Johnathan Ross: A nice post today. As one of the unfortunates who had to live through the NEP, allow me to try and expand a bit on why Albertans in particular are wary of Federal interference in Alberta’s constitutionally-protected resource base.
First, others here have said “they remember stories of suicides.” I don’t remember stories: I remember actual suicides. I knew people who lost their homes (some sold them for $1.00, others simply walked away), I knew couples that declared personal bankruptcy and whose marriages dissolved, and I remember standing in an unemployment line at the Edmonton Northwest UI office, as well as spending the better part of the next year looking for work. I never found any; instead, I went and applied for student loans and went back to post-secondary education (it was either that or starve). What I remember most is that none of the above tragedies were necessitated by some fundamental aspect of the existing economic milieu — they were all precipitated by the divine fiat of an arrogant, vainglorious fool of a Prime Minister with an astonishingly weak understanding of economics and the limits of government intervention. It’s little wonder that there are people out west who would like nothing better than the chance to urinate on PET’s final resting place.
I also remember the blinding speed with which the damage was done — from the announcement to the commencement of the meltdown of Alberta’s economy was only a matter of a few weeks. For some people, unemployment was almost instantaneous — I knew individuals who were terminated by the end of the week of the announcement, and I heard about others who were fired the very next day. Not that it helped their erstwhile employers survive; they too soon went under.
The NEP, for all the damage it did, is not the central issue, however. For many Albertans, the NEP simply represented the truth of the statement “The best guide to future behaviour is past behaviour.” This is almost infallible in areas like the psychology of marketing, and it’s a pretty good guide to other areas of life, too. The NEP represented the latest (and to date, the most profound and successful) attempt to economically rape the residents of Alberta for the benefit of Central Canada. In essence, people killed themselves because Trudeau wanted to deliver gasoline and heating oil to the residents of Ontario and Quebec for a few measly cents less per litre.
If they get the chance, what would the Liberals do next? “The best guide to future behaviour is past behaviour.” Unfortunately, this is a pretty good guide for how Albertans are likely to respond to another NEP-style meddling. Contrary to popular perceptions in Central Canada, most Albertans (and I include myself, a self-declared “reluctant separatist” in this) see themselves as more magnanimous and more patriotic than Centralers, and thus more willing to allow the Feds to interfere if it’s either “good for Canada” or if fighting the Feds would cause undue hardship and suffering for other Canadians, even those we perceive as being profoundly ungrateful for the massive (and per capita, massively disproportionate) economic contributions we’ve made to Confederation.
I have no idea whether this attitude of deference on the part of Albertans is changing, but I do know that we have long memories, and there’s an entire generation of people in Alberta who have much more power and sophistication than a quarter of a century ago (age and experience is actually good for something!). NEP II, in any form whatsoever, would be unlikely to pass muster in the same way that the original ultimately did.
And if you love Canada, that’s not a good thing.
everyone take a deep breath…please, no repeat of the reform party days(I was one of Ontario’s original members)….you guys are falling for the libranos east vs west game….I even see there is now a federal “Alberta Party”….no more vote-splitting, stay united…or this country will rupture….do not give the elitist, latte sipping windbags a wedge issue….take the high road, and let’s fight for a united Canada
Why? Seriously, why should Alberta want to stay in a united Canada? What are the benefits for Alberta that are sufficient to offset the downsides? Remember, as I described above, there’s 18,000,000,000,000 dollars of Albertans’ money on the table.
money issues can be worked out, rupturing a country is permanent…..let’s keep our powder dry, and see how things work out for PMSH…bombardion is not PM yet…if PMSH can entrench property rights in the constitution, future librano thieves will have a much more difficult time with any of their social engineering crap…patience friend, we do have a few strong historical and cultural bonds
What are the benefits for Alberta that are sufficient to offset the downsides?
I think Alberta should be cautious and pro-active on this. Throw up the fire wall around our finances, tell Ottawa to keep their cash and we will keep ours.
