
These left wingers are just disgusting hypocrites!
The Globe is still not reporting facts correctly.
See their article today
http://www.theglobeandmail.com/servlet/story/RTGAM.20070505.wafabuse0505/BNStory/National/home
Note they state that DND release a clarification late Saturday. The DND release the clarification on Friday!
The Globe couldn’t even get this simple fact correct. One just has to go the DND site and read the damn date of the release!
I think our esteemed main stream media should fire every single editor and hire credible people who actually have the skill to report factually.
OTTAWA (CP) […]
“In a statement released late Saturday,”
See comment above at May 5 8:43 PM …-
CP says the statement below was issued Saturday, 5 May. Not so. It was issued Friday, 4 May.
Why did CP use the wrong date of issue? The statement was on the internet hours before CP wrote its story. Blogs had the story out before the MSM.
…-
Statement by Lieutenant-General W.J. Natynczyk, Vice Chief of the Defence Staff
NR–07.030 – May 4, 2007
OTTAWA – Lieutenant-General W.J. Natynczyk, CMM, MSC, CD, Vice Chief of the Defence Staff, issued the following statement today: …-
http://www.forces.gc.ca/site/newsroom/view_news_e.asp?id=2273
TO Red Star says the Statement was released Saturday, 5 May. The Star repeats the CP story.
Blogs used the correct date which is Friday, 4 May. Will CP/MSM correct their stories? Will the CP/MSM issue an apology/correction to Lt-Gen. Natynczyk, the Canadian Armed Forces, and all Canadians?
The devil is in the details. God is also in the details. The war between Good and Evil continues.
…-
Abuse story incorrect: Military
Now says no sign Afghan was abused
May 06, 2007 04:30 AM […]
“Lt.-Gen. Walter Natynczyk, the vice-chief of the defence staff, said yesterday that the way the incident has been portrayed is inaccurate.” […]
Canadian Press
http://www.thestar.com/News/article/210944
Iberia: I wonder why the Conservatives aren’t just going ahead with summary executions for all suspected Taliban captives?
We are out to win hearts and minds. Shooting hearts and blowing out brains tends to be counter-productive. I guess Conservatives are the only ones smart enough to know the difference.
Canada routinely applies the Geneva Convention protections to non-signatories as a matter of national policy. However the government is careful to classify these people into the appropriate grouping. That way Canada can legally hand them over to the “host” governement when we are done with them.
People who think that the Taliban are stupid or simple need to give their head a shake. The Taliban are working Canadians very hard when it comes to the media. They are media savvy, and understand that if the Canadian people lose faith in the mission, then the Taliban can win without firing a shot.
There is no doubt now.
The Canadian MSM has declared war on PM Harper, Gen. Hillier, the Canadian Armed Forces; ergo, all Canadians.
Where do you stand?
We know where the MayDion Liberals stand; we know where Taliban Jack-NDP stands. We know the Muslim Islamist terrorists are watching/waiting for Canada to cut’n’run.
The left-liberals, socialists, and the Canadian MSM are allied with Muslim Islamist terrorists.
Message to PM Harper, General Hillier, et al:
We stand with you. No surrender to the taliban.
…-
A loud warning shot: Weston.
S.S. Harper taking on water: Copps.
Pressure rises on PM over war: Goldstein.
Thanks, Geoff, your post tells it like it is. My hunch is that the vast majority of Canadians think whatever the Taliban get, they deserve. Most of us have little compassion to spare for these totalitarian butchers.
Despite the duplicitous, treasonous MSM, let’s just hope that the Liberals and their allies in the NDP, Bloc, and Green parties are recognized for the cheesy surrender monkeys they are and treated accordingly. Idiots.
Instead of calling the MSM Tokyo Roses, how about Toronto Tali-Tubbies?
I trust everyone has noticed that “lberia” is equally pleased to sign himself “hhimmler”. First and third comments here:
http://www.smalldeadanimals.com/archives/006145.html#c162539
Mark
Ottawa
The Canadian MSM has declared war on PM Harper, Gen. Hillier, the Canadian Armed Forces; ergo, all Canadians.
Exactly, Maz2, with their global village idiots like lberia, who know zip about international law, seeking to escalate a communications snafu, which the Liberals hypocritically exploit, knowing they wrote the policy. Then the press, uncritically accepts everything Libs and Talibanjackdippers say, including their faked timelines. Thus, we have war, against our troops, plain and simple. (MSM refuses to report, properly what actually happened, outlined above – what’s their excuse for this shoddy “journalism”).
Maybe these international law experts can point to other countries that have better standards. BTW lberia, spare us the BS about the Dutch having caveat about access to prisoners, it was unenforceable (Afghan a sovereign nation), and they had no resources available, like Canada.
The stage is set by the Libs, press enablers and morons like lberia. Undermine the military, in the name of supporting the soldiers; imply, or come right out and say are soldiers war criminals; accuse govt of “escalation” for bringing in needed resources, like tanks, to deal with Taliban thugs, many whom are foreign invaders themselves; hamstring operations, indeed put our soldiers at risk, by putting chill of war crimes on them and forcing them to use resources to build Canadian POW camp; VOILA, we are not getting the job done, they argue, while they gleefully wait for new casualty figures to come in.
Of course, Libs, dippers, MSM and our resident troll idiot lberia are for the troops. That’s why they never asked them their opinion (Hillier did and got it in spades). Certainly don’t ask the Afghan people what they want, after all they only elected a government that supported our efforts on their behalf.
Canoe news sets this up as a “news story” on its website. It links to the venomous, hateful screed by Weston. Weston is a vile piece of work; a hater of all things Canadian; a POS.
Weston and his poisoned brain uses the words “killing field”. Where did Weston drag this from?
Here: The socialist-communists Hell on Earth.
Lessons from killing fields of Cambodia – 30 years on |
As the philosopher Santayana warned, ‘Those who cannot remember the past are condemned to repeat it.’
http://www.csmonitor.com/2005/0414/p09s02-coop.html
A loud warning shot
If a federal election were underway today, Afghanistan would almost certainly be a major battleground of the campaign, and could easily become a political killing field for Stephen Harper and the Conservatives. (weston at canoe news)
Thanks for that Maz2. Weston has a bundle of hair on the back of his head. He probably thinks it looks eastern like. He needs to cover it with a cloth wrap to get the real ‘look’ however…
The Killing Fields was about the Viet Nam war if I remember correctly. Mass killing – very ugly – the type of thing Kerry/Fonda permoted and financed to undermine the American soldiers – – from that shameful ‘hippy dippy’ free love and peace era in the 1960s. A ‘spit on a soldier’ to make a cowardly, ungrateful, shameful statement.
There must big clouds of tobacco smoke comming out of the tax payer sponsered, ventilated ‘smoking rooms’ over at CBC today!
“The Killing Fields” (Cambodia)
http://www.amazon.ca/Killing-Fields-Widescreen-Roland-Joff%C3%A9/dp/B00004RF82/ref=pd_bowtega_1/701-9840826-9598762?ie=UTF8&s=dvd&qid=1178493371&sr=1-1
Perhaps lberia, having willingly assumed the identity of hhimmler, will now assume that of ppot.
One might make another expansion of that short version of a name. Commenter suggestions invited.
Mark
Ottawa