If that doesn’t fit into Queerbec’s idea of unity…too friggin bad. Those free loading swine need a lesson in economics.
Vitruvius: Diversification, perhaps? Taxes? These are relatively weak arguments, but worth a shot.
The oil industry will likely keep Alberta going for at least a couple decades…beyond that, it’s hard to say for certain. Advances in technology will undoubtedly come along to significantly lessen the reliance on oil and Alberta will have to rely on other products for their tax base and jobs. Within a united Canada, there is the potential for diversification if and when the need for oil subsides.
Though a separated Alberta would no longer pay federal taxes, the federal taxes that are currently paid would still be collected and then some…Alberta would have to have their own armed forces, monetary unit and central bank, federal bureaucracies, etc and ad nauseum. This would have to be set up quickly and will likely drain the Heritage Fund and increase taxes.
And, where are the bureaucrats going to come from? Eastern Canada, likely…and along with them comes the socialist mindset. Alberta is in desperate need for workers now…with separation, there would be a flood of “immigrants” from Old Canada.
Having said that, I don’t see much that holds Alberta in the short-term…there may be considerations in the long-term, though.
But, spoken as a conservative Ontarian…if you go, can I come with you?
Tomax – the biggest problem with Alberta separatists is they all want to join the US. The dip wads DON’T get it, we want true independence.
It doesn’t matter where statist bureaucrats come from, they bring a socialist mindset. However, Alberta doesn’t need the scale of bureaucracy that Canada seems to have become addicted to. There is more than enough in our current federal taxes to cover the upgrading of our existing provincial systems of justice, &c, and the addition of a small security defense force.
Even though it is likely that over the next several decades advances in technology will reduce human consumption of carbon-based fuel for heating, cooling, lighting, and transportation by over 50%, given that 40% of our production is already used as feed stock for chemicals, plastics, &c, the net reduction in demand, based on technology, will be less than 50%.
Coupled with an order of magnitude increase in demand for such feed stocks in places like India and China, I can’t see how the oil and coal we own will ever be less than extremely valuable. Diversity, too, has become a bit of a non-issue in the globalized world. We now find our diversity among nations, not within Canada.
The only way I can see Canada being saved in the long term is effective divestment of as much federal power as possible to the provinces, and the scrapping of inter-provincial equalization. It is a fatal flaw to take money from people who live in an area where there is a shortage of workers and infrastructure and send it to people where there is no work, thus preventing them from moving to an area where there is a shortage of workers.
Since this thread is probably about to die out for now, I’d like to close with one more matter. It has become abundantly clear to Albertans since the second world war that if we try to play nice with Canada then we will be taken advantage of. We can see clearly that the saber rattling of Quebec gets results for Quebec. Therefore, we either have to leave or not play nice. We have to engage in even more effective saber rattling than Quebec, and now that it’s clear that unlike Quebec, Alberta can actually afford to leave, we have lost our fear of the possibility that our saber rattling might actually produce the effect we are arguing.
Welcome to the twenty-first century, Canada. This isn’t your father’s world any more.
Rob R: Many thanks for a stark reality check…more liberal wankers need to be bitch-slapped back to reality like this…they pump gas into their Geos, shop for food at superstore and dine at Clancy’s and never wonder where the food, fuel and effort to make this possible comes from…they think it is an “entitlement” of the effete public sector class…decandant socialst trash always do….Like the Roman praetorian class they need someone to do the lifting because they are helpless to do it themselves…they are essentially captive consumers but they act like tyrants.
>> Re: Petrcan and Moe Strong….we can’t talk about the disaster of NEP without remembering that PET’s plan to nationalize the Petroleum industry had 2 stages. The first was to have Ottawa unconstitutionally interfer in provincial energy regulation, ruin it economically them pahse 2 was to buy up hurting energy companies for a national oil compay…thus Petrocan was the still-born bastard of MoE and PET. Yes, Stronhg brokered many of the buy outs and ended up skimming patronage cream as Petrocan’s CEO. Petrocan spread the pain we felt with the sacking and looting of Alberta into the wider population. NEP pase 2 pillaged the national treasury. Those still working in Alberta, now payed tax to support a red-ink nationalized oil conglomerate which competed against their employers.
So one of the players that pillaged Alberta in NEP1 is back in the Kyoto taxing cartel that hopes to run NEP2.
Tomax7 and others doubting Alberta’s resolve to not be victimized again…another reality check is in order. What makes you think that we need some redneck outfit like the ASP to accomplish an effective firewall or political insulation from Ottawa raiding?
As lame as he is, you don’t really think Hapless Eddie will allow the type of legisdlating we saw with NEP1. Morton’s firewall proceeds and Kyoto intrusions will step up its pace and resolve.
Will Albertal separate…possibly…crtainly eventually…maybe not as a first option but certainly if it means another NEP-style abusive relationship with Ottawa.
Can we separate? Certainly, we don’t need eastern manufacturing or a Canadian sea port when we have access to both through our southern border. Calgary is alread a North American logidstics hub for transport…and we can broker trade deals directly with our largest customer and keep the brokering fee Ottawa rips us off for. We get to keep federal tranfer money in the province and one less Government and its welfare clients to support will keep the bulk of the GDP in the province.
Alberta independence has no downside except emotionl ties with Canads but these will soon vanish as our independent affluence blooms….and independence can be accomplished by degrees until the plug is finally pulled….no need for FLQ styled separatist fanatics blowing up fed buildings in Edmonton and separation parties going to Ottawa to blackmail for more tranfers…we just slowly and surely move towards political independence as we already have economic independence….and when the time is right we pull the plug on Ottawa.
I have voted as a soft separatist since Gord Kessler got a separatist seat in Olds-Didsbury…I also realize if we are serious about independence, the stage has to set before the referendum is sprung. (Perizeau was correct about boiling lobsters) Slowly and surely the province is moving towards some form of autonomy….if Ottawa gets pushy with some radical intrusive or controlling stunt like NEP2 I think it wouldn’t be hard to get a 60% yes on a separation referendum immediately…even running a referendum would be the death knell of the federal party that caused it….the soft core separatist base is about 60-70% now…all that needs to kick it the final leg is a spark.
Dion et al have to realize they have NO FRIENDS in Alberta…none with any money or influence who will support their unity cause if they want to play the tough love fedralist game…we pay polite tolerance to it…but if we are slapped again, industry and the political main stream will not take sides with Ottawa.
Eeyore. I for one would more than welcome any conservative Ontarians to the NEW Alberta or western Canada whichever it may be. As I have said if we from a new republic that all but eliminates social programs for the lazy we could dramatically lower taxes. In doing so we would be rid of the socialists and would attract people who are willing to be productive and live a free life. You could watch whatever channels you wanted without getting government approval etc
It is probably time for Albertans to begin supporting the provincial party that they feel is best going to work for them as well as for Alberta/The West.
I doubt that what Alberta needs is a new party – there are a number already existing with viable charters and it strikes me that they cover pretty much the political spectrum. In the event that a new party emerges, it may well be one that is much more aligned with the federal liberal agenda – regardless of whatever the party is labeled.
The Alberta Party is a different one than the Separatist Party of Alberta. The agenda of the latter is separatism – full stop. The AP currently has a mission statement of an Alberta First Agenda and supports the “firewall” kinds of things that Morton/others talks about.
It is rather unlikely that these two parties will end up as a unified option for voters because their mission statements are not the same. Both parties are very small these days – but have a real opportunity for growth.
If the Stelmach government does not become a much stronger voice for Alberta within confederation – the provincial conservative party may just implode by the time of the next election. It is a stretch, but it is not as far out as more than a few may think.
Just read an interesting comment on another site – this from a self-professed provincial conservative.
In terms of voting federally – a person has a choice to vote red, green, liberal or pack up and go home.
This may be shared by more than a few people in AB
Vitruvius et al: I implore that you give Canada just ONE MORE ELECTION…it shouldn’t be more than a year away, so hopefully you can hold out until then.
The Liberals are potentially trying to “divide and conquer”…split the Alberta vote between Conservatives and other separatist parties like in the Reform days.
If Alberta leaves, the Canadian economy and its nationhood status will be devestated. Don’t do this without giving Canada one last chance…draw a line in the sand and say this is it, no more. But give us this last chance. Hell, if the Liberals win the next election, I’ll help you pack.
Perhaps a more productive and efficient move would be to FORCE QUEBEC TO LEAVE the confederation…wouldn’t this in itself do almost as much good as Alberta separating? This is something that I think a good many people across all of Canada could get behind.
I certainly plan to still be Canadian as of the next election, Eeyore. As I wrote above at 7:38 pm yesterday, I am hoping that over the next ten years Prime Minister Harper can shepherd in some structural changes to the government of Canada that can keep Alberta on side, and I think that’s what he’s trying to do.
It’s just that considering the actual changes on the ground over the last fifty years, I think we’re now getting into the do or die time frame. If Quebec, via Ottawa, doesn’t get their hands off our business, within the next ten years, then we are going to sever our connection to said hands.
Meanwhile, we are going to start ramping up. Watch for public opinion and various firewall operations to gear up in preparation for handling whatever eventuates.
As long as Albertans have a pathological fear of confrontation nothing will change. It is part of the culture here to be meek and never complain. Bad service at McDonalds? Wait in line… Ripped off by a mechanic? Whip out the Visa Card… This province is populated by laid back people and the Easterners take advantage of our good nature and laugh at us naive, unsophisticated country bumpkins…
Albertans need some American style gumption and chutzpah… I know thats not the polite country way, but this is our province we are here to defend…
There are no rules in love and war after all…
The last federal election WAS “the last chance” for a whole lot of us. I guess it depends on a persons age as to how many chances are reasonable. For those of us in “that certain age & plus” – these last chances have been going on for just to long.
If it isn’t clear by now that central Canada will do whatever it takes to maintain political/cultural/social/financial control of all things federal (and by extension, provincial) – I can’t imagine what more it will take.
AB will most likely vote Conservative federally – regardless of what happens after the next federal election. At this point, I could care less what happens federally – there is not much point even running federally any more unless one is fluently bilingual.
The Reform Party had its “go” federally, it failed and is not likely to rise from the ashes. No western based party is going to succeed federally & nobody is interested in perpetually running for an opposition slot. The power is at the provincial level now and that is where I, for one, will be focusing.
Premier Stelmach just finished an interview with Dave Rutherford on the morning show and appeared not much more than milk toast. Not at all strong and this is not good.
Another benefit of Alberta-unions are not liked here.
The premiers of Que and Ont better pay attention to the unrest out here, and quit asking (demanding) for our money.
They could balance their books if they got rid of all the social programs.
I would love for the Harper govt to put some controls on how equalization pymts can be used. Not one cent for daycare, or any other social program.
Do your part, stay away from Toronto, cdns are killed on the streets there, and it is dangerous. I think more cdns have been killed in Toronto than Mexico.
I don’t want a divisive east-west debate either. That being said, central Canadians need to understand their vote for Liberals is a strong signal to Western Canada. When Oil Sands are targetted with nary a word about Ont industry and Que hydroelectricity, it is clear in this part of Canada that Dion wants our “easy money.” When you couple that quote with Holland’s obvious remarks, then consider that the MSM has said not word one, what other conclusion is possible?
Ontario and Quebec voters, please don’t fall for Mr Dion’s uninformed and divisive rhetoric. There will be fallout, make no mistake.
Let’s lose the anti-Quebec rhetoric of course. In fact leave alone Dion’s language handicap and French citizenship, let him hang himself on that, along with Garth the hypocrite. If the MSM won’t challenge Dion’s doublespeak, we will have to do it. Fight for Canada, we are worth it.
Given that it’s typically leftists who enjoy welfare and other money for nothing schemes, I reckon Alberta’s going to have to be careful about liberal/leftist leeches sliming their way on to the employment line.
Wouldn’t want to see the Conservative political solidarity watered down.
There are already a couple of loudmouth leftist bloggers based in Alberta.
I think that if Quebec would hurry up and get the hell out, Liberals would become a rump party with Toronto as their base and the Conservative party would enjoy a majority for a very long time.
Otherwise, I agree Alberta should separate. Why finance leftist policies with Alberta’s money? Starve the scumbags.
We Albertans, first, canadian second, have to work to insist that our provincial government gets some guts. We have to insist on plans that will be put into effect at the first sign of nep 11. The first thing we could do is file our tax return but not remit any balance do till the last minute, and then in small amounts. It is usually Oct when they start sending out notices to pay up.
We could be late submitting GST returns, unless a refund is coming. Penalty isn’t that great to be late sending in payroll taxes.
All this to be started immediately upon the election of dion as PM. Don’t buy any food product manufactured in Ont or Que. There are many local alberta products on the market. If you need a new car, buy foreign. Support your local mechanic, plumber, restaurant, instead the chains. If just a few hundred thousand albertans started a boycott of all things from the GTA and Que. listen to the cries. It might even make the cbc. Build that firewall, starting the day after GTA and Que tell us to go to hell by electing dion.
I suspect that Maryjane has never lived or worked in Alberta. I further suspect that she has no relatives or close friends who lived in Alberta during the years of the NEP. She is therefore talking from a position of ignorance, as is unfortunately the case with the vast majority of Central Canadians I know who have never lived, let alone visited, the Prairie Provinces (except perhaps to ski/quasi work in Banff).
Since returning to Ontario, I have had many political discussions with those who have lived here their entire lives and I’m sorry to say, many just can’t get it, no matter how hard I try to provide a Western prospective on politics in Canada. Many simply cannot understand why it is that Alberta, in particular, continues to vote Conservative when voting Liberal (the natural governing party) would make so much more sense. Sense, that is, if Albertans truly want to have access to the reins of power and not just remain a bunch of whiners. Because such people have never left the comfort zone of Central Canada, they have no other frame of reference and they cannot understand why it is that what has been good for them, isn’t equally good for others. They do not understand that even if the whole of Western Canada rented their souls and sold out their values by electing a Liberal slate, they still would have little influence.
The sad fact is that Canadians as a whole know diddly squat about regional differences in their own country. It is this ignorance that allows the Liberals to practice the politics of divide and conquer and fear mongering.
I told my husband prior to the last federal election that if the Liberals won, I’d be willing to pack up the house and the kids and high tail it back to Alberta, as a separatist. I love Ontario. My family is here. But, I could not, would not live with another Liberal government ruling this wonderful country, with an eye turned only to vote rich Ontario and Quebec, as opposed that which would enact policies in the interests of all Canadians.
Electing Dion and his cohorts would be a disaster for Canada.
First off i have no respect for someone who chooses to end their life, regardless of the circumstance, they were cowards and nothing more.
I also find it funny how there was no mention of OPEC in all the name calling and fear-mongering going on. My question to all you who feel that the NEP was nothing more then a Trudeau plot to steal all the oil in alberta is – What would have happened in Alberta if no NEP was introduce, do you think that Alberta would have just continued as usual?
Also for those who wish to see Alberta separate, have fun dreaming, it will never happen. And it’s pretty simple why it won’t – it’s called the North American Union and it is coming.
And to all you people that have to call people names and lie and distort information, i feel pity for you because you have no concept of why you are here and what you are.
Texas and Alberta , similar in size and mineral resources.
Texas GNP and Canada GNP similar in size.
I think that pretty much shows the effect of enterprize vrs. interferance.
Thanks, Aaron, but it’s been adequately shown above that the NEP precipitated the decline of Alberta. Reality isn’t about what could’ve happened, it’s about what did happen.
The finance minister is asking for input from cdns re the coming budget. Send your thoughts to
http://www.finn.gc.ca.
How many will say, cut the cbc and transfer pymts to que.
Hope they post the replies.
Why would Alberta have to have an armed services? I think that they should, but Iceland doesn’t have one, and they get along fine. Much of Western Europe have small armed services.
If Alberta did maintain an armed services corp (a part of NATO, to function within NATO), I’d expect it to be no larger than 2% of the population. Alberta could afford that.
Fact is, Alberta comes out ahead financially if it leaves Canada. I remember my uncle losing work from the NEP, and never recovering. If anything like that rears its head, Alberta SHOULD leave Canada, if for no other reason than the interests of Albertans.
…just to entertain Ural, I’ll continue my yapping.
Alberta going it alone? Who will lead us? Who will stand up for justice?
One instance: Ward 10 election in Calgary. No one got jailed (so to speak) and add insult to injury, us taxpayers were forced to foot most of the legal bills – from both sides.
Do I really want this type of folk in charge of my new country? Bad enough Liberals were corrupt with money, but they did it democratically – as in voted in.
Yeah, North America Union. Naw, then we’ll start complaining about the Democrats.
But I agree, it is time to bid Quebec, adieu.
Alberta & either Armed Forces or RCMP. Check the stats. Who makes up (disproportionately) the team? Prairies.
This is a no-brainer.
Tomax7: Carry on. I suspect you are a wolf in sheep’s clothing, and have no real grasp of the situation. My parents, diehard royalists & Canadians, are prepared to vote for separation, should circumstances warrant it (i.e. a Liberal gov’t in place with no effective firewalls). They are in their 70s.
Carry on preaching a Quebec-like approach, but don’t come crying when you wake up, one morning, to discover a referendum has come & gone when you weren’t looking.
Review AB politics for a hint. We don’t dick around. Here today, history tomorrow. Just like that.
Having my whole family come from out west, I’ll be the last to defend the NEP.
However, unless Montreal has moved between 1982 and now, Trudeau and Lalond and the rest of the NEP cabel are Quebecors. Quebec is not part of Ontario. The responsibility for the NEP is on the Quebecors in the Liberal party who thought it up and implimented it.
Also note the Yanks went into a bad recession before Canada did (they had Peanut Jimmy wrecking their economy which killed the place before Regan could come along and fix it,) that interest rates and inflation skyrocketed before the NEP and the economy would have taken a sh** kicking regardless of the NEP. The NEP just made it go from bad to worse.
So, the NEP was bad, but not responsible for the entirety of the recessions. Most of that was due to inflation caused by OPEC and the insane expansion of government deficit spending (in Canada, you can blame Truedau and his liberals from Montreal for that, too.)
Ontario is weak and takes the path of least resistance. It votes by default for the “safest” choice on the ballot. There isn’t and never has been any plots in Ontario to rape the rest of the country – quite the contrary, Ontario sends billions a year to the rest of the country (which equates to a few scraps to the MN, SK, and the East and huge drollops of cash to Montreal and the frogs.)
If you want to improve Canada, get rid of Quebec.
If anyone doubts the depth of anger in Alberta, check the comments in this blog and in Coyne’s blog just immediately prior to the last federal election; count how many times you see a phrase from an Albertan that reads similar to “If those Liberals win again I’m voting for a separatist party”.
Alberta separation is a sleeping giant, and Dion and Holland are poking it with a stick